Intelligence Squared: How Philosophy Explains Our World, with Julian Baggini (Part Two)

Date: December 29, 2025
Host: Richela Shah
Guest: Julian Baggini (philosopher and author)
Location: Conway Hall, London

Episode Overview

In this lively live event, philosopher Julian Baggini joins broadcaster Richela Shah to delve into how philosophy can illuminate today’s turbulent politics—particularly the concepts of value, character, pragmatism, and polarization in the UK and beyond. This second half of their discussion covers the philosophical underpinnings of contemporary political movements and leaders, the role of pragmatism, the dangers and realities of populism, how individuals can think more clearly, and the enduring relevance of classical philosophical ideas. Audience questions drive the latter part, touching on Aristotle, conspiracy theories, the promise and threat of AI, and the limits of philosophical outreach.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Political Values vs. Political “Isms”

[01:35–07:37]

• Isms are oversimplifications:
  Julian Baggini expresses suspicion toward “isms” (like Thatcherism, Blairism), arguing they provide “broad brush” simplifications and mask the real driving forces: values.

  “When you talk about an ism, you’re always somewhat simplifying what is going on.” – Julian Baggini [02:40]

• The role of values:
  Voters, Baggini argues, respond more fundamentally to perceived values than to policies or ideologies.
  Trump's election and Brexit were both, he says, “values things”—about autonomy or “taking back control”—not necessarily economic logic.

  “It was a values thing for them … they wanted our country to become more autonomous.” – Julian Baggini [03:14]

Keir Starmer, Pragmatism, and Political Character

[02:40–08:34]

• Pragmatism praised:
  While some see pragmatism as unprincipled, Baggini contends it’s essential to real political progress. Idealists rarely survive in politics; compromise is necessary—even if it leads to unpopular decisions.

  “Pragmatism is often seen as a dirty word in politics … I actually think it should be the exact opposite.” – Julian Baggini [04:49]

• Personal anecdote:
  Baggini recounts playing football with Keir Starmer years ago and describes Starmer’s deeper, longstanding commitment to progressive law (Doughty Street Chambers, McLibel trial).

  “The one thing I don’t doubt about Starmer is fundamentally the things he wants for society … whether he’s doing the right things to achieve them is highly questionable.” [06:59]

• Starmer’s weaknesses:
  Communications and management are highlighted as Starmer’s major flaws (“He wasn’t designed to be a politician. It’s an accident he got there.” – Baggini [07:40]).

Populism, Political Messaging, and Simplicity

[08:34–12:20]

• Nature of populism:
  Populism is defined as the belief in a singular “will of the people,” expressed in opposition to elites. It thrives on simplistic, easily-digestible messages (“Take Back Control”, “Hope”).

  “Populism generally offers fairly simplistic solutions. It suggests it’s not actually that complicated.” – Julian Baggini [09:38]

• Dilemmas in combating populism:
  Baggini outlines three elite responses—avoid, marry, or “snog” (flirt with) populist parties/ideas. None are fully effective.
• Simplicity versus complexity:
  He laments how both populists and their opponents feel forced into soundbite messaging, at the expense of honesty about complexity.

  “Although we say, oh, you know, treat the electorate as grown ups, be honest with them, it actually doesn’t work because that means saying things are complicated and people just think you’re obfuscating.” [11:40]

Philosophy in Everyday Understanding and Character

[13:43–18:04]

• Philosophical thinking as practice:
  Baggini believes philosophy isn’t about adopting theories, but embracing the way philosophers think: slow, attentive, humble, and rigorous inquiry.

  “The way to use philosophy in our daily life is… looking at how philosophers think… more important than what they have thought.” [14:06]

• Attitude and character trumps IQ:
  The most critical factor in clear thought is character—“intellectual integrity and moral honesty”—not raw intelligence.

