How To Lose Your Country, with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

Summary

Detailed Summary: Intelligence Squared – "How To Lose Your Country," with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Intelligence Squared
Guests: Ece Temelkuran (author, political thinker), Coco Kahn (columnist, podcaster, moderator)
Location: Kiln Theatre, London
Producer: Mia Sorrenti

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Episode Overview

In Part Two of this live conversation, Turkish writer and political commentator Ece Temelkuran sits down with journalist Coco Kahn. The discussion dives into the global shift toward authoritarianism and political apathy, the urgent responsibility to defend democracy, and lessons we can glean from those who have faced dictatorial regimes. With audience questions and a focus on the UK context, the episode addresses why words like "fascism" are so loaded, the troubling trends among youth, the importance of accountability, and what truly sustains hope during dark times.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Language of Crisis: "Fascism" and "Populism"

• Is it splitting hairs?
  • Kahn prompts Temelkuran to reflect on the UK's reluctance to use the word "fascism" and questions whether focusing on labels distracts from action.
    • Quote:
      • Coco Kahn [05:02]: “My first question is, are we just splitting hairs? Does it really matter or is it important to understand populism? Is that a concept that we all need to walk away from here with in order to immunize ourselves from it?”
• Urgency in Naming Threats:
  • Temelkuran emphasizes that using terms like "fascism" is necessary due to the urgency of rising authoritarianism. Avoiding such language is a way to avoid recognizing the severity of what's happening.
    • Quote:
      • Ece Temelkuran [05:33]: “Immediacy of the situation, urgency of the situation requires us to use these words more than anything, more than academic... It's important that it's used in this country because this country’s national identity is built on Second World War.”
• National Identity and Denial:
  • She discusses the discomfort in Britain (and similar Western nations) when confronted with the idea that fascism could exist within their borders—because their national mythologies are rooted in having defeated fascism.
    • Quote:
      • Ece Temelkuran [07:51]: “When you call these countries leaders fascist or when you tell that there is fascism in these countries, you are actually hurting the very national identity of these countries. So it’s important that you use it responsibly.”

The Allure of Authoritarianism for the Young

• Changing Attitudes:
  • Kahn references recent UK data, noting a fifth of under-25s are “okay with a dictatorship,” especially young men. She asks Temelkuran to unpack why.
• Impact of Political Disillusionment:
  • Temelkuran identifies a generational disconnect from politics, rooted in the post-1980s narrative that politics is dirty and for the foolish, not the talented. The legacies of neoliberalism and liberal democracy have clouded real understanding of political systems.
    • Quote:
      • Ece Temelkuran [10:26]: “1980s did something to our perception of politics. It did not only erase leftist ideas… it gifted us this understanding of politics which is dirty, disgusting... It was like this all over the world... So it's only understandable their kids have no idea of politics.”
• Global South Has Lessons:
  • She argues that societies with experience under authoritarianism—the so-called “Global South”—have valuable lessons and stamina that Western societies lack.

Dehumanization and Loss of Shame

• Mechanisms of Division:
  • The conversation identifies the purposeful dehumanization in populist and fascist tactics, visible in language targeting the “other” and in culture wars.
  • Temelkuran argues that “loss of shame” is the most dangerous marker of this shift, and that recent events in Gaza have exemplified the normalization of treating some groups and even countries as “disposable.”
    • Quote:
      • Ece Temelkuran [13:32]: “That loss of shame, which I think is the most important chapter in ‘How to Lose a Country’… We saw the pride of the perpetrator. How proud was the perpetrator? That was another level of shamelessness.”
  • She characterizes the emerging system as “techno-fascism”—a modern, ruthless, technology-infused form of authoritarianism.

On Hope, Survival, and Making Beauty

• Survival Without Hope:
  • Kahn explores the futility of waiting for a hopeful, redemptive future, wondering if perhaps today’s citizens must accept that a better world may not arrive in their lifetimes.
• Beauty as Survival:
  • Temelkuran pushes back, arguing that hope is not what keeps people going through tremendous suffering or oppression—it's the human drive to create beauty, meaning, and connection in the face of adversity. She shares a story about two Holocaust survivors who find a moment of beauty with a rotten cabbage, underscoring her broader point.
    • Quote:
      • Ece Temelkuran [23:20]: “What makes us hold on to life, what makes us survive, is our urge, our innate urge to create beauty... That’s how you survive. Hope is for lightweights… for really real survival, you kind of do something, do something beautiful to be alive and to stay humane.”

