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Intelligence Squared
Michael Rosen on Hope, Happiness and Finding Joy in the Small Things (Part Two)
00:42:01
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, everyone. I'm Conor, head of programming at Intelligence Squared. As we head into the festive season, what is for many of us, a time of comfort, celebration and gatherings round a table. Most of us won't think twice about the clean water running from our taps that make it all possible. But for millions of people around the world, this is something they simply don't have. That's why here at the Intelligence Squared podcast, we're proud to partner with WaterAid, a charity working to change this and to shine a spotlight on something that connects us all. In a special episode of our podcast, journalist Coco Khan speaks to Amica Godfrey, Water AIDS Executive Director of International Programs. Amica has spent more than 25 years working across the world in the water, sanitation and hygiene sector. She shares powerful stories about how clean water keeps children in school, helps mothers support their families or run businesses and and unlocks potential for entire communities. To hear the full conversation, just search Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts and listen to the episode titled Everything Starts with water, released on 17 December. Listen to the full episode now on the Intelligence Squared podcast.
- [01:17]
B
When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold cranberry and winter spice flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is a refreshing way to shake things up this sipping season, and only for a limited time. Sprite obey your thirst. Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. For this episode, we're rejoining for part two of our recent live event with author, poet and broadcaster Michael Rosen. Rosen joined us live at the Shore Theater to explore grief recovery and the everyday moments that give us joy and and meaning. He was in conversation with presenter and broadcaster El Osili Wood. If you haven't heard part one, do just jump back an episode and get up to speed. But now let's rejoin the conversation live at the Shaw Theatre in London.
- [02:14]
C
I feel like that leads very nicely into the next chapter. I want to talk about where you talk about the balance of the ideal and the good enough. You know, not necessarily just about bathwater, but in life. And I think so many of us struggle with, you know, that feeling of do we settle for the good enough or do we reach for perfection? So how do you find that balance?
- [02:34]
D
Yes, we will do that. That's under H for hummus. That's right. I was just going to say my mother, I did say about my mother was that she did see things slightly sideways and say Things that you never quite knew whether she was being serious or not. So I can remember my dad was out of the room, right. And her turning to me and saying, ask your father what he's doing and tell him to stop it. Did she mean that? Did she mean that? Anyway, yeah. So hummus is very, very important to me. Hummus, well, it's everything, really. I can't think of anything else other than hummus. I have to have hummus every day. Now, the point about hummus, I have an ideal hummus. So a little few moments on for me, the ideal. I'm not saying it's yours. My ideal hummus. My ideal hummus is gritty. Now, I thought might get groans there, but never mind. So my ideal hummus is rough, it's gritty. Not too much tahini. Can have tahini, but not too much. Okay. Olive oil. I want to be able to taste the olive oil, taste the lemon juice, taste the garlic. I've got to get all those tastes, okay? And then I want some paprika on the top and some broadleaf parsley. That is my ideal hummus. But there's another kind of hummus, and that's the hummus you've got. And the point about the hummus you've got is that it is good enough. And so I can hold these two things in my head at the same time. I'm not saying that I'm particularly clever for doing that, but I do hold those two things in my head. So, for example, the Turkish cafe just round the corner from us makes hummus. It's very nice and it's lovely with Turkish bread, but for my first taste, it's got a bit too much tahini in it. But as it's the hummus I'm having, it's great. It's the hummus in the restaurant I'm having it. It's really nice with the Turkish bread or the pita bread, it's absolutely great. It's absolutely fine. But at other times, if I'm on the hunt for the perfect hummus, some people say, well, why don't you bloody make it yourself? Well, the simple reason is I can never make it good as the best hummus I can buy. That's another thing I also