  “A good thinker is a person of intellectual integrity and moral honesty who is serious about what they’re thinking about.” [16:38]

Pessimism as a Useful Stance

[18:04–20:22]

• Mitigated pessimism vs. fatalism:
  Baggini advocates a rational, non-fatalistic pessimism about human affairs: expect imperfect outcomes, but still strive for improvement.

  “It’s reasonable and rational to have fairly low expectations … but that mustn’t become a kind of fatalism.” [18:29]

• Rejecting fatalism in thought and action:
  Even if truth is elusive, our commitment to seek it remains vital.

Notable Audience Q&A Segments

On Aristotle, Virtue, and Precise Thinking

[20:44–23:22]

• An audience member notes the similarity between Baggini’s views on character and Aristotle’s ethics, suggesting Aristotle still offers the finest ethical blueprint.
• Baggini’s response:
  He agrees, lauding Aristotle (and noting similarities with Confucius and classical Indian philosophy). He highlights Aristotle’s view that we seek only “as much precision as the subject matter allows.”

  “It is the mark of the trained mind only to expect as much precision as the subject matter allows.” – Julian Baggini quoting Aristotle [21:42]

On Conspiracy Theories

[23:33–26:56]

• Audience member asks: How should we assess conspiracy theories, given that some conspiracies are real?
• Baggini’s answer:
  Acknowledge real conspiracies, but apply critical thinking. The distinction lies in seeking the simplest, most plausible explanation—not just the one that “feels” simple but is overall more reasonable.

  “Developing good critical thinking skills enables us to distinguish … the key things about conspiracy theories is… what is the most reasonable explanation for something being the case?” [24:15]

On Artificial Intelligence and Philosophy

[29:43–32:38]

• Can AI be a philosopher? What are AI’s threats and opportunities?
• Baggini’s reply:
  In principle, true AI philosophers could exist, but current “AI” is just simulation.

  “What we’ve got at the moment is not artificial intelligence. … It’s just crunching data in a very sort of crude way. The way the human mind works is, is clearly totally different.” [29:43]
  The real dangers now are not sentient AI, but the power of current systems to be misused.

On Reaching the “Unreceptive”

[32:41–35:01]

• How can philosophical thinking reach those least willing to consider it?
• Baggini’s advice:
  Many who need it most won’t be receptive; but the effort still matters for oneself and for “leading by example.” As with moral virtue, change travels by emulation.

  “We are social creatures … where we see people modelling good ways of doing things … it encourages us to be like that.” [33:36]

Memorable Quotes

• “Pragmatists … want to achieve the best possible outcome. … Purists, basically, they don’t get elected.” — Julian Baggini [04:49]
• “The most important thing which determines whether you arrive at the truth or not is whether you have the character of a good thinker.” — Julian Baggini [15:26]
• “That habit of stopping and asking is really, really important.” — Julian Baggini [16:20]
• “What is bad is to be fatalistic… You can be a fatalistic optimist or a fatalistic pessimist. … The healthy attitude… is to accept things aren’t great… but you can’t be fatalistic.” — Julian Baggini [18:29]
• “It is the mark of the trained mind only to expect as much precision as the subject matter allows.” — Baggini quoting Aristotle [21:42]
• “People who most need X are the people who are least likely to be receptive to it. … The importance of example—living by example has a capacity to change.” — Julian Baggini [33:36]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Political “isms” and values: 01:35–07:37
• Starmer’s pragmatism and personal anecdote: 04:49–07:37
• Populism and simple messaging: 08:34–12:20
• Philosophy as attitude, character: 13:43–18:04
• Uses of pessimism: 18:04–20:22
• Aristotle and virtue: 20:44–23:22
• Conspiracy theories: 23:33–26:56
• Artificial intelligence and philosophy: 29:43–32:38
• Outreach to the unreceptive: 32:41–35:01

Closing Notes

Baggini’s main message is the need for intellectual humility, character, and curiosity, both in politics and daily life. Philosophy isn’t about answers from on high, but about habits of thought we can all practice—and it matters for public life as much as private reflection.

For further engagement or to become a member, listeners are invited to visit the Intelligence Squared website.