Loading summary
Transcript136 lines
- [00:00]
Michael Wolff
The no forever wars president now in a forever war, he's stuck. He can retreat. He can admit defeat, which also he doesn't want to do. So he's yelling at people, solve the problem. There must be something we can do. What can we do? Do it. Donald Trump is the Hormuz president. Hormuz hangs around his neck. The one thing that they should have foreseen, that was foreseen, he ignored. And that was the key vulnerability in this war. And it bit him in the ass.
- [00:45]
Joanna Coles
Michael, Joanna. Michael Wolff, author of four books on Trump. For anybody new joining us. Cause we tend to forget to introduce ourselves. And I'm Joanna Coles of the Daily Beast. Michael, do we have anything.
- [01:00]
Michael Wolff
And many other, many other books which I, you know, I'm this Trump sort of cancels out everything else. But let me stand by my other books, which have nothing to do with Donald Trump fair.
- [01:12]
Joanna Coles
Although two of them are books about Murdoch, which has a lot to do with Donald Trump.
- [01:17]
Michael Wolff
But I did not know that at the time, at least for one of them.
- [01:20]
Joanna Coles
Okay.
- [01:21]
Michael Wolff
Nor did Murdoch know that at the time.
- [01:24]
Joanna Coles
So just before we get cracking, Michael, I want to remind people we're independent media. The reason that we can have these conversations, which frequently go off the rails and where we both end up probably yelling at each other just as much as Donald Trump yells at his people is because we are independent. We appreciate your support. Please subscribe to the Daily Beast and you can get all sorts of tiers of membership and press the subscription button wherever you get your podcasts. So, of course, today, how could we avoid talking about President Zelensky and Benjamin Netanyahu in for Lindsey Graham's funeral, the yelling that's going on in the White House, Anthony Fauci up in front of Congress, and who's more anti vax? Here's a question for you. Which we get to who's more anti vax? Donald Trump or RFK Jr. And of course, is Todd Blanche going to get confirmed as attorney general? All on our agenda today. This is the beginning of, or perhaps not the beginning, but the end of the beginning of the downfall of Trump. I think it's 96 days to go until the midterms.
- [02:39]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I mean, I think. And this is part of I've been trying to track this in a substack column that I'm writing called Downfall, which echoes back, shall I say, to a very, very good book about the last days of Adolf Hitler and a very good film. Yes. But yeah, no, and I think that there's this interesting moment that we've had, we got through this first year of Donald Trump, which was all him taking control, him exerting dominance, him seizing things, marching ahead in the way that we have almost never seen in American politics. Everyone was, to say the least, rocked back. And this new book by the New
- [03:43]
Joanna Coles
York Times authors Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, regime Change.
- [03:49]
Michael Wolff
It's interesting because it takes the view this is the most powerful presidency in the modern history of the presidency, or perhaps in the history of the presidency. And that's wrong. I mean, it's what happens sometimes with books because they take a long time between being completed and being published. And in that time, what we have seen is clearly Donald Trump in trouble. Donald Trump coming up against a whole list of his policy initiatives that at the time were staggering, that he was making these kind of claims, putting ICE agents in the streets of American cities, but which have now come back to bite him in the ass. And I think actually, you can probably go through the list of key Trump second Trump administration policy initiatives and find that they all have backfired on him.
- [04:59]
Joanna Coles
Well, there were two human reminders of this at Lindsey Graham's funeral on Tuesday. President Zelensky and B.B. netanyahu, who could not exemplify more to colossal, catastrophic mistakes that Trump has made. One, backing Russia in the Ukraine Russia war, and the other, of course, taking Netanyahu's advice to bomb Iran.
- [05:31]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, and I think that just summarizes the two most glaring instances of Trump's incompetence in managing foreign policy. And this shouldn't be a surprise. I mean, a man had hardly ever been abroad before he became the president, had shown no interest at all, has no background at all, and then went on to fire almost everybody who knew anything about foreign policy. And it has been all utterly instinctual. Actually, we had a discussion last week about his. The pillar of Trump's really intellectual view of the world is a man by the name of Lou Dobbs.
- [06:27]
Joanna Coles
That's right, the former CNN Financial and then Fox Financial correspondent who believed in, who led him down the tariff lane, another rank dummy.
- [06:37]
Michael Wolff
I mean, a guy who only was whatever he thought was led by ratings, which is television ratings. And what Trump believes is also, of course, led by television ratings. But the result of that is, of course, he came in pronouncing he was going to solve the Ukraine problem overnight. Well, he did not. But more importantly, his view of the Russian Ukraine situation was that Russia would certainly absolutely win. Remember, he said to Zelensky in the Oval Office, you hold no cars. Well, it turns out very clearly Zelensky held all of the important cards. And now the situation is Russia at a continual disadvantage, an increasing disadvantage, and Ukraine kind of shocking to everyone at a continual, a continual march forward. And not only that, but Ukraine has become the pivotal, the pivotal piece in understanding the whole new nature of modern warfare. So Trump could not have gotten this more, more wrong. You know, he just, it's, it's, it's. And it's beyond just a, a, an analytic mistake. It's just DoP.
