Julian Barnes in Conversation with Ian McEwan (Part Two)
Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Date: February 3, 2026
Event: Live at Union Chapel, London
Episode Overview
In this rich, reflective conversation, celebrated novelists Julian Barnes and Ian McEwan discuss Barnes’s new and final novel Departures, ruminate on a lifetime of reading and writing, the craft of the opening line, the meaning of endings, autofiction, mortality, and their literary influences. The event, marking Barnes’s 80th birthday, features warm anecdotes, literary analysis, philosophical musings, audience interactions, and Barnes’s farewell reading.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Practice and Pleasure of Rereading ([02:05]–[04:47])
- Julian Barnes recounts having recently reread Tolstoy’s War and Peace and Prue Shaw’s edition of Dante’s Commedia.
- “About 30 years ago, I thought, Inferno: great. Purgatorio: pretty good. Paradiso: boring... And it’s not like that at all.” [02:27]
- Praises Shaw’s integrated translation and commentary for illuminating the political and contemporary aspects of Paradiso.
- Ian McEwan shares an anecdote about failing to reread War and Peace after knee surgery due to “the strange effect of very powerful OPA painkillers.” [04:06]
- “I read the first page seven or eight times and then thought, I’m not up to this. I cannot do this.” [04:37]
2. The Artistry of First Lines ([04:50]–[12:24])
- McEwan quotes memorable first lines from Barnes’s books and others, sparking discussion:
- From The Porcupine: “The old man stood as close to the window as the soldier would allow.” [05:17]
- From Departures: “She stood before us without notes, books or nerves. The lectern was occupied by her handbag. She looked around, smiled, was still, and began.” [06:05]
- McEwan likens starting a novel to entering a silent, expectant room.
- “It’s as if you enter a sort of crowded room and everyone falls silent and you have to speak.” [06:27]
- Barnes describes his unpredictable process:
- “I never assume that the first line I write down... is going to be the first line of the novel... Sometimes the start... just begins to emerge and says, move me forward, move me forward.” [07:47]
- Discusses the tension between control and liberty in opening a book.
- Discussion of famous first lines as “complete lies,” e.g. Austen’s and Tolstoy’s.
- “Happy families are not all the same... Nice things are nicer than nasty things.” – referencing Kingsley Amis and Iris Murdoch [09:12 – 10:50]
3. Life, Reading, and Writing: A Venn Diagram ([12:24]–[14:56])
- McEwan quotes Barnes: “Life and reading are not separate activities. When you read a great book, you don’t escape from life, you plunge deeper into it.”
- “What you are essentially doing is furthering your understanding of life’s subtleties, paradoxes, joys, pains and truths.” [12:53]
- Barnes admits to the sentiment but jokes about his “slightly pompous tone” [13:13], insisting writing must also be “drenched” in lived experience.
- Both authors agree on the inseparability and interpenetration of life and reading.
4. Jimmy the Dog: Literature and Animal Minds ([15:01]–[18:12])
- Barnes reminisces about his Jack Russell, Jimmy, who is immortalized, by full name “James Russell,” in his fiction.
- “You could stroke him in the daytime, but not once the sun had set.” [15:31]
- McEwan points out a line in Departures, “he doesn’t even know he’s a dog,” which Barnes attributes to a witty comment McEwan once made during a real-life dog encounter.
- “Doesn’t know he’s an old dog. He doesn’t even know he’s a dog. Maestro.” [17:33]
- Leads to dialogue on animal consciousness and philosophical questions about being.
5. Mortality and the Final Novel ([18:12]–[26:32])
- McEwan introduces the subject of death, referencing Larkin and philosopher Thomas Nagel:
- “If death is the unequivocal and permanent end to our existence, the question arises whether it is a bad thing to die.” – Thomas Nagel [19:55–20:22]
- Barnes: “I would say, on the whole, yes, it is and will soon be a very bad thing to die.” [20:22]
- Barnes describes his decision to make Departures his last book:
- “I thought, well, maybe I’ve played all my tunes, maybe this is the last cadenza... the more as time went by, I just became convinced that it was the right time to go.” [23:45]
- Cites Ingmar Bergman: “I take my hat while I can still reach the hat rack.” [25:16]
- McEwan posits that being a novelist is “a way of being,” suggesting Barnes may never truly stop noticing and thinking as a writer. Barnes concedes he’ll notice things as a human being, even if not for fiction.
6. Changing One’s Mind and Reviews ([26:32]–[27:02])
- Light-hearted exchange about whether Barnes might retract his retirement from writing:
- McEwan: “For which you’re free to do. Which you’re free to change your mind.” [26:26]
- Barnes: “Oh, I see... That would be rather sneaky.”
- McEwan jokes that declaring a “last” book gets nicer reviews, referencing the Financial Times: “And it works.” [26:37]
- Barnes replies: “I’m a much more straightforward person than that.” [26:54]
Audience Q&A Highlights
On Illness and Attitude ([28:41]–[29:43])
- Healthcare professional: Asks if Barnes’s diagnosis changed his approach to life.