Audience Q&A: Accountability, Complacency, and Participation

• Lack of Accountability:
  • Maya (audience member from Lebanon) asks about the crucial role of accountability, referencing regional leaders evading justice.
• Complacency and Urgency:
  • Sanam (audience member, British-Iranian) discusses Western complacency and the importance of active, disruptive participation—not merely peaceful protesting, but persistent civil engagement that unsettles power.
• Temelkuran on Participation:
  • She cuts through to the emotional core: The real driver for action is not dry calls for accountability or participation, but reviving faith—political faith in change and equality, and a kind of passion that makes participation and sacrifice worthwhile, despite the drudgery and risk.
    • Quote:
      • Ece Temelkuran [30:35]: “What is missing is the pathos, is the passion. Why is the passion not there? Because we are not believing in it, really… The main drive is the loss of faith. How do we refresh faith?... the main drive should be we’re going to change the system and we’re going to bring real equality to this world and we’re going to make you feel dignified human beings.”
• Complacency’s True Danger:
  • The pain of losing a country is not the dictator or the violence, but the betrayal or inaction of one’s own friends and allies.
    • Quote:
      • Ece Temelkuran [33:58]: “The thing that gives real pain is the complacency of your friends or the people that you consider. You assume that you're on your side. That breaks you…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Naming Fascism:
  • “Immediacy of the situation, urgency of the situation requires us to use these words more than anything, more than academic.” – Ece Temelkuran [05:33]
• On British Identity and Fascism:
  • “When you call these countries leaders fascist... you are actually hurting the very national identity of these countries. So it's important that you use it responsibly.” – Ece Temelkuran [07:51]
• On the Next Generation’s Politics:
  • “Only the stupid people could be politicians. The high IQ or like really successful people, it's like beneath them... So it's only understandable their kids have no idea of politics.” – Ece Temelkuran [10:27]
• On Loss of Shame:
  • “That loss of shame, which I think is the most important chapter in ‘How to Lose a Country’... We saw the pride of the perpetrator.” – Ece Temelkuran [13:32]
• On Why Hope Isn't Enough:
  • “Hope is for lightweights... for real survival, you kind of do something, do something beautiful to be alive and to stay humane.” – Ece Temelkuran [24:45]
• On Accountability, Participation & Faith:
  • “But when I left my country, I was about to lose my mind. Because one of the things that, you know, this kind of new neo fascism does is create this confusion, a lot of confusion....” – Ece Temelkuran [30:35]
• On Friendships as Political Power:
  • “Hold on to your friends and make new friends... at the end it will come to that moral breaking point where you will have to do things for people or you will have to trust people.” – Ece Temelkuran [34:51]

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Important Timestamps

• [03:50] – Kahn sets the stage: why art flourishes during crisis, and opens the discussion about the language of fascism.
• [05:33] – Temelkuran defends the use of “fascism” due to urgency, connecting it to British national identity.
• [09:26] – Kahn queries about young people and the lure of authoritarianism.
• [10:26] – Temelkuran describes how the 1980s divorced politics from legitimacy in the eyes of the next generation.
• [13:32] – On the normalization of dehumanization and pride in perpetration.
• [15:59] – Adding climate crisis urgency and the psychological toll of global catastrophe.
• [23:20] – Why “creating beauty” is more powerful than hope for survival.
• [26:09]–[30:01] – Audience Q&A on accountability, complacency, and the Western disconnect.
• [34:51] – Final reflections on the importance of friendship in resisting authoritarianism.