- [08:18]
Joanna Coles
If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to make it happen. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one, including the moment your first customer is ready to pay. Shopify checkout helps more of them finish their purchase. And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business. And Shopify gives you the tools to do it. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to small businesses just getting started with Shopify. Nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.com dailybeast that's shopify.com dailybeast Once again, go to shopify.com dailybeast well, and you think back to that terrible meeting in the white house where J.D. vance leans across the sofa and sort of pins Zelensky to the chair with a sort of verbal assault on say thank you. You haven't said thank you. And of course, now the Americans are going to the Ukrainians asking for help, understanding, as you say, the new frontier of warfare, which is drones.
- [09:42]
Michael Wolff
And then we move on to, obviously, Bibi Netanyahu. And again, Trump's point of departure is, I am the best friend Israel has ever had. And the corollary to that is that Israel is the best friend I have ever had. And together we represent a pillar of foreign policy and a pillar of electoral policy within the Republican Party. Well, all that has fallen apart. Bibi Netanyahu is the chief reason we have gone to war in Iran, in a war that was supposed to last three or four weeks and is now in its sixth month. And also in that time, what we have seen is that the support for Israel has crumbled across almost in a bipartisan fashion. And it is a problem within the Republic. It's certainly a problem within the Democratic Party, which we should discuss, because it's a Key problem, but it's also a problem within the Republican Party. So these guys showing up at the White House is like. I mean, it is its own sort of white flag.
- [11:11]
Joanna Coles
The White House sending out the white flag with Netanyahu's visit. Interesting. Well, and of course, all this happening against the backdrop of Lindsey Graham's funeral. I want to draw people's attention to your substack, actually, which just dropped this morning, and the headline is, Lindsey Graham in hell. Death can be a great PR move. Little more than two weeks ago, Lindsey Graham was a clown and an embarrassment for his abject sucking up to Donald Trump. Two weeks later, with the only difference being him having shuffled off this mortal coil. He's a saint. And then you go into something. We touched on that when we talked about Lindsey Graham on Saturday, and we will come on to talk about Darlene in a moment. But what you say, you add something here which we hadn't discussed on Saturday. Lindsey Graham was playing both sides. He was hurt by the general narrative that he had become a lackey. And he wanted you to understand that he was running a much more sophisticated game than that. You want to be the last, last person in Trump's ear. Lindsay told me, saying the same thing that almost everyone who talks to Trump says. But, of course, that idea that he was the guy that also, along with Bibi Netanyahu, had really encouraged Trump to bomb the hell out of Iran. And we have now footage that has surfaced. It surfaced in the Wall Street Journal of a documentarian that's been making a documentary about Lindsey Graham. And we've got some of the unedited footage here, which we're going to play for you. Some of you may have seen it. It's been on the Internet this week. But it's very revelatory about both Lindsey Graham and, of course, Trump's decision to do this. And the clip we're going to play, it was shot in February as the bombing was beginning. I talked to Trump.
- [13:05]
Ryan Reynolds
It's Boy.
- [13:06]
Jack Holder
Boy. He's Jack. It's the best thing I've ever done. He loves blowing stuff up. So, you know, there are a lot of people inside didn't want to do it. So I had my challenges. But President Trump, when he gets into the zone, he listens, asks good questions, you know, no tweeting. He has done nothing. He hadn't tweeted much at all. No drama. He's been a great wartime president. I said last night that Trump and Beebe are like Roosevelt and Churchill. I mean, they're the right Two guys to confront this evil.
- [13:47]
Joanna Coles
They're like Roosevelt and Churchill. Trump's a great wartime president. I mean, it's too bad that he died and didn't get to face this documentary, which I hope is being put together as fast as possible by Alex holder, the director. Mr. Holder, get on with it. But could you have a worse hostage to fortune?
- [14:09]
Michael Wolff
No. And let's just go over where we are right now in the sixth month of this war, the. No forever wars President now in a forever war. And he has been told quite explicitly, and I think that there was a recent, maybe an NBC News report about this, that with Trump yelling essentially to aids, do something, solve this problem. What do we do here? We need to do something. It's your fault. Because he has been told over and over again, because there's nothing really left to tell him that, that we have exhausted all military solutions. A, we are running out of missiles and we will run out of missiles if this, if we keep up, if we keep up the pace, plus that there is effectively nothing left to bomb. So we have done everything an air campaign can do that there is nowhere to go. There is nothing more we can do except to invade, to put, to put troops on the ground, which is a non starter of a, of a strategy for, for Trump that would really, that would finish him off. So therefore we have done everything we can to wage a war against the Iranians. And, and it, it hasn't. There's nowhere else to go. And the Iranians have not only not been defeated, but they actually continue to be a robust, a really fast enemy. He's stuck. He's stuck. He can't do anything. This is, I mean, he can retreat, he can admit defeat, which also he doesn't want to do. So he's yelling at people, solve the problem. There must be something we can do. What can we do? Do it.
- [16:15]
Joanna Coles
But if he retreats and even if he claims victory and says it's all marvelous, the Iranians still control now the Strait of Hormuz, something they didn't even think they would be able to do.
- [16:28]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, it is the war of Hormuz. Donald Trump is the Hormuz president. Hormuz hangs around his neck. The one thing that they should have foreseen, that was foreseen, he ignored. And that was the key vulnerability in this war. And it bit him in the ass.
- [16:55]
Joanna Coles
Well, I'm sure it's also going to bite Darlene Graham in the ass. On Tuesday, you said we were noting Trump's support for Darlene, who of course was Lindsey Graham's much younger sister. He adopted her after their parents died. She's now decided that not only does she want to represent him up until January, but she's also going to run in a proper election for his Senate seat. Trump has endorsed her, but the people of South Carolina turn out to be independent and they're saying not so fast.
