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- [00:02]
Narrator/Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Fox 1. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multiview. Choose up to three streams and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights and instant replays. The FIFA World cup streaming live on Fox One. Offers are subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.
- [00:30]
Joanna Coles
And we're live on matchday as Doug
- [00:33]
Michael Wolff
reaches for a Buffalo wing.
- [00:34]
Joanna Coles
He's got it.
- [00:35]
Narrator/Advertiser
Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi, too.
- [00:38]
Joanna Coles
What a finish. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Matchdays deserve Pepsi.
- [00:46]
Narrator/Advertiser
Comcast is delivering extraordinary experiences in live sports through the incredible broadcast and storytelling from NBC, innovative and personalized viewing features on Xfinity and Peacock, and the country's most reliable WiFi. Viewers can enjoy every game changing play faster and more seamlessly than ever. All in a network built to deliver unforgettable moments as close to live as possible. The ultimate experience for the American sports fan. Learn more@comcastcorporation.com sports up until quite recently,
- [01:19]
Michael Wolff
European leaders especially would go that extra mile not to be bothered by this, to contain themselves, to hold their own irritation. I think that's changed, and I think we're seeing this change right now. I think what we're seeing is an understanding that when Trump comes after you and when you respond with some backbone, you are the contrast gainer. So the value is now in standing up to Trump, dismissing Trump and taking advantage of his ridiculous, meandering, free associations.
- [02:05]
Joanna Coles
Michael.
- [02:06]
Michael Wolff
Joanna, how's the weather in Cannes?
- [02:10]
Joanna Coles
The weather in Cannes? Well, I just got here about an hour ago. It's supposed to be the hottest June on record in the south of France. I am here for the Creative Advertising Festival, which I come to every year. Michael, you have been here many years
- [02:27]
Michael Wolff
running a miserable event. Yes.
- [02:32]
Joanna Coles
Is it a miserable event? I mean, let's.
- [02:34]
Michael Wolff
It's a miserable event filled with miserable people, with often drunken miserable people. A terrible combination with, you know, with not an intelligent thing said in the. What is it, four days over the four days that it occurs because there's our advertising people.
- [02:58]
Joanna Coles
Well, I'm determined to have a good time.
- [03:01]
Michael Wolff
And also that is terrible. I mean, it's literally, you know, which they foist upon you. It's sickening.
- [03:09]
Joanna Coles
Who foisted wine upon you? Michael Wolf, I'm hearing some post traumatic stress.
- [03:16]
Michael Wolff
You can't go anywhere at the Cannes Lions advertising event. Without someone saying how have a glass of here's we're serving. Stop with the Jesus.
- [03:29]
Joanna Coles
Well, you're saying that because you're comfortably ensconced. Michael Wolf, in the Hamptons, where Amaganza is the home of what's it called? Summer in the Bottle. Summer in the Bottle from the Wolfer estate, which totally dominates the Hamptons.
- [03:46]
Michael Wolff
One of the worst winemakers, the Wolfers. I don't think that that's true. I don't think. I've only recently had ro they served. I think you served it.
- [03:59]
Joanna Coles
Summer in a Bottle. That's what it's called. It's delicious. And it comes in painted bottles. I think it's great. And I feel like you've got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. Michael Wolf, It's Summer in Amaganset. What's not to love?
- [04:12]
Michael Wolff
Well, Summer in Amaganzet is fine. It's terrific. Actually, it's the Cannes Advertising Festival that you've gotten me going on.
- [04:23]
Joanna Coles
Okay. Well, I'm here to hustle up business. So we are going to talk about after I've reminded people to subscribe, please, to the Daily Beast podcast, because we are independent media and we appreciate your support. And one of the ways you show your support is by subscribing to us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcast. But, Michael, I want to talk about the cancelled visit from the Italians. They were supposed to be coming next week, but Giorgio Meloni, the Italian prime minister, has taken taken great umbrage at Donald Trump. I want to talk about why is JD Vance out front supposedly bringing home this peace agreement, the memo of understanding and, well, there's a lot to discuss about what Hugh Docherty is referring to as Grift Force 1, the new plane that's finally arrived from Qatar. It's taken quite a long time, but not as long as it was going to take Boeing to deliver a new Air Force One. It's got four full bathrooms, apparently, and nine other bathrooms. It's got a formal dining room. It's got a living area. It's got two big bedrooms. I think it sounds fun. I want to ride on it. But it may be going to the Trump Library after Trump has finished, so no other president will be able to use it. Where shall we begin?