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Structure & Narrative Flow

The conversation flows from theoretical and linguistic debates (how to talk about authoritarian shifts) through social and generational analysis, into philosophical ruminations on survival and hope—and lands with calls for both practical and emotional community solidarity as bulwarks against democratic decay. Audience questions help ground these arguments in lived experience, especially from those already acquainted with authoritarianism.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Language Matters: Calling out fascism is not academic pedantry, but a necessary recognition of present dangers.
• History & Identity: Western nations may be in denial due to deeply held national myths about being ‘immune’ to fascism.
• Importance of Action Beyond Hope: Survival and resistance are motivated less by hope, more by creativity, connection, and beauty—even in small gestures.
• Complacency Kills: The pathway to dictatorship is paved not just by strong leaders, but collective apathy—especially among those who should resist.
• Solidarity Through Friendship: In challenging times, holding fast to and expanding real friendships allows for the kind of trust and resilience needed for resistance.

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This summary captures the depth, urgency, and human texture of the conversation, offering a clear roadmap through Temelkuran’s warnings and wisdom for those defending democracy today.

Transcript

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Mia Sorrenti]

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti for this episode. We're rejoining for part two of our recent live event with political thinker and writer Ece Temel Curran. Tamil Curran joined columnist and podcaster Coco Kahn recently at the Kiln Theatre to discuss how the world's democracies are sleepwalking into authoritarianism and how we might be able to defend democracy and learn the lessons of resistance from across the globe. If you, if you haven't heard part one, do just jump back an episode to get up to speed. But now let's rejoin the conversation live at the Kiln Theatre in London.

[Coco Kahn]

Well, I mean, with my former arch journalist head on, like, there is a reason why there's so much great art around moments of crises. You know, that sense of human experience and sharing it and looking into the heart and soul of someone who is not like you and yearning to be together in that moment creates this incredible thing. I don't know if I'm, if that's enough of a silver lining for the impending doom to Britain for me personally, but we shall try and find some more. I wanted to talk to you about, and I'm sorry to keep returning to this question about, like, why the word fascism really scares people. But you know, in the book you outline quite methodically the things that happen in the slide to, to a dictatorship. And as you said, you know, perhaps it will be a leader that is palatable, but populist, and then, you know, the next one comes in. And so right now in the UK there is a raging conversation about like literally just today, Zach Polanski, who is the leader of the Green Party, perhaps it was yesterday, forgive me if I've got that wrong, talking about fascism, a right wing pundit really had a go saying, how dare you use that word? Then there was a conversation off the back of that from all sort of column inches dedicated about like, well, can we really say that? Is it not more populism? And my first question is, are we just splitting hairs? Does it really matter or is it important to understand populism? Is that a concept that we all need to walk away from here with in order to kind of immunize ourselves from it?

[Ece Temel Curran]

Immediacy of the situation, urgency of the situation requires us to use these words more than anything, more than academic. You know, that's why I don't want to Go into the academic.

[Coco Kahn]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Ece Temel Curran]

But most important thing, the urgency. And the urgency is not something fearful. We have to do something now, but now is an endless time. Now is like, there's a lot of time in now when you think about it. We should leave here with the urgency of speaking up, getting organized, getting in touch with each other and being more welcoming towards each other so the solidarity becomes probable, possible. This is why I use the word and I keep using the word and it's interesting that it is now used in Britain so widely. After Gaza, everything changed, of course, it became very clear and we all know or just feel or sense that Gaza is just a rehearsal of what we are going to have in the world. Because Gaza made it possible for, you know, made it tried to normalize this vision of humanity splitting into humanity too. Like, you know, deplorables, you know, disposables and, you know, the others and so on. It made it very, very clear. So it's important. And there is no. There's coming back from that. Reversing that is almost impossible. Very hard. So what we have to do from after here, I think, is to talk about it. It's important that it's used in this country because this country's, as far as I know, by the way, I'm not an expert on British history, but as far as I know, this country's national identity is built on Second World War. And then we killed Nazis and then we prevailed over fascism and we represent democracy, blood, sweat and tears. I can easily do Churchill voice. I just noticed.

[Mia Sorrenti]

That's good.

[Ece Temel Curran]

So anyway, this, you know, forgetting is an interesting thing, you know, or remembering in a certain way, this country had Nazis, this country had fascists. But then this narrative of, like reburied fascism in the battlegrounds of World War II, you know, helped many countries, mostly Britain and United States. So when you call these countries leaders fascist or when you tell that there is fascism in these countries, you are actually hurting the very national identity of these countries. So it's important that you use it responsibly.