- [17:37]
Michael Wolff
And as we noted the other day, that he has endorsed her. But, you know, Donald Trump's endorsements don't necessarily stick. If the wind is blowing in the opposite direction, which it appears to be, it is very likely that he will, he will retreat from this endorsement.
- [17:58]
Joanna Coles
Right. Well, and what C.J. westphal, who is the chairman of the Dorchester County Republican Party, has said is people are going to be independently minded in this. And I don't think that Trump is the end all, be all that he used to be. So I'm pretty sure that Mr. Westfall, or Ms. Westfall, I shouldn't assume it's a man, might get a call from the White House.
- [18:23]
Michael Wolff
What will technically happen is that there is within two weeks, I think, a primary, but there are quite a number of candidates. It's likely that she will probably come out on top, but not with 50%. So then there will be a runoff. In a runoff. It is also likely that she won't prevail. That there is enough annoyance with Donald Trump for stepping into this, for her presumption without any experience to run in this race. And the reason, and let's be clear about the reason why she is running. She was appointed. Her appointment to fill out the remainder of Lindsey Graham's of her brother's term was a courtesy appointment. It happens before. There's no real logic to why it should happen except a courtesy. It's usually a wife. Lindsey Graham, who was gay, doesn't have a wife or a husband or he was actually in the closet. So it was his sister who got the courtesy nod. And then it was Donald Trump who convinced her she should run. Donald Trump gets into these enthusiasms in that little clip that we ran, Lindsey Graham refers to it as the zone. And I think he suddenly saw this as a great story. She would be his candidate. She would be his. He would run her like he ran Lindsey Graham. And this would be a feel good story. And then the people of South Carolina, the Republicans of South Carolina said, hey, what the fuck? What about us? And that's what we will see playing out in the South Carolina Republican primary. Donald Trump will be handed his for something said, I don't know.
- [20:33]
Joanna Coles
Well, and we shouldn't forget that he did an endorsement for the primary in the primaries for the Republicans for governor. And when it became clear that his candidate, Pam Yvette, who was the lieutenant governor or lieutenant governor, as you guys say, wasn't going to clearly wasn't going to win, he then co endorsed her opponent, the attorney general, Alan Wilson. So he's just floating around looking for winners. And as you said on Tuesday, for now he supports Darlene Graham. But the minute it looks like Darlene Graham may not win and there are I think 13 candidates as we're recording this who are up against her, including the former governor Mark Sanford, who was a popular governor running Trump may well either co endorse or just forget all about it. We called the White House to see if he was planning to go down and campaign in South Carolina for Darlene Graham and we got no response, which I suspect means he might rush down there at the last minute when he figured out who's gonna likely win. But nonetheless, so.
- [21:48]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch upfront payment
- [22:10]
Joanna Coles
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow and network is busy. See terms lots of attention obviously at the funeral. Did you watch any of the funeral?
- [22:25]
Michael Wolff
I did.
- [22:26]
Joanna Coles
What did you think of Sean? Sean Hannity's I felt like we should start giving out weekly awards for the biggest suckuppery of the week. And Sean Hannity saying that he thought Lindsey Graham would be the mar a lago in the sky, you know, was about as good as it gets in terms of suck uppery. He couldn't have been more slavery.
- [22:49]
Michael Wolff
And then that was a double suck uppery because Rupert Murdoch, who is Sean Hannity's boss, was actually a Lindsey Graham fan, not a Donald Trump fan, but a Lindsey Graham fan because that's an old, you know, essentially Lindsay was the last of the neocons and actually Murdoch is among the last of the ne
- [23:14]
Joanna Coles
neogarth, very much among the last. How old? I mean, and of course he's outlasted Lindsey Graham by 24 years. By 24 years, that's how much older Rupert Murdoch was. Right? Lindsey Graham was 71. Isn't Murdoch 95?
- [23:28]
Michael Wolff
Yes. No, I was just trying to think as he's. I was thinking, oh, my God, Lindsey Graham died 24 years ago. And somehow. But yes, I get your movie.
- [23:38]
Joanna Coles
You get my point. You get my point. Well, actually, we should just say, even though Sean Hannity was doing his best to lick the entire of Donald Trump as if he were an ice cream cone, Trump kept drifting off to sleep in it. And when he was doing his own eulogy for Lindsey Graham, he clearly kept forgetting whose funeral he was at, because he kept saying, that person. That person. And pointing at the coffin as if he couldn't quite orient himself. He was drifting and out of sleep. You could see at one point Marco Rubio looking really concerned as Trump was sort of nodding. Then he jerked himself awake, as one does a little bit on a plane. You know that thing when you go to sleep on a plane and you're in a kind of a sort of middle row and your head begins to drift and then you suddenly jerk up. He was doing a lot of that, but he also couldn't remember clearly who Lindsey Graham was at a certain point. And then there was the perfect tap on the coffin as he walked past.
- [24:40]
Michael Wolff
There was also another moment which I think reflected on this moment with Bibi and Zelensky in the White House, in which Trump pointed out that there had never been a war that Lindsey Graham didn't like. And I think that he must have a little kind of God, another guy who got me into this mess.
- [25:04]
Joanna Coles
So another guy who's in a mess, Anthony Fauci.
