I Know Why Everyone Talks About Trump's Diapers

Summary

Inside Trump's Head — "I Know Why Everyone Talks About Trump's Diapers"

Podcast by The Daily Beast, hosted by Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles (w/ co-host David Warrington)
Original air date: August 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the enduring public fascination with Donald Trump’s health and, most bizarrely, the recurring rumor about his supposed use of diapers—a metaphor and fixation for his invulnerability. Wolff and Warrington also analyze the role and rotation of Trump's press secretaries, the drama of recent White House revamps, power struggles among Trumpworld allies, and the ever-present spectacle and paranoia that defines the Trump presidency. The hosts explore what drives Trump’s need for dominance, media manipulation, and constant excitement, plus the career arcs and pressures facing those in his orbit.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Diaper Question: Fixation on Trump's Vulnerability

Timestamps: 01:28, 16:24–20:14

• Wolff remarks the most common question he’s asked is: “Does Donald Trump wear diapers? And when you are around Donald Trump, is there a smell?”

• He points out there is no evidence or basis for these rumors. The real curiosity is about Trump’s supposed lack of human vulnerability, given his age (80), appearance, habits, and “gargantuan” persona.

  “People look at this guy and say there are laws of nature here... They don’t appear to apply to him. So there must be a vulnerability... How do you find the chink in the armor of the strongman?” — Michael Wolff [01:28, 19:29]

• The “diaper question” is shorthand for the public’s quest to find Trump’s weakness: the chink in the armor of the strongman.

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2. Press Secretary Turnover: Caroline Levitt’s Departure

Timestamps: 02:18–07:40, 13:13–14:35, 41:13–48:58

• Caroline Levitt, Trump’s long-serving press secretary, is leaving after 18 months. The job is described as grueling, with Trump monitoring and critiquing every performance.

• Wolff and Warrington discuss the intense pressure of being front-facing for the administration while having little actual policy power.

  “You are just the front-facing performer. You’re told what to do, you’re told what to say... In the case of Trump, he hires people who have no particular experience.” — Michael Wolff [06:07]

• Trump prefers “young women in that job,” enabling him to berate them in a way male aides couldn’t take (see Sean Spicer’s famous potted plant anecdote [11:31]).

  "He likes women out there because actually, he can yell at them better..." — Michael Wolff [10:52]

• Possible replacements include Scott Jennings and Anna Kelly. The role is ultimately a springboard to Fox News or failed political runs, with little influence on policy.

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3. Showmanship, Paranoia, and Media Manipulation

Timestamps: 21:56–33:48, 28:31–34:42

• Trump thrives on being the center of attention, dominating the news cycle, and manufacturing drama, such as with the “decoy plane” incident reportedly triggered by a weak Israeli intelligence report about Iranian threats.

  “This is all just Trump the showman... always the showman first, last, and always.” — Michael Wolff [33:30]

• The “decoy plane” brings up questions about Trump’s relationship with the Secret Service, which Wolff claims is unusually warm and aligned with Trump’s authoritarian ethos.

  “The Secret Service loves Donald Trump... Trump has the Trump ethos, which is an authoritarian ethos... works for people who are in a quasi-military position.” — Michael Wolff [27:17]

• These orchestrated spectacles feed Trump’s constant need for excitement and headlines, akin to a rock star constantly raising the stakes to keep life interesting.

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4. White House Ballrooms & Monuments to Self

Timestamps: 34:42–39:04, 50:15–56:24

• The hosts discuss Trump’s controversial $900 million White House renovation (ballroom, Rose Garden, etc.), funded by private money from major companies who hope to curry favor.

  “This is fixed in his head... Even though this is a bad look... This is merely Donald Trump saying, ‘This is my House, I can do what I want.’” — Michael Wolff [34:57]

• The renovations are both about legacy-building and a pretext for raising, and possibly redirecting, large sums of money for future ventures—envisioning a new “court of Mar-a-Lago” post-2029.

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5. Proximity to Power: Career Prospects and Calculated Loyalty

Timestamps: 47:07–56:24

• Jeanine Pirro, under pressure for not prosecuting dubious cases, uses legal maneuvers (special grand juries, publicized damning reports) to appease Trump and keep her position.

  “Just give him something that today will calm him down and worry about tomorrow tomorrow.” — Michael Wolff [45:07]

• The tenuous career trajectories of figures like Caroline Levitt are debated: can they transition from Trumpworld to corporate America, media, or elected office? Wolff is bullish on their ability to monetize Trump connections; Warrington is more skeptical about Silicon Valley or corporate America opportunities.

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6. Putin’s Wanted List: Peripheral Drama

Timestamps: 56:24–58:50

• The podcast closes on the odd story of Conor Kennedy (RFK Jr.’s son, Taylor Swift’s ex), now a Putin “most wanted” after joining the Ukrainian fight.