have to reconcile with myself. And so, as it happens, I've found the perfect hummus. It's sold in Ronnie's at the end of the road, so it's absolutely fine. But it's holding those two. What's really three things in my head at the same Time. And it's. It is a sort of philosophy in life, isn't it, that if you only ever yearn for the best, you will never. Well, you'll only be happy maybe about three times in your life because you'll never get it. So it's learning how to accept that what you've got may well be good enough because you've got it. Saying that when I was in hospital, yes, when I was in Hospital in 2020, Emma wasn't allowed to bring in hummus. This wasn't a singular act of cruelty I just directed personally at me. It's because there was lockdown and nobody could bring in everything, anything. And I think Emma had an interesting non relationship with the chaplain. I think some people were bribing the chaplain to take things in. But anyway, basically I never got hummus. All I got was, well, do you know what? Last night I met the nutritionist and I was actually quite angry with her. No, no, no, I mean she. Very, very cruel woman. Because she had come to my bedside and said, what would you most like right now? And I said, a cold smoothie, A cold berry smoothie, preferably with a sort of black currant taste to it. She said, I can do that for you. I thought, God blimey, they do call them angels, don't they? Even the nutritionists, for Christ's sake. And she came back and you know what she came back with? Warm sick. Seriously, a little bottle of warm sick. And she said, there you are. And I said, oh, that's great. I said, oh, it's feel very cold. And she said, we'd really like you to drink all of that. And I went and it was called something like, it's all in here or everything you'll need to stand up, which you may well do sometime in the next year. It was called things like that. Now wait a minute, what's it called? Ensure. Oh, yeah, there's some nurses here. Yeah, nutritionists, they're going to gang up on me any minute now. They're going to rush the stage and tell me that I'm being cruel to nutritionists. Anyway, it wasn't even cold and it tasted of sick. It did. And they said, would you like it banana flavored or banana flavored? I said, I don't care what it is, it's sick. Whether it's banana taste or non banana say it still tastes of sick. Anyway. And they kept bringing it to me and said I had to if I wanted to grow up and be a big boy or something like that. And, and this nutritionist last night, she was all beaming and happy and thought, I think she was nice. And I said, no, it was one of the cruelest things that have ever happened to me. Yeah, so that wasn't good enough. But I did think up a story while I was there. I was lying in bed and I thought of a cat who loved pasta. Is related. Anyway, so the cat loves pasta, and the parents. No, the two women who are looking after the cat, they go away and forget to tell the boy who's looking after the cat. They forget to tell him that the cat likes pasta. So he gives the cat the cat food, which is called. Sorry about this. Good muse. Anyway, so I sat there making up this story, and then I started thinking, well, how would the cat get hold of pasta? Would he go around to an Italian restaurant? All right. Anyway, I kind of more or less made up this story while I was lying in the geriatric ward. Why did they put me in a geriatric ward? Did they think I was terminal and didn't tell me? I don't know. So incredible. I came out of a coma and they bunged me in a geriatric ward. And I was just around the corner. I could hear them dying around the corner. I could hear. Like that. And one night the male nurse got drunk with one of them and I could hear them going, It's terrible. Anyway, and I came home and I thought, I'm going to see whether my brain's working because it was by no means clear whether my brain was working. And I came home and I wrote a book called Rigatoni the Pastor Cat. And it did. I wrote it and it's come out. It is. It's a book. It's called. And I figured out after it came out that really the book is about me longing for hummus, which Emma cruelly prevented me. No, Emma did try to get. But the chaplain said no. I think he. I don't know, maybe he said that it was not religious enough or something. Or the wrong religion or something. Anyway, Emma tried to explain it to me, but. Haven't understood. But anyway. But anyway, Rigatoni, the pastor cat came out of it. So it's, you know, an ill wind. And as we say.
- [09:51]
C
Yeah, well, whilst we're talking about cats, this might be the perfect spot for a reading because you have, of course, T4TIGs a chapter all about the joys of living with cats. So.
