Moderator (4:14)

A Riviera?

Christiane Amanpour (4:15)

It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell because right now there's this yellow line going down the center of Gaza, which is pretty much making an Israeli zone, Israeli occupied zone and a Palestinian Hamas zone. So they have this Board of Peace, which, I mean, I don't know what it's doing and who's part of it. I mean, I think people like Jared Kushner and Steven Witkoff want to try to make a better world for Palestinians there, but I'm not sure that the Israeli government does. And I think there's still quite a lot of. Of head butting, even between the Netanyahu government and the Trump administration, even how close the Trump administration is to them. I know from reports and watching that there's still Israeli bombings and killings. And then on the west bank, there is annexation by another name. The parliament there just granted a law or amended a law to allow settlers and those who are in, according to the international community, illegally occupying the west bank to buy Palestinian land. So there's that. That suddenly happened. They continue, as we see. And we have it reported that to allow the settlers to attack villages, farmland, people, and by and large, the police and security forces stand by or help them. And there is what the Palestinians fear and what I heard from inside Munich in terms of diplomats essentially annexation by another name. So this is a huge, big problem.

Moderator (5:58)

And the Board of Peace, kaia Kallis, the EU's High Representative for foreign affairs, has accused Trump of using it as a personal vehicle. Or is it, as some people suggest, a way of bypassing the UN entirely.

Christiane Amanpour (6:12)

All of the above. You know, I mean, you have to understand that there's no philosophy, there's no grand unifying thread of policy on the international stage from this administration. I think it's all very a la carte. And I mean, the fact of the matter is that the UN has been enfeebled, but the UN is literally the only game in town when it comes to the humanitarian needs of Gaza. I mean, less also on the west bank, but Gaza is, as you know, encircled and barricaded.

Moderator (6:50)

But the UN has been pretty much kicked out, hasn't it?

Christiane Amanpour (6:53)

Yeah, but they still have workers there. I ran into Philippe Lazzarini, the head of unwa, the UN work, et cetera, who are responsible for delivering aid and this and that, and the schools for the children. I mean, there are. There's a whole generation of children who have missed out on education. Schools have been bombed, universities have been bombed, libraries have been bombed. And the un, which understood how to deliver aid and not give it to Hamas and not give it to, you know, not get it stolen, they're not allowed to do it. So even the aid going in is, as far as we know from what we. Again, I'm not there, but as far as we know from everybody we speak to, a, there's not enough, and B, it's not necessarily getting to the people it needs to, because there are a lot of gangs there. There is probably a lot of criminality. Hamas is in charge of that still. So, you know, what happened to disarming Hamas? What happened to it? It's just like nothing's happened. Where's the International stabilization Force? All these things that this ceasefire, which was signed, I think it was back in October 2024, listed. We're not there yet. You know, they talk about a second phase starting. Presumably that's about the. The stabilization force and all the rest of it. And there is a senior Bulgarian diplomat who's been tasked on this peace board to fix it. But he hasn't been able to get in yet. I saw him in Munich, too. I said, why aren't you in Gaza?

Moderator (8:30)

Interesting. Well, I think the Indonesians might be sending some troops. But, yes, you're absolutely right. When you think about then, the division and Marco Rubio, I think there is a real openness on the part of the administration that they do see themselves as remaking the world order. When you see the sort of divisions that have emerged and perhaps more positively, the new alliances, perhaps, that are also being made, who's the beneficiary? Is it China?

Christiane Amanpour (8:57)

So that's another thing that people were saying. China has been put up by European leaders, by the United States as the biggest competitor. They're not yet ready to say adversary, but the biggest challenger and the biggest competitor to our world order. We know that we don't want to live in a Chinese world as a Xi Chinese world, which has zero respect for human rights, which is a massive surveillance state, which doesn't allow politics, which is all about, you know, the economy, but no freedoms, no political freedoms. And yet every time I do a segment on alienating this country or that country, the Trump administration, they say, the next thing you know, they're going to China, literally. Where did Prime Minister Carney go? Where did Prime Minister Starmer go right after Davos, to China when President Trump gave that very, very long, long, long, rambling speech where he dissed everybody and anybody. I mean, can you imagine if you were the president of Switzerland, remember what he said? She just rubbed me the wrong way. Boom. 39% tariffs.