[Coco Kahn]

Right?

[Ece Temel Curran]

And you should be aware of the consequences of it because it's not going to be far right who is going to be against you. It's going to be the center, it's going to be the establishment of this country. So this is the dangerous part, right? I don't know if this makes sense because you're not there yet as a country, you're not there yet.

[Coco Kahn]

I think we could agree that we're at a stage where we have populist leaders coming up. Although it is weird with the word populist because I'm not gonna lie, for a long time I thought that just meant popular. So I was like, well, what's wrong with that?

[Ece Temel Curran]

What I mean is you said like, you know, I was in this TV program and far right people shouting at me, that's okay, that's even cool.

[Coco Kahn]

I don't know if they were far right. That's what's chilling. Yeah, I don't know if they were.

[Ece Temel Curran]

Far right when the center comes out. Yeah, that is, that is interesting. That is a really interesting fight.

[Coco Kahn]

So let's talk about young people. Traditionally young people are sort of, you know, we like to think they are the, you know, they're the future and they are shining lights and they tend to be certainly after World War II, become more progressive of each generation. But as the data is telling a slightly different story at the moment in the UK, I think it's a fifth of under 25 said they're okay with a dictatorship. Actually they don't mind. There's also a gender split where young men are being more drawn to that. Young women tend to go a bit more left. That's obviously creating knock on effects to partnering up. You know, there are some, lots of quite scary articles about what it means for families, birth rates, blah, blah, blah, all getting maybe a little bit carried away. But what do you think about this particular issue of young people being drawn to authoritarianism?

[Ece Temel Curran]

I don't know how many Generations passed after 1980s, but 1980s did something to our perception of politics. It did not only erase leftist ideas and ideals from global stage by violence, but also it gifted us this, you know, this understanding of politics which is dirty, disgusting like politics. My generation grew up thinking that most of my generation all around the world grew up thinking that only the stupid people could be politicians. The you know, the high IQ or like really successful people, it's like beneath them. And it was like this all over the world. It wasn't something we chose to do, but this was given to us as a narrative part of the liberal democracy narrative. So it is only understandable their kids has no idea of politics. So when they say I don't care about dictator or I don't care about fascism, they do know not, they don't know anything about these words. Not really. They haven't experienced it. This is also why I think global South. I don't like this word, but you know what I mean, like you know, Arabs and US and Asia and India and so on. We Have a lot to teach. It's very patronizing, but we have a lot of experience to share. And this is actually initially was my reason to write how to Lose a Country. You know, we have the experience. You have the stamina because you're not tired yet. You're still angry, you're shouting, you're fighting, you're going on. But imagine this for 20 years. Imagine Farage for 20 years.

[Coco Kahn]

He smokes a lot. It's okay.

[Ece Temel Curran]

So it becomes really exhausting, not physically, but, like, mentally, emotionally exhausting. So I thought these two things, stamina and experience, they can come together and change something.

[Coco Kahn]

That's why the book is so urgent and why. I don't want to say I enjoyed it, because it wasn't enjoyment that I felt, but it was an intense. Well, all sorts of feelings. I mean, there's one you lay out, almost like a methodical guide, really. If I wanted to be a dictator, it'd be great about how it happens. And there was one rule, if you will, or one step of the process, which is just about dehumanizing your opponent. And I have seen that everywhere since. I mean, really, we're talking about, like, the culture wars of Britain and how the wokes are on that side and the whatever on the other side. And you see it and this sort of joy in laughing at the other person's pain or joy. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's.