- [05:51]
Michael Wolff
You know, let's go with J.D. vance, because I'm curious about this, too. Is he being set up to fail as actually Trump seems to suggest? I'll blame it on JD if it doesn't go right. Or is this JD Inserting himself ahead of Marco Rubio because he was feeling slighted in this very public process. Or is this J.D. who sees that his. I mean, let's look at J.D. vance as certainly among and maybe the most opportunistic person in American politics or in America itself today. And so he has to. His first goal, I think he must think, is, I need to solidify the Trump relationship here. I don't get to move forward in my upward career trajectory, which is the only thing I think about in life, along with Jesus Christ occasionally.
- [07:12]
Joanna Coles
And book promotion. Book promotion.
- [07:18]
Michael Wolff
Unless I have the support of Donald Trump. And in order to have the support of Donald Trump, I've got to bite the bullet on Iran.
- [07:29]
Joanna Coles
Is he going to be able to deliver, though, on Iran? I mean, what he seems to have done so far is scolded Israel saying, stop criticizing Donald Trump. Donald Trump is the only world leader who's interested in supporting Israel right now. You're a really hated country, and we're going to deliver this deal for Donald Trump.
- [07:50]
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't think that there's anything to deliver on Iran. I mean, that's the issue here. We've already. There's not only nothing to deliver, we've already given everything away. So the only real issue on Iran is to push it as far away, as far on the back burner, as far from Donald Trump personally as it can be pushed. So that's sort of J.D. vance's, I think, most immediate job. He's now the point person. Donald Trump is not the point person. This will naturally fade away, I think, is the hope of everyone concerned.
- [08:38]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [09:08]
Joanna Coles
And when Donald Trump says, I'm going to blame it on JD if it doesn't work, what's inside his head there?
- [09:17]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's just Donald Trump kind of a ha ha. I mean, there's an interesting thing about Trump, and it's about Trump's humor, which is not necessarily, when you're with him, not funny, because it's a. It's a process of ridicule of other people. And his A talent for spotting the weakness of other people. So I think that he sees this as J.D. vance's weakness. J.D. vance obviously more aligned with the MAGA. No more forever wars than, at this point, Donald Trump himself. So it's a tweak. He's always tweaking, tweaking, and with a certain amount of. Certain edge and a certain amount of cruelty.
- [10:18]
Joanna Coles
So when you talk to people in the White House, what do they actually say about the current state of the relationship with JD and the president?
- [10:28]
Michael Wolff
I think that they think it's. I mean, there is no relationship with anyone with Donald Trump. Every relationship with Donald Trump is, at best, an equivocal relationship. So I don't think there's any sense, oh, he's Falling out with J.D. oh, he doesn't like J.D. sometimes, yes. But that is not qualitatively different from anyone else. You could say the same thing about Marco Rubio. You could say the same thing about any member of the Cabinet until actually, the relationship goes entirely south, and then they're out, and then they're never mentioned again. There is no expectation and never has been an expectation that Trump will have a close relationship with any one person except himself.
- [11:18]
Joanna Coles
Well, he clearly has less of a relationship than he did have with Giorgia Maloney. I mean, a sort of crazy spat between the two of them after he came out and said, and I'm actually gonna quote him here, I wrote the quote because it's just so. He's so crazy. She's probably happy I talked to her. Trump said, I didn't have to talk to her. She begged me to take a photo with her. She wanted a photo with me so much, I wouldn't have even done it. But I felt sorry for her. Now she has come out and said, and I love it, and I hope we can play this, because it sounds even better in Italian. IO el Italia. Neither I nor Italy begs. And so the Italians have decided not to come on a visit. Antonio Cejiani, their foreign minister, was going to come to visit Washington next week. Now he's no longer coming because Trump has been so absurd over this photo. And there's a sort of sexual underpinning of the whole thing, which I think left people feeling really uncomfortable, obviously, including Giorgia Meloni.
- [12:34]
Michael Wolff
Well, let me unpack a couple of things here. I mean, he's obviously annoyed, Actually kind of furious with the Europeans for their lack of support in the Iranian war. And she, who has been regarded as probably his most reliable supporter in Europe, has also been among the European leaders to say, no, we don't want any part of this. So there is this annoyance factor. And with Trump, an annoyance factor almost necessarily must be expressed. The idea that he can hold hold inside himself his annoyance and not let it out. Is everyone around Trump long ago discounted that as a poss. If he's annoyed, he's going to express it and he's going to express it in that kind of meandering, free association, you never know what to expect way that he does. Just part of what Trump is now. The interesting thing, however, is that I think up until quite recently, European leaders especially would go that extra mile not to be bothered by this, to contain themselves, to hold their own irritation, things that they mature people are theoretically capable of doing and just hope for a better day. I think that's changed and I think we're seeing this change right now. And I think what we're seeing is an understanding that when Trump comes after you and when you respond with some backbone, you are the contrast gainer. So the value is now in standing up to Trump, dismissing Trump and taking advantage of the fact fact of his ridiculous meandering, free associations. And I think you have an interesting contrast here, especially this week, because I think the key suck up in Europe to Donald Trump has been Starmer in the UK And Starmer in the UK I think stands a very good chance in the very near future with this recent by election of being thrown out of his job. And the fact that he has so slavishly sucked up to Donald Trump will not help him.