Moderator (10:13)

Yeah. He also talked about, you would be speaking. You would be speaking German.

Christiane Amanpour (10:18)

I mean, it's all this stuff Switzerland. But the big picture is, the big picture is Europe has to stand on its own two feet. Everybody, including the new Japanese prime minister, they're all putting a lot more of their GDP into the military because even they don't know whether the US Is going to. To be their umbrella, as they have been for a long, long time. China is, according to Trump, again, I don't know. One day he'll say one thing about Taiwan, the next day, the next thing. So I don't know where the US Stands on Taiwan right now. I don't. But I do know that President Xi is watching all of this very carefully and in their way as they do, not speaking much and just doing stuff. And Xi so far has come out ahead in this, whatever you want to call it, swinging of appendages on tariffs. So Trump puts whatever 50% tariffs on there. Xi says, oh, Critical minerals, rare earths, not having them. And then Trump has to pull back now. Now there's going to be a meeting, apparently a summit between them and we'll really see what happens. We'll really see whether there's some kind of coherent economic and political situation that evolves from that. It's beneficial to the United States and to the rest of the world.

Moderator (11:44)

Mark Carney, the Canadian Prime Minister made that extraordinary speech which everybody thought was really sort of groundbreaking at Davos, talking about there needing to be that we've been through a rupture and we need to rethink the way we see the world. Are you surprised that there hasn't been more overt new alliance making?

Christiane Amanpour (12:03)

There is a lot of alliance, new alliance making. And what he's talking about is more sort of, it's an overused term, but it's the term that's being used and it's called coalitions of the willing. You know, coalitions being made between various groups on certain issues and other groups on other issues, rather than the big overarching coalition which would be the United States and all its NATO allies and all its EU allies and all its Asian allies and etc. Etc. With a much more global feel towards it. This whole thing that we haven't really mentioned and I don't even know whether it exists or are we just trying to find reason in all of this, the spheres of influence. So if the United States is claiming the Western hemisphere de facto, it means that Russia gets to do its own area and China, the rest in Asia. I don't know whether that's going to come true. But the overarching, again, I don't know. It's sad to say the overused term, but it was post 1945 US led liberal global economic world order which brought peace and prosperity the likes of which didn't exist before World War II. Right. It was like everybody was at war all the time.

Moderator (13:25)

But isn't the answer, well, not the answer, but isn't one answer to this that actually the prosperity part of that equation hadn't been experienced by many people in the US And Europe for some time, which is how we arrived?

Christiane Amanpour (13:41)

Yes, it's true and no, it's not true because yes, compared to what? Certainly more prosperous than it had been before this all went into effect. And I think what you have is potentially bad policies that, that, I mean many countries are oligarchies. You know, there's such a disparity between the haves and the have nots, wealth Inequality. And this is what's driving a lot of this. Right? This is really what's driving a lot of this. Then you have politicians who clearly know how to play to the base, how to weaponize fear, whether it's about the other, whether it's about free trade, whether it's about democracy, whatever it might be. And all of this creates this horrendous perfect storm that has brought us to this place, essentially where we are now. But you know, what bothers me is, I mean, as an analyst, I think I'm fairly rational. If you destroy everything, surely before you destroy it all, you need to have a plan B for what you're going to replace it with.

Moderator (14:54)

It's easy to break things.

Christiane Amanpour (14:56)

It's easy to break things. And when you do it on a global scale, though, you just have no idea where it's all going to fall out.

