Intelligence Squared Podcast

Episode: Jonathan Freedland on The Secret Rebels who Defied Hitler (Part One)
Date: January 7, 2026
Host: Jenny Kleeman
Guest: Jonathan Freedland
Producer: Mia Sorrenti
Location: Live at the Kiln Theatre, London

Overview

In this gripping live interview, journalist and broadcaster Jenny Kleeman sits down with Jonathan Freedland, acclaimed author of The Escape Artist and now The Traitor's Circle, to discuss his latest book: a meticulously researched account of elite, non-Jewish German resisters who opposed the Nazi regime from within. Freedland uncovers the story of a fateful 1943 tea party—never before fully told or published in Germany—where members of a secret circle of dissenters met, unaware that a traitor among them would soon betray their cause to the Gestapo. The episode illuminates both the moral complexity and personal risks of resisting totalitarianism, while also showcasing Freedland’s accessible, thriller-like storytelling style.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Enduring Mystique of WWII

• [04:42] Freedland on Why WWII Captivates Us:
  • WWII persists as a lens for examining "really sharp moral clarity... the last case of something that offers really sharp moral clarity, that we can use it as a kind of extreme case of good versus evil."
  • He critiques the binary image of Germans as evil and everyone else as good, noting the complicity of other nations but also the existence of German dissenters.
  • Quote:
    • “We want it to be really straightforward. And what's fascinating to me is... even into Germany. This story... has never been told in any book, including in Germany. It's never been published in German or in Germany.” —Jonathan Freedland [07:25]
• Shortcuts in historical memory and how public reluctance to discuss internal German resistance complicates the narrative and, Freedland suggests, prevents full reckoning with the past.

Discovery of the Traitor’s Circle

• [09:03] The story began with a passing reference in a Himmler speech, referencing a "reactionary cabal prattling over tea with the widow Solf."
• Freedland describes the detective work: following footnotes in Nazi speeches, reading unpublished German memoirs, and working with researcher Jonathan Cummings.
• Using trial transcripts, letters, and diaries—often provided by descendants—he reconstructed detailed scenes, even down to what was served at the infamous tea party.
• Quote:
  • “There is no fiction in this book... Every scene, every bit of dialogue, every description is because things were written down—whether they were the people themselves or their tormentors.” —Jonathan Freedland [13:55]

Challenges and Nuances of Research

• [11:57] Addressing the problem of reliability when sources are descendants of the main actors—risk of exaggeration or omitting uncomfortable truths.
• Discovering widespread reticence in Germany to highlight familial heroism out of fear of appearing to minimize national guilt.
• Quote:
  • “There was a trial and the transcripts of that trial are there and it meant I could reconstruct scenes in here with dialogue... There is a historical record. It is a cliché, but the Nazis did document everything.” —Jonathan Freedland [13:47]

Writing and Structure: A Historical Thriller

• [14:43] Kleeman praises the "rip-roaring" and page-turning nature of the book, likening it to a thriller.
• Freedland consciously mimicked Agatha Christie’s style, structuring the narrative as a real-life whodunit:
  • “…immediately I thought to myself, it's an Agatha Christie story. That's what this is. This is a whodunnit. You've got a group of people... I want the reader to be thinking, 'oh, it's obviously the first countess. Oh, hang on, maybe it's the diplomat…'” —Jonathan Freedland [16:04]
• Every chapter ends with a cliffhanger; tension and dread build around the group’s looming betrayal.
• Freedland emphasizes the importance of matching genre and tone to the true drama of historical events.