- [09:59]
D
Yes, okay, see if I can manage that. Holding the microphone and the book at the same time. It is, isn't it? Let's see where we go. T for Tiggs. No. L is for little by little. That's different. Okay, so Tiggs was a cat, except he wasn't called Tiggs. I'll explain. Once there was a cat called Mickey. My then 6 year old looked at Mickey and said, does Mickey know she's a cat? I didn't know the answer to that. But I can tell you that he went on to do philosophy at university and got a distinction doing an MA in it. I put that down to Mickey. Mickey died. My stepdaughter took over. She noticed that a tabby cat was on the patio. I said, don't feed it. It'll want to come to stay. So she fed it and the tabby came to stay. And she called it Tigs because it looked like a tiger. I grew to be very fond of Tigs. I liked tabby cats. I agreed with my stepdaughter. It looked like a tiger. He also seemed to be very clever and very affectionate. I remembered the cat that when I was growing up, my parents called it Simpkin. Simpkin is the cat in Beatrix Potter's book, the Tailor of Gloucester. I loved Simpkin. He slept on my bed. Though he did see ghosts. He would see them in the corner of the kitchen, arch his back, hiss at them and then run away. He was a cat who worried about things. One day Simpkin had babies, but she had never objected to being Simpkin. Who's a boy cat, by the way, if you're not keeping up with that. We gave all the kittens away but one. My parents called this one Archie, after the cat in the story Archie and Mehitabel. I read the story and Archie wasn't a cat. Archie was a cockroach. The cat is called Mehitabel. I wondered if Archie minded being named after a cockroach. Nope. He never objected to being Archie the cockroach. All that was long before Tiggs. Back with my stepdaughter one day she made friends with a girl down the road. The friend came over for tea. She saw Tiggs and said, that's Billy. My stepdaughter said it was Tiggs. No, said the friend, billy was my cat. But one day he disappeared. I was ashamed and said nothing. But my stepdaughter was quite proud. Yes, she said, I fed him. My stepdaughter grew up and now has two cats. She said to me that she was going to call one of them Misty. I said, that reminds me of the Clint Eastwood film. Play Misty for me. It doesn't end well. I said, my stepdaughter called the cat Misty. Cats taught my son philosophy and my stepdaughter self will. Back to the time of Tiggs. One day in the time of Tiggs, Billy, remember another cat cat turned up on the patio. I said to my stepdaughter, don't feed it or it'll stay. So she fed it. The children discussed what to call it. They decided that it should be called Smudge, named after the Arsenal striker, Alan Smudger Smith. It didn't look like Smudger for a start. It was a she and it was blue and it had a little moustache. One of the children called it Hitler, but I said that wasn't nice. So he went on calling it Hitler. One day I was invited to a wedding. The groom asked all the guests to line up for a photo. I found myself standing next to the great Arsenal striker several times. Winner of the Golden Boot for the most goals scored in one season, Alan Smudger Smith. As we stood side by side, I said without turning my head towards him, not wanting to spoil the photo, we named our cat after you. Alan Smith has a very deadpan Midlands accent. He said without looking at me, is he nippy? I said, no, she isn't. We went on posing for the photo. He then said, still without looking at me, eyes fixed on the camera. I once heard of someone naming their goldfish after me, but never a cat. I went home and told the family, and they were very proud of both Smudges. One day some other neighbors came over. They looked at Smudge and said, that's Molly. My stepdaughter said, no, that's Smudge. My son said, that's Hitler. The neighbor said that Smudge was their cat and it was Tiggs aunt. I didn't tell Alan Smith about that. My stepdaughter went on feeding Smudge Molly for reasons that wound up with how humans behave rather than cats. Two more cats arrived. Emma explained that these cats were her cats and they were named after two gangsters, Tony Soprano and Benny Blanco. They were two Ginger Toms, brothers and very much in love with each other. They followed each other around the house, licked each other and slept together. I asked Emma why they licked each other. She said, because they're brothers. I said, I don't lick my brother. I never got to the bottom of that, as it were. Then Tiggs died. He chose to die under a stationary car. I was very sad. Smudge died soon after. We figured she was sad that Tiggs had died. It was the most sympathetic thing she'd ever done, as she hadn't been very friendly to Tiggs, even though she was his aunt or Hitler. We moved house with the loving gangsters. When Tony died, Benny went looking for him. Up till then, he had only one kind of meow. Meow. Whenever one cat was outside and the other cat was in, the one inside called to the one outside to come in. Meow. Come in. He'd say, don't hang about out there, Meow. After Tony died, he carried