- [25:08]
Michael Wolff
Before we get, let's just spend a second on Sean Hannity because I never like to let him off the hook, because if Lindsey Graham was among the chiefs sucking up pillars to the Trump administration, Sean Hannity has got to be the chief. I mean, and this has gone on for to administrations. And a really interesting historical note that a broadcaster, theoretically a news broadcaster, is himself one of the most important advisors to the President of the United States. Donald Trump listens. One of the few people he actually genuinely listens to is Sean Hannity. Why does he listen to Sean Hannity but Sean Hannity gets ratings?
- [26:01]
Joanna Coles
Can you. For people who haven't read your book the fool, it starts with the funeral of Roger Ailes. And I am going to get you to just recount going down to the funeral on Sean Hannity's plane.
- [26:18]
Michael Wolff
It's interesting how you've You've conflated several deaths here. Actually, the fall starts with an obituary. I wrote, a theoretical obituary of Rupert Murdoch, who is of course not yet dead, but ought to be. But then also there is the funeral of Roger Ailes, which I attended in 2017. It was in Palm beach. And I flew down to this funeral on Sean Hannity's plane with Sean Hannity and a handful of other people from Fox News, including Kimberly Guilfoyle, who my wife, who was with me, pointed out was not wearing underpants for the funeral.
- [27:20]
Joanna Coles
How do we know that she wasn't wearing. Was it a Basic Instinct moment or was it.
- [27:25]
Michael Wolff
It was for. Yes, for my wife, from where my wife sat. A Basic Instinct moment.
- [27:32]
Jack Holder
Yes.
- [27:33]
Joanna Coles
Wow.
- [27:33]
Michael Wolff
And remember Kimberly Guilfoyle? They sent her off to. Well, they sent her off to Greece, so we don't hear much about her. But remember those shrieks, her Shrieking at the 2024 convention, the RNC, the best
- [27:54]
Joanna Coles
is yet to come. She was saying she is one of the few ambassadorial appointments that they've managed to fill. That and of course, Charles Kushner in Paris. The other detail I remember from the book is that Sean Hannity didn't want to give Laura Ingraham. I think it was Laura Ingraham. Or was it Ann Coulter? I always get them confused.
- [28:14]
Michael Wolff
No, no, no, it was Laura.
- [28:15]
Joanna Coles
It was Laura Ingraham. He didn't want to give her a lift back on his plane because she was drunk.
- [28:23]
Michael Wolff
Got stinking drunk. Yes. And he kept saying, do you know how small those planes are? Somebody throws up in those bathrooms. Oh, my God. Okay, so she didn't get a ride back.
- [28:35]
Joanna Coles
She didn't get a ride back. Sorry about that. Laura, though she was very visible at the Fauci hearings, the Daily show did a very good takedown of her. Cause she is always complaining about people taking selfies of themselves at congressional hearings and select committees. And of course, she was doing exactly the same at Anthony Fauci's hearing this week. Did you see any of it?
- [28:59]
Michael Wolff
Yes, well, I saw there wasn't too much to see since he wasn't answering any questions. But I did see quite a bit of people projecting. Well, you could project anything onto him because he was a blank slate.
- [29:15]
Joanna Coles
He was a blank slate. But he's got hoist by his own
- [29:18]
Michael Wolff
diary petard, as let me rush to say, we all would.
- [29:23]
Joanna Coles
Oh, by ours, sure. And our emails.
- [29:26]
Michael Wolff
Not by his, but by ours.
- [29:28]
Joanna Coles
Right. Do you appear in his diary? Probably not.
- [29:31]
Michael Wolff
I do not.
- [29:33]
Joanna Coles
Why do people. Why do people keep I don't know
- [29:38]
Michael Wolff
if I keep diaries, actually. Do you.
- [29:41]
Joanna Coles
Do you keep a diary? Do you keep a diary?
- [29:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, when you're a writer, effectively, you do, even if you don't, because you're always noting. I don't keep a formal diary, but my life is an endless bit of note taking.
- [30:00]
Joanna Coles
But do you have a space where you write personal notes?
- [30:07]
Michael Wolff
What does that exactly mean, a space? You mean a digital space?
- [30:11]
Joanna Coles
Well, you could write it on a digital space. You could write it in a. In a notebook.
- [30:20]
Michael Wolff
Every space that I have has a note that I have written to remember, something which I will in all likelihood forget anyway.
- [30:30]
Joanna Coles
But I was reminded from this book, From Mistakes to Meaning. There is a very. I mean, there's such a cautionary tale
- [30:39]
Michael Wolff
in it, which is, what is Mistakes?
- [30:41]
Joanna Coles
Well, from Mistakes to Meaning is a book written by Michael Linton and Joshua Steiner. We actually did a podcast with them earlier this year when it came out, and it's about mistakes that people make. And Josh Steiner is working for the Clintons at the time, keeps a personal diary. And having told investigators into Whitewater, somewhat proudly, that he keeps a diary, they immediately demand to see it. And instead of burning it or saying he can't find it or whatever, he produces the diary, which then is used in evidence against his boss. He then goes in front of a select committee and has to deny that what he wrote in his personal diary was actually true. He said, oh, well, it was just sort of ramblings. It wasn't entirely accurate. You know, it was my first observations. And so he ends up reading about himself on the front page of the New York Times as the young. As the Young Turk in. In the White House, who's denying his own diary. And I couldn't help thinking when I read it, why on earth did you tell people that you'd written these personal notes? Cause they are, in fact, you know, a diary is a conversation with yourself that nobody else should see. I think Fauci's problem was he kept his diary, much of which appears very personal, on government computers and things.