Moderator (15:03)

And yeah, I want to talk about actually the other factor in all of this, which is the media environment we find ourselves in. Before I do that, I just want to remind you we're going to come to you very shortly for questions. So do think about what you want to ask. Lots, I'm sure, to get into. So the media environment. You have been a TV journalist.

Christiane Amanpour (15:21)

I just say journalist.

Moderator (15:23)

Well, I use the TV part of it because it kind of. The reference, I think is important. But what we're seeing is a transformation both in the broadcast world of media and in the print world. That's the distinction I want to make. What do you think? Do you think we understand what we're losing and what does it mean for democracy and for the kind of government that we have going forward? The fact that our media environment is now as polarized as our politics in some ways?

Christiane Amanpour (15:54)

Well, it's very bad. It's really bad. It's very dangerous. It bodes very, very, very badly. I remember even a few years ago, before we were at this terrible, almost rock bottom that we're at now, people used to come up to me and say, you know, I don't know where to find the truth. And it was like a dagger to my heart, you know, I mean, I've spent my whole career trying to bring people truth, which is based on facts and empirical evidence and based on us going there and actually gathering the facts and bringing it back. Then people can have their own opinions, but we at least had a set of facts and evidence that people could agree existed. Whether they agreed with it or not, they agreed that it exists. Like this carpet is black. Yeah, see, that's the problem and so this is really bad. Plus, I mean, you know, I'm preaching to everybody who understands this. We've all been siloed. We've all been weaponized. Everywhere we look. There's almost no room for any. For people to hold two thoughts in their head at the same time, two conflicting thoughts in their head at the same time, to even speak to people, whether it's in their family, whether it's at work, whether it's on the bigger playing field, to even speak to people who have other political opinions or other ideas about things, that's gone now. Everybody's the enemy. And I was listening to the wonderful American historian, presidential historian John Meacham. He said, look, parties have always been different. Political parties exist by being different. They have to convince the public that what they stand for is better than what the other stands, and vice versa. But now it's not just differences. It's, you are the enemy, you are my mortal enemy, and I have to kill you. In other words, I mean, I'm talking metaphorically sometimes, really, but it's a zero sum game. And when that happens, it just removes any ability for any kind of texture, any depth, any thought, any investigation, any nuance. And it's a very, very scary thing because we live right now in. In a world where leaders understand this, and I can pick leaders out, and I'm not going to name them now, but for many authoritarian and illiberal countries all around the world who understand that the first thing you have to do is essentially crush the free and independent press. So in this country, it's fighting for its life. In the United States, it's fighting for its life. Around the world, it's fighting for its life. But it still exists. There are a number, obviously, of newspapers and television stations and radio news stations. You notice I leave podcasts out for the moment deliberately, because I have one. I'll tell you about it in a minute. But there's a reason why we call it legacy media. Because for generations, we have worked for organizations that have existed because of their proven credibility, because of their proven ability and willingness to do the dangerous work of either, you know, uncovering crimes and investigations and corruption at home or going abroad and putting their lives on the line to tell and get the truth from abroad. This stuff doesn't happen much anymore. I mean, there are less foreign journalists being sent abroad across the board. I'm telling you, in every country, money, money, money, money. And what happens is everybody sits back and they just opine from their armchairs and stuff like that. And Then you've got social media, which doesn't give a flying about what's true and what's not true. And the algorithm. Can you imagine? There's even this player called the algorithm. Where is the algorithm? How can I fight the algorithm? And yet it's telling everybody what to think. I mean, it's scary stuff. So it's putting us all in these silos and corners and we can't meet. And it's really bad. It's bad for you. See, as people say, there's a lot of information about, but not much knowledge. Not enough knowledge.

Moderator (20:06)

Do you think? Would you draw a straight line between the evisceration of the media as we knew it and the rise of the algorithm and our willingness to succumb to. To autocracy?