- [15:39]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, okay, so let me just read exactly what Maloney said, which was after all, it's not the first time it's happened. I can only say it's a pity that he doesn't show the same determination with the enemies of the west with the enemies of the United States. And of course you're completely right about Starmer. Though Starmer initially was slavishly obsequious to Donald Trump, he then also didn't want to get involved in this war, wouldn't help out with the war, eventually agreed to send one ship which was going to take two weeks to get to Cyprus to sort of help out on the fringes and is being unseated sort of as we speak, possibly by internal Labour Party politics. But actually he's shown a bit more backbone recently against Trump by not getting involved in the Iran war.
- [16:39]
Michael Wolff
No, I think that that's true, but his imprimatur is the and he set out I'm going to be the Trump Handler, I can handle this guy. And the way I'm going to handle this guy is, is through slavish flattery. So, I mean, this is only one among the many things that has branded Starmer as a weakling and incompetent.
- [17:06]
Joanna Coles
Right. But as you point out, Trump doesn't even like the slavish obsequiousness. I mean, he gets bored with it, and then he just wants more and he wants to push at the person more. He seems to respect the people that don't.
- [17:20]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's Donald Trump, which everybody, you know, I mean, and I have some sympathy for the fact that they, that they've, you know, Donald Trump is. This, is this wrench in everybody's. Everybody's life, especially in the, in the life of European leaders. But having said that, it's also clear who Donald Trump is. And, and the, and any way that you think you are going to make find an advantage with Donald Trump, he will reverse that and he will screw you. So at least there's now, I think, among all European leaders, this sense of where they stand in relation to Donald Trump and that their advantage is to be someone who will clearly say, enough is enough. Donald Trump.
- [18:18]
Joanna Coles
Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond. Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer well, there was a perfect moment when they were all sitting around the G7 table and they brought in some extra business people because Donald Trump was sitting next to Sam Altman, the founder of OpenAI, or one of the founders of OpenAI, and Trump complained that his seat was lower than Sam's. Did you watch, watch this? Did you see this?
- [19:13]
Michael Wolff
I did not.
- [19:14]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so anybody who's ever been in a corporate meeting will recognize this moment when, to your horror, you are sitting on a lower chair than anybody else and you're trying to pump the chair up to make sure that you are the same height. And Donald Trump is unable to get his chair up to the same height as Sam Altman, who's sitting to his right. And so, in fact, he actually insists on. First of all, he pokes Sam and sort of indicates that they must swap chairs and then someone comes to his aid and brings him another chair and he gets to sit on the higher chair. Cause he can't figure out how to lift his own chair. And the next one is brought in. But I couldn't help wondering if it was done on purpose by whoever set out the chairs around the horseshoe, the inevitable horseshoe table.
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Michael Wolff
Yeah. No. And I will say, not in Donald Trump's defense, of course, but just as a, as a comment on. What we want to observe about Donald Trump is that this happens in every meeting where there are chairs and tables and people jockeying for position. Every meeting of every. Of leaders of, of either people in high government office or corporate leaderships anywhere. This is the nature of these kinds of meetings with these kinds of people who are jockeying for advantage. So I'm just saying that Donald Trump. What happened to Donald Trump is what might happen in any meeting not involving Donald Trump.
- [20:55]
Joanna Coles
Oh, right, yeah. In any meeting in corporate America. Yes. I've seen this sort of play out numerous times. There was also someone jockeying also.
- [21:04]
Michael Wolff
These chairs don't work very well.
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Joanna Coles
They really don't work. I can never get.
- [21:10]
Michael Wolff
They cost an enormous amount of money, these chairs. And they never work.
- [21:15]
Joanna Coles
They never work. It's true. So another person that actually has surprisingly not been as much in the headlines as we would have expected is Pete Hegseth. He was very much in evidence at the beginning of the war. You'll remember he was giving all those press conferences with Dan Kaine. He's the four star general running operations in Iran. And the two of them were constantly giving press conferences. And then that suddenly stopped. They just stopped giving press conferences. And I think Pete Hegseth, missing the limelight in April came out on the side of your friend being slightly anti vax for people in the military and saying that it was completely unnecessary for them to have a flu vaccine which the military has mandated for people. Can we play that tape?