- [32:05]
Michael Wolff
You haven't read that book because it's not readable.
- [32:08]
Joanna Coles
I have read the book.
- [32:09]
Michael Wolff
You skim. You went over it. You didn't read it wrong.
- [32:13]
Joanna Coles
I did because I have an essay in the book about mistake I made, which is why I like the book, because it's one of those books that actually, if you read it, you learn. Don't put anything in email, never write a personal diary, and have more children. My mistake was I should have had more children. Whatever.
- [32:27]
Michael Wolff
Just to go back, another point we have made many times, but a point always worth coming back to, cause it explains so much, is that Donald Trump survives because he doesn't put things in email, because he doesn't write things down, because he's in illiterate. So it is.
- [32:47]
Joanna Coles
But is he illiterate? Because it seemed very clear that he was reading from the teleprompter at Lindsey Graham's funeral. I know everybody says, oh, he can't read, he can't read. But he seemed to be reading from the teleprompter, though. He clearly went off at one point and said, let's face it, not everybody liked this guy, okay? Not everybody liked him. Which is exactly why people like Donald Trump. Because he knows that someone's written this thing for him. He's never read it before. He gets up there and he's thinking to himself, this is just sort of banal nonsense. I'm going to say the truth.
- [33:21]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No. Well, this is an interesting question, and it's actually a question for history. The nature of Donald Trump's mind,
- [33:32]
Ryan Reynolds
where
- [33:32]
Michael Wolff
we go so often, but the nature of his intellect, too. So does he read or does he not read? And in the, in the first administration, in the early months, when most of the people in the White House really had little familiarity with Donald Trump, I mean, they hadn't worked with him before, they weren't his friends, they were all just kind of recruited on the spot. And that became a question within the staff. What was his reading level? Because he didn't read, you didn't know what to give him, how much you should give him, how much you should summarize it. Nobody knew. And then the question was, maybe he doesn't know how to read, or maybe he is semi literate. I mean, this was a significant question in how staff was to deal with Donald Trump. And I think that the answer is, well, he can read. He didn't like to read. It was a hardship or a burden for him. And he would reliably, when he had text in front of him as a speaking aide, he would depart from that because he would grow bored with reading or it would be too taxing. And the conclusion ultimately was you certainly could not trust his ability. You could not trust his level of reading comprehension. These diaries, the appearance of these diaries is interesting and is a story in itself. So Fauci kept this diary on his office computer, I suppose, and his office computer was a government computer, was an HHS computer, and it came to reside in its system. So among the Lessons here is don't use computers that are tied to your own office. And I mean, this is like a lesson for everyone. If you have a job, really be careful of compartmentalizing the computers that you use, because if you use your office computer, computer, whatever is on it does not belong to you.
- [36:17]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [36:18]
Michael Wolff
And so at.
- [36:24]
Ryan Reynolds
At.
- [36:24]
Michael Wolff
When. When. When RFK, when RFK Jr. Came, became. Became the HHS secretary, one of the things that he did was, was look at everything that. That Fauci had left on the office computer. Now, let's also Note that RFK Jr. S most successful book was a book about Anthony Fauci. So the enmity here was already set up. The issue was already in place. Fauci was RFK's enemy, was a MAGA enemy, was a republican enemy. So let's look for dirt. I mean, essentially that is the modern political formula. Who's your enemy? Let's look for dirt. And what they found, dirt. It's not exactly dirt, but it would certainly prove to be embarrassing. And then RFK Jr handed this material to Senator Paul, who had made. Also had made Fauci one of his bete noirs.
- [37:45]
Joanna Coles
Well, an RFK junior Whose own diaries had been exposed and were recently. Well, they were exposed by a friend of his wife's as they were getting a divorce. Late wife. And are the subject of a biography about him that came out earlier this year, including his sex diary and the various conquests he had with the names and a numerical scale of how far he'd gotten with them.
- [38:15]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. So his diary was much more. Should have been much more explosive, actually was not particularly explosive and is much more concerning, I would say, than Anthony Fauci's diary.
- [38:31]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, And Anthony Fauci's diary. It's him sort of both impressed by the fact that he's now mixing with the A list and also finding it unnerving. He says. There's one bit. I went to a book party last night for Jonathan Carl. Jonathan Carl being the political correspondent at ABC for Jonathan Carl's new book about Trump at Cafe Milano. I was totally swamped all night by people wanting to say hello, shake my hands and take pictures with me. I could not get away from it. Although some people may think this is great to have people treat you like Elvis Presley, but it was really very unnerving.
- [39:09]
Michael Wolff
So this is being. This is being used. Let's just analyze this because this is being used as to highlight. And I'm trying to infer there because I don't think this is what it says but it highlight his shallowness, highlight his, the stars in his eyes highlights what else he is. What do you think the meaning of this is?
- [39:38]
Joanna Coles
Well, I think they're trying to suggest that he's a star fucker, that he wants to be the center of attention, that he's using the constant broadcasts that the President gives about COVID to make himself more famous. And he's enjoying it and he's getting famous. And I think the suggestion is richer off the back of the pandemic.
- [40:05]
Michael Wolff
Right, but let's now talk about what a diary does. A diary is something you write actually for yourself. So in this passage he's basically saying to himself, you know, this is really, this is totally unique in my life. This is, this is, you know, as I, as, as I narrate my own day, this is really extraordinary, this thing that has happened to me. Now anyone, anyone who has had a brush with celebrity would write that kind of passage.
