Ken Rideout (2:40)

That's a great question. You know, there's. There's a part of me that feels a bit narcissistic talking about myself in this story. But I do think that there's a lot of valuable lessons. And if nothing else, I think people should take inspiration in the fact that I think if I can do these things, then anyone can do them. Because for 10 years, I was basically a mediocre drug addict, like, slipping through the cracks of life. And when I started taking extreme responsibility for myself and holding myself accountable, my life improved exponentially. To the point where I'm here talking to you now.

Dr. Radha Modgill (3:16)

Yeah, absolutely. It's an incredible story. You've been through so many different things, which we're going to unpick in the next sort of half an hour or so. But again, one of my real questions when I read this book was what. What drives you or what drove you through all of those obstacles? Was it fear, control? To excel? What was it, do you think that drives you?

Ken Rideout (3:36)

Definitely a lot of fear and insecurity. I had spent so much time. I had wasted so much time wallowing in my addiction that when I finally got sober, I decided I wasn't going to do anything with. With half effort, I was going to go. Go all in on everything that when I started behaving accordingly, everything in my life improved. And it started with just running, showing up, and giving 110% effort. And it carried over into every area of my life.

Dr. Radha Modgill (4:12)

Yeah. Now, the book starts obviously with your childhood and the years when you were growing up, which were really challenging, weren't they? How. Tell us about what happened during your childhood and how those events influenced you and your kind of path and journey forward.

Ken Rideout (4:27)

Yeah. I grew up in a very hostile environment around drug addicts, crime. And I don't know, from my youngest, from my earliest memory, I just didn't feel like I belonged where I was living. All I could focus on was creating a life of organization and control where things weren't so quite hectic and out of control and chaotic and. Which is interesting to then find myself wallowing in addiction years later, which again, what led to the. To the journey to writing this book. Because I figured I would either commit suicide or find a way to win. And that's how desperate I was at the time in my addiction that I figured suicide might be a viable option. Just to give you an idea of how, like, deep in the depths of this, like, depression and addiction I was.

Dr. Radha Modgill (5:29)

Yeah. And I think one of the things that really struck me about your childhood years was not just obviously the challenges, but also the. The impact of the trauma. Because I think what you just said then around trying to find some organization amongst the chaos, I think a lot of us can relate to that in terms of trying to feel emotionally safe, trying to find our place, trying to find where we feel, you know, like we're sort of almost secluded or away from. From things are outside of our control. What do you think? What do you think those events. Do you think there was a particular turning point in your childhood or a few moments maybe where you suddenly realized, actually, I just want some emotional safety. This is something that I'm looking for. And that kind of turns. Turn things forward. You will turn things around for you.

Ken Rideout (6:15)

I wish that I had an easy answer and that I had some mentors and role models that were demonstrating to me the life that I wanted, but I didn't. I just knew that I didn't want the life that I had. And to then be struggling with addiction. I was like, you know, I always tell people, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. And the addiction was basically digging the hole of trauma that I had that I was in from my childhood. It dug the hole deeper. But initially, that's the thing about addiction is initially, you think it's your salvation, and it's helping you cope with the trauma that you have unresolved. But really all it does is push the trauma down deeper and mask it with this addiction. And now you also have an addiction issue to deal with on top of dealing with your unhealed trauma.

Dr. Radha Modgill (7:05)

Yeah. As you say, addiction is one of those things where it's almost like a mechanism, isn't it, where we just try to almost escape from feeling things, coming emotionally numb to what's been happening to us or having to deal with it because we haven't got the strategies, maybe, or we haven't had anyone around us to teach us those strategies to find healthier ways to manage our feelings? Did you find during. Obviously you broke out of that period in terms of those challenges during your childhood, you found your way out. How did you do that? What happened next? After your childhood and growing up, how did you find your way out of that into a different phase, if you like?

