Detailed Summary: Intelligence Squared – "How To Lose Your Country," with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Intelligence Squared
Guests: Ece Temelkuran (author, political thinker), Coco Kahn (columnist, podcaster, moderator)
Location: Kiln Theatre, London
Producer: Mia Sorrenti

Episode Overview

In Part Two of this live conversation, Turkish writer and political commentator Ece Temelkuran sits down with journalist Coco Kahn. The discussion dives into the global shift toward authoritarianism and political apathy, the urgent responsibility to defend democracy, and lessons we can glean from those who have faced dictatorial regimes. With audience questions and a focus on the UK context, the episode addresses why words like "fascism" are so loaded, the troubling trends among youth, the importance of accountability, and what truly sustains hope during dark times.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Language of Crisis: "Fascism" and "Populism"

Is it splitting hairs?
- Kahn prompts Temelkuran to reflect on the UK's reluctance to use the word "fascism" and questions whether focusing on labels distracts from action.
  - Quote:
    - Coco Kahn [05:02]: “My first question is, are we just splitting hairs? Does it really matter or is it important to understand populism? Is that a concept that we all need to walk away from here with in order to immunize ourselves from it?”
Urgency in Naming Threats:
- Temelkuran emphasizes that using terms like "fascism" is necessary due to the urgency of rising authoritarianism. Avoiding such language is a way to avoid recognizing the severity of what's happening.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [05:33]: “Immediacy of the situation, urgency of the situation requires us to use these words more than anything, more than academic... It's important that it's used in this country because this country’s national identity is built on Second World War.”
National Identity and Denial:
- She discusses the discomfort in Britain (and similar Western nations) when confronted with the idea that fascism could exist within their borders—because their national mythologies are rooted in having defeated fascism.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [07:51]: “When you call these countries leaders fascist or when you tell that there is fascism in these countries, you are actually hurting the very national identity of these countries. So it’s important that you use it responsibly.”

The Allure of Authoritarianism for the Young

Changing Attitudes:
- Kahn references recent UK data, noting a fifth of under-25s are “okay with a dictatorship,” especially young men. She asks Temelkuran to unpack why.
Impact of Political Disillusionment:
- Temelkuran identifies a generational disconnect from politics, rooted in the post-1980s narrative that politics is dirty and for the foolish, not the talented. The legacies of neoliberalism and liberal democracy have clouded real understanding of political systems.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [10:26]: “1980s did something to our perception of politics. It did not only erase leftist ideas… it gifted us this understanding of politics which is dirty, disgusting... It was like this all over the world... So it's only understandable their kids have no idea of politics.”
Global South Has Lessons:
- She argues that societies with experience under authoritarianism—the so-called “Global South”—have valuable lessons and stamina that Western societies lack.

Dehumanization and Loss of Shame

Mechanisms of Division:
- The conversation identifies the purposeful dehumanization in populist and fascist tactics, visible in language targeting the “other” and in culture wars.
- Temelkuran argues that “loss of shame” is the most dangerous marker of this shift, and that recent events in Gaza have exemplified the normalization of treating some groups and even countries as “disposable.”
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [13:32]: “That loss of shame, which I think is the most important chapter in ‘How to Lose a Country’… We saw the pride of the perpetrator. How proud was the perpetrator? That was another level of shamelessness.”
- She characterizes the emerging system as “techno-fascism”—a modern, ruthless, technology-infused form of authoritarianism.

On Hope, Survival, and Making Beauty

Survival Without Hope:
- Kahn explores the futility of waiting for a hopeful, redemptive future, wondering if perhaps today’s citizens must accept that a better world may not arrive in their lifetimes.
Beauty as Survival:
- Temelkuran pushes back, arguing that hope is not what keeps people going through tremendous suffering or oppression—it's the human drive to create beauty, meaning, and connection in the face of adversity. She shares a story about two Holocaust survivors who find a moment of beauty with a rotten cabbage, underscoring her broader point.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [23:20]: “What makes us hold on to life, what makes us survive, is our urge, our innate urge to create beauty... That’s how you survive. Hope is for lightweights… for really real survival, you kind of do something, do something beautiful to be alive and to stay humane.”