on with that meow. But every now and then he went to the door and did a completely different meow. It was a long, low grumble. It was heartbreaking. Then Benny died. I thought that it was time for a break from cats. Everyone disagreed. I said that we could have a cat, but only if we got a cat flap. That was my bottom line. No cat flap, no cat. Everyone agreed. One day, Emma went off to Brighton with our daughter. She said that they might bring back a cat. I said, no cat flap, no cat. They said, not even one tiny little kitten? I said, okay, then one tiny little kitten. They came back with a box. They opened it up. Inside were two kittens. I said, that's not one cat. That's two cats. They said, one kitten would have been lonely. And we haven't got a cat flap. I said, no. They said, they're black and white. I said, one of them is dozy and the other one is nervous. Let's call the dozy one Shlump, which is Yiddish for a sort of untidy, slack sort of a person. And the nervy one, let's call spilkers, which is Yiddish for nervous. Being nervous. Have butterflies in your stomach. In Yiddish, you have needles in your stomach. You say hob. Spilkers. I've got spilkers. Anyway, they said that they look as if they've got white stripes. So they didn't name them schlump and spilkers. They named them after the people in the band, the White Stripes. Meg and Jack. I said, you'll need to bond with Meg and Jack. It's called imprinting. They said, yes, you should. So I picked them up and stroked them. They now think I'm Mummy. Meg does it in a slumpy way and sits on me whenever she can. And Jack does it nervily as if he's got spilkers. They talk to me. I talk to them. I write the conversations down. They talk at the same time as each other, in unison. So there we are. Let's have A go me. The cats say, we're going to destroy the rug. And I say, please don't. Too late. We're doing it. And I say, but why? And the cats say, we don't like the pattern. And I say, hmm. They say, to create great art, first we must destroy the art of what has come before. And I said, all you're doing is scratching a rug. And the cats say, fool. Oh, there's another one I can read to. Yes. I say to them, why don't you get a job? I say to the cats, they say, why don't you get a job? And I say, I work. And they say, but it's not a job, is it? You just shuffle bits of paper and push us off your computer. That shuffling is creative. Not as creative as us sitting around. Well, what do you create? Vibes. So anyway, there we are. So I have conversations with the cats, and I think my suggestion for the T4 TIGs is. Yeah, have fun. Write about. Have right. Conversations with your pets. Or even acting them out with children, friends or relatives. There we are. So, T for ticks. Thank you. I think Emma might have a slightly different version. She's in the audience. That's right.
- [19:00]
C
Well, we're approaching the Q and A. So you know that.
- [19:02]
D
That Emma could get revenge.
- [19:03]
C
Exactly.
- [19:04]
D
There could be the hummus in the hospital.
- [19:05]
C
Yes.
- [19:06]
D
And the cats. I could be in big trouble here.
- [19:08]
C
Yeah, we're gonna do some fact checking.
- [19:09]
D
Yeah.
- [19:10]
C
But, yes, the Q and A is coming up, so do start thinking of questions. I mean, as we just heard, this book is so full of your characteristic humor. It's such a warm, welcoming book. You really will be laughing, as you have tonight, all the way through it. It made me laugh so much. And yet it tells the story of some of the most difficult times in your life. The death of your son Eddie, your, as I said, near death experience with COVID and the long and arduous recovery from that. So talk to me about why you tell those stories, why you revisit them, why we would hear them in a book about hope and happiness.
- [19:46]
D
Well, I think everybody has troubled times and trouble things and difficult things. And one of the reasons why you might not have a good day is because you dwell on it or you live with it and you struggle with it, and you're unhappy. And obviously, if you're unhappy, you're not happy. And so I kind of thought, well, if I talk about the ways in which I've coped with those things, maybe that might possibly help people. Sparks, not blueprints. And so, yes, I mean, with Eddie, there's all sorts of ways in which I deal with the Eddie thing in my mind. And one story I tell is that just very, very recently I realized that the guy, one of the guys that Eddie always described as his best friend, I'd never been to see and he hadn't been to see me. I call him Greg. And I sat there thinking, why haven't I been to see Greg? I remember just a few weeks before Eddie died, we sat in the pub and just on Upper street there, and I don't think he was at the funeral either. And I remember thinking, well, why was that? So I could remember his name. So I got Googling and found out that he's a big cheese in. What do you call it, with sort of wetlands and wild lands around London. What do you call it? Sort of wild greeny bits. Anyway. Well, you know, Anyway, Wild greeny bits.
- [21:11]
C
I'll go on one of those answers.
