Podcast Summary: Jonathan Freedland on The Secret Rebels Who Defied Hitler (Part Two)

Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Host: Intelligence Squared
Guest: Jonathan Freedland (columnist, broadcaster, and author of The Traitor’s Circle)
Moderator: Jenny Kleeman
Date: January 9, 2026
Location: Kiln Theatre, London

Overview

In this live episode, Jonathan Freedland delves into the extraordinary, largely forgotten true stories from his book The Traitor’s Circle, focusing on the German aristocrats, diplomats, and everyday citizens who risked everything to oppose Hitler’s regime from within. The discussion moves beyond popular culture’s depiction of Nazi Germany to highlight the courage, motivations, and moral complexity of these secret rebels—especially the women among them.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Role of Privilege and Class in Resistance

• Privilege as Both Shield and Motivation:
  • German aristocrats like Maria von Maltzan had the status and confidence to confront the Gestapo or even Hitler himself.

    “These were people who would have been completely untouched. … The Nazis were not coming after people like this, they would have been fine.” (Jonathan Freedland, 03:37)

  • This confidence was necessary but not sufficient—most aristocrats sided with the Nazis, particularly after Hitler promised to restore their historic titles.
  • Only a minority, despite their privilege, chose to resist.

The Solf Women: Courage and Anxiety

• Hanna and Lagi Solf:
  • Hanna Solf and her daughter Lagi, part of a well-connected diplomatic family, used their networks to protect Jews and disseminate the truth about Nazi atrocities.

    “They use [the Solf Salon] as a way of making sure that the facts of what's happening that they know get in front of diplomats from abroad, get word out.” (Jonathan Freedland, 06:02)

  • Hanna was “relentless” in aiding persecuted Jews, even forging papers and hiding people in her home.
  • Lagi Solf, described as suffering from severe anxiety, showed remarkable courage despite constant fear:

    “I'm never again going to use the word fearless as a synonym for brave … She had huge amounts of fears, number of fears, but she overcame them. And that to me is true courage.” (Jonathan Freedland, 08:18)

The Chilling Efficiency of Villainy: Leo Lange

• Leo Lange, Gestapo Detective and Perpetrator of the Holocaust:
  • Initially imagined as a typical “detective story” villain, Lange was, in reality, a key figure in early Holocaust atrocities.
  • He developed and implemented mobile gassing vans, later establishing the first death camp at Chelmno, responsible for around 170,000 deaths.

    “He is a pioneering perpetrator of the Holocaust. … He becomes the man who will pursue the people at the Tea Party.” (Jonathan Freedland, 13:33)

  • Lange's hunt for Berlin’s hidden Jews directly intersected with the stories of secret rebels.

Moral Complexity and the Phenomenon of Jewish Betrayers

• “Blond Poison” – Stella Goldschlag:
  • Jewish “grabbers” or “snatchers” were coerced into betraying fellow Jews in exchange for leniency for themselves or their families.
  • Stella Goldschlag, known as the “Blond Poison,” became notorious for entrapping hidden Jews in Berlin, even betraying her own husband.

    “The very first person she portrayed as was a kind of test … was her own husband. She turned him in.” (Jonathan Freedland, 18:50)

Rethinking “Complicity” and Generational Memory

• Personal Reflections on Growing Up Jewish After the War:
  • Freedland describes growing up in a household that shunned all things German, assuming all Germans were complicit.
  • Research revealed that about 3 million Germans were arrested or punished for “crimes of dissent,” representing about 5% of the population:

    “It equates to about 5%. So it means 5% rebelled, 95% absolutely did not. And so we have to reckon with that.” (Jonathan Freedland, 22:20)

  • The legacy of complicity versus resistance remains sensitive and unresolved, especially within Germany itself.

Nature of Courage and Who Rebels

• What Makes a Resister?
  • The common traits among the rebels:
    • Belief in a higher authority, whether class lineage or religious faith.

      “If you believe you will be held to account by something bigger than the government and … the Fuhrer, then you may act differently.” (Jonathan Freedland, 29:20)

    • Strong relationships with their fathers; a sense of confidence and equality instilled from childhood.
  • Self-examination: Most people prefer to imagine they’d be part of the courageous 5%, but statistically, most would not.

Resonance with Contemporary Politics

• Why Write This Book Now?
  • Freedland points to recurring attacks on independent institutions in modern democracies as echoes of the past:

    “There are authoritarian and tyrannical systems of government that do recur ... And you can see that pattern in Viktor Orban's Hungary ... and yes, you can see it in Donald Trump's United States.” (Jonathan Freedland, 32:15)

  • The dilemmas faced by Germans under Hitler—whether to comply, wait, or resist—are not so dissimilar from those in emerging or embattled democracies today.

The Enduring Existence of Courage

• Does such courage still exist?
  • Freedland expresses optimism, citing current dissidents in autocratic societies (e.g., Venezuela, Russia).
  • The courage to dissent endures, though circumstances vary in extremity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “While that [confidence of class] was necessary as it were, it wasn't sufficient … most of them fell in line very quickly and with some enthusiasm for Adolf Hitler.”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 04:09

• “I'm never again going to use the word fearless as a synonym for brave.”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 08:18

• “The first commandant of the first death camp was Leo Lange. He is a pioneering perpetrator of the Holocaust.”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 13:33

• “Stella Goldschlag ... became this active agent who haunted the remaining Jews of Berlin. And they called her, as you say, the Blond Poison.”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 18:57

• “It equates to about 5%. So it means 5% rebelled, 95% absolutely did not. And so we have to reckon with that.”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 22:20

• “It requires a tremendous degree of self belief, if not arrogance, to say I would have been one of those 5%. The chances are the high probability is we wouldn't...”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 28:16

• “There are authoritarian and tyrannical systems of government that do recur … And you can see that pattern in Viktor Orban's Hungary ... and yes, you can see it in Donald Trump's United States.”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 32:15

• “There are people demonstrating that courage and taking great risks. What still intrigues me about this group particularly is ... these people do these things when they had nothing, nothing to gain from it.”
  – Jonathan Freedland, 36:37

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 03:14 | Discussion of aristocratic privilege as both a shield and a burden for resisters | | 06:02 | The Solf mother and daughter’s acts of resistance | | 09:48 | The role and history of Gestapo detective Leo Lange | | 14:52 | Jewish betrayers and the story of “Blond Poison” | | 19:32 | Moderator explores Freedland’s personal connection and the legacy of “no good Germans” | | 27:36 | What defines a resister—are some people just different? | | 31:44 | Relevance of this history to current global politics | | 34:47 | Does true courage still exist today? | | 36:48 | Closing and thanks |

Conclusion

Jonathan Freedland's conversation brings nuance, depth, and personal reflection to the narrative of resistance within Nazi Germany, challenging listeners to reconsider the simplistic categories of good and evil. The episode examines the cost, motivation, and character of those who resist tyranny, highlighting both the power and the rarity of such bravery—a lesson as urgent now as it was then.