Christiane Amanpour (20:18)

Look, I don't know. I mean, if you look at a country like the United States, they've never felt this threat before. I don't know what would have happened if they had this threat 10 years ago. I don't know what the reaction would be. So I can't really answer that question. But I definitely do believe that when you weaken the free and independent press, everything else gets weaker too, because it is one of the. One of the most important pillars of a democracy, of civil society and a basic, healthy society. A free and independent press is the bottom line. And even in America, they call it the fourth estate because of the protections of the First Amendment and where journalism stands and freedom of expression and speech stands. And it was. I think it's Thomas Jefferson. I'm not going to be able to repeat it exactly. But Founding father, he basically was very, very, very cognizant of the necessity for a powerful economic, independent press to hold people like him and leaders accountable. And he said, if it was my choice to have a government without press or press without government, I would choose to have a press without government. That's how much he believed in the power and the necessity of the press in its best form.

Moderator (21:34)

Now, you said that you were going to leave podcasts out. I have my own issues with podcasts, but we'll. We can ignore those for now. Yours is a rather good podcast. How does it work?

Christiane Amanpour (21:44)

Okay, so mine, guys, please subscribe. Is called the X File. No. Christiana Manpour presents the X Files with Jamie Rubin. And it's with my ex husband talking about silos. We're trying to prove that even an ex married couple can actually have a civilized and intelligent discussion about things other than ourselves and our relationship and bring some light. So that's what we do every week

Moderator (22:11)

and it has to be said a couple that both had ringside seats at some of the most extraordinary events. Him from the sort of diplomatic internal administration perspective and you within the press corps, it does make for a great conversation.

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Moderator (24:01)

Right time for your questions. I can whitter on for hours. I'm going to ask you to wait till the microphone gets to you and what I might do is take a couple at a time so we can get through a few and whilst we find microphones and perhaps have a little bit of light on the audience because at the moment I couldn't see a microphone even if it stayed. Ah, nah.

Christiane Amanpour (24:22)

Brilliant.

Moderator (24:23)

Okay.

Christiane Amanpour (24:24)

Can't see a thing though, can we?

Moderator (24:26)

I can see a little bit now. So I'm going to start on that corner if I may. And there's a yes at the front there. Hand up. Yes just there.

Alex Honnold (24:34)

Yes.

Mia Sorrenti (24:35)

Hi, my name's Ellen. Thank you. Sorry, I'll stand. Thank you very much for this evening. It's been really, really great. I'm a student journalist and I'm studying to go into broadcast and I was wondering if a you have any advice on getting into the industry but also what you think the industry that I'm hopefully going to be working in in the future is going to look like because with everything changing so much, I guess the skills I'm currently learning could be wildly different than those that are needed in 20 years time.

Christiane Amanpour (25:00)

Well, I don't know what you're studying, but I think the good thing is that you're at the beginning of your career so you have a lot of choice. It's not like you've been doing something and suddenly you're in the middle of your career and the whole business model has been turned upside down. So I think that's good. I think obviously where everything is going is in the digital sphere, which is just another platform. It doesn't change in my opinion anyway, it shouldn't. The content and the integrity of the journalism, it's just how you put it out there and how people consume it, the content. But look, I think you can see even in the films that are out and the documentaries that get awarded and stuff, storytelling matters. I've always said this. I think if you want to be a journalist, you must make sure that you go out into the field, whether it's in your own country or elsewhere. Don't sit in, in headquarters and do stuff on a typewriter or a computer because that dates me. Go out there, okay? Because storytelling is it. Storytelling matters. And I genuinely believe, honestly I do believe that some of the places where journalists aren't right now and where they should be would have a material impact on shoving the story into a place where it cannot be avoided or ignored, you know, under the noses of leaders. And would make them, I think, act more quickly and seriously. And we witnessed this throughout the 90s, whether it was Bosnia or elsewhere. So don't lose faith in that. And as I said, there's many legacy organizations that are still doing unbelievable jobs. Cnn, BBC. And actually we were speaking back. So we, I hope, I hope, because BBC was where I got my very first internship was when I was in college in the United States. I came two summers at the World Tonight. This is the World Tonight. Yes, absolutely.