- Barnes: “It didn’t really change me... It wasn’t part of my decision to make this my last book.” [29:43]
On Unfinished Books ([30:08]–[32:17])
- Audience: Contrasts Barnes’s desire for a completed "final novel" with Flaubert dying before finishing Bouvard and Pécuchet.
- Barnes: Argues B&P is “almost fittingly unfinished,” as the characters’ quest for totality was impossible. [31:17]
- Adds that the task’s impossibility suits the novel’s incomplete state.
Booker Prize Reflections ([32:22]–[34:08])
- Audience: Asks which of their books should have won the Booker.
- Barnes: Jokes about being “defeated” the same year as McEwan, who downplays the awards system: “Can’t win it every year.” [33:42]
- McEwan: “I should have won it for Atonement, of course.” [34:03]
- Barnes: “I should have won it for Flaubert’s Parrot.” [34:05]
Advice for Young Writers ([34:37]–[35:02])
- Audience: What advice for writers in a reading-averse world?
- Barnes: “Read more. Whenever someone young says, ‘I want to be a writer.’ What should I do? I say, read, read, read.” [34:37]
- McEwan: “How about write?” [34:46]
- Both agree you must read before writing.
View on Autofiction ([35:12]–[37:52])
- Audience: Thoughts on autofiction as memory approach?
- Barnes: Views are mixed: “Autofiction depends on someone having an interesting life. ... Some ... just have a great interest in their own lives.”
- Calls some autofiction “maximalist minimalism.” [35:16]
- Cites Le Notaire du Havre as an early autofiction.
- McEwan (via Henry James): “The deepest quality of a work of art will always be the quality of the mind of the producer. Autofiction from a very, very interesting mind will be a very interesting autofiction. If you don’t have an interesting mind... don’t become a novelist.” [37:52]
- Barnes: “You heard it tonight. Don’t do it.” [37:52]
Finale: A Farewell Reading ([38:06]–[41:41])
- Julian Barnes shares the poignant last page of Departures, a literary goodbye to his readers, blending gratitude, mortality, and the intimacy of the writer–reader relationship.
- “I shall miss you, whatever that means. Each word in that phrase is weakened and undermined by death... Instead, let me thank you for your sturdy presence, invisible, yet lurking like my cancer... I would be nothing without you. So I’ll just rest my hand briefly on her forearm. No, don’t stop looking. And then slip away. No, don’t stop looking. Thank you.” [38:06–41:41]
- Ian McEwan:
- “Julian, do not slip away too soon and know that we’ll either be there before you or right at your back. So thank you very much.” [41:41]
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
On reading Dante’s Paradiso:
- “I thought, Inferno. Great. Purgatorio. Pretty good. Paradiso. Boring. ...But it’s not like that at all.”
– Julian Barnes [02:27]
On first lines:
- “I never assume that the first line I write down when I’m beginning a novel is going to be the first line of the novel... It’s a mixture of control and liberty.”
– Julian Barnes [07:47]
On life and reading:
- “Life and reading are not separate activities. When you read a great book, you don’t escape from life, you plunge deeper into it.”
– Julian Barnes [12:53, as quoted by McEwan]
On the meaning of finishing:
- “I take my hat while I can still reach the hat rack.”
– quoting Ingmar Bergman [25:16]
On autofiction:
- “Autofiction depends on someone having an interesting life, seems to me. And sometimes some autofictionists don’t. They just have a great interest in their own lives.”
– Julian Barnes [35:16]
On the writer-reader relationship:
- “I do not write ex cathedra. Novelists shouldn’t speak down to readers from an assumption of greater wisdom... Instead, I prefer an image of writer and reader on a café pavement in some unidentified town...”
– Julian Barnes (final reading) [38:06–41:41]
Timestamps for Major Segments
- Rereading Classics & Dante: [02:05]–[04:47]
- On First Lines & Narrative Openings: [04:50]–[12:24]
- Interplay of Life, Reading, Writing: [12:24]–[14:56]
- Jimmy the Dog & Animal Consciousness: [15:01]–[18:12]
- Death, Endings, and Departures: [18:12]–[26:32]
- Booker Prize and Friendly Rivalry: [32:22]–[34:08]
- Advice to Young Writers: [34:37]–[35:02]
- Autofiction Discussion: [35:12]–[37:52]
- Final Farewell Reading: [38:06]–[41:41]
Closing Tone
The episode brims with literary wit, reflective wisdom, and the easy rapport of two literary giants. Julian Barnes’s candor and modesty complement Ian McEwan’s probing and playful questions, resulting in a conversation as insightful as it is entertaining—a fitting tribute to a storied literary career and a moving meditation on creativity, mortality, and the enduring bond between author and reader.