Ken Rideout (7:44)

Yeah. Well, when I was. I met my wife and I was still struggling with addiction, and she was kind of aware, but not. Not aware of the depths. And we. We decided that we were going to adopt a child. We were trying to have our own kids. For three years, she went through seven rounds of in vitro fertilization. Unsuccessful. She had three miscarriages. And the adoption just ended up becoming, coming before biological kids. And when we were matched with my daughter, I just said to myself, I cannot live like this with children in the house. I have got to either fix this, or I just can't go on living like this. And that was really the catalyst to get sober. I couldn't really do it for myself. I was having a hard time doing it for my wife. But as soon as children came into the picture, I decided, okay, that's it. I've got to fix this right now. And essentially I did. I went to an outpatient detox facility in New York. They were giving me different medications to assist with the withdrawal symptoms. So they would give me Ritalin to stay awake during the day, Xanax to go to sleep at night. I was just in a, like, on a drug cocktail, trying to survive the week of withdrawals. And then once I got through a week of sobriety or with off opioids, I could then get a shot of a drug called Vivitrol that was an opioid blocker. And that was basically like an insurance policy. You. You can't get high from those kind of drugs with Vivitrol in your system. So once I had that and it was like a, like I said, an insurance policy, I then just started treating my mental and physical health as the top priority in my life, which it should be for everyone, because without your. Without your mental and physical health, you're really useless to everyone. So I literally just started running 10 miles every day, running and running. And I wasn't a very good runner. I would just. But I had incredible determination and willpower and discipline. More than anything. The discipline of all the things that have been displayed in the course of my life, is by far the most important element. Because, you know, if you. If you have a life without discipline is. Makes you slave to your emotions. Like, you wake up and you decide you don't feel like working out or you feel like eating terrible today or having a cheat day, that becomes a cheat week. And at least for me, one bad one lapse in judgment can lead to, like, a few days of lapse, and then it becomes an addiction. And I just know that I have a very addictive personality. So I try to stay dialed in all the time. And then this. My method in my lifestyle isn't for everyone. It's very intense, and it. But it works for me. I'm just trying to figure out. You know, a lot of times people will say to me, maybe you traded one addiction for the other. And I say, yeah, maybe that's true, but one addiction had me suicidal and one has me feeling proud of myself. And being on a podcast with people like yourself.

Dr. Radha Modgill (10:48)

Absolutely. And actually a couple of things come out of that for me from what you just said. One is the incredible power and gift of love, as you said. You know, when you and your wife decided to adopt your daughter, you know, that. That love we find really difficult to find for ourselves. And that care we really find difficult to give ourselves when. When. It's funny, isn't it, when we almost have to do it for someone else, someone else that we love or somehow we can, we can use that, can't we? We can use that. So that. How, how that gift of love for your adopted daughter transformed your attitude to yourself indirectly or via two or three steps to actually caring for yourself, which I think is so relatable to so many people. We can, we can do it for other people, but it's so hard, isn't it? For ourselves.

Ken Rideout (11:34)

Yeah, that's the thing about, like, the way you talk to yourself is critically important. You know, I always tell people, whatever you think about yourself, it's true. So if you have a high opinion of yourself, that can be true by def fault. But at the same time, if you speak poorly to yourself with a lot of negative self talk and have a negative self view, that can be true too. Like. But the nice thing is you can control that. So I always tell people, focus on the positives, you know, speak nicely to yourself, but give yourself a reason to talk nice, like, show to be, be a disciplined person. That's free. Everything that I've accomplished in my life is free to anyone. You see, like from reading the book, there's no secret formula. There's nothing like, I did something so extraordinary, you know, it's earth shattering. But what it did demonstrate was what discipline and hard work and determination can do for a very average person.

Dr. Radha Modgill (12:24)

And I think you pick up on something really important. There is the word discipline. Because so often in my life I'm passionate about understanding how we can make changes in our lives, how we can, you know, really kind of turn things around if we want to and what the secret to that is and how it's different for different people. And for many years in my life, I was thinking, well, it's about belief, it's about believing yourself. But actually I'm coming to the conclusion more and more and definitely from Reading your book that actually is about action and discipline and perseverance is about those kind of doing words rather than just belief. Because as you say, emotions and beliefs, they can come and go, they can fluctuate, they're not very solid. So I'm interested in that word kind of discipline and action for people kind of listening or people about to read your book or have read your book. What would be your advice about how they can find more discipline or action to make something change in their life? What would you say to them?