- [22:06]
Michael Wolff
Under President Trump, the War Department continues to take decisive action to once again restore freedom and strength to our joint force. We're seizing this moment to discard any absurd overreaching mandates that only weaken our warfighting capabilities. In this case, this includes the universal flu vaccine and the mandate behind it. The notion that a flu vaccine must be mandatory for every service member everywhere, in every circumstance, at all times is just overly broad and not rational. Our new policy is if you, an American warrior entrusted to defend this nation, believe that the flu vaccine is in your best interest, then you are free to take it.
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Joanna Coles
You should.
- [22:49]
Michael Wolff
But we will not force you, because your body, your faith and your convictions are not negotiable.
- [22:56]
Joanna Coles
Your health, Michael, I'm very stuck on this phrase. Your body, your faith, your convictions are not negotiable.
- [23:09]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, let me think that through for a moment. That is one of those, one of those things that probably is not remotely true in any way, shape or form. Of course all those things are negotiable. We negotiate them and every single person negotiates them on almost a daily basis. So, yeah, this is just some comms person or speechwriter came up with that 100% meaningless phrase. So, but I think, you know, I mean, what is going on is, is, is, is clearly. Let's, let's, let's secure our, our MAGA credentials. Let's do it again. About a, a, about the, on this vax issue. And this vax issue is actually not all that important an issue, you know.
- [24:15]
Joanna Coles
Well, except that, except that in the last two weeks, 200 members of the military in Texas have gone down with flu, have got serious flu.
- [24:27]
Michael Wolff
Well, it's not serious flu. It's the flu.
- [24:30]
Joanna Coles
Right, but it's the flu.
- [24:32]
Michael Wolff
Right, but if you're being called to do anything also, I don't know, those people get the flu anyway. People who get vaccinated get the flu usually it's not as bad as it would otherwise. But these are kind of suspicious numbers to me. So I don't want to pin this. I mean, I would like to pin anything on Hagers, but I think that this is probably, probably more the result of everyone else who wants to pin something on haggers than it is because he's such adult and such an obnoxious so and so and such a, such a obvious person who should not have the job he has. But I doubt if this is, if this is the crisis that we are suggesting it is. On the other hand, I do think he is trying to take advantage of this. I am an anti vax person and those are part of my credentials, my MAGA credentials, so that I too can possibly run for president.
- [25:50]
Joanna Coles
I am willing to bet an inside Trump's head mug that Pete Hegseth has got all his children vaccinated. Perhaps not against the flu, because I think that comes later. But I'm pretty confident all seven of his children with, I think his three different wives at this point have been vaccinated.
- [26:09]
Michael Wolff
Oh, my God. You mean you think that Hagers might actually be a kind of a cynical guy?
- [26:20]
Joanna Coles
I think that Hagers is probably quite normal and playing for the President. Didn't feel that he'd had a military press conference for some time. And so we're sort of waving and saying over here we're going to stop vaccines. And of course Covid vaccines during COVID were a huge issue in the military because they were mandated. But this seems to be a sort of nothing burger except that people are going down with flu.
- [26:48]
Michael Wolff
As they always do.
- [26:50]
Joanna Coles
As they always do. What is that?
- [26:52]
Narrator/Advertiser
Oh yeah, it's a World cup holder,
- [26:55]
Joanna Coles
like the soccer tournament World cup holder for the world.
- [26:58]
Narrator/Advertiser
Fits every car, holds every cup.
- [27:00]
Joanna Coles
It has a Carvana logo.
- [27:01]
Narrator/Advertiser
Carvana made it. They buy and sell cars. So they made a car cup holder.
- [27:06]
Michael Wolff
So.
- [27:07]
Narrator/Advertiser
Got any good cups lately?
- [27:09]
Joanna Coles
Used to. Just couldn't figure out where in the world to put them.
- [27:11]
Narrator/Advertiser
The World cup holder brought to you by Carvana. Proud sponsors of the World cup holder, sign up today to win yours@cup-holder2026.com not authorized or endorsed by FIFA. Not a real product for parity and fair use purposes only.
- [27:21]
Michael Wolff
Let's. But in terms of the people who are burnishing their credentials to be the next President of the United States in the Republican. The next Republican President of the United States. Let's take a look for a moment at J.D. vance's book.
- [27:46]
Joanna Coles
J.D. vance's book. Go on.
- [27:50]
Michael Wolff
Well, I just think so J.D. vance, as you know, has a new book out and it's a new book about his conversion to Catholicism. This is a man who has had many conversions in his life. So
- [28:09]
Joanna Coles
he has. That's a very good point, actually. Yes.