[Ece Temel Curran]

By the way. But that is not the doing of Putin, Trump or their ilk. That loss of shame, which I think is the most important chapter in how to lose a country. That is loss of shame that was brought upon us by different elements coming together in political and social life, beginning since the beginning of 1980s. But then loss of shame. We saw the loss of shame most predominantly, like, you know, clearly in Gaza, we saw the pride of the perpetrator. How proud was the perpetrator. That was another level of shamelessness. And this is what I was trying to warn about, which is now happening in Gaza. And then it will probably in some other places it will be like that. Because this new system that they're trying to bring is not even dictatorship, by the way. I call it fascism, but it's a different kind of techno fascism kind of thing, this new system. You know, it's horrible that they're trying to bring. But most important thing is they do not have the same understanding of humanity with us, these guys. So some people are disposable, really. And when I say some people, I'm talking about, you know, they imagine Some countries are unnecessary in the world and some societies are like. Well, they don't. What's their input? Like financial zero, then collateral damage. So when I say moral corruption or moral decay, I mean this, this new regime that they are trying to build in the world. And it's very clear in Trump's, you know, entourage and himself, it's going to be something different. It's going to be very savage. That's why, you know, why don't you. Why do you use fascism? Well, actually, I should use Apocalypse, considering the urgency of the situation, the depth of the situation. You know, all these dystopian movies, Netflix showed some, they're really planning these things.

[Coco Kahn]

I mean, when you add the climate crisis into it, I mean, that seems fair enough. Apocalypse does seem accurate.

[Ece Temel Curran]

So, yeah, you know, there is this, which book I wrote about that I don't remember. But this, I think in Together, people who have been in war, they miss war. Part of them secretly, because there is no tomorrow in war. And it gives you a different sense of self, you understand, your capacity, your limitlessness. So when I say Apocalypse, when I say all these horrible things, you should feel like heroes. You should feel like there's so much I can do. That's why when people say, you're so depressed and you know, you're feeling, making people, no, this is good. Well, it's not good, but many, many good things will happen. And this country is becoming interesting too, and United States as well, and after Gaza. And I think we are finally on the same page emotionally, mental state and politically, because I noticed that you started crying when you see good things. You're not crying anymore for dying children. You cry when something happens that save that children. When you see on the street people demonstrating together, you cry then. That is a very particular stage you reach when you understand that the situation is really, really serious and when you are exhausted of your own numbness, the numbness that you were asked to develop. So I think we're all same page now, so it's good we're on the same page so we can do something about it.

[Coco Kahn]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Ece Temel Curran]

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[Sanam]

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[Ece Temel Curran]

Rated M for mature.

[Coco Kahn]

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[Ece Temel Curran]

Hi, I'm here to pick up my son, Milo.

[Coco Kahn]

There's no Milo here who picked up.

[Sanam]

My son from school. Streaming only on Peacock.

[Coco Kahn]

I'm going to need the name of everyone that could have a connection.

[Ece Temel Curran]

You don't understand. It was just the five of us. So this was all planned. What are you gonna do? I will do whatever it takes to.

[Sanam]

Get my son back.

[Coco Kahn]

I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other.

[Ece Temel Curran]

All her fault.

[Coco Kahn]

A new series, streaming now only on Peacock. I mean, one thing I often think about, and perhaps this is not a barrier to others, perhaps this is just my own feebleness.

[Sanam]

But.

[Coco Kahn]

Certainly after reading your urgent book, but also just in general, the world, I've made peace with the fact that, like, it's gonna be shit for a long old time and we better, you know, pull the socks up, get the leather jacket on, let's roll. You know, like, we are. We're fighting tonight and it's gonna be some time. But there is always a part of me that thinks, oh, like, why does it have to be me? Why does it have to be me? I feel like I'm. I Have had bad luck with all sorts of political moments. I came out of university when the global economy crashed. Well, that was annoying. I'm so glad I took on all that debt. And even, I don't know, they made the bus fares free literally the week after I turned 18. I feel like it's against me. Anyway, what I'm getting at is, is it helpful to hang on to this idea that, like, I will see the day the world is better, or should we own up to the fact that probably everyone in this room won't?

[Ece Temel Curran]

What do you mean? Do you mean they're old? No, I didn't get it.

[Coco Kahn]

I'm saying it might be 100 years till we rebuild the world. And I think that's fair to say we will all be gone in 100 years.