- [40:46]
Joanna Coles
Well, anybody who's got any interior life might write that, that passage. And also I, I mean some people write diaries thinking that they are going to be published.
- [40:56]
Michael Wolff
So there are only British people. That's absolutely true. That's a completely true statement because it's a form, among. It's a British literary form, the diaries. And people write these diaries. And I know many, many, many Brits who have over many years written these diaries as something that they will leave to their families so that their families can then make money on them after they, after they die. And
- [41:28]
Joanna Coles
politicians do. But politicians do that here too. I mean, presidents here do that. I mean the first thing you do when you're, when you leave the White House is, you know, go and talk to publishers about how much money can you get for your diaries. It's not.
- [41:40]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, but those, but those. No, no they don't. And they, they write a memoir after based on these dire. On, on their diaries. But the actual form of publishing a diary is a British literary form, actually quite a fascinating one. But it has no currency here. You could not go to an American publisher and say, I'd like to publish
- [42:04]
Joanna Coles
my diary, but it's just a memoir in another form. My favorite diary, of course is Bridget Jones's Diary, which is completely made up and yet more true than a lot of other diaries.
- [42:14]
Michael Wolff
But it's not just a memoir in another form is the all important thing. And it is that interior, superior voice that is actually really interesting in a British diary in that revealing aspect of this. When political memoirs here are neither interesting, the whole point about them usually is that they are not interesting. They are just a public relations tool by any other name. And the real point of a diary on the British thing is not, not public relations. It's actually the kind of personal warts and all.
- [42:55]
Joanna Coles
Okay, that's a fair point about access to a sort of truthful interior monologue that if you have the comfort of knowing it might be published after you die gives you much more freedom. I mean Alan Clark's diaries possibly being the best political diaries that were published in which he describes another member of the cabinet as the kind of man who buys his own furniture which I E. I've inherited all my furniture. I will never have to buy any furniture because I'm grand and of a different class. A particularly passive aggressive description of a British politician. But let's go back to Anthony Fauci's. I've received a lot of honours over the last year and a half from a number of prestigious organizations. Unfortunately there are so many of these that it is very difficult to fully appreciate them all as they all seem to pile up in a very intense time frame. Another time. He says that a few days ago Julia Roberts sent me a beautiful flower arrangement. Mailed her my thanks. Scott Atlas, who's a rival scientist still causing problems with his herd immunity issue.
- [44:12]
Michael Wolff
Right. And I don't find anything at all objectionable about this. As a matter of fact, I find it kind of, kind of notable that he's, that he's aware of this and it's good to be aware of this. And then you know, you can argue that there is a kind of a kind of. He understands that he is. That this celebrity moment is a, is a freak moment for him. And also against the background I'm seeing this as here a guy who has labored in anonymity, bureaucratic anonymity, classic bureaucratic anonymity. And then by this freak, freak circumstances, a worldwide pandemic, he becomes a significant if not the main voice of it for several years.
- [45:20]
Joanna Coles
Well the other thing that's so interesting is how celebrities obviously get hold of his number and start calling him for personal medicine, medical attention and advice. So we've got one here. Had a great call with Barbara Steisend. I accidentally butt called her later in the evening and she said she was going to call me soon anyway. Cause she wanted to know if there was any difference between the Moderna and the Pfizer vaccine. I told her none. And then a later entry, Barbara called me on my cell phone today and asked me questions about her booster shot. Another entry reads, it's Also, it's always good to hear from her, which is just, you know, celebrities get themselves to the top of the pack, but the other people who get themselves to the top of the pack, exposing a level of hypocrisy, which is breathtaking, are Stephen and Katie Miller. Katie Miller is pregnant during the pandemic and is constantly calling or texting Anthony Fauci for advice. She now says, oh, he wrote the diary. Cause he knew it was going to be published and I was sort of enticing him to expose the kind of man he was.
- [46:35]
Michael Wolff
I mean, she is truly a rank phony in the. I mean, a rank phony. Let's spend some more. Yes, let's spend some more time on her. She is really chilling in so many respects.
- [46:51]
Joanna Coles
Well, I mean, he writes in her diary that Katie had anxiety because she was traveling. She was tested positive for Covid when she was only 10 weeks pregnant. And he gave both Katie Miller and Stephen Miller advice on how to stay safe as they go to visit her parents, I think. So again, the hypocrisy of it, because then they promptly call for him to go to jail.
- [47:13]
Michael Wolff
Now, the, the. I mean, the stuff that I found most interesting is when he's talking about his relationship with Trump and his interactions with. With Trump. And you get to see this incredible, both Trump's flattery and Trump's inattention. And also you get that flavor of Trump just talking and talking and talking and talking. So that becomes, I find, a very compelling firsthand account of the difficulties and the challenges of dealing with Donald Trump. When you're, when you're, when you have real responsibilities in government and you have to deal with this guy well, and
- [47:59]
Joanna Coles
you're dealing with a fast moving pandemic and people don't know what's going on in real time, and there's all sorts of alternative advice being given and nobody knows what's quite right.
- [48:10]
Michael Wolff
There's another point that I think it's important to make about appearing before Congress. And number one, the thing you do not want to do, that nobody wants to do is appear before Congress at any time because its sole purpose is performative. All you are there, you are a bit player, a dupe in a process. So this is not an investigative body. It's not an investigative procedure. It's just to score. It's so whoever has called you to appear, it is for them to score points and often against you.