  “I think it’s a point... That would be a point of pride. I mean, I think, to be singled out as an enemy of Vladimir Putin and Russia, I think that’s what we all should be, shouldn’t we?” — Michael Wolff [58:02]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Never in the history of politics has someone wanted to spend more time with their family.”
  — Michael Wolff, on the euphemism of political exits [05:01]

• “The press is the enemy. You’re on the side of the Trump West Wing.”
  — Michael Wolff, on the Trump approach to media [08:07]

• “He succeeds because he doesn’t get tired of it, because this is what he needs... I need to be at all times the center of attention.”
  — Michael Wolff [29:45]

• “Could Caroline Levitt make tens of millions, if not $100 million, if she wanted to? I think she probably could... My suspicion is she wants to have a political career, but who knows?”
  — Michael Wolff [53:29]

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Timeline of Significant Segments

• 01:28 & 16:24: Introduction and dissection of the “diaper” rumor; public fixation on Trump’s vulnerability
• 02:20–07:30: Caroline Levitt’s job as press secretary, her exit, and Trump’s penchant for young women in front-facing roles
• 10:18–11:41: Gendered approach to staff; Sean Spicer’s infamous meltdown
• 13:13–14:35: Press secretary as a career stepping stone
• 21:56–34:42: The “decoy plane” incident, drama creation, and Trump’s symbiotic relationship with security and the showman mentality
• 34:42–39:04: White House renovation saga; monument-building and fundraising
• 41:13–48:58: Jeanine Pirro’s legal dilemmas, special grand jury workaround
• 47:07–56:24: Departure calculus for Trumpworld figures; post-admin career speculation
• 56:24–58:50: The bizarre tale of Conor Kennedy and Putin’s wanted list

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Conclusion

This episode exemplifies “Inside Trump’s Head” at its most incisive: tracking the intersection of spectacle and authoritarianism, analyzing the psychological undercurrents that make Trump and his world tick, and exposing the transactional, often theatrical, relationships that define power in the modern White House. It’s both a meditation on why the world is obsessed with Trump’s weaknesses—and how he so effectively obscures them.

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For listeners who want unvarnished, insider analysis of the Trump era’s power games, media manipulation, and human drama, this episode is essential.

Transcript

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[Michael Wolff]

Tennessee 2012 I get this question all the time. Does Donald Trump wear diapers? And the follow up question to that is when you are around Donald Trump, is there a smell? Here is this man, this 300 pound man who stuffs this grotesque diet. He looks terrible. He's 80 years old and yet he is the most dominant presence in the world. I think people look at this guy and say there are laws of nature here. There are laws of nature which somehow appear not to apply to him. Does he wear diapers? Well, that would sure be a vulnerability. How do you find the chink in the armor of the strongman?

[David Warrington]

Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna.

[David Warrington]

She's leaving. Machine gun lips is leaving us.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, it's actually she's lasted quite a long time if you think about it. I mean that is a hard job. I mean, it's a hard job because the job itself is, is standing in front of all these reporters just hurling questions at, at you and, but then dealing with Trump and you're, you're. The person who is, is in some sense the person he most cares, doing the job that he most cares about. And he's monitoring you all of the time, constantly. So you're on. She's in. And this is Caroline Levitt that we're talking about. She's in the press room doing her thing, doing it actually, usually pretty well. And he's looking at her, telling her always how she could have done it better. It's a very pleasant job.

[David Warrington]

What is she gonna do now? So she's been there since the beginning of the second administration, as you say, she's been phenomenally effective in peddling the narratives he wants out there. Machine guns.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's her job, so.

[David Warrington]

Right. But she's been good at it, as you said. I mean, Sean Spicer was in and out. Scaramucci in and out. I mean, she's really held on for 18 months.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, Scaramucci never actually had that job. He was the communications director, so the press secretary, the person who was standing up in front of the press every day fielding all of those questions is its own particular performance oriented job, which again, she did, she did very well. And she does this. And Trump has come to like women, young women in that job. Kayleigh, Jesus, I don't even remember McNanomy, who he liked in that job and then who went on to get a job at Fox, of course.

[David Warrington]

Well, I'm assuming that that's what Caroline does. I mean, she's just come back after maternity leave, which clearly he wasn't keen on her going on. And I suppose he feels somewhat abandoned by her, perhaps because she's more interested in hanging out with her children than she is in hanging out with him.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't have insight into this. I always assume when somebody in politics says they are going to, they are leaving to spend more time with their family, they have been fired. And I do not know in this instance whether that is remotely true. And matter of fact, I've always understood that he likes her. He yells at her, but he likes her. But having said that, never in the history of politics has someone wanted to spend more time with their family.

[David Warrington]

Well, I also think that she's only done two briefings, I think, since she's been back. So what I'm hearing is simply that he's frustrated and angry with her and she's had enough. And I do think there's a period when you've just had, especially a second baby, when you look at them and you think, you know, what am I doing this for? And the job has to be really good. If you have a financial alternative, which she does, cause she's married to a wealthy guy, to take time out.