[Ece Temel Curran]

It doesn't work like that. It works like this. By the way, I have the leather jacket. It doesn't work like that. And by the way, we're not talking about warfare necessarily, or, you know, any kind of armed struggle. I hope it won't come to that. There are many, many stages before that. And there are more boring stages like going to your neighbor and talking about elections and, you know, about organizing community and so on. But there is. We're living in an interesting time. Our sense of future is quite interesting. We don't have the sense of future of beginning of 20th century, for instance, but future is now. And that's why a minute ago I said, now is an endless time. There is a lot of time in now. It's going to be a now now. We're going to live in the now. And that now will give us this power of being ourselves, being fully ourselves. So it's not going to be somewhere in the future. There'll be nice things going to do the good things we're going to do create beautiful things. Now I'm like, what better time? Because, you know, you asked about hope in the beginning to circle it back. Many people think that it is hope that make people survive horrible situations. It's hope that take us, you know, to motivate us or whatever gives us strength. No, it's not hope. There have been so many times during human history that there was zero hope. People still survived. So I was thinking, how did they survive? Because I was thinking that we're going to end up in this situation. So we need something like something philosophical to hold on to. So what is that? So I understood, reading history and so on. What makes us hold on to. To life, what makes us survive is our urge, our Innate urge to create beauty. And when I say beauty, I mean political beauty, moral beauty in daily life, artistic beauty, intellectual beauty, every kind of beauty. That's what keeps us in this life. It's in the book. I'm spoiling the book for you a little bit, but there are many other stories in the book. How to Lose a Country. When I was writing how to Lose a Country, my Dutch editor told me a story. Her grandmother and grandfather met in a concentration camp. So they're obviously skinny, they have nothing. But somehow the boy found a cabbage, like, you know, rotten dead cabbage. So he stuck the cabbage onto a stick and he gave the cabbage to the girl and they survived the concentration camp and so on. So I was thinking, what is it there? What is this story about? Is it about hope? No, it's about creating beauty out of nothing and despite everything. That's how you survive hope. Hope is for lightweights and it's for easy situations, for really real survival. You kind of do something, do something beautiful to be alive and to stay humane.

[Coco Kahn]

That's a wonderful point to open up to our floor. We have some roving mics and some magic people who can can bring them around. Do stick your hand up if you have a question. And just a reminder that we want to get through as many as we can, so please keep it brief. This lady in the front here, my.

[Maya]

Name is Maya, I'm from Lebanon. I'm grateful that you come to Beirut. Sharifna, I want to ask you, do you think is lack of accountability is taking our humanity? Because in my country I'm doing my PhD about political interference and justice. That's why I felt the humanity being stripped away from our country since the Syria and Iran regime occupied my country in a different way. Do you think accountability of the like Putin running away from accountability for Ukrainian. And Bashar Al Assad ran away from accountability killing his people for 11 damn years. And I think right now you said about hope and you said it's not about. It's about humanity and the survival skills. Do you think accountability will give a little back of humanity? And Angelina Julie said she doesn't recognize anymore the country is. She's saying about the political side or too much diversity.

[Coco Kahn]

What do you think?

[Maya]

What do you think? This is my thoughts. Thank you very much.

[Coco Kahn]

Should we try one more? Yeah, as well. We're just doing them in groups.

[Sanam]

Actually.

[Coco Kahn]

We have conveniently this lady here next to our first speaker.

[Sanam]

Yes, you recognize me. You can see. Hi, my name is Sanam. I'm British, Iranian and listening to My friend ECE and the conversations we've had, you know, we can tell you what happened in Iran and it hasn't finished yet. So this question of what happens when you effectively get, whether it's a theocratic fascist or a militant fashion military fascism or whatever is once they take power, they instigate their systems and they're very good at being locally rooted in communities and putting their systems in place. And what I find, and this is the issue that I find that I'm about to lose another country. I also lived in America for 20 years, I've kind of lost that one.

[Ece Temel Curran]

Right.