Ken Rideout (13:17)

Yeah, well, I think that that's a perfect segue into the title of the book. Everything you want is on the other side of hard. Like you shouldn't expect discipline. And all the things that I demonstrate in the book to be easy. None of it's easy, but if it was easy, every idiot would be doing it. This is hard for a reason. The fact that it's hard is what makes discipline so appealing. But again, it's readily available to anyone. So you can either make excuses or you can find a way to win. But again, if I did this, anyone can do this. I spent 10 years as a, like, daily drug user and I decided that I've had enough. And I just. Like I said, I wish there was an easy answer, but there's not. And again, that's what makes these accomplishments appealing to others, is they're hard, but they're available to anyone.

Dr. Radha Modgill (14:04)

Yeah. Which is reassuring, I think, in a world that's really overwhelming at the moment and people are feeling really sort of strained, I think, in so many different ways. So knowing that kind of. Knowing that these are accessible, as you said before, free things, I think is helpful because so much of that sometimes becomes intangible. I want to talk about your running now, because obviously the very act of running and exercise, you know, we know the science and the research behind it, we know why that works in terms of helping us feel better. All the kind of hormonal and chemical balance to that. But there's also a different side to it as well, isn't. There's a. There's the scientific sort of side of it and what's happening in our bodies. But I think there's also another layer which you talked about earlier, which is that sort of self trust that once you find something to do that helps you, that makes you feel better, you can focus on you almost. You almost kind of get this idea or this trust in yourself that no matter what life throws at you, you've got a strategy or you've got something to go to that you are in control of that will help you feel better. Is that how it was for you when you started running?

Ken Rideout (15:09)

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the running is. Is people asking about a runner's eyes. And I never feel so happy during the run as when I'm finished. If anything, just getting that first win in the day. If nothing else happens today, I know that I've run 10 miles, and I've been doing that for five years every single day. I've run about 4,000 miles a year, which is average 10.6 miles a day, every day for five years, with zero missed. I mean, occasionally I would miss a dad. I had an. I had a shoulder surgery. I missed a few days. They said enough to move it for four weeks, but after four days, I was back to running 10 miles a day. Yeah, like I said earlier, the discipline will set you free. Like, that's one less thing I think about is because I know I'm running no matter what. Like, I'm getting up and running and, you know, my. My wife, my children, there's a lot of people watching me, especially now with the book and social media. So it's almost like a responsibility to demonstrate to people how continue that again, if I can do this, anyone can do this. I have no special skills.

Dr. Radha Modgill (16:18)

And tell us about your incredible achievements as a runner and what some of those experiences were like. So, you know, I referenced in the introduction about you running the Gobi March. What was that like? And tell us mentally, I guess, how you would approach a challenge like that and how you sustained it, because obviously that's an extreme. But I think for people listening, if they're facing a challenge in their own lives, some of those life lessons, I think, are really relatable and they could learn from. So tell us about that. Tell us how you did that.

Ken Rideout (16:48)

Yeah, well, a friend of mine told me he was doing the race about four or five weeks before it started, which isn't a lot of time to prepare. I mean, I had been running, obviously, every day, but it was incredibly challenging because I had never run with a backpack. I had never slept in a tent. Like, I genuinely knew nothing about this sport. And. But, you know, it was an interesting challenge, and I don't know why it spoke to me and challenged me, but it did. And I started. I. I got all the gear that I needed. There was a ton of equipment and to. To learn about and. But like anything else, I just jumped in with both feet, ordered the equipment that I thought I needed, started experimenting with different packs. Running in Nashville in the. In the, you know, sweltering heat and showed up there completely unprepared. I arrived in ulaanbaatar less than 24 hours before the race started, which was a huge mistake. And I got smashed. The first day I came in, like, fourth. And then the second day, I came in second, but I fell down towards the end of the stage and broke my elbow open, ripped the backpack strap off. It was a catastrophe. And after the third day, a woman who dropped out gave me her pack, so at least I had a bag to finish the race.

Dr. Radha Modgill (18:02)

It's incredible, isn't it? From all of those practical things alongside the mental challenge of it. There are a lot of themes in this book, and one of them that struck me, I think, was again, about love, but also about leadership and about how I felt you were such a role model to your family. Tell us a bit more about how you see leadership and I guess, who inspires you in terms of being a good leader and how important is it?