Moderator (26:59)

Worked with Robin.

Christiane Amanpour (27:00)

You know, my parents, they were so sweet. They would sit in the kitchen of our apartment and they would listen every night. I did nothing that they could listen to. I was just, you know, but they would listen. It was really good moral support. But there's so much good work still going on in the United States here, everywhere. Newspapers, which are also obviously digital products right now. But I was just going to say that I really hope that the BBC doesn't talk itself into a position of weakness and that defends itself because One of the things that we're lacking now more and more is serious public service broadcasting. And the United States is fully under attack. And we need it. Yeah, we need it. We really do need it. And the BBC has to fight for its survival and not allow it because it's just so important. And not just the news, all the other programming around it. I mean, David Attenborough, everything else.

Moderator (28:01)

There's actually, if I'm going to put my two pennies worth in there, which is to say there's a public consultant, if you believe in the BBC, go and fill it in. You can find it online. There's a hand up there. Yes. And then I'm gonna. I'm gonna take two, if I may, Christiane.

Christiane Amanpour (28:14)

So we get through a few and then there's some.

Moderator (28:17)

Yeah, I'll come. I'll come that way. I'll come that way.

Audience Member (28:19)

I grew up listening to your broadcast as I was growing in the Balkans. So I really admired your work and thank you. My question has to do about another aspect of the tariffs. So we know that one of the ways people got in touch with other civilizations in the medieval ages was through merchants and establishment of trade routes. So people went out to sell goods and then different cultures opened up and this way they got close to each other. So do you think that this establishment of tariffs makes the US Kind of more separate and is a way to isolate it culturally as well? So if you put a stop to importing goods from other countries, that's also a stop to importing ideas getting in touch with other civilizations or religions. And that's an another way of what they do with immigrants.

Moderator (29:10)

Good question. And I'm going to come to the middle section here. There's a gentleman. Oh, yes, go back and then we'll come to you at the front, I promise. Yeah, go there.

Audience Member (29:20)

Hi, we are very excited to be here. We're two journalists from Latin America. I would just wanted to know, like, what's your opinion of what happened in Venezuela? A lot of people from Venezuela were very happy that Maduro was moved. But on the other hand, it's very worrying what the US Did. So what was your opinion about that and what do you think is going to happen? Because Del C. Rodriguez is still in power and we even saw that Donald Trump is not very excited of putting Maria Corina Machado, who won the Nobel Peace Prize last year.

Moderator (29:52)

Okay, so two really interesting questions.

Christiane Amanpour (29:55)

