Podcast Summary: Intelligence Squared
Episode: Is Greece Becoming the New Borderland Between East and West?
Guest: Sean Matthews
Host: Helen Carr
Date: January 19, 2026
Overview
In this episode, historian Helen Carr interviews Greek American journalist and author Sean Matthews on the dynamic position of Greece as a historical and contemporary crossroads between East and West. Drawing on Matthews' book, The New Byzantines: The Rise of Greece and the Return of the Near East, the episode explores Greece’s shifting geopolitical, cultural, and economic ties—analyzing its past as part of the Byzantine and Ottoman empires, its modern role on the periphery of Europe, and its emerging status as a “borderland” amid changes in global power.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Greece’s Enduring Identity Struggle
[02:51 – 04:28]
- Carr and Matthews set the stage by discussing Greece’s oscillating identity between East and West—historically drawn to Europe since its independence from the Ottomans, yet geographically and culturally linked to the Near East.
- Matthews: “At this stage now, with a decline we're seeing of Western powers in Europe and Greece's geographical position... it's being pulled back to the east, which of course it was always a part of.” [03:21]
Western Fascination with Ancient Greece
[04:28 – 06:25]
- Matthews analyses how 19th-century Western archaeological and antiquarian interest pushed Greece into the European fold, often sidelining its Byzantine and Ottoman legacy in favor of a romanticized ancient Athens.
- Cites David Holden’s Greece Without Columns for challenging the “myth of a western Greece.”
The Greece-Turkey Rivalry and Shifting Alliances
[06:25 – 09:46]
- Post-independence, Greece and Turkey joined NATO together but have consistently been geopolitical rivals.
- Matthews emphasizes the shifting regional balance, with a resurgent Turkey becoming more independent from the West, while US intervention—previously a stabilizing force—is now less certain.
- Matthews: “Historically, Greece was always reliant on Western powers to keep Turkey in check... as the US pulls out... Greece is not able to rely on the United States as much as it was decades ago.” [08:38]
Cultural Connections and Personal Anecdotes
[09:46 – 11:48]
- Matthews reflects on discovering deep cultural ties between Greece and the Middle East—shared foods, coffee, religious practices—while traveling as a Greek-American journalist.
- Matthews: “You can have souvlaki, almost the same food, but you don't have to worry about the war and conflict.” [12:38]
Tourism, Economy, and the East-West Perception
[11:48 – 15:14]
- The portrayal of Greece as a European holiday destination obscures its eastern cultural influences.
- Matthews details how tourism and foreign investment, especially post-2008 crisis, have transformed Athens and Greece's economy—for better and (through rising costs for locals) worse.
- Matthews: “Greece's economic recovery... is driven by this huge influx of real estate investments, speculation, tourism.” [13:58]
What Changed in 2019?
[15:14 – 17:00]
- Marks 2019 as a turning point: stereotypes of Greece as a “lazy socialist state” or a victim of “Muslim migration” no longer fit.
- Notably, much recent investment comes from eastern and Middle Eastern countries, not western powers.
Greece as a Cultural and Geopolitical Borderland
[17:50 – 19:56]
- Greece’s geography allows it to serve as a space of connection—via the Mediterranean—rather than a rigid border. Historical and present migration, economic flows, and conflicts all underscore this status.
- Matthews: “The Mediterranean kind of connects much more than it divides and that Greece is on the front lines of that.” [19:44]
The Significance of the Islands
[19:56 – 25:14]
- Greek islands show diverse influences: Corfu (never Ottoman, more Western), Mykonos/Santorini (global tourism hubs, “Dubai-ification”), and the eastern Aegean islands (Chios, Rhodes, Lesvos) which retain stronger eastern ties.
- Memorable anecdote: Matthews discovers mastic from Chios is more familiar to Middle Easterners than to Westerners—a symbol of overlooked eastern connections.
Cyprus: The Reluctant Omission and Turkish Revisionism
[28:31 – 32:33]
- Cyprus is left out of The New Byzantines owing to its complexity but is discussed as emblematic of Turkey’s pivot from the West and the failure of EU integration.
- Ongoing disputes over maritime zones, natural gas, and Turkish involvement in Greek border regions highlight Turkey’s “revisionist” policies.
Conflict, Migration, and Greek-Israeli Relations
[33:06 – 37:26]
- Greece’s evolving partnership with Israel—rooted in mutual concern over Turkey—marks a significant shift from Greece’s previous pro-Arab stance. This is controversial at home, with popular Greek opposition to Israel’s war in Gaza contrasting with government alignment.
- Matthews: “There's a real tension... between Greeks opposed to Israel’s war in Gaza... and the Greek government which has formed this very, very close partnership with Israel.” [34:50]
Greece’s Place in a Shifting World Order
[38:13 – 44:08]
- Greece clings to EU/NATO membership for security but seeks outs new alliances and investments, especially as Western institutions appear less stable and powerful.
- Greece acts as a bellwether for the volatility of the wider region—at the crossroads of shifting alliances, migration flows, and economic realignment.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“Greece... is being pulled back to the east, which of course it was always a part of.”
— Sean Matthews, 03:21 -
“Try getting a reservation at a mid popular restaurant on a Thursday night. You can't do it even in winter!”
— Sean Matthews, 13:46 -
“The Mediterranean kind of connects much more than it divides and that Greece is on the front lines of that.”
— Sean Matthews, 19:44 -
“People from the Middle east actually knew more about these eastern Greek Aegean islands than people in the UK and the US.”
— Sean Matthews, 24:38 -
“The Greeks are the stable ones and the Western institutions are the ones that look pretty shaky, which I find very ironic.”
— Sean Matthews, 38:44 -
“Greece is at the front lines of all of this. So Greece... is the country to watch in the future.”
— Sean Matthews, 41:28
Timestamps of Key Segments
- Greece’s East-West Identity: 02:51–04:28
- Western Fascination and Myths: 04:28–06:25
- Greek-Turkish Rivalry: 06:25–09:46
- Personal and Cultural Ties: 09:46–11:48
- Tourism’s Role in Greece’s Identity: 11:48–15:14
- Post-2019 Shifts & Investments: 15:14–17:50
- Greece as Borderland Connector: 17:50–19:56
- The Islands and East-West Influences: 19:56–25:14
- Cyprus, Revisionism, and Borders: 28:31–32:33
- Greek-Israeli Alignment: 33:06–37:26
- Greece’s Global Role Going Forward: 38:13–44:08
Conclusion
This episode paints Greece as the “canary in the coal mine” of geopolitical change—uniquely situated at the intersection of European, Middle Eastern, and global currents. Matthews calls attention to the complexities (and opportunities) facing Greece as Western influence wanes, regional alliances shift, and the legacy of history echoes in new forms of connectivity, rivalry, and resilience. Greece is not just on the border: it is the borderland, reflecting and shaping the tides of East and West.