- [28:13]
Michael Wolff
And I think the title is Communion Something or other. Communion and Finding My.
- [28:19]
Joanna Coles
I think it's Finding My Way Back to Faith, which I'm sure he has done after having to work with Donald Trump for 18 months.
- [28:28]
Michael Wolff
Sounds like a kind of a 60s rock and roll song. Finding My Way Back to youo.
- [28:34]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, it does actually. It's a very good point. What are your thoughts on it? I can't wait to read it. Well, that's a lie. I can wait to read it. It's a total lie, but I'm intrigued to read it.
- [28:45]
Michael Wolff
Well, it's interesting. It will be interesting to read this. In contrast to his other book, his first book, has there been an intermediary book? I don't think so, no.
- [28:57]
Joanna Coles
Hillbilly Elegy was the book that came out.
- [28:59]
Michael Wolff
So Hillbilly Elegy, as you recall, was the book that made J.D. vance he came to prominence. Cause he wrote a pretty good book. I mean it's an intelligent book. It's a well written book. I Mean, I can take issue with it, as I can take issue with almost every book. But nevertheless, if you were to read that book, divorce from knowing what J.D. vance has become, you would say, pretty interesting book. But he wrote that as a book. J.D. vance was a, you know, he wrote it seeing himself as the writer of a book, as a writer, in effect, as a public intellectual even. And then on the basis of that book's quite extraordinary success, he became something else. He now converted from being a writer to being a public figure and then a politician. Now, this is not speaking as a writer, a natural progression, but he saw the opportunity and he grabbed it. So it will be interesting to see this new book, to read this new book in light of the other book and see if it is written as a politician would write a book or as the other book, as a writer would write a book. So I too, actually, in fact, I am looking forward to reading this book.
- [30:43]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so that might possibly be the best ad for a J.D. vance book ever. Michael Wolff is looking forward to reading this book. We should remind people, for anyone who hasn't read Hillbilly Elegy, it's about his growing up in Appalachia. It's about his mother, Moore. Is it more, more. Or his grandmother. He spent a lot of time with his grandmother, was a lot of drink and alcohol and drugs in the family. And he basically is rescued by the fact that he's intelligent. His grandmother sees that in him. She encourages him to read along with inevitably some teachers at school. And he then goes off to join the Marines and goes to.
- [31:24]
Michael Wolff
Now, do you think she saw him as intelligent or did she see clearly that he was opportunistic? Here is a guy who can, you know, let's encourage him to seize every opportunity. Cause he can do it because he's a real snake.
- [31:44]
Joanna Coles
Well, that's very possible. I hadn't thought of that. I think as the grandmother figure, she probably thought that he was the hope for the family and that there was an opportunity to break the cycle here, which he certainly has. But what's so interesting is how that book was taken up by what he would describe as the liberal elite and the held out as the shameful ignoring of Appalachia and the flyover states, as people refer to it. And here was someone who was pleading their case. Here is someone who visited the last pope and then the poor man died the day after J.D. vance saw them. Soon again. No wonder he's finding his way back to faith. And also he's the one that described Trump as The new Hitler. And he's now fighting his way back to faith. The whole thing is insane and as you say, wildly opportunistic. He really does make politicians look cynical.
- [32:50]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No, and if you're running for president, we, and we know that everybody except for Donald Trump himself embraces his inner or outer religious bona fides.
- [33:08]
Joanna Coles
Well, there's still nothing funnier than Donald Trump being asked which his favorite book in the Bible wasn't. Him saying, I like all of them. I like all of them. And then him standing outside that beautiful church just outside the White House and holding the Bible upside down for the camera. I mean, a voraciously more irreligious man. You could not.
- [33:32]
Michael Wolff
I have always thought that that is a counter indicated Donald Trump virtue, that while politicians are required to make this bow to their religious bona fides, the entire country has, has left the church, any church, a long time ago, and was secretly relieved to have in Donald Trump a guy who was as uninterested in religion as everybody else.
- [34:07]
Joanna Coles
Yes, that's actually a very, that's a very good point. And maybe that's why they like him, because they don't have to pretend that, that they're better than they are. And I still maintain that a lot of people want to live as Donald Trump does. I mean, I think it was Fran Liebowitz who said that he's a poor person's idea of what a rich person is. But I still think nobody cared about him spending however many occasions he did with Stormy Daniels, because porn is such an important part of a lot of men's lives. And so why wouldn't he want to spend at night with a porn star?