- [48:56]
Joanna Coles
Right? No, your only job is to say
- [48:58]
Michael Wolff
it has no legitimacy. It has no legitimacy. And people should start to recognize this. This is. We shouldn't pay attention to it. It's not there for anything. It's meaningless. It is intent is to obscure the truth.
- [49:14]
Joanna Coles
As I was watching Fauci, I mean, we were taken back to that horrifying time during COVID when no one knew what to do. And one of the books that since COVID I have found helpful in understanding actually what went on and why children were kept in masks two years after the pandemic had started and well into a period when everybody was getting vaccinated. Is this book in Covid's wake? And what it's good at explaining is the position of people like Anthony Fauci. And I was just going to read a couple of paragraphs from it. It's by two authors, Stephen Macedo and Francis Lee. Expertise does not immunize experts from failure. Elite groups can tend towards groupthink and mutual reinforcement of biases. A self righteous sense of moral and intellectual superiority can in turn amplify these tendencies. Public health scientific experts derive their legitimacy from the perception that they represent objective, evidence based and fair minded inquiry. But experience has shown that experts cannot always be trusted. Public health experts and elite scientists in most cases no doubt sincerely believed they were operating in the public interest. The evidence that we present here also suggests that their actions were mixed with conflicts of interest, the desire to avoid blame, protect reputations and preserve personal privilege and institutional power. And I think it's always worth remembering that when we look back on what was going on.
- [50:52]
Michael Wolff
That sounds like astrology to me. Anybody could say that. Of course that's true. Duh. You know, obviously experts are often wrong. Obviously people are.
- [51:04]
Joanna Coles
Michael, We've rarely seen times when experts spoke so confidently about things they often didn't know.
- [51:12]
Michael Wolff
Experts often speak confidently. They often speak confidently, yes, because they're experts. Yes, because they've promoted. But often because the conventional wisdom rules at a particular point in time. And that's what people adopt in this situation, in the COVID situation, a wholly unique moment. Nobody knew how to respond to this. There was no model, there was no path through this except enormous amount of alarm and worry. And so people obviously overcompensating. Did they do this too long? Did they overcompensate too much? Absolutely all true. But the idea that there was any other way that this could have happened, since it almost in every country nobody found that way is.
- [52:09]
Joanna Coles
Well, actually Sweden found the way. There was all sorts of evidence to suggest we don't have to relitigate Covid here. But what the book points to is how you end up in circumstances where children wear masks from the age of two in schools after vaccines have been operating in the country for over a year.
- [52:28]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, no. I mean the closing down of the economy. The obviously true. But the paragraph you. I haven't read this book. Just the paragraph that you read. And speaking as a writer, I know the mistake of writing in those kinds of generalities. And if I read that and if that's the early in the book, I would have put it down.
- [52:51]
Joanna Coles
It's about the conflicts of interest that people have when they are trying to give advice and the foolishness of letting public health officials dictate economic policy.
- [53:05]
Michael Wolff
Okay, well, I'm going to stop myself here because I haven't read this.
- [53:11]
Joanna Coles
I'm going to send you a copy. I'm going to send you a copy. This is where you say I'm not going to read it.
- [53:17]
Michael Wolff
No, no, I'll read anything. I'm delighted to do it. And then we can have a discussion about this. I would be pleased to do that.
- [53:23]
Joanna Coles
I'm going to send you a copy of the book. All right. Donald Trump and rfk. Who is the most anti vaccine between the two of them?
- [53:33]
Michael Wolff
This is confounding because I've been following this closely and I hear within the White House there's a lot of discussion has been since the campaign about RFK Jr. With a conclusion among everybody or I don't speak to everybody, but I speak to a number of people. There's certainly the people that I speak to that RFK Jr. He's just a nut case. I mean everyone agrees, it's obvious agrees that there is something wrong there and they roll their eyes and they accept that they're saddled with RFK Jr. But there's nobody maintains that he is a person who you might turn to for advice and counsel and reasonable policy decisions.
- [54:32]
Joanna Coles
Well, in fact, you would turn away from him.
- [54:34]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. And one of the things that they have within the White House, it's a worry is the anti vax position because the anti vax position is wildly unpopular in the United States of America. Popular among a very, very small group of maga maha whatever partisans or that that core. So they have tried in every way to send the message to RFK Jr. Cool it. But suddenly you have Donald Trump calling RFK Jr. On the carpet for not going fast enough with his anti vax program. So what's that about? I.
- [55:25]
Joanna Coles
Well, because I thought earlier in the year you had said that you saw RFK was being pulled back, he was being diminished in the public space that he might be fired because this position, especially the anti Vax position, was not playing well with the base. So what is Trump doing here? I mean, we know that Suzy Wiles has tried to close down RFK Jr very much.
- [55:46]
Michael Wolff
Susie Wiles has been incredibly mature, I think might be the word about the anti Vax context, which is to say, yes, the base wants it, but. But the larger country does not. This is going to be electoral poison and they really have to carefully balance that. Now here is Trump coming along and this happens, of course, all of the time, which is professional people making mature evaluations, analyses of a situation, and then Trump blundering in and reversing it and, and not understanding it and making a mess, which it feels to me like this is one of those instances. And also Trump's perception, quite likely of his own weakness in the MAGA base. So that's what this says to me. He has a sense that his base is. That he's in trouble with his, his base. Now, let me, let me say that in the context.