[Sanam]

And so coming back to England right now and seeing what's happening here under a Labour government, it's incredibly worrying. But it's really hard to explain it to our British friends and family and others because they've never experienced what, as you say, the signs that we feel and hear and so forth. And I think that we're dealing with a complacency because democracy isn't just about going to vote or what I call extreme capitalism. I think it's about your rights and responsibilities. It's about advanced citizenship. You have to participate and you have to hold your politicians accountable and you have to. Protesting on a Saturday is very nice, it's important, but actually it's about protesting on a Monday or a Tuesday or a Wednesday to actually cause, you know, fundamental disturbances where they feel it. And I don't think that the. I don't think the public gets it, really. And as you say, it's, you know, I've seen many journalists, I just want many journalists I've met say Mr. Farage is very charming. People said Trump was charming. Hitler was charming too, actually, in person. So there is an urgency about doing something now because once these guys win, at least what we can tell you is it's a 45 year, 50 year cycle, at least, and you're not going to come out of it, I mean, unless there's a war, which again, doesn't bring accountability or real change. So there is an urgency about actually understanding what's happening and being able to respond.

[Coco Kahn]

So I will give you the question, sort of rehashing the two very great comments here. You know, you were saying about how the global south, we don't like that term, but nonetheless has a lot to teach. Are we too complacent in the West? Are we too complacent in Britain and what role for accountability? When does this take place? I mean, I feel a bit uncomfortable anyway because I'm a journalist, so I'M like, what role for the press should.

[Mia Sorrenti]

I be doing something?

[Coco Kahn]

And what role for the press? And what would the process of accountability look like?

[Ece Temel Curran]

Accountability and participation, these are the words I think we need to talk about. But when I left my country, I was about to lose my mind. Because one of the things that, you know, this kind of new neo fascism does is create this confusion, a lot of confusion. That's why I wrote a very simple book that everybody can understand from academic to normal, like, you know, reader. So I laid out the mechanism, like how is the mechanism working? Like a German, the machine, like this is how it's working. So this is how you can stop it. Like, you know, if you stick one thing there, this machine stops. One of them is participation and the other one is accountability, of course. But then I also noticed after how to Lose a Country and going around the world for two times speaking to different audiences, what is missing is, you know, in order to participate, in order to push for accountability, people have to be there. No, they have to believe in this whole thing. So what is missing is the pathos, is the passion. Why is the passion is not there? Because we are not believing in it really. So I am thinking of like, you know, deeper and deeper and deeper. What is the original reason for us not to go and say like all together and say that we're stopping this, it's not happening. What is stopping Americans going to White House and taking over White House, if it's that or what is stopping in Turkey? People. What is stopping people from, you know, walking to the palace, Arsaray Presidential palace, which is massive, by the way. What is that thing that would make them do it? And this is why I constantly talk about faith. Why did we lose our political weight? Faith? Because accountability, which will sound absolutely boring to many people, or participation, which is also a very boring thing because you have to listen to, you know, bullshit ideas for hours. For instance, if you really want to participate, participation is no fun. It is really like life consuming. So there should be something that makes us do that. The main drive. So main drive. That's why I wrote about faith. The main drive is the loss of faith. How do we refresh faith? I don't think words are participation or accountability. I think the main drive should be we're going to change the system and we're going to make, we're going to bring real equality to this world and we're going to make you feel dignified human beings.

[Coco Kahn]

And what about the word complacency? Does that have a role in this the word complacency.

[Ece Temel Curran]

Oh, in every step of the way. In every step of the way. But then people can be complacent for several reasons. Because of fear. But because of this mystic pull to power without being forced to, they can be pulled to power. There are so many different kinds of complacency. In the very beginning you asked me about how does it feel losing a country? You don't feel pain because there's a dictator. Never. And this is later stages. But perhaps you might want to know when you feel pain, the thing that gives real pain is the complacency of your friends or the people that you consider. You assume that you're on your side. That breaks you. So that's why I also talk about friendship a lot, because we're entering an interesting time. Hold on to your friends and make new friends. And your political connection should be through friendships. And political connections should turn the friendships because at the end it will come to that moral breaking point where you will have to do things for people or you will have to trust people. Life, when life is not normal, this is later stages. But what breaks you is not. Is not that fear, is not that oppression, is not that violence. It comes from your own side.

[Mia Sorrenti]

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by me, Mia Sorrenti and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings, become a [e-mail] membership and to join us at future events, why not head to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full live events program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.