- [34:49]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, if you think about it, this must ultimately explain, obviously. I mean, it is so. I mean, Donald Trump has been so transparent and so bold in his perfidy, morally, financially go down the list.
- [35:14]
Joanna Coles
Well, and as he says, people, yes, people don't care. They don't care that he's making fistfuls of money, whatever. It's up to $4 billion since he got there. And as he says, people don't care. People don't care that he spent a weekend with Stormy Daniels at a celebrity golf tournament because that's what a lot of men would like to do.
- [35:33]
Michael Wolff
So we will see if that, if that premise bears out in the Graham Platner race, which it might
- [35:46]
Joanna Coles
meaning.
- [35:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think, in other words, it is that a significant number of voters understand the generalized hypocrisy of politics and are willing to at this moment in time. In the Trump moment. In time. Willing to look past that and say, you know, I don't really care.
- [36:14]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, it's interesting, especially the sort of sexts that were going from Platner to various women, which his wife had obviously discovered on his phone at some point. But I remember talking to a couple of. Of friends who work in finance. One of them has a very successful company, a hedge fund of his own. And he said, and this was actually after he'd got divorced, but he said he had at least 25 women that he would constantly send these messages to. They were just on a kind of rotation, but they were happening simultaneously. And he seemed to imply that most of his friends did that. And I think that's part of communicating on a cell phone for a lot of. A lot of people.
- [37:02]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, without praising Graham Platner, and I would certainly hesitate to do that. I think it is this measure that politics does not understand in so many ways, the reality of American life. And that's a disjuncture that somehow Donald Trump. Well, because he was a reality television star, has managed to bridge. And I think we were talking about. I think the other day, we were talking about this conceit that Donald Trump has about the tastes of America, that he understands what Americans like, the American audience. He understands that it operates on a level of, I don't know, vulgarity that politics does not acknowledge. Hence the UFC fight on the front lawn of the White House.
- [38:15]
Joanna Coles
Well, I think there's a lack of pretension to it which appeals to people. So much of politics and so much of culture perhaps feels pretentious. And, you know, Donald Trump is very clearly. He's pretentious in other ways. Like when he's sticking the bits of gold on the mantle at the.
- [38:39]
Michael Wolff
No, no, that's not pretentious. That's the opposite of pretension, actually. That's transparent, you know, just like gold, give me gold.
- [38:51]
Joanna Coles
But it's quite pretentious because it's pretending to be a sort of Versailles, as opposed to the American people's house.
- [38:59]
Michael Wolff
No, no, that doesn't work at all. I mean, even Versailles is not pretentious in that way. I mean, that's a symbol of vulgarity. So vulgarity is the opposite of pretension.
- [39:10]
Joanna Coles
Okay, I sort of see where you're coming from, but. Well, he's sort of. You're never going to see him at the opera or. In fact, I think there was actually a. I think there's a scene from one of Tina Brown's memoirs where he's complaining about having to go to the opera with Ivana, and they're all having dinner beforehand, and it's some sort of charity event, and he sort of raised his eyes.
- [39:33]
Michael Wolff
Well, let me. Let me point out that everyone complains about going to the opera. So that's. Except possibly Tina Brown.
- [39:43]
Joanna Coles
I remember taking my older son to the opera once. I smuggled him to the opera by telling him we were going to the Lincoln center because we'd gone to lots of plays at the Lincoln center, which she usually enjoyed. But I was determined to take him to the opera, and I was gonna take him to Fledermauss.
- [39:59]
Michael Wolff
We don't say the Lincoln Center.
- [40:01]
Joanna Coles
What do you say? Lincoln Center.
- [40:02]
Michael Wolff
Lincoln Center.
- [40:03]
Joanna Coles
Really? Oh, okay. Well, I always think of it as the Lincoln Center. Anyway, I got him there.
- [40:08]
Michael Wolff
That's like the Barbie.
- [40:11]
Joanna Coles
The Barbican. Okay, that's weird. All right. Although I think you do actually say we're going to the Barbican. We're not going to Barbican, which is a big art center in the uk.
- [40:20]
Michael Wolff
No, no, you do say as I say. You say the barbican. You just don't say the Lincoln Center.
- [40:25]
Joanna Coles
Okay, all right, well, whatever, Whatever. Now we're sounding protection.
- [40:28]
Narrator/Advertiser
New York.
- [40:29]
Michael Wolff
Joanna coles.