- [21:12]
D
Anyway, he's in charge of wild greeny bits. I had no idea that that's what he had become. And so I was able to get in touch with him and he said, yeah, let's meet up. And then we had a whole evening chatting and he told me all sorts of things about Eddie. I had no idea that he had a notebook of jokes that he made up, quite some of them absolutely filthy and disgusting, and that this chap Greg, he'd learnt them off by heart. And so 25 years later, he was going around telling Eddie's jokes and saying, that's Eddie Rosen's joke. And I had no idea that he had lived on with Greg all this time. And he could just tell them to me. I mean, I can't remember them now myself. It's just as well, actually. And I just thought, that's amazing and that's lovely that Eddie had sort of lived on like that. And then there was another thing, is that if anybody here's, you know, lost a child or anybody really, that one of the things that can make you sad is when you remember the times you had together. And I remember thinking, isn't it awful? You know, there are these wonderful times that I had with Eddie and it's making me sad. And then I thought, well, it's a bit weird, isn't it, because you haven't got the moments that you have with your living children. You haven't got them either. I mean, you can maybe talk to them about it. Chances are they'll have forgotten. You know, you go, yeah, you remember that time when you know, you put golden syrup on your head and it dribbled down your nose. And they go, no. There was a woman round my way who used to. Every time I went round to see her, she used to sometimes look after me and my brother. And she'd say, oh, I remember you. You were 2, and you'd run out of the alley and halfway up the road and all you had on was your vest. Everything else open to the weather, and you ran out the road. Do you remember it? And I'd go, no. Wasn't a little memory that I wanted to dwell on, you see. But anyway, so it was a sort of. I mean, it's so obvious. But sometimes the obvious things don't occur to you. I just thought, well, I've no more got the childhoods of my living children than I have of my dead one of Eddie. So why am I infecting these lovely moments with Eddie with the fact that he died? When. When I'm thinking about the childhoods of my living children, I don't do that. And that was like. So I get these breakthrough moments sometimes. And that was. That was a moment when I realized that, you know, it's very easy to stay in a hole with something that you don't necessarily need to if you can set it. And the other thing is. Is setting Eddie. The death of Eddie in change. Everything changes. Emma's. It's Emma's favorite phrase from the ancient Greeks. All is flux. Everything changes. And death is one of the things that change about us and about everything. You know, about dandelions and the tree outside or anything. Everything changes. And so everything is always becoming different. And so something else I've had to teach myself is that Eddie dying is just part of everything around us becoming different. And that took me about. Around about 20 years to get to that one. So these things take a long time before you can put something like. Something as big as Eddie dying sort of thing into a. A place in the universe that you can understand. Yeah.
- [24:41]
C
Well, I loved your daughter's description of you in the book as an optimistic nihilist.
- [24:46]
D
Yes, that's what she came up to me. Just stood. I can see her now at this moment. I was sitting at the table and she stood over me and she said, you're an optimistic nihilist. It's not the thing you expect your daughter to. To say to you, is it? You know, you think of all things that a daughter might say, James, don't necessarily expect that to be one. It might be, you know, can I have a this or, you know, do you want a bit of that? Or something like that, but not. You're an optimistic nihilist. And I knew the meaning of the two words because I went to university, but I didn't know the meaning of the two next to each other. So I said, what's that then? And then she explained to me, well, you're a nihilist because you don't believe in God and you don't believe there's anything supernatural out there, and yet you're optimistic. You think you have to kind of make the most of every day because it's all we've got. All we got is life. And I thought, oh, well, thank goodness we sent her to university, in fact, she decided. So it's a slight exaggeration, but anyway. Yeah, so that was. That was kind of another little mini breakthrough, really, when I suddenly realized