- [57:02]
Joanna Coles
Well, it's probably in trouble with his base because all their children are getting
- [57:04]
Michael Wolff
measles that Trump is. Well, not for that reason, though. And so I just wanted the context. You never know why Trump is doing things because he often acts without any logic whatsoever. But if you are trying to divine some logic here, it would be that there's a lot of weakness in the base over the war, over the fact that he has competition, whether it's Tucker Carlson or other MAGA heads and conspiracy theories. He's feeling pressure there. So he's reverting to something that's reliable. Let's go heavy on anti vax. They like that. So his base is not worried about getting measles, even if they are getting measles. His base, we'd rather get measles than get vaxes. So that's what that is, what the logic. If there is logic. Let me point that. That's a very important point here because there may not be, but if there is, it is probably that. But RFK's head must be slightly spinning over this.
- [58:25]
Joanna Coles
Well, I think RFK is used to having his head spin from whatever the brain.
- [58:32]
Michael Wolff
Yes, the brain.
- [58:33]
Joanna Coles
Brain worm, from eating raccoon penis, from his various dalliances with heroin and the snorting of cocaine off a toilet seat seat. I think he's used to head spinning. So he's probably feeling very comfortable indeed. Todd Blanche. Todd Blanche.
- [58:51]
Michael Wolff
Michael Todd Blanche, who may go down, you know, and here again, you know, it Seems it's. What could Trump's logic be? So there are two things which seem, seem to be presenting Todd Blanche with some maybe insurmountable problems, which is that he has told Congress that the slush fund, the settlement that Donald Trump made with the irs. So the settlement Donald Trump made with himself to provide an enormous amount of money to compensate people who Donald Trump feels have been wronged by essentially the Biden administration. Todd Blanche has agreed that this is unpopular and they will not go forward with this. They will dispense with this, but he will put it in writing. And the other part of this is Trump's immunity from IRS rules rulings. And so clearly, Donald Trump has said, no way. I mean, I'd rather you not be confirmed than me having to give up my IRS immunity. What's more, they, although Todd Blanche has said that they will net this idea of this compensation fund for Biden victims, that they're that pay no attention to that. We'll. Well, we're not going to go forward with that. And yet they are going for it. They found money from another source of money within the government to compensate these victims. Again, a Donald Trump clear Donald Trump mandate. So Donald Trump is willing to do exactly the kinds of things that are going to stand in the way of Todd Blanche getting confirmed. Now, even if he's not confirmed, he will continue as the acting Attorney general. So Donald Trump may feel, well, what's the difference? I get what I want. Plus, he'll still be in the job anyway. And the only thing that's being lost here is Todd Blanche being able to say on his resume that he was the Attorney general. So what the hell.
- [61:24]
Joanna Coles
What I thought was interesting was that the two holdout senators, both of whom are leaving, Thom Tillis from North Carolina and John Cornyn from Texas, obviously knew that asking for this reassurance in paper was going to be the thing that would sink Todd Blanche. They knew that he wasn't going to be able to get that and that they did not think his word was good enough.
- [61:49]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, indeed. And again, Donald Trump has not helped him over this hub.
- [61:58]
Joanna Coles
Well, and yet another sign of Donald Trump on his way down that he can't get this through and he can't get his Save America act through. Downfall, Downfall, the downfall of Donald Trump. We're chronicling it here three times a week where we go inside his head. Michael, we've got some poems. We've got some poems. First one is from Paul Watson. Trump fears the call of the reaper as much as a Hezbollah beeper. He can't trade snake oil for his mortal coil. The devil knows he's got a keeper. Quite liked that one. Thank you, Paul. One from Dave Hildebrandt. Donald Trump was an arrogant man who couldn't adhere to a plan. He waddled about until he fouled out until he found out in his death History named him a scam. And then we've got one more from Edits. There once was a don in despondence with trials and tribulations in preponderance, A late uncle he hath who taught the Unabomber math. So in tribute, he bombed at the correspondence. That's a bit of a stretch there, Edit, but it was. I really liked the way you brought in the late uncle he hath who taught the Unabomber math. Except of course, we know his uncle didn't teach the Unabomber. It was just one of Donald Trump's crazy stories to make himself more interesting because he doesn't think he's interesting enough and yet he is. Anyway, thank you for your poems. Keep them coming. And we've had several people have sent in alternate covers for Communion by JD Vance, which we will expose on Saturday. We can have a competition and see which one you would buy Most likely to buy at Barnes and Noble.
- [63:51]
Michael Wolff
I really like it that you put restore the second syllable to the word poem. Americans, you know, make it a one
- [63:59]
Joanna Coles
syllable word poem like tome. Well, whatever. Michael, as always, good to see you. Thank you. If you have been for joining us, don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. This is where I remind you, we are. What are we? We're independent media. So we can have conversations like this where Michael and I yell at each other. It's always harder to talk to you on Zoom. I want to interrupt you in person. It's so much easier and people point this out to us in the comments. A lot of people get fed up with us talking over each other, which we tend to do less when we're in the studio.
- [64:33]
Michael Wolff
I think. Actually, I think they like it. They say they don't like it, but it makes it real.
- [64:43]
Joanna Coles
Michael, I'll see you on Saturday.
- [64:45]
Michael Wolff
See you on Saturday, Joanna and Ryan,
- [64:48]
Joanna Coles
big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.