[Michael Wolff]

I think that is true for normal people. I just want to add a piece of context here. This job is not an important job. I mean, it's important for what it achieves because it's front facing, it's giving the administration's position. But you have no particular power in this job. So I mean, it used to be once upon a time, Pierre Salinger, et cetera, et cetera, that you were effectively one of the policy people and then you would communicate that policy. That hasn't been true in many, many, many years. You are just the front facing performer. You're told what to do, you're told what to say. And in the case of Trump, obviously he hires people who have no particular experience. I mean, they're very young. She's young, Kaylee, what's her name? Was, you know, I don't know, 27. So it's a thing we see this person is the front facing person of the administration, but is really, other than for the performative value, irrelevant to the, to the policy making side of the administration.

[David Warrington]

Do you think it's possible that after the leak about the plane and the decoy plane and the press being part of the decoy plane with Marco Rubiot as Trump and Hegseth and Natalie Harp fled in food cart one to another plane. Do you think that might have pushed her over the edge? I mean, she must have had a lot of flak from the press for A, them not being involved and B, them being on the decoy plane which was supposedly a target by the Iranians?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't think so. I mean, she's been, this is certainly nothing, nothing new. She's been doing this job for now quite some time. There is in this admin. In Trump politics a incredibly clear divide between the West Wing, the administration and the press. In other administrations, the press secretary comes to have a kind of divided loyalty, working with the press all the time. You don't want to lie to them, you want to maintain your credibility. That has never been true in Trump politics. The press is the enemy. You're on the side of the Trump West Wing.

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[Michael Wolff]

As I say, he likes young women in this role. So, I mean, that could change. Of course he has had men. I'm just trying to think, who did he have men?

[David Warrington]

Well, he had Sean Spicer.

[Michael Wolff]

Other than Sean. Sean Spicer, who came to an unhappy end early on. I think it was entirely women.

[David Warrington]

I mean, he had the woman that went on to be governor of Arkansas, Sarah Huckabee.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, of course. And. And then Kaylee, what's her name? And Kaylee McCarthy, if you can keep doing that. And I'll just say what's her name? You just fill it in. But I don't think. And he came to do this. I like women out there. And he likes women out there because actually he can yell at them better. And they seem to take it in a way that, I mean, Scott, a spice. Sean Spicer just would fall apart. Every time the President would yell at him, Trump would yell at him, fall apart, be a puddle on the floor.

[David Warrington]

What do you mean he would fall apart?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, he was. I mean, there was the famous, the famous thing where he hid behind the. The potted plant. You know, he would.

[David Warrington]

Hid behind a pot.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, he just, he just would get too rattled. So rattled that he couldn. He couldn't get out in front of the press and deliver his lines in a clear and cogent way. Unlike Carolyn Levitt, who's kind of remarkable. She was a junior person. She really emerged out of that just as a junior level person throughout the campaign, still a junior level, one of a kind of stable of, of people who would serve in the spokesperson's role.

[David Warrington]

Well, and she got her job there at the White House as an intern writing back to people who'd written to the president. So she was writing endless letters every day and cards back to them from the White House. But the other person that sent her

[Michael Wolff]

and they liked, by the way. And that's what Trump really likes. He likes people to come up through his ranks. He doesn't like to bring in outsiders.

[David Warrington]

Well, Scott Jennings has clearly lost a lot of weight since he's been doing much more cnn. He's grown a beard recently, which I can't believe. Trump likes the beard. I know that Don Jr. Has a beard, but I don't think that Trump likes facial hair.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, J.D. vance has a beard.

[David Warrington]

True. And do we think that Donald Trump likes his vice versa president? No, he don't. I think he likes Marco's look better though, not his shoes that his poor feet are swimming in. But so Scott Jennings has emerged. And also Anna Kelly. Anna Kelly has been Caroline's deputy and is even younger, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I think I would put my money on her. But I don't know. As I say, and always important to remember. It's not an important job.

[David Warrington]

It's not an important job. But you are the front face of the White House.

[Michael Wolff]

Although I don't know, but it doesn't really mean anything except you're a face in Trump, a pretty face he would prefer.

[David Warrington]

Well, and then the deal seems to be that you do a stint as White House press spokesperson and then you go off and get a gig at Fox News. Dana Perino was, I think, spokesperson for George W. Bush. She has a show on Fox News. Kellyanne Conway, constantly.

[Michael Wolff]

No, and it is. And, and if you think about it, that is the, it's, it's perfect preparation. I mean, Fox News, all you are is a, is a front face. I mean you don't really, you don't really have a job other than that. I mean you're not a, you're a, you're a newsreader.

[David Warrington]

I think traditionally when you do a podcast. And this is our, we've just passed our first year anniversary of Inside Trump's Head. We're supposed to remind people to subscribe. So please subscribe to the Daily Beast. And then we're supposed to lay out our menu of what we're going to talk about. So we are going to talk about the ballroom and what's happened to that budget, which as anybody knows, when you're having building work done, the budget doubles and the deadline extends into the future, way into the future. And that's obviously going on at the White House. We've got Jeanine Pirro, who was beaten up by Trump after calling him, calling out his nonsense on why the reflecting pools bottom, why the American flag blue hasn't worked. And she said it was because of shoddy contracting. We've got her now convening special grand juries in Washington. We've got Putin putting one of Trump's cabinet members sons on a most wanted list. That is a fascinating story, actually clue to whose son it was. He used to go out with Taylor Swift. And we've got, well, we've got the most asked question that you get when you run into people who recognize you and want to know more about Trump. Why don't you tell us what that is? Because it wasn't the question I was expecting. Earlier this week, I spoke to Sarah Ewell Weiss from our Washington bureau. She was up in New York and she said that when she's talking to people who aren't involved in politics at all, the question they most ask her is about Donald Trump's health. Is he well, he looks terrible. What's wrong with him? But you get a different question question,