that's what I am. I am an optimistic nihilist. It took Elsie to tell me. Yes. And it also leads me into a view of the absurd. So, I mean, there is something absurd about. Here's this globe here. That's what I'm miming. That is the globe. And there's us crawling all over it. And then we're on it. We're on this globe from anything from a day should, tragically, we die a day old, or till we're 100, 110, or however long we live, and then that's it. And I also believe, fundamentally, that it is completely purposeless. There is no purpose to life, not beyond having this life now. So that's part of the optimistic nihilism. That's why we have to get it right and do things right, whether individually, socially, politically, or in terms of the world, because that's all we've got, and we've only got a relatively short time to do it. But ultimately, unlike religious people, I believe there's no purpose beyond it. So that's actually the imperative. It comes from the absurdity. So I see Eddie's death, in a way, as part of that. That's part of the absurdity of our existence. And so that helps. And also, I find, you know that thing when you. I mean, I have to pop pills out of a little silver. You know, like these little pills. You have to pop them out of it. And about three times out of four, I drop one on the floor. Now, in the old days, I used to get quite ratty about that. I used to fucking. And now I just think that is absurd. That is just. That is part of the absurdity of life that when you pop it, it's going to go on the floor and you're never going to find it. You go like that. I sweep the floor with my hand, go like that, and I never find it at all. All I do is get my hand dirty like that. And I always think, God, blimey, it must have dropped. There must be loads of pills down there between the floorboards, like that. I can never find it. And then, I mean, there's various pills I take and I always imagine if the cats took them, if the cats ate them. So I take levothyroxine for my hypothyroidism and you imagine the cat eating one of them and going, the rest of it. Or I have to take finasteride, you see, which shrinks your prostate, if you're a man. And I imagine sort of like the cat, you know, Christ, that's my prostate gone. Blimey. Anyway, yeah, so I just think that's sort of part of the absurdity. So I sort of. Mostly I find that that helps to think of all these minor casualties and strange things that happen to you as part of, well, Elsie's analysis of the optimistic nihilism, to which I add the absurdity principle.
- [28:48]
C
But what a beautiful place to. To wrap up the main part of our interview.
- [28:52]
D
Yeah, well, the cats. There they are.
- [28:54]
C
Yeah, yeah. If anybody knows how a cat's prostate would be affected by.
- [28:58]
D
Yeah, exactly.
- [28:59]
C
Those tablets do feel free.
- [29:00]
D
There's a vet in the audience will explain.
- [29:02]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:08]
A
Hi, everyone. I'm Connor, head of programming at Intelligence Squared. As we head into the festive season, what is for many of us, a time of comfort, celebration and gatherings round a table. Most of us won't think twice about the clean water running from our taps that make it all possible. But for millions of people around the world, this is something they simply don't have. That's why here at the Intelligence Squared podcast, we we're proud to partner with WaterAid, a charity working to change this and to shine a spotlight on something that connects us all. In a special episode of our podcast, journalist Coco Khan speaks to Amica Godfrey, Water AIDS Executive Director of International Programs. Amica has spent more than 25 years working across the world in the water, sanitation and hygiene sector. She shares powerful stories about how clean water keeps children in school, helps mothers support their families or run businesses, and unlocks potential for entire communities. To hear the full conversation, just search Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts and listen to the episode titled Everything Starts With Water, released on 17th December. Listen to the full episode now on the Intelligence Squared podcast. If you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify.
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- [32:21]
D
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- [32:30]
C
Well, as I said, we've got, you know, a good half an hour for a Q and A, so please do try and keep your questions as tight as possible. Should we oh, we had a hand go up and down up there. Okay, we'll go down here.
