Intelligence Squared: An Evening with Dan Jones on War, Plague and Lion Hearts (Part One)

Date: October 19, 2025
Guests: Dan Jones (historian, author), Alice Loxton (host, historian)
Producer: Mia Sorrenti

Overview:

This live Intelligence Squared event spotlights acclaimed historian and broadcaster Dan Jones, discussing his transition from nonfiction to fiction with the Essex Dogs trilogy, culminating in the latest release, Lionhearts. Hosted by Alice Loxton, the conversation explores the appeal of the medieval period, the interplay between history and storytelling, and the challenges of rendering war and plague for modern readers. The event is held before a live audience at Smith Square Hall.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dan Jones’ Transition from Nonfiction to Fiction

[05:07–07:45]

• Motivation and Fears:
  • Dan relates longstanding curiosity (and anxiety) about writing fiction after a career in cinematic, biographical nonfiction.
  • “If you wrote a bad novel, it would expose the fact that you didn’t really understand what it meant to be a human being. And that, for me, felt like a much greater level of jeopardy.” – Dan Jones (06:25)
• Catalyst:
  • Interviewed George R.R. Martin in 2019, whose enjoyment and world-building inspired Dan to finally try fiction.
  • Approaching his 40th birthday and his 10th history book, he pitched the Essex Dogs to publishers.
  • “I did want to write a novel, because everyone wants to write a novel because they think they can do it and they'll be so fantastic at it.” – Dan Jones (06:56)

2. The Creative Process: Architect vs. Gardener

[07:53–10:54]

• Jones describes the difference between structured nonfiction (“architect”) and the organic unpredictability of fiction (“gardener”), citing advice from George R. R. Martin.
• “Everything about writing fiction is...different from writing nonfiction... You have to surrender in many ways to the story... find a way to let yourself go and just let this story move.” – Dan Jones (08:29)
• Personal growth through blending both writing forms:
  • “I feel like in the last four years I’ve really kind of developed as a writer more than maybe I had since my early 20s.” – Dan Jones (10:46)

3. Bridging Fiction and Nonfiction in Publishing

[11:20–13:12]

• Discussed the rigidity of publishing categories and Jones’ desire to explore different mediums, always centered on history.
• “I suppose this felt like adding another form of writing...history is the topic. Fiction and nonfiction are my...forms.” – Dan Jones (12:11)
• On engaging readers between genres: uses historical quotations to connect nonfiction roots to his fiction’s narrative.

4. Summary and Historical Context of Lionhearts

[15:22–20:55]

• The first Essex Dogs book: Medieval “D-Day” campaign beginning with the 1346 Normandy landing.
• Second book: Siege of Calais, likened to a “medieval Stalingrad.”
• Lionhearts deals with the aftermath of plague:
  • Avoids “pandemic novel” focus after COVID-19; sets main drama in post-Black Death England, centering on surviving characters reassembling their lives.
  • “There was something much more interesting in writing a post pandemic novel about the Middle Ages than in writing the actual pandemic bit.” – Dan Jones (18:39)
• Introduces plotlines: Loveday trying to live as a landlord in an English coastal town; Romford at Edward III's court in Windsor.

5. Dan Jones’ Enduring Fascination with the Medieval

[23:45–28:18]

• Reveals his “accidental” entry into medieval history, recalling his undergraduate decision influenced by his teacher’s offhand suggestion.
• Explores the enduring pull of the Middle Ages:
  • “This was a time where things were both strange and familiar, often at the same time...that liminal space between the strange and the familiar.” – Dan Jones (26:15)
• Emphasizes the importance of nuance in bridging empathy and historical otherness.

6. Creating Relatable Medieval Characters

[28:18–33:17]

• The “Omaha Beach” thought experiment: Jones’ process began by imagining the 1346 Normandy landing with “ordinary men” as analogues of 1944 D-Day.
• Historical sources for ordinary soldiers are scant; Jones draws on D-Day oral histories, technical research, and his own invention.
• A mix of archetypes and genuine ambiguity:
  • Loveday, “a guy coming to the end of his career deeply uncertain about whether he’s done the right thing,” and Father, a “total bastard” inspired by a local pub landlord.

7. Lionhearts: What to Expect Without Spoilers

[33:17–38:52]

• New setting: For first time, story unfolds primarily in England.
• Focus on the aftermath of the Black Death; Loveday as tavern-keeper trying (and failing) to embrace peace.
• Explores the harsh “Statute of Laborers” wage suppression laws, transforming “dry legislation” into personal stakes.
• Romford’s story: immersed in Windsor Castle’s court politics and the Royal Navy’s preparations against Castilian enemies.
  • "The main enemy at this point is The Castilians and the English are set to fight them at sea. So we got right into the details of building the ships." – Dan Jones (35:48)
• Climax: The Battle of Winchelsea, a chaotic maritime engagement complete with drunken royal parties and abrupt action, inspired by chronicler Jean Froissart.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the risk of writing fiction:
  • “If you wrote a bad novel, it would expose the fact that you didn’t really understand what it meant to be a human being.” – Dan Jones (06:25)
• On the sweet spot in fiction writing:
  • “There’s an amazing point in writing a novel where these characters start doing things on their own...you’re really just clutching at their coattails and trying to keep up.” – Dan Jones (09:30)
• On what fascinates him about the Middle Ages:
  • “This was a time where things were both strange and familiar, often at the same time. And it felt really as sort of on the balance…that liminal space between the strange and the familiar.” – Dan Jones (26:15)
• Introducing Loveday:
  • “Loveday, who showed himself to be a sort of, you know, a guy coming to the end of his career deeply uncertain about whether he's done the right thing in doing all the bad things that he's done, only certain that the thing that sort of motivates him to keep going is to look after the people he now reluctantly has responsibility for.” – Dan Jones (31:32)
• Battle of Winchelsea scene:
  • "...a lovely scene where Chandos, they're pissing it up on deck of the ship going, where are the Castilians? Hey John, play us a tune. And... oh Christ, it’s the Castilians. Oh my God. Okay, Chandos, enough. We’ve got to go get them.” – Dan Jones (38:13)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:24] Alice Loxton’s introduction of Dan Jones and career overview
• [05:07] Dan’s journey from nonfiction to fiction
• [07:53] Architect vs. gardener – differences between fiction and nonfiction writing
• [13:12] The intersection and blurring of fiction and nonfiction in contemporary publishing
• [15:22] Recap of the Essex Dogs trilogy and historical context for Lionhearts
• [23:45] Why the medieval period is so compelling to Dan Jones and to readers
• [28:18] On building relatable medieval characters using D-Day analogies and oral histories
• [33:17] No-spoilers preview of Lionhearts’ structure, themes, and standout scenes

Tone & Atmosphere

The exchange between Dan Jones and Alice Loxton is warm, self-deprecating, and intellectually generous, packed with enthusiasm for historical storytelling. Dan’s humor (“I didn't know I was coming here for therapy!”) and candor about his process makes the conversation inviting for historians and general listeners alike.

Concluding Note

To hear the rest of the conversation and future live events, visit intelligencesquared.com for recordings and membership options.