- [40:30]
Joanna Coles
Thank you. 30 years on, it's too late. Michael, where were you 30 years ago? Oh, wait, I know where you are. But. But I smuggled my older son to see an opera. And as the curtains went up, he suddenly started paying attention, the orchestra started playing, and he said very loudly, in what appeared to be a break that the entire theater could hear, oh, God, have you brought me to the opera? And then he skedaddled at the first half. At the first, there were two breaks, and he fled at the first intermission. He has still never forgiven me, but at least I tried, Thomas. I tried. Do you think this is also obviously in opposition to the Obamas? We have the opening of the library this week, and we have very much there still what Michelle Obama said ringing in people's ears. When they go low, we go high. I mean, Trump arguably has gone very low with UFC on the. On the South Lawn.
- [41:37]
Michael Wolff
You know? Yeah. I mean, this. I mean, literally, what. Everything that Donald Trump does, 100% everything, is in reaction to something else.
- [41:49]
Joanna Coles
So.
- [41:50]
Michael Wolff
And clearly, the Obamas, the all of the, all of the former president, the living former presidents who showed up for the opening of the Obama library are part of what Trump is always reacting to. These are the oppositional, A group of the oppositional figures in his life. They're actually, actually the antithesis of what he is, what he is trying to be, of his whole reason, in fact, for being the President of the United States. This whole reason for being, in fact.
- [42:38]
Joanna Coles
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- [43:45]
Michael Wolff
Well, I don't. I mean, because Donald Trump is not really a paranoid, because he doesn't. I mean, a paranoia requires some level of objectivity. They're coming after, they're coming after me. There are, I'm being pursued. He doesn't really think like, like that because in his mind, he occupies all of the space. Everybody else is effectively the outsiders or irrelevant or comical or foolish because he is the guy at the center. So it's a complicated way that he sees these people. He doesn't really see them as existing in the same universe as he does, having said that, although he still sees other people as thinking that they might be better than he is, more intelligent. You know, that's an, it's an interesting thing that he always comes back to. They think they're more intelligent than I am, but I'm much more intelligent than they are. So it's again, weird, this weird thing in Donald Trump's mind, that it's not enough to see this as insiders, outsiders. It's not enough to see they are either. As I said before, and I'll take it back now, antithesis, thesis and antithesis. It is from the world he's created. He looks out and then he sees these other things going on which he doesn't really understand, doesn't really pay attention to, doesn't really accept as part of reality. And yet there will be that moment when it is a direct comparison of people thinking they are somewhat smarter than he is. And maybe it all comes down to this, this fundamental insecurity about his own intelligence.
- [46:15]
Joanna Coles
For good reason, let me add, for totally good reason. And also the irony that this, this week, and goodness knows, the Obama library has been plagued with delays. But the irony that this week of all weeks, the week when after one of the UFC fights, a fighter had, you know, said on whatever, it was paramount, you know, Michelle Obama is a man, right. That the day after Trump signs his ridiculous memo of understanding that the day after is the opening of the Obama Library, when Michelle Obama is able to remind people that Barack Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize, the one thing that we know Donald Trump definitely wants, and the entire place erupts that it's packed with artists that Trump couldn't possibly have coming to any event he does. We saw his concert fall apart because the artist artists were all pulling out because they'd been misled about what it was. They didn't want to be part of a MAGA event. They don't want to be politicized. And yet here was Stevie Wonder happy to be politicized. Here was the Boss, Bruce Springsteen, happy to nail his colors to the Obama mast, and, you know, George W. Bush walking straight up to Michelle Obama and giving her an enormous embrace and making it very clear that he was no longer part of the. The Trumpian Republican Party, which I guess he made clear before.
- [47:50]
Michael Wolff
We just should be careful in understanding Donald Trump and not to see that he sees this as he sees himself in direct comparison with these people. These people just occupy another world that he has no interest in, that he's rejected, that he has triumphed over in his mind. I will say, though, that in terms of Michelle Obama being a man, that this was a refrain throughout the campaign and early in, well, in 2023, when he still thought that Michelle Obama could be his opponent in the general election and still thought, and if that happened, that she would win. But he would say, well, if she's the opponent, we're going to call her Mike, Mike Obama, because have you seen those big shoulders? Not possible that a woman could have shoulders that big, et cetera, et cetera, that refrain when on a constant basis.
- [48:59]
Joanna Coles
Wow. Well, the two of us should get ourselves to the Obama library at some point. Do you ever go to Chicago
- [49:06]
Michael Wolff
if forced? I have been to Chicago.
- [49:10]
Joanna Coles
It's a beautiful city. A beautiful city. Well, we should. We. I'm very curious to go and have a look at it.
- [49:16]
Michael Wolff
Extremely hot city or an extremely cold city in my experience.
- [49:21]
Joanna Coles
And now it has an extremely provocative new presidential library. I can't say I love the look of it, but I'm told when you actually go in person and it's much more appealing.