- [32:41]
D
Hello. Hello. Other than your family, who you've spoken about, your your parents and your grandparents, who has inspired you most through life from a chance meeting or whatever, who have you walked away from and thought, this person has made me think differently about myself and my life? Yeah, well, you've jumped to Zed in Fact. And zed is for Zephaniah. Excellent. That's right, that's one of them. But I cheat and I get two zeds in for the price of one. All right. I had forefathers who sold stuff in markets. Two for the price of one for you three. So, so you've got the Zephaniah. So who's the other Zed Zimmerman. Yes, indeed, that's right. Bob Dylan. So these are. I, I met. I knew Benjamin very well. I was a huge admirer of Benjamin. I just thought he was quite extraordinary, both in public and in private. I used to watch him on Question Time and he was, I just thought, amazing. I keep getting asked to go on Question Time and I always turn it down because I just think, I just bumble. There'd be these sort of rapid fire questions and you'd go, well, it's America, it's across the Atlantic and the President is. What's his name, by the way? I've forgotten, sorry, it's Trump. Trump, Trump, Trump. He's Trump, he's trumping. And I just absolutely screw it up. So I've always turned it down. I just couldn't take the nerves of it. And Benjamin, he just sits there, I mean, sat there because tragically he's gone from us, he's died. And he just used to have this gentle smile on his face and just talk, you see, and it cut right the way through all this sort of political stuff. And as I said to him, how do you do it? I said. He said, well, I just think I'm talking to my mum. I said, really? He said, yeah, I just think there's a question. I would want to have that conversation with my mum. And so that's what I'm taught. I just say what I think to my mum. I don't take any notice of the fact that sitting there is Prime Minister or whoever it is. I don't take any notice of that. I just talk to my mum. I just thought that was just so brilliant that he. And it's why he could make things so that he sounded like he was talking in proverbs quite often. And I absolutely loved that. And also I once said to him, I was interviewing him on the radio and as, as you'll know El very well, you've got this voice in your ear going, ask him this, ask him that. And you're going, sorry, what? Sorry, no, I mustn't say sorry, no. What about sorry, no, yeah, sorry. And the producer said to my, ask him where he writes his poems. And I thought, well, what's the point of doing that? Because all they ever say is things like, well, people say, where do you write your poems? And I just say, everywhere. Cause I do. And I thought it's gonna be a meaningless question. So I said, where do you write your poems, Benjamin? And then he said, I don't write them. So, thanks, Benjamin. That's one of those moments on a live thing where you just, you know, you feel that redness just coming up your neck that. Where are you gonna. I don't write them. You've got a ghost writer. This is the first I've heard. I thought you wrote all your poems, Benjamin. You know, so where am I going with this? I don't want to insult him. I said, you don't write them? He said, no, I make them up in my head when I go for a run. Do you? He said, yeah. And then when I get to the end of the run, you see, I know it off by heart. Oh, yeah. And he said, and another thing, he said that when you perform the poem, it's like, it's in a shape that the audience can, like, join in, or they kind of know, and then they can perform it back to you. I said, oh, really? Anyway, now jump forward a few years. And I'm by the River Thames with a group of children, and we're underneath the railway bridge, underneath the Hungerford railway bridge. And I don't know if, you know, there's a rule, I think it's in the Bible, that if 30 children stand under a railway bridge and a train goes over, they all go, anyway. And I said, that's really interesting, guys, but if you come over here, I was being creative. I said, if you put your hand on the bridge, just here on the wall, holding up the bridge, you can actually feel the rhythm. You can feel the train. You can feel the rhythm of the train. And as I said that, I kind of thought, oh, that sounds almost like a beginning of a poem, a feel the rhythm of the train, something like that. And then as I thought, that conversation that I'd had with Benjamin came into my head. You could make up a poem in your head. And so I thought, well, I won't actually go for a run. That surprises you. So instead, I got on the Underground, and on the Underground, I sat there trying to make up a poem that had something to do with feeling the rhythm of the train, you see. So I'm sitting there going, feel the rhythm. The train. And then you could say down there. And then it. I don't know what that looked like if you're sitting opposite a bloke going, anyway, by the time I got to the end of the journey, I got to the end of the journey, I had a poem, it was in my head and the poem went like this. Hands on the bridge Feel the rhythm of the train Hands on the window Feel the rhythm of the rain Hands on your throat Feel the rhythm of your talk Hands on your leg Feel the rhythm of your walk Hands in the sea Feel the rhythm of the tide Hands on your heart Feel the rhythm inside Hands on. What comes next? Hands, Hands on your heart Feel the rhythm inside. Anyway, something else happens. Anyway, so I made up the poem and I. Now, when I go into schools, if I remember it. Yeah, Something rhymes with life. What rhymes with life? Wife strife. Something rhymes with life. Wife Hands on. Yeah. Filled the rhythm of life. It's the last bit. Can't remember shame, isn't it? That's. Yeah. Anyway, so unlike Benjamin. Yeah. Something runs with life. Yeah. Ems, what's that one? Go. Life. Hands on your heart Feel the rhythm inside. Anyway, I'll find out when I go. Oh, I know it's in the book. It is. Somewhere.
- [39:10]
C
And if you purchase one.