[Michael Wolff]

it's a related question. It's just a more precise question. Possibly she was being nice because it's not a question that one likes to repeat. But the question is, and I get this question all the time. I mean, it may not be there are very few conversations which I am in about Donald Trump. And I can go further than this. There are very few conversations I ever have that are not about Donald Trump. But then the question comes and it's always, it's asked always in a sincere way, as people want to know, does Donald Trump wear diapers? And it kind of always, it always brings me up short because as though I would know. And then the follow up question to that is, when you are around Donald Trump, is there a smell? And again, this is asked not in a spirit of mockery, but in a spirit of everyone kind of believes this to be true now. There is no basis to believe this is true. There is no evidence about this now. And I have not, let's say the last time, I have not been with Donald Trump since or been in proximity to Donald Trump since the campaign. So slightly less than two years. So I don't know what might have happened in two years. But certainly up until that point, the last time I was with Donald Trump, there was no odor that surrounded him.

[David Warrington]

So, and so where does it come from, this people, people's obsession? Because it's all over social media too.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I think that it has to do with this. What is here, here is this man, this 300 pound man who stuffs this, you know, grotesque diet into himself, hasn't done, you know, the only exercise he ever gets is getting, is getting in and out of a golf cart. You know, he looks terrible. He's 80 years old and yet he is the most dominant presence in the world. He keeps going, he keeps going longer than almost any other politician in our time. He would effectively. He has effectively dominated presidential politics for 10 years. It's an extraordinary accomplishment. And I think people look at this guy and say, there are laws of nature here. There are laws of nature which somehow appear not to apply to him. So there must be a vulnerability. There must be. And it's true, there must be. So what is it? And obviously the health questions are now constant in the second administration. And this other thing, this, does he wear diapers? Well, that would sure be a vulnerability, but the other thing is we don't see a vulnerability around Donald Trump. He just keeps going. He is the strong man. And I think that there's this natural thing, you know, you know, how do you, how do you find the, the, the, the chink in the armor of the strong man?

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[Michael Wolff]

No, I think, I think the opposite is true. I think. Yeah. All right, yes, he feels that he's the target, but he feels within the White House, this has been described to me that first thing he talks about, the threats and the plots against him all the time, but the characterization I got is that he talks about this with a mixture of. And the quote would be with the mixture of fear and pride. So I think there's a combination of things going on there. And he believes that he got elected in 2024 because of the attempt on his life in Butler. So that makes him both, both a target, but also the luckiest man on earth. The luckiest man on earth because this happened to him. So he got reelected and all he got was a nick in the ear.

[David Warrington]

And it may still remain one of his most remarkable moments where from behind the podium. I mean, that was an incredible moment in modern times.

[Michael Wolff]

No. And another indication of that lack of human vulnerability. So, I mean, there he is. He keeps coming back. I mean, he keeps nothing waylays this man, this gargantuan man. And I think the thing, the whole plane switcheroo, which we now know, and we spoke about this the other day and I tried to qualify the nature of, of a threat. Just because you call it a threat doesn't mean it's actually a threat in the way that we would understand, we would understand that a real possibility that something bad is going to happen. And in fact, since then, I think yesterday the news was, well, this was a really, really weak, low level threat and a threat that perhaps, actually not even, perhaps a threat that did not warrant this creating this whole decoy, the plane, this big drama.

[David Warrington]

The drama of it. Yeah, the drama of it. And also that it might have been manipulated by the Israelis to, to sort of. I mean, American intelligence was less convinced by the threat than Israeli intelligence.

[Michael Wolff]

Right, but we're not supposed to take Israeli intelligence over American intelligence. So, so who would have done that? Well, that would have been the President of the United States. That would have been Trump himself. And, and it could be because, because as, as you say, he, he has a streak of paranoia about this, but it also could be because he's created A story. This is another, another capture, capture the news cycle. And again, going to the fear point and the pride point. They're after him.

[David Warrington]

So I have a question for you related to that theme, which is, you know, he says, well, I have to do what the Secret Service says. The Secret Service told me that, you know, I had to do that. Does he run the Secret Service or do they run him?

[Michael Wolff]

He runs the Secret Service.

[David Warrington]

He runs the Secret Service.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, this is a complicated relationship because obviously, and there are actually some laws that directly relate to this that give the Secret Service a particular kind of power, but not really over the President of the United States. Now, the President of the United States does not want to be killed. So he has reason to take the advice of the Secret Service very seriously. But there are two factors here. First, it is he's the President of the United States. He does control the executive branch. Yes, he can counterman the Secret Service. But the other aspect is the Secret Service loves Donald Trump. I mean, I mean, I mean, they have, they have, have had, they tend to have a much cooler relationship with other presidents. This is a, A very, they have. The Secret Service has in, has embraced Donald Trump. I mean, he has, he, he, at various points, he hires people from the Secret Service. They love the guy.