Audience Q&A: Accountability, Complacency, and Participation

Lack of Accountability:
- Maya (audience member from Lebanon) asks about the crucial role of accountability, referencing regional leaders evading justice.
Complacency and Urgency:
- Sanam (audience member, British-Iranian) discusses Western complacency and the importance of active, disruptive participation—not merely peaceful protesting, but persistent civil engagement that unsettles power.
Temelkuran on Participation:
- She cuts through to the emotional core: The real driver for action is not dry calls for accountability or participation, but reviving faith—political faith in change and equality, and a kind of passion that makes participation and sacrifice worthwhile, despite the drudgery and risk.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [30:35]: “What is missing is the pathos, is the passion. Why is the passion not there? Because we are not believing in it, really… The main drive is the loss of faith. How do we refresh faith?... the main drive should be we’re going to change the system and we’re going to bring real equality to this world and we’re going to make you feel dignified human beings.”
Complacency’s True Danger:
- The pain of losing a country is not the dictator or the violence, but the betrayal or inaction of one’s own friends and allies.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [33:58]: “The thing that gives real pain is the complacency of your friends or the people that you consider. You assume that you're on your side. That breaks you…”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Naming Fascism:
- “Immediacy of the situation, urgency of the situation requires us to use these words more than anything, more than academic.” – Ece Temelkuran [05:33]
On British Identity and Fascism:
- “When you call these countries leaders fascist... you are actually hurting the very national identity of these countries. So it's important that you use it responsibly.” – Ece Temelkuran [07:51]
On the Next Generation’s Politics:
- “Only the stupid people could be politicians. The high IQ or like really successful people, it's like beneath them... So it's only understandable their kids have no idea of politics.” – Ece Temelkuran [10:27]
On Loss of Shame:
- “That loss of shame, which I think is the most important chapter in ‘How to Lose a Country’... We saw the pride of the perpetrator.” – Ece Temelkuran [13:32]
On Why Hope Isn't Enough:
- “Hope is for lightweights... for real survival, you kind of do something, do something beautiful to be alive and to stay humane.” – Ece Temelkuran [24:45]
On Accountability, Participation & Faith:
- “But when I left my country, I was about to lose my mind. Because one of the things that, you know, this kind of new neo fascism does is create this confusion, a lot of confusion....” – Ece Temelkuran [30:35]
On Friendships as Political Power:
- “Hold on to your friends and make new friends... at the end it will come to that moral breaking point where you will have to do things for people or you will have to trust people.” – Ece Temelkuran [34:51]

Important Timestamps

[03:50] – Kahn sets the stage: why art flourishes during crisis, and opens the discussion about the language of fascism.
[05:33] – Temelkuran defends the use of “fascism” due to urgency, connecting it to British national identity.
[09:26] – Kahn queries about young people and the lure of authoritarianism.
[10:26] – Temelkuran describes how the 1980s divorced politics from legitimacy in the eyes of the next generation.
[13:32] – On the normalization of dehumanization and pride in perpetration.
[15:59] – Adding climate crisis urgency and the psychological toll of global catastrophe.
[23:20] – Why “creating beauty” is more powerful than hope for survival.
[26:09]–[30:01] – Audience Q&A on accountability, complacency, and the Western disconnect.
[34:51] – Final reflections on the importance of friendship in resisting authoritarianism.

Structure & Narrative Flow

The conversation flows from theoretical and linguistic debates (how to talk about authoritarian shifts) through social and generational analysis, into philosophical ruminations on survival and hope—and lands with calls for both practical and emotional community solidarity as bulwarks against democratic decay. Audience questions help ground these arguments in lived experience, especially from those already acquainted with authoritarianism.

Takeaways for Listeners

Language Matters: Calling out fascism is not academic pedantry, but a necessary recognition of present dangers.
History & Identity: Western nations may be in denial due to deeply held national myths about being ‘immune’ to fascism.
Importance of Action Beyond Hope: Survival and resistance are motivated less by hope, more by creativity, connection, and beauty—even in small gestures.
Complacency Kills: The pathway to dictatorship is paved not just by strong leaders, but collective apathy—especially among those who should resist.
Solidarity Through Friendship: In challenging times, holding fast to and expanding real friendships allows for the kind of trust and resilience needed for resistance.

This summary captures the depth, urgency, and human texture of the conversation, offering a clear roadmap through Temelkuran’s warnings and wisdom for those defending democracy today.