- [39:11]
D
Yeah, that's right. When we're out there, you can tell me how the poem finishes. Yeah, that's right. So, anyway, Benjamin. And then dear old Dylan, dear old Robert Zimmerman. Well, I'll just tell you a little story. When I was at University, Highway 61 Revisited came out, and upstairs was Don. Don McIntyre, who later went on to become deputy editor of the Independent. But at the time, he was just listening about 24 hours a day to Highway 61 Revisited. He'd play one side, then he'd turn it over and play the other side. It was getting quite worn, so he'd just turn it over and play it. And I remember this sound of Desolation Row. And Tom thumbs. Tom thumbs just like Tom thumbs blues, going over and over. And I'd go and listen to it and I think, why is this quite extraordinary? But I couldn't think what it was. I quite like music. I talk about this under V for Van Morrison. Keep up and that. There's some music that you kind of. You can't find words for it. And of course, it might be orchestra music, it might be folk music, might be any kind that there's a certain kind of thing that you can't quite touch. In fact, Van has got a phrase for it, the inarticulate speech of the heart, quite like that. And I found that was about the Dylan side. Dylan music as well. And then there's great long gap when I sort of was without that Dylan, that Highway 61 revisited. And then I rediscovered it about four years ago, five years ago. And I've spent many a happy hour just playing it over and over again. Just like Don upstairs in his. In the. In our student digs. And he was upstairs, you know about Easter. It's raining.
- [40:57]
B
It.
- [40:57]
D
Just because it's Easter. Raining at Easter. Yep. Zimmerman and Zephaniah. What rhymes with life? No, it's not wife, it's not strife. Yeah, that's the last line. The rhythm of life. See if you can find it.
- [41:18]
A
Hell.
- [41:21]
D
Oh, it's time, not life, isn't it? Hands on the rhythm Feel the rhythm of the rhyme Hands on your life Feel the rhythm of time okay, we're gonna do the poem again and you're gonna join in. Okay, here we go. So it goes.
- [41:33]
C
Prepare yourselves.
- [41:34]
D
What do we start? Hands on the bridge Feel the rhythm of the train Hands on the window Feel the rhythm of the rain Hands on your throat Feel the rhythm of your talk Hands on your leg Feel the rhythm of your walk Hands in the sea Feel the rhythm of the tide Hands on your heart Feel the rhythm inside Hands on the rhythm Feel the rhythm of the rhyme Hands on your life Feel the rhythm of time and now, when I do that in schools, when I do that poem in schools, I do it as a tribute to Benjamin. So it's lovely. Benjamin can live on through me, so I always say. That's for Benjamin. Zephaniah and the children nearly always know his poem about be nice to your turkeys at Christmas. And there's a lovely connection that I've got with Benjamin. So there we are. So that's Zed. So he's the inspirer amongst many others and his dear old Robert Zimmerman. Yes. Thank you very much.
- [42:32]
C
Well, an enormous thank you so much. Thank you to you, our wonderful audience. Those are fantastic questions. We did get through as many as we could, and they were really thoughtful. So thank you so much. And of course, an enormous thank you to Michael. Let's have a big round of applause. And Michael. Michael will be in the foyer afterwards signing copies of Good Days. And as I said, I cannot tell you what a wonderful read it is. I can tell you it is absolutely what you need right now in your life. So please do pick up a copy and get it signed. And thank you for. Thank you to Intelligence School Squared for staging this event. Thank you so much and good evening.
- [43:08]
D
And thank you, Elle. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
- [43:17]
B
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Ginny Hooker and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings, become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership and to join us at future live events, just head over to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full events program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.
- [44:00]
D
And Doug, here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. Been out here all morning. Not a single bite. Guess the fish finally figured it out.
- [44:37]
A
Just like hackers do when Cisco Duo's on guard with Duo's end to end.
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D
Fishing resistance, every login, every device, every user stays protected. No hooks, no catches, no bites. Cisco Duo fishing season is over. Learn more@duo.com hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. One of the perks about having four kids that you know about is is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch upfront payment.
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B
Of $45 per three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes. If network's busy, taxes and fees extra.
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D
See mintmobile.com quick choose a meal deal with McValue. The $5 McChicken meal deal, the $6 McDouble meal deal or the new seven dollar Daily Double Me small fries drink and Four Piece McNuggets. There's actually no rush. I'm just excited for McDonald's for a limited time only. President participation may vary. Not Valder McDelivery.