Ken Rideout (18:29)

Yeah, I wish. I wish I had a spiritual leader or advisor or guru. I didn't really have any role models growing up. I just knew I needed to. I wanted to be different. And, you know, now with wife and children especially, my children are 10, 12, 14, and 15, like, they watch everything that I do. I always tell people, your kids will hear some of what you tell them, but they'll see everything you show them. And I demonstrate to them daily discipline and being a leader. To me, the same thing I say about the children, I say about everything is like, just demonstrate with, through your own behavior how things should be done. And you'll be shocked at how many people will follow you and believe in you. But until you, like, start winning, no one wants to come and celebrate with you. It's like chicken and the egg. So, yeah, we all want to be celebrated and recognized, but you have to go out and, like, toil and darkness and anonymity on your own for a long time before anyone cares outside of your family.

Dr. Radha Modgill (19:28)

One of your really important mantras, I think, is win or die trying. In the book, were you always, like, a highly competitive person or are you competing with yourself?

Ken Rideout (19:42)

Always competing with myself. I mean, I. I'm highly competitive with others, too, but not like I am with myself.

Dr. Radha Modgill (19:51)

And in terms of. I mean, that. That's an incredible thing to. To have. In terms of, like, always, always wanted to improve, always wanted to get better. But what happens then when things don't go so well, when you fail? And there are. There are times in this book when you have failed when things haven't gone so well. How do you deal with failure and what's the role of failure? I think, you know, how do we deal with that in life?

Ken Rideout (20:15)

Yeah. I mean, the first time I qualified for the Ironman in Hawaii, I got there and I had spent so much time trying to qualify to get into the race that I forgot that I actually had to show up in good shape and finish the race. And I got out on the run and I quit for no reason. Reason other than it was discom. It was uncomfortable. And I walked back to get my bike feeling like a complete failure and a loser. And I swore to myself that I would never give up on myself again and I would never feel like this again because I would almost rather be dead than feel the way I did. And that definitely fueled a lot of the wins that I've had since then. And. But, you know, without going through in those failures and having losses and setbacks, you don't. It's hard to learn very much about yourself.

Dr. Radha Modgill (20:57)

Yeah. And you have been through the book. I mean, you've gone through many, many difficult times, many challenges and obstacles, and some of them quite extreme. I mean, in terms of your addiction, there's quite a number of references to you relapsing and then recovering again. And there's a long journey, which I appreciated because I think sometimes when we talk about addiction, it's sometimes dealt with in quite a superficial way and people think it's a linear. A linear course. But you really, I think, explore that in your book, that the realistic journey of. Of addiction. How important is that to get out there for people who might need that advice or support or not to feel so alone potentially with relapse.

Ken Rideout (21:38)

Yeah, listen, most people go through. Through relapses. When you're that deep in addiction, it's hard to just like very few people have a perfect story where they're like, I quit using drugs on this date, and now I've been sober for, you know, 18 months. Like, it's great when they do and I love it and I wish I could do it, but it just isn't that easy. And what I would caution anyone is like, in hearing these stories, your. The overriding theme should be, like, don't get started in the first place. This is the loser's journey. Like, this is not fun, and I wouldn't wish this on anyone. But you also have to show yourself some grace, but you also have to give. Be disciplined and honest with yourself. Like, there's no real excuses. You either doing it or you're not doing it it.

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Dr. Radha Modgill (27:20)

And what would you say to people who potentially are struggling with addiction, who Might be listening. What would be your kind of top bit of advice for them?

Ken Rideout (27:27)

Listen, I. Again, I wish that I could tell you everything you want to hear. But like, if you're suffering with a physical addiction, like opioids, you should know like, you're going through a week or two weeks of life very difficult to do days and dark days, but there's only one way out of the flames and that's through them. And like I said, I wish that I could tell you things were going to be easy and there won't be a challenge, but that would be naive.

Dr. Radha Modgill (27:56)

It strikes me that your part of your recovery was the people around you, your family and friends and people who were there to support you, who actually helped you, you maintain that journey. Would that be. Would that be right?

Ken Rideout (28:09)

Yeah, well, I, I've always like, suffered in silence and darkness, so I didn't really confide in many people about my addiction until it was like behind me. But I. Yeah, I mean like, in life the only person you can absolutely count on is yourself. And. But if, if you can't get sober for yourself, it's going to be very hard to do it for someone else. So you really have to like, have a come to Jesus moment of understanding. Like, there's only one. There's one person got me into this jam and there's only person that's getting. Only one person getting me out of this jam, and that's me.