Detailed Summary: Intelligence Squared – "How To Lose Your Country," with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Language of Crisis: "Fascism" and "Populism"

Is it splitting hairs?
- Kahn prompts Temelkuran to reflect on the UK's reluctance to use the word "fascism" and questions whether focusing on labels distracts from action.
  - Quote:
    - Coco Kahn [05:02]: “My first question is, are we just splitting hairs? Does it really matter or is it important to understand populism? Is that a concept that we all need to walk away from here with in order to immunize ourselves from it?”
Urgency in Naming Threats:
- Temelkuran emphasizes that using terms like "fascism" is necessary due to the urgency of rising authoritarianism. Avoiding such language is a way to avoid recognizing the severity of what's happening.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [05:33]: “Immediacy of the situation, urgency of the situation requires us to use these words more than anything, more than academic... It's important that it's used in this country because this country’s national identity is built on Second World War.”
National Identity and Denial:
- She discusses the discomfort in Britain (and similar Western nations) when confronted with the idea that fascism could exist within their borders—because their national mythologies are rooted in having defeated fascism.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [07:51]: “When you call these countries leaders fascist or when you tell that there is fascism in these countries, you are actually hurting the very national identity of these countries. So it’s important that you use it responsibly.”

The Allure of Authoritarianism for the Young

Changing Attitudes:
- Kahn references recent UK data, noting a fifth of under-25s are “okay with a dictatorship,” especially young men. She asks Temelkuran to unpack why.
Impact of Political Disillusionment:
- Temelkuran identifies a generational disconnect from politics, rooted in the post-1980s narrative that politics is dirty and for the foolish, not the talented. The legacies of neoliberalism and liberal democracy have clouded real understanding of political systems.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [10:26]: “1980s did something to our perception of politics. It did not only erase leftist ideas… it gifted us this understanding of politics which is dirty, disgusting... It was like this all over the world... So it's only understandable their kids have no idea of politics.”
Global South Has Lessons:
- She argues that societies with experience under authoritarianism—the so-called “Global South”—have valuable lessons and stamina that Western societies lack.

Dehumanization and Loss of Shame

Mechanisms of Division:
- The conversation identifies the purposeful dehumanization in populist and fascist tactics, visible in language targeting the “other” and in culture wars.
- Temelkuran argues that “loss of shame” is the most dangerous marker of this shift, and that recent events in Gaza have exemplified the normalization of treating some groups and even countries as “disposable.”
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [13:32]: “That loss of shame, which I think is the most important chapter in ‘How to Lose a Country’… We saw the pride of the perpetrator. How proud was the perpetrator? That was another level of shamelessness.”
- She characterizes the emerging system as “techno-fascism”—a modern, ruthless, technology-infused form of authoritarianism.

On Hope, Survival, and Making Beauty

Survival Without Hope:
- Kahn explores the futility of waiting for a hopeful, redemptive future, wondering if perhaps today’s citizens must accept that a better world may not arrive in their lifetimes.
Beauty as Survival:
- Temelkuran pushes back, arguing that hope is not what keeps people going through tremendous suffering or oppression—it's the human drive to create beauty, meaning, and connection in the face of adversity. She shares a story about two Holocaust survivors who find a moment of beauty with a rotten cabbage, underscoring her broader point.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [23:20]: “What makes us hold on to life, what makes us survive, is our urge, our innate urge to create beauty... That’s how you survive. Hope is for lightweights… for really real survival, you kind of do something, do something beautiful to be alive and to stay humane.”