[David Warrington]

So, and they love him because of things like Butler, Pennsylvania, or because their jobs are much more interesting. Because there are so many threats for him. I mean, or they just like him because he's kind of, because he stops and talks to them and he knows their names and things and he's not aloof with them. He doesn't treat them like they're.

[Michael Wolff]

Hell, I think that that's probably true. And then I think there's probably a more basic level. These are all fundamentally, you know, fascist guys. They're policemen. They're guys who. Trump has the Trump ethos, which is an authoritarian ethos, a police before everyone ethos, a control, top down ethos, works for people who are in a quasi military position.

[David Warrington]

So interesting. And of course, he's with them all the time. I mean, they have incredible proximity to him, which is sort of exciting.

[Michael Wolff]

But all presidents, of course, that would be true. But there's something more about. There's something about what Donald Trump stands for and what a paramilitary organization stands for that is obviously, not surprisingly, complementary.

[David Warrington]

So I have another question for you too, just based off what you said about the drama of this sort of swapping planes and the movie, like quality, that whole adventure, the food car being smuggled in and out of planes A subterfuge is, which is. And you see this a little bit with rock stars, that the tolerance for the excitement of the job begins to wear off. And so you need to add in new layers of excitement. You know, it's like rock stars take drugs or sleep with more and more women. And I wonder if that's also going on with Trump, that what do you do? You're the president for the second time. Everybody's come and paid homage to you. How do you keep it interesting? How do you keep your tolerance for this? Because what else is there at a certain point? You've had the gods of Silicon Valley come and pay homage. You've won a second time when no one expected you to do that. How do you keep making it interesting for yourself?

[Michael Wolff]

Win the news cycle, win it, dominate it. Headlines. Every headline is a Trump headline. I mean, Trump understands and the people around him understands what the main operation is. Trump succeeds because he does this every day. He doesn't get. And he succeeds because he doesn't get tired of it, because this is what he needs. I need this. I need to be at all times the center of attention. And if I'm not, then things get bad for everyone around Trump. So what's the story of the day? What is that? Just think we are in a reality show and we have to maintain our numbers and our ratings. How do we do that? And I think this probably came up. I mean, if I had to think this through, the Israelis came to him. There was this piece of intelligence. The American intelligence community said, well, yeah, but everything. All indications are that this is at best a weak intelligence report. Plus it's coming from the Israelis, who have their own self interest in pumping this, this story. And we would probably say, this is not worth, this is not worth acting on. This is certainly not worth taking, taking exceptional means to deal with it. And then the Trump people said, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. You know, it could be a threat. And what would you.

[David Warrington]

Wait a minute.

[Michael Wolff]

If it were, I can see how this went. If it were a threat, what would we do? Well, we wouldn't want to be on the plane, and we would probably set up a decoy plane. And then how would we do this? How would he get onto the plane and this without people knowing? And then there would be a kind of, well, you know, we could use a food cart. We could, Ah, the food cart. So I can see how this, this, this took on a life of its own as something that would, that would, that would play to the news cycle for Several days or more in the news cycle.

[David Warrington]

Well, and also, of course, it happened, you know, three weeks ago now. It's no use to anybody if we don't know.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. Well, then this was, of course.

[David Warrington]

And that's your point, right? On Tuesday, he leaked it because there's no point. The subterfuge isn't interesting if he can't enjoy the plot line.

[Michael Wolff]

And then there was. I mean, there's this interesting thing. How could you, you know, and even for Donald Trump, I, I think you would set. You would. This thought process would, Would occur to you. How could you live with yourself if on the decoy plane, the, the entire press, all of these people had to be sacrificed for your safety? I mean, how could you live thinking that, knowing that? Well, the answer is you could live with that. Because. Because, you know, it's not really a threat. I mean, you're, you're. Something is being acted out here. And no, and no reality will interfere with that. So don't worry about it. You don't have to worry about the press. You don't have to worry about the cabinet members, because nothing is going to happen.

[David Warrington]

Well, and also the Marco Rubio of it. That Marco must have seen the intelligence too, and seemed quite happy to sit on the plane with the rest of the staff.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. Yes, completely. So this is all this. This is just Trump the showman, Trump, always the showman first, first, first, always the showman first, last, and always that there and then.

[David Warrington]

And taking Natalie Hart, the human printer, with him and Pete Hegseth with him. Why did he want Hegseth with him?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. Perhaps they just had something to talk about and he needed Hagseth on the plane. But the other thing that happens is that's the politics of being around Donald Trump. So there's enormous jockeying, there's enormous people elbowing others out of the way. I mean, I recounted that during the campaign when there was a similar plane switch and a similar decoy situation, and Natalie Harp was put on the decoy plane and she threw up a monster fit, and so she had to be moved back to the presidential plane or the candidates plane, rather.