- [49:35]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No. And o' Hare airport is really one of the worst. I sound like Donald Trump now. One of the worst.
- [49:46]
Joanna Coles
You do.
- [49:46]
Michael Wolff
And you always. When he says one of the worst, you say one of the worst. What?
- [49:50]
Joanna Coles
I'm going to go and have a glass of rose in the 40 degree temperature and look for some advertisers. Yeah.
- [49:57]
Michael Wolff
And just pay attention to that. It's going to leave a kind of coating in your tongue.
- [50:03]
Joanna Coles
Okay. I will do well. I will brush my teeth before we're back.
- [50:07]
Michael Wolff
Everything, everything is off about this. This is how. How the wine industry created this monstrosity. It's the Donald Trump of wines, actually. I think Donald Trump once had a. A wine label.
- [50:22]
Joanna Coles
Of course he did. He certainly had Trump champagne. We should actually find a bottle of Trump Champagne and ra. To the best limerick person. We've got two limericks today. One From Paul Watson. 8809. Trump is alone and afraid, stewing in the mess that he's made, Knowing the bold letters of gold sporting his name will soon fade. Very good. And a final one from Garfried. There once was a don who'd decree that the maul was his fiefdom to be. When Iran raised the. The stakes and the Senate got shakes, he was picking out drapes for DC
- [51:05]
Michael Wolff
Fantastic.
- [51:07]
Joanna Coles
Which is what you always say.
- [51:09]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, well, it's.
- [51:10]
Joanna Coles
You know what? We should do a book club. We're going to get organized with our book club. We've had our first book choice, which was Scott Anderson's. I'm going to suggest a book next week. I'm wondering if we should do JD Van as a book. But I don't want to encourage people, if they don't want to buy it, to feel forced to buy it. So people take it out of their libraries.
- [51:32]
Michael Wolff
We had another book, City on the Edge by Jonathan Weber, which I'm recommending all over the place.
- [51:38]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so we've got City. Okay, so we've had King of Kings, the Iran book by Scott Anderson. And we've had Jonathan Weber's book, City on the Edge, about Democratic politics in California. Right.
- [51:51]
Michael Wolff
Well, in the rise of the tech industry and the tech monsters.
- [51:56]
Joanna Coles
Yes, the tech monsters. All right. Should we have communion? Finding my faith. Finding my way to faith. Finding My Way Back to Faith, Finding My Way to Royalties by JD Vance.
- [52:15]
Michael Wolff
Well, are we recommending this book? It's a question. What's the book club about? Is these are books that we are recommending or books that we are mocking?
- [52:25]
Joanna Coles
Well, that's a very good point.
- [52:27]
Michael Wolff
I think the J.D. vance book is a newsworthy book. It's not really a book. I mean, and it's not really meant to be a book. It's meant to be an event in his future candidacy.
- [52:45]
Joanna Coles
It's sort of probably a manifesto in some way. A literary manifesto.
- [52:50]
Michael Wolff
No, I think it's probably. It's like a prop. It's a book that no one will ever read because no one ever reads these kind of books because they're not written to be read. It's just a symbol. It gives him a book tour. He can talk about his religious life. It's a phony book. It's not really a book. So we're not going to write recommend this book. Although I will read it and perhaps I'm completely wrong in its.
- [53:20]
Joanna Coles
Well, I will read it.
- [53:22]
Michael Wolff
To take.
- [53:23]
Joanna Coles
Well, I will read it too, because I want to know what he's finding his way back to. And maybe he'll find his way to his wife's podcast, Storytime with the Second Lady.
- [53:34]
Michael Wolff
You'll skim it. You're a skimmer.
- [53:36]
Joanna Coles
I am a bit of a skimmer. I'll skim it.
- [53:42]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think we have nothing else to say after that.
- [53:46]
Joanna Coles
Well, I mean, at least I confessed. I am a skimmer. Of books like J.D. vance's. I've read lots of other books thoroughly, I can assure you of that. But J.D. vance's book I'll probably skim. I'm a skimmer. I've said it. I'm a skimmer.
- [54:03]
Michael Wolff
I will see you on. What day is it today?
- [54:07]
Joanna Coles
Saturday.
- [54:07]
Michael Wolff
I will see you on Tuesday. Thank you, Ryan, Heather, Rachel, John and Neil. I am going to the beach, as you should too.
- [54:23]
Joanna Coles
I'm going to the beach too, but I am going to have a glass of.
- [54:28]
Michael Wolff
I will see you on Tuesday, Joanna.
- [54:30]
Joanna Coles
See you on Tuesday. So the good news is we have so many BBC tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.
- [54:40]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [55:04]
Joanna Coles
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