Dr. Radha Modgill (28:44)

Through the book. Something which really struck me was how very self aware you are of what's happening. Maybe that's something that's come now after sort of many years of kind of reflection. I don't know if it was present at the time, but also how aware you are of your own coping mechanisms and how you deal with that. That my one question, I guess to you is you've come overcome so many different challenges. Have you got any obstacles still left to overcome?

Ken Rideout (29:11)

Yeah, I would say being a good husband and a good dad is not something that is, I think, easy. I wish it was, but it definitely takes a lot of work because, you know, one thing I tell my wife all the time is like, we're, we're. We each have our own life. We didn't sign up to like give our existence away to our children, to each other. So it's important that we have our own individual things in life. Running happens to be mine, but that she has her own things. But at the end of the day that we're all working towards a common goal and lifting each other up and yeah, trying to be a. A good husband and a good dad. It. It isn't easy at times. You know, like, life's happening. The kids are leaving stuff all over the house. And. And I. They're 10, 12, 14, and 15. And I'm like, who left this milk out? Get. Get over here. Pick this up, you know, and my wife will be like, you know, when I'm y. Kids, like, hey, you know, he's five, right? So that's something that I'm definitely working on is being a better dad and better husband.

Dr. Radha Modgill (30:17)

I'm sure you're already a fantastic one, and I'm sure the role modeling you're giving your children, especially through this book. Have your children read the book?

Ken Rideout (30:25)

Yeah, they've all read it.

Dr. Radha Modgill (30:27)

Yeah. And what's their feedback been?

Ken Rideout (30:30)

They had lots of questions about drugs, but it was good because I said, look, this. Hopefully this paints a picture of how ugly drugs really are and scares you from doing them. They love it, though. Like, that's the greatest gift in the world is watching my children feel proud of me amongst their friends. You know, like, for a long time, they. My daughter especially would be like, you guys can drop me right here. I said, you don't want your. Your friends to see us dropping you off? Are you crazy? We're the coolest parents in town. And she's like, dad, stop. You know, it's just. It's funny because you. Do you have children?

Dr. Radha Modgill (31:07)

No, not yet. No.

Ken Rideout (31:09)

Okay. Because when you have children, you always think like, oh, my kids are going to be like this, like that. You think you're going to get what you get what you get, and you don't get upset. They're like. It is a mystery. My kids are so different. They're all kind and nice little kids, but they are so wildly different academically, socially. It's crazy.

Dr. Radha Modgill (31:30)

Yeah. Like a chocolate box. You don't know what you're going to get, but it's going to be good.

Ken Rideout (31:34)

Exactly.

Dr. Radha Modgill (31:34)

It's going to be good.

Ken Rideout (31:36)

And yes, you hope.

Dr. Radha Modgill (31:38)

Absolutely. Absolutely. You end the book really powerfully, actually. And I think this is probably one of the most important things that I took away from the book was that you sort of reflected on all the kind of obstacles and challenges that you've been through, but really powerfully. Right. Then you come back to you as a little boy and you say that you'd like to have given that little boy everything that they needed at the time. And you'd like to say to them that actually it's not going to be easy, but There is, you know, that once you come over these obstacles, there is something else on the other side. How important do you think it is for us to still think of ourselves, even though we're adults sometimes, as that kind of inner child, and to kind of talk to ourselves and give ourselves what we need or perhaps what we didn't have or we weren't given when we were little.

Ken Rideout (32:24)

I think it's important, especially you've had some success in your life and you've overcome some obstacles to acknowledge those things. It's important to celebrate your wins, show yourself some grace, and be kind to yourself. Because, you know, a lot of times we talk to ourselves in ways we would never talk to our friends or enemies. You know, we. We. We are very harsh on ourselves. And. And I still am. But I also try to make time to recognize, like, wow, I did this, like, with the book. I've been working on it so long that when I see it, I'm like, yeah, it's my book. But I. The truth is I need to, like, look at it and be like, holy shit, I did this. Wow. Look at it like, this is real. And. But that. I do that with a lot of things. If I win a marathon or I win a big race. My first instinct. And I hate that this is it. But I always think, like, oh, it wasn't very competitive. The best runners weren't here. And that's just not nice.