[David Warrington]

Okay, so another plot line. How does the plotline of the ballroom, how does that develop? Now if you're Donald Trump and you're looking at the ballroom? I mean, we discussed him screaming at contractors.

[Michael Wolff]

It's not just the ballroom. It's the revamp, this $900 million revamp of much of the White House, from the Rose Garden to the Ahilipad to The ballroom. And I'm sure that's a modest number, which, that's the low end of what this is going to cost. And this is central. This is one of those things. This is fixed in his head, and it's fixed in his head. Even though this is a bad look. I mean, this is popular with nobody. I mean, the changing the White House, defacing the White House, doing this over without any. On your own say so. No one has approved this. No one has agreed that this is the right thing to do. This is merely Donald Trump saying, this is my House, I can do what I want. And he's literally stamps his feet about this. So. So this is not politics, this is personal. I want this because I want it, because I want to leave my mark. And I'm going to push this forward. And the Supreme Court is telling me, or the Court is telling me I can't do this, but I'm going to go around them, I'm going to do this anyway. I'm going to take it to my Supreme Court. And it doesn't even matter, because what the Court says in this situation and in the whole string of others, I'm going to find a workaround. I'm going to do this.

[David Warrington]

Well, he's going to do it. And it also seems like he's going to make some money out of doing it, too, because he's got all these private funds for it, which he solicited from some of America's biggest companies, Amazon, Apple, you name it. He's bypassed Congress. And yet this is actually something that should be financed by.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I think this is an interesting thing, too, because what you've, you've done is then you create the circumstances for a pretext for raising money. But we don't really know what that, that money is being raised for. And the people contributing that money don't really know what this money is being raised for. So where all this money is going, I mean, I think it is true that he wants this monument to himself. He wants this to be the Trump White House forevermore. And he will do that by putting up these forevermore structures, forever wars, forever structures. But at the same time, he's looking for money to take with him to finance the next stage of his political career. So he's going to leave the White House in 2029, but he is not going to leave the stage. This is important. And the idea of him whether he will have a third term, whether he will try that is a naive way to see this question. He's not going to have a third term, but he's going to keep himself on the stage, on the national stage. And he did this once before, obviously, when he was the last time he was sent back to Mar A Lago. But this time he will do it A, not in defeat and B, having raised an incredible amount of money to essentially finance an out of power presidential regime.

[David Warrington]

Right. The court of Mar A Lago, at which we're assuming Natalie Harp will sit as queen or at least as princess.

[Michael Wolff]

Extraordinary.

[David Warrington]

It really is extraordinary. I mean, it's the spinoff series, you know, White House was season two and season three is Mar A Lago. Mar A Lago with Natalie.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made fifteen dollar bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] switch upfront payment

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of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.

[David Warrington]

So the other thing I wanted to talk to you about was Jeanine Pirro, another woman around Trump who's been yelled at. And actually, I find your comments that the women take the abuse better than the men do really interesting. Todd Blanche seems to have taken a lot of abuse. I mean, your descriptions of Todd Blanche being yelled at and Alina Harbour being yelled at during Trump's trials before he got reelected stuck with me. But Todd Blanche seems able to take the abuse. But this sense of Jeanine Pirro having been yelled at, Trump saying, well, I may fire her. I don't know what's happening. After she called it on the fact that it was shoddy contract work after a no bid contract had been given to remake the reflecting pool. And it all went horribly wrong. And then crazily, the Washington police arrested a former Olympian kayaker, accusing him of vandalizing this sort of weird rubber thing that they've put into the reflecting pool and of course now they've ripped it up. But there seems to be now a workaround for Jeanine Pirro to humiliate people in Washington. Please explain.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's also workaround for her to keep her job. So what happened here is that all of the people in her Office, in the office of the federal prosecutor based in Washington, came to her and said, we can't prosecute this case. We literally are. Not only are we going to be laughed out of court, but there can be sanctions against us. I mean, we could be disbarred. We cannot do this, and we won't do this. So she was suddenly, what is she going to do? I mean, she's not going to try the case, number one. I doubt if she can try a case. She needs the prosecutors in her office. I remember when Alina Haba, actually, nobody would do anything. And Alina Haba had to go into court. Court herself, and was promptly laughed out of court, made a mockery of. So Jeanine Piros. There was no possibility. She was in a corner. She had to dismiss this case. And then she had to deal with Donald Trump, who immediately threatened to fire her. And then she had to come up with something else. What can I give the president? What can I tell the president? What is going to mollify the president? So they've come up with this other kind of workaround, which is to appoint a special grand jury, which in a special grand jury, most grand juries process lots of cases. The grand jury sits, and there are 20, 30 cases brought before. Should there be an indictment here? Should there not be an indictment? They kind of run through them and they're secret.

[David Warrington]

Right. Grand juries, for the most part. The stuff gets discussed there remains within the.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So in. In a special grand grand jury, it focuses only on one case. And then the grand jury can issue a report, you know, and the reports are in. In this. And again, this would mollify. This is all this done to mollify Trump? We can do this. We can go after whoever you want us to go after. And even though we can't prosecute that case, we can, because it's a ridiculous and weak case. And just no one.