So one of them, I mean, I think it's really interesting, the historical framing of trade and exchange of ideas and all the Rest of it. And look, I am not an expert on tariffs. Literally, I'm not an expert on anything economic. But I do know, because of my own world and my own job, that the more you open up and are open to others, the more obviously you expose yourself to different ideas, different cultures, different this and that. What I think that's happened is that the current, more populist, nationalist politicians who've now, you know, taken over in quite a few places, including in the United States, don't like that and attribute that to a weakness that is attributable to other issues. Right. So it's true that America's manufacturing base did, you know, did get hurt quite a lot, but it's also true that the various governments didn't retrain workers. Didn't, you know, didn't, didn't. Again, you end something, but you don't, you know, build something. So my answer to you is basically, whether it's tariffs or not, closing yourself up is obviously going to be something that I think makes you weaker in the end. I really do. I genuinely believe that as individuals, as nations, as communities, because in my experience, going all over the world, I've seen that communities, whether they're communities at home or wider communities, make people and their communities and their countries more knowledgeable and therefore stronger and more able to deal with all this stuff that's going on in the world. When you open the world to such massive information flow, which is what social media has done, Right, you also need to be able to test it out for yourself. Otherwise there's just this collision between the stuff that you're reading and the stuff that, you know you're experiencing. So that's a long answer to saying, yep, and Venezuela. And Venezuela. So again, Venezuela. I interviewed Maduro several years ago and I saw for myself that the guy was not very smart and. And was also not at all. I mean, literally, when I say not smart, I mean unaware of the yearning for democracy and freedom from his people and the fact that they were on their knees in terms of economic distress. Now, let's face it, Chavismo was very popular. Hugo Chavez was very popular. He wasn't just picked up and plonked there. He had popular support. He was a charismatic leader. You may or may not have liked him. But his successor, the person he chose to succeed him, had none of his strengths, if you consider his strengths from his perspective, which were strengths. And Maduro couldn't even understand that the concept of democracy or freedom, elections, and this, that may cut to 10 years later, because I think I interviewed him in 2016. He, I mean, I'm sure he was offered a way out, but he wouldn't take it. And instead he went and, you know, did the wiggle and pissed Trump off. But. But I also think that what we've seen is a very deliberate policy, mostly from Marco Rubio. The Venezuela dossier, if you like, is something that Marco Rubio was dealing with. Marco Rubio's parents were immigrants from Cuba. And like Cuban Americans, they have a very, very clear view of what's happened to their country. What the Communists did, the Castro regime, you know, Chavez and all the rest of it. It in Venezuela, and they want to see an eventual end to these regimes. So when Maduro didn't play it smart from his perspective, even though the people were suffering, et cetera, and clearly didn't want him in it anymore because they had voted against him, he stole the last election. According to all the international observers, Maria Corinna Machado's party won. He just, I don't know, believed his own publicity, whatever, and he paid for it because he wasn't smart. And he, you know, whether he would have collapsed naturally, I don't know. But what happened is, as you say, this particular US Administration decided that it wasn't about democracy. Removing Maduro was not about human rights or democracy, maybe not even about the welfare of the Venezuelan people, because what they did was, as you said, remove the leadership and leave the apparatus in position. Will it change? Will, as Trump say, they do what we tell them to do and it will be better for you and this and that? I don't know, because Trump is not committed to democracy. So I don't know what is going to happen in Venezuela regarding a change of political reality for the people there. But I will tell you one thing which is a cautionary tale when I did, because I'm a journalist and my job is to do all sides of the story. So I interviewed Maria Corinna Machado when she got her Nobel, and she had told me that she was dedicating it to Trump. This is when it was announced, before she actually received it, and that she agreed with American intervention and stuff like that. So, okay, I had that view on. Then I had another view on happened to be an American who at the State Department had the Venezuela file for the Biden administration. And he was saying, well, you know, here's what would happen if there was an intervention. It's not clear that Machado has all the military and all the things, but more to the point, this is what might happen if Trump intervenes. I'm telling you that it was as if war had started online. The fact that I even interviewed this guy was a crime according to Machado's supporters outside. And there was just a complete deluge of social media BS again, silos weaponizing, you know, nobody can get together. And then this happened and Machado got dissed by Donald Trump. I don't know where it's going to go in the future. Maybe her party will be able to come back, but right now she is not getting a look in. I don't think she's even been able to go back, has she? I think she's still outside. Yeah. A very brave woman.

Moderator (36:49)

May I tuck in an online question because it relates directly, can the Cuban regime survive without Venezuela's and Mexico's oil and sport?

Christiane Amanpour (36:58)

Good question. Maybe not good question already. I mean we're going back to 1989, the fall of the Soviet Union, which really paid for Cuba and the Castro regime in every which way. They've been hurting ever since. And with American sanctions and the embargo still on and now even their satellite helpers, Venezuela, Mexico. Venezuela's stopped and Mexico is under huge pressure. So I don't know. But you can be sure that Marco Rubio wants an end to the Castro regime.

Moderator (37:30)

I'm gonna have to wrap up there.

Mia Sorrenti (37:40)

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Connor Boyle and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings you can become a member@innigration squared squared.com membership and to join us at future live events just head over to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full live events program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.

Alex Honnold (38:18)

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