Profiles of the Key Dissidents

Otto Kiep: The Diplomat Who Chose Defiance

• [18:29] Otto Kiep was a rising German diplomatic star, Germany’s consul general in New York in the early 1930s.
• He was born in Scotland, maintained a heavy British accent, and led a “Great Gatsby” lifestyle.
• In 1933, after Hitler’s rise, Kiep was faced with whether or not to attend a Jewish charity dinner in honor of Einstein.
  • Attending would antagonize Berlin, declining would align him with the Nazis.
  • His decision, Freedland argues, "sets him on a path that will lead ten years later to that tea party... a whole world contained in that one incident." [21:40]
• Quote:
  • “They don’t always make the right decision... they are kind of wearing capes with lantern jewels, superheroes... they sort of fumble their way towards this position.” —Jonathan Freedland [19:05]

Elisabeth von Thadden: The Headmistress of Quiet Defiance

• [26:22] A Pomeranian aristocrat and progressive girls' school founder deeply rooted in Christian faith and responsibility.
• Initially unsure what the Nazi takeover would mean, but gradually opposed the regime by removing Hitler’s portrait and accepting “non-Aryan” (Jewish) students.
• The school became a waystation for Jewish girls awaiting emigration, quietly subverting Nazi policy while risking her own safety.
• Quote:
  • “It becomes a kind of hiding place that the daughter can hold out in that school until they get the word.” —Jonathan Freedland [27:50]

Countess Maria von Maltzan: The Audacious Rebel

• [29:35] Described as having “chutzpah,” von Maltzan came from lavish aristocratic roots but always rebelled—training as a vet against her mother’s wishes, marrying against class and political expectations.
• She harbored Jews in her Berlin apartment, successfully concealing, among others, her Jewish lover Hans Herschel.
• Notable story: When the Gestapo searched her home, she dared them to shoot into a sofa behind which Hans was hiding, even requesting reimbursement for damaged upholstery if they tried—a display of supreme confidence and quick wit.
• Quote (Full Reading from the Book):
  • “Take out your gun and shoot through the couch... if you don't believe me, all you have to do is take out your gun and shoot through the couch. However, she said she had one condition. If they went ahead and opened fire, 'I insist that you give me a credit note for new upholstery fabric and that you pay the repair costs...'” [34:23]
• The story demonstrates the unique social power and poise of some resisters, as well as the everyday dangers they faced.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the difficulty of acknowledging resistance in Germany:
  “If you are drawing attention to this person because there is actually a skeleton in that cupboard. It's also seen as... unseemly because it does seem to take away from... the grave crimes of the German people.” —Jonathan Freedland [12:45]
• On the research process:
  “…once you had the names to go on... you could find them. And there are surviving descendants…delighted when a knock on the door came and said, 'Look, I’ve got—I don’t have much, but I’ve got this.' And suddenly you’ve got a file of papers.” —Jonathan Freedland [11:36]
• On choosing tone and structure:
  “I wanted it to be... a proper work of history. But I wanted it to offer the kind of pleasures of reading fiction.” —Jonathan Freedland [15:38]
• On moral ambiguity and the variety of resistance:
  “Some are... on the edges of these plots to kill Hitler... others... a countess who always carried two heavy bags of shopping so if someone gave her the Hitler salute, 'Sorry, I wish I could, but my hands are full.'” —Jonathan Freedland [19:24]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:18 — Introduction to Jonathan Freedland and his work
• 04:42 — Why WWII remains so resonant, and the complexities of good vs evil
• 09:47 — How the story was discovered (the “tea party” in a Himmler speech)
• 12:23 — Challenges of researching through descendants, historical reticence
• 14:43 — Literary style: crafting the book as a suspenseful thriller
• 18:29 — Introduction and story of Otto Kiep
• 26:22 — Story of Elisabeth von Thadden, her school, and small-scale resistance
• 29:35 — Countess Maria von Maltzan and the Gestapo sofa story (with dramatic reading)
• 34:23 — End of the Gestapo episode and analysis of von Maltzan’s character

Episode Tone

The tone is energetic, accessible, and at times playful, with a strong undercurrent of moral seriousness. Freedland’s storytelling blends historical gravitas with the thrill and suspense of a classic whodunit, a blend that both interviewer and live audience clearly relish.

Summary

This episode provides a deeply researched yet highly engaging account of the lesser-known German aristocrats who risked everything—often in small, personal ways—to resist Hitler’s regime. Listeners are introduced to a complex, nuanced history that challenges simplistic narratives and offers suspense, human drama, and unexpected heroism. Freedland’s approach, highlighted through his conversation with Kleeman, makes history vivid and urgent, while honoring the ambiguity and flaws of its protagonists.