[David Warrington]

It's like the case against the guy that threw the subway sandwich, remember that? That they took him to court and the jury laughed them out.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. But then they can issue a report which. Which they basically, the prosecutors basically write themselves, and it's a damning report and. And will humiliate someone. And that will. Trump might be satisfied with that, but it is also something that just kicks the ball down the road. And so the likelihood is that there won't be a special grand jury or it will take months to kind of put together, and then finally maybe they'll do something. But by that time, Trump will have. No job. She will not have been fired and she will still have her job and Trump will have forgotten about the reasons that he was going to fire her. Although by then there'll probably be other reasons that he might fire her. But this is all in the thing. Just give him something that today will calm him down and worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow.

[David Warrington]

Well, and also potentially, it is quite a useful tool that you are able to, under a sort of quasi legal status, issue a report about someone. It may well find there isn't any evidence whatsoever to prosecute someone, but it can still be a vindictive report about someone.

[Michael Wolff]

That's how it's presented to Trump.

[David Warrington]

Right. I mean, Jerome Powell is a great case of this that. You know, Trump did that press conference where he handed Jerome Powell a bill and said, listen, your building budget is out of control. And Jerome Powell had to say, well, actually, you know, you've got the wrong figures there, et cetera. But that's the kind of thing that I think he could use as a.

[Ryan Reynolds]

He could.

[Michael Wolff]

But it's also the kind of thing that Pirro can use just to satisfy him today and tomorrow, you know, does a special grand jury ever really get appointed? Well, we'll see about that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better. Every plan, $15 a month, even unlimited. That's it. Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

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[David Warrington]

But, but it's interesting that Caroline Levitt is leaving the White House. That Dave Warrington, David Warrington, who is one of the White House lawyers, is leaving the White House. The, the tension around the midterms is building. I wonder if people like Jeanine Pirro, who's also been yelled at and shouted at and humiliated, have enough by the midterms that they're like, you know what, you're losing power. Rats are leaving a sinking ship. You can find.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I don't, I mean, yes, yes, maybe I have a feeling that. I mean, you have two things that are going on. I gotta go and find another job. You know, this is a sinking ship. I'm tired. I mean, these are hard jobs. I'm tired and I'm leaving. But then the other reality is that I'll never get this shot again. This is power. I am going no higher than this. And I want to hold on. And I think she probably does want to hold on. And I think she probably will try everything to hold on, witness this special grand jury. And I think there's a likelihood that she probably will hold on, not least of all because she probably has all kinds of stuff on Donald Trump. I mean, remember, they both come out of New York. She knows where the New York skeletons are buried.

[David Warrington]

Although there's also a moment and I think Thom Tillis and Bill Cassidy and John Cornyn, although Cornyn and Cassidy obviously didn't want to give up their Senate seats and they were primaried by Trump. But there's a moment here which I think Thom Tillis is looking as if he wants to seize where you can make money off your proximity to the presidency. Your connections are still valid. You haven't been out of power too long for you to feel relevant. And there's a sort of maximum earning moment, which they may also be thinking about. I don't know how much money Jeanine Pirro has, but you would think that she might still have two years left in her at a white shoe law firm if one would hire him where she's got genuine earning capacity.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. Yes, maybe. I mean, I think that she doesn't probably does not exactly have that option options that others would have. I mean, she's pretty tainted. So you have to measure that. I mean, what are your, I mean, this is just a career moment. What are my opportunities?

[David Warrington]

Well, it's also interesting thinking about Carolyn Levitt because what are her career opportunities now? She ran for Congress in New Hampshire. She didn't get elected. So she's a failed Republican candidate.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I mean that's, I mean, I don't think a failed candidate is not necessarily. Actually that's sort of in a way a plus. You have experience as running for office. You have name recognition in where you have run before. Now she's internationally famous. Sarah Huckabee parlayed that job into being the governor of Arkansas. I mean, if Caroline Levitt wants an elected position, she's in a much better place to get that and to pursue that than she was before.

[David Warrington]

So she's no doubt. And that wasn't the point I was going to make. The point I was going to make was that she has two choices. She can either run for elected office for a Republican or she can go to Fox News. What she can't do is the kind of move that people made from the Obama or even the Biden administrations where you go into tech and make a lot of money. Someone like Jay Carney who was a spokesman for Obama and then went to be, you know, in charge of press at Amazon and make serious money.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I, well, I don't know. I mean, it depends what you consider serious money, of course.

[David Warrington]

Well, more money than you would make as a Republican congressman.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yeah, but those are different aspirations. And could Caroline Levitt make a lot of money? I think that the answer is absolutely yes. There are Trump people all over the tech and media business now. So if you wanted, she wanted to go to be a, into a technology company in a governmental PR role. I'm sure she could.