Audience Q&A: Accountability, Complacency, and Participation

Lack of Accountability:
- Maya (audience member from Lebanon) asks about the crucial role of accountability, referencing regional leaders evading justice.
Complacency and Urgency:
- Sanam (audience member, British-Iranian) discusses Western complacency and the importance of active, disruptive participation—not merely peaceful protesting, but persistent civil engagement that unsettles power.
Temelkuran on Participation:
- She cuts through to the emotional core: The real driver for action is not dry calls for accountability or participation, but reviving faith—political faith in change and equality, and a kind of passion that makes participation and sacrifice worthwhile, despite the drudgery and risk.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [30:35]: “What is missing is the pathos, is the passion. Why is the passion not there? Because we are not believing in it, really… The main drive is the loss of faith. How do we refresh faith?... the main drive should be we’re going to change the system and we’re going to bring real equality to this world and we’re going to make you feel dignified human beings.”
Complacency’s True Danger:
- The pain of losing a country is not the dictator or the violence, but the betrayal or inaction of one’s own friends and allies.
  - Quote:
    - Ece Temelkuran [33:58]: “The thing that gives real pain is the complacency of your friends or the people that you consider. You assume that you're on your side. That breaks you…”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Naming Fascism:
- “Immediacy of the situation, urgency of the situation requires us to use these words more than anything, more than academic.” – Ece Temelkuran [05:33]
On British Identity and Fascism:
- “When you call these countries leaders fascist... you are actually hurting the very national identity of these countries. So it's important that you use it responsibly.” – Ece Temelkuran [07:51]
On the Next Generation’s Politics:
- “Only the stupid people could be politicians. The high IQ or like really successful people, it's like beneath them... So it's only understandable their kids have no idea of politics.” – Ece Temelkuran [10:27]
On Loss of Shame:
- “That loss of shame, which I think is the most important chapter in ‘How to Lose a Country’... We saw the pride of the perpetrator.” – Ece Temelkuran [13:32]
On Why Hope Isn't Enough:
- “Hope is for lightweights... for real survival, you kind of do something, do something beautiful to be alive and to stay humane.” – Ece Temelkuran [24:45]
On Accountability, Participation & Faith:
- “But when I left my country, I was about to lose my mind. Because one of the things that, you know, this kind of new neo fascism does is create this confusion, a lot of confusion....” – Ece Temelkuran [30:35]
On Friendships as Political Power:
- “Hold on to your friends and make new friends... at the end it will come to that moral breaking point where you will have to do things for people or you will have to trust people.” – Ece Temelkuran [34:51]

Important Timestamps

[03:50] – Kahn sets the stage: why art flourishes during crisis, and opens the discussion about the language of fascism.
[05:33] – Temelkuran defends the use of “fascism” due to urgency, connecting it to British national identity.
[09:26] – Kahn queries about young people and the lure of authoritarianism.
[10:26] – Temelkuran describes how the 1980s divorced politics from legitimacy in the eyes of the next generation.
[13:32] – On the normalization of dehumanization and pride in perpetration.
[15:59] – Adding climate crisis urgency and the psychological toll of global catastrophe.
[23:20] – Why “creating beauty” is more powerful than hope for survival.
[26:09]–[30:01] – Audience Q&A on accountability, complacency, and the Western disconnect.
[34:51] – Final reflections on the importance of friendship in resisting authoritarianism.

Structure & Narrative Flow

Takeaways for Listeners

Language Matters: Calling out fascism is not academic pedantry, but a necessary recognition of present dangers.
History & Identity: Western nations may be in denial due to deeply held national myths about being ‘immune’ to fascism.
Importance of Action Beyond Hope: Survival and resistance are motivated less by hope, more by creativity, connection, and beauty—even in small gestures.
Complacency Kills: The pathway to dictatorship is paved not just by strong leaders, but collective apathy—especially among those who should resist.
Solidarity Through Friendship: In challenging times, holding fast to and expanding real friendships allows for the kind of trust and resilience needed for resistance.

This summary captures the depth, urgency, and human texture of the conversation, offering a clear roadmap through Temelkuran’s warnings and wisdom for those defending democracy today.

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How To Lose Your Country, with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

Summary

Detailed Summary: Intelligence Squared – "How To Lose Your Country," with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Language of Crisis: "Fascism" and "Populism"

The Allure of Authoritarianism for the Young

Dehumanization and Loss of Shame

On Hope, Survival, and Making Beauty

Audience Q&A: Accountability, Complacency, and Participation

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Structure & Narrative Flow

Takeaways for Listeners

Transcript

Summary

Detailed Summary: Intelligence Squared – "How To Lose Your Country," with Ece Temelkuran (Part Two)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Language of Crisis: "Fascism" and "Populism"

The Allure of Authoritarianism for the Young

Dehumanization and Loss of Shame

On Hope, Survival, and Making Beauty

Audience Q&A: Accountability, Complacency, and Participation

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Structure & Narrative Flow

Takeaways for Listeners