Dr. Radha Modgill (33:20)

So often I think we are our own worst enemies, aren't we? We're the obstacle to ourselves, ironically. But once we tap into that and we see that, we can start changing it. Like you've been talking about, like you write about in your book. And that is so powerful. That's the answer to. And it's funny, isn't it? In the world we live in, people concentrate on mastering this and mastering that, but they don't necessarily focus so much on mastering ourselves when that is the basis of everything and every good thing that comes from life. And I think your book illustrates that so, so beautifully. Do you ever think back to that teenager or that little boy or that person who was addicted and think, God, I don't recognize that that person. Sometimes there are phases in our life when we almost feel like, was that me or was that another person?

Ken Rideout (34:09)

Yeah, it's. When I reflect back on my life, I'm like, a lot of this stuff is just so surreal. Like, I just can't believe that I've created the life that I've. That I've dreamed of. And it hasn't it hasn't always been easy, but in a lot of ways, it's a survival story, right? I'm like, moving from one chapter to the other, and I'm just trying to. To figure it out as I go. And I know that when. When I look at things as a whole, it looks impressive as an entire journey, but it's like, when I started running, I didn't think I was going to win marathons. I thought, if I can just run every day this week, that will be. I can't get high and run, so let me focus all my energy on running. And it was like the universe rewarded me by making me a good runner. And it was like the hotter I worked, the luckier I got with the running. And, you know, that's what I hope that people, when they, when they read the book, recognize that all the good things that you want in your life are going to come with a struggle. Like, it's not easy to be a doctor. It's not easy to start a podcast. Like, anyone can do it, and there's a million of them. How do you break through all the noise? Like, it's going to be hard, but it sounds cliche, but everything that you want is going to be hard. If it wasn't hard, you probably wouldn't waste your time wanting or desiring it.

Dr. Radha Modgill (35:26)

That's true. So true. And you find out so much about yourself through that, through that difficulty, don't you? You really find out who you are, who. Who around you is there for you when you need them. And I think that, again, that brings me back to kind of my final point. The. I think the really, really powerful thing about your book is the level of authenticity, truthfulness, how candid you are. Because I know my job as a doctor, and talking to people who are going through struggles, the most powerful thing that we can do is to support someone, to not feel alone. And your authenticity that comes out so beautifully in this book really makes you. When you're reading, it really makes you feel like you are not on your own, like you understand. And it's very. You know, people are sharing more and more these days, their lives, but your book really, really is so authentic. You can feel the feelings that you're describing. You can. Can almost visualize the situations you're in. And I think that really strikes through for me as the reader. So thank you for that. It was absolutely beautiful to read. My last question for you is probably one you get asked a lot, but I'm still going to ask it because I think it's a helpful question. What is the one lesson or the one thing that you want people to take away from your book? Why I asked you at the beginning why you wrote this book. Now I'm going to ask you what you want people to take away from it.

Ken Rideout (36:49)

I hope that people take away from this that discipline is the answer to everything. Discipline is what really sets you free. Living a life of discipline, taking extreme responsibility for your own mental and physical health. Your mental and physical health is your number one responsibility. No one is going to come tell you what to eat, whether you should exercise. You know what to do. Stop making excuses and just do the work. Because there's no shortcuts in life.

Dr. Radha Modgill (37:18)

Life.

Ken Rideout (37:19)

The, the, the easy road never pays well. The difficult road is where all the magic happens. And while the stairway to heaven can feel like hell and the stairway to hell can feel like heaven until you reach your destination. So it's everything you want is the things that you are worth working for, are very hard and but you should be you you should condition your mind to be comfortably uncomfortable and be comfortable with challenges and be comfortable with discomfort. And you'll know. You'll never know freedom like a disciplined person because it all starts and ends with discipline.

Dr. Radha Modgill (38:02)

That's so beautiful. I love that. Thank you so much Ken. It's been absolutely fantastic to talk to you. I want to thank you for a fascinating conversation. The book again is Everything youg Want is on the Other side of Heart and it's available now at your local bookshop. I'm Dr. Radha Modgill and you've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Connor Boyle and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings. Become a member at intelligentsquared.com forward/membership and to join us at future live events. You can find our full events program and buy tickets over@intelligence intelligencesquared.com forward/att. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.

Ken Rideout (38:59)

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