[David Warrington]

Really, I find that really unlikely and I think workers in some of those companies would revolt. I mean, I have a friend that went out with Hope Hicks. He's a Hollywood producer and he reached the point where he said the reason they split up was because his friends wouldn't have dinner with him because they just didn't want to hang out with

[Michael Wolff]

someone who, well, that was, I mean, she went out too. She worked for, from Murdoch. I mean she had a lot of problems there but, but now she's, you know, with somebody from Goldman, et cetera, et cetera.

[David Warrington]

But I, I don't see, actually, I, I disagree with you. I, I, I, first of all, those companies are littered with people who worked for Obama and who worked for Biden. And I don't think those companies can hire people.

[Michael Wolff]

I think, I think you're completely, completely naive about what is going on at those companies now. And it also you event driven. I mean, what happens in the, in the midterms, what, what it looks like toward 2028, what do they want to achieve in the short term from this administration? I mean, you have, you have the

[David Warrington]

way they achieve things in this administration is just, it's pay for play. Right? You just make Caroline Levitt on yourself.

[Michael Wolff]

You know nothing, I love you dear Yearly, but you know nothing about how this, this, this works. You can't just, it's like getting into college. You know, what do you just write a check to Harvard? No, you gotta go. It's a, it's a, it's a, this is a, giving money is a complicated process actually. You know, and as it happens, you know, the, there are, there are a lot of Trump people now in the, on the Paramount play a payroll in terms of.

[Mint Mobile / Commercial Announcer]

Well, of course there are, because the

[David Warrington]

Paramount deal is relevant now, but this

[Michael Wolff]

isn't any deal you are trying to do now. You want Trumpers on your payroll. So. And everybody is trying to do deals and everybody will be rushing to do deals in the final two years of the Trump administration. Yes. Could Caroline Levitt make tens of millions if not $100 million if she wanted to? I think she probably could. I mean, my suspicion is that she wants to have a political career, but who knows?

[David Warrington]

Well, she'd certainly be good at a political career. She's learned how to manipulate people. Well, we'll stay tuned and we'll watch this, but my experience of having spent some time actually very close to various tech companies is they are riddled with Obama and Biden.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that they have to do deals in the, with the, with the Trump government in the, during the Trump era. And you're not, and Biden people and, and Obama people are not going to be able to do that. They actually bring literally nothing to the table because they don't even know that they, they have no idea who the Trump people are. Many of these people have never spoken to a Trump person. They don't want to speak to Trump people. And obviously the leaders of these companies have become Trump people. So, you know, well, they've become Trump

[David Warrington]

people until they're no longer Trump people. Because there's a new, there's a new index of power. Right. And that will change after the, after the, you know, after the midterms.

[Michael Wolff]

That hasn't changed yet. We are still here. We are in the right, in the peak of Trump, Trump power. And if you want a deal, your Biden and Obama friends in the tech industry are not going to help you get that deal done.

[David Warrington]

You know how they help you get the deal done? They write the checks.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know what that means.

[David Warrington]

It means they write the checks for the ballroom. It means they write the checks for whatever, oh, yes, pet project is.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, yes, we know that. But as I say, this is not, you know, you hire people. You need the person to tell you to who to write the check to. You need the follow up here. You need checks. Checks in themselves are one part of it. But you need someone to find, follow the trail of the money, shepherd your money. Otherwise, believe me, they'll take your money and they won't give you what you want.

[David Warrington]

All right, can we move on, please, to the son of the cabinet minister, an old friend of yours, I believe, who's now been put on Putin's most wanted international list.

[Michael Wolff]

You have to tell me about this story because this is a, this is a Daily Beast story. So you tell me about it.

[David Warrington]

This is a story about Conor Kennedy, who is the son of Robert Kennedy Jr. Still Jr. At 72, who became a mercenary for Ukraine. He is the former boyfriend of Taylor Swift, was moved by the Ukrainian situation, went off to Ukraine to work on the front lines for a bit, came back pretty quickly and is now on the international wanted list, apparently put there by Putin himself.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Cool.

[David Warrington]

I don't know if that's cool for Conor Kennedy, but it's a bizarre, it's such a bizarre turn.

[Michael Wolff]

It does seem cool for. I mean, I don't know what that means to be on this wanted list. What does it.

[David Warrington]

Well, I think it means you can't go to Russia for sure. Well, yes, which he probably wasn't planning to do. But Russia has methods to make people, you know, fall out of windows. I don't think I would want to be on Russia's international most wanted list.

[Michael Wolff]

I think I would like to be. I mean, I think it's a point. That would be a point of pride. Yeah. I mean, I think to be singled out as an enemy of Vladimir Putin and Russia, I think that's what we all should be, shouldn't we?

[David Warrington]

Well, I'm sure it's going to make him even more of a man magnet. I think you want to be a stealth enemy. I don't think you want them to know that you're doing it. I think you want to be under the radar, especially when dealing with Russia. I just know.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't know. Sometimes you got to stand up, man. Come on,

[David Warrington]

Michael Wolf. All right, we will be back on Saturday with more. With more. We'll be back with more. There's always more. There's always more. And if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. And a big thank you to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus.

[Michael Wolff]

Thanks, guys.

[David Warrington]

So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate, appreciate your support.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made fifteen dollar bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

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[David Warrington]

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