Podcast Summary

Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Episode: Michael Rosen on Hope, Happiness and Finding Joy in the Small Things (Part Two)
Date: December 26, 2025
Host: Elle Osili-Wood (Moderator/Interviewer), Michael Rosen (Guest)
Recording: Live at the Shaw Theatre, London

Overview

In this warm, lively, and deeply touching conversation—part two of a live event—celebrated poet, author, and broadcaster Michael Rosen reflects on recovering from trauma, dealing with loss, and discovering joy in everyday moments. Speaking with presenter Elle Osili-Wood, Rosen shares personal stories from his life, explores philosophies of optimism and acceptance, reads from his book, and takes questions from the audience, all with his trademark humor and candor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Balance of the Ideal Versus "Good Enough"

• Rosen’s Philosophy via Hummus (02:34–09:51):
  Rosen illustrates the tension between perfection and acceptance using hummus as a metaphor.

  • Describes his ideal hummus, but recognizes that the hummus he can actually have is “good enough.”
  • Reflects on striving for perfection in life leading to disappointment, and suggests learning to value what is present.
  • Tells a humorous hospital tale involving longing for hummus and being subjected instead to a nutrition drink ("Ensure") with dubious appeal.
  • Out of frustration (and time spent in the geriatric ward after his coma), he created the children’s book "Rigatoni the Pasta Cat," symbolizing turning adversity into creativity.

  Notable Quote:

  “…if you only ever yearn for the best, you will only be happy maybe about three times in your life because you’ll never get it. So it’s learning how to accept that what you’ve got may well be good enough because you’ve got it.”
  — Michael Rosen (08:12)

2. The Joys of Living with Cats – Reading and Reflections

• Reading from T for Tiggs (09:59–18:59):
  Rosen shares stories about his family’s parade of cats, each with their own quirks, identities, and comic mishaps—woven with reflections on memory, family bonds, and grief.

  • The story discusses how pets teach us about philosophy, self-will, and accepting life’s unpredictability.
  • Playful banter with his cats leads to observations about creating joy in small rituals and daily interactions.
  • Encourages listeners to “write conversations with your pets,” highlighting the therapeutic and imaginative possibilities of everyday creativity.

  Notable Moment:
  Rosen and Osili-Wood joke about fact-checking his stories, with Emma (Rosen’s wife) in the audience potentially offering her side:

  “I could be in big trouble here.”
  — Michael Rosen (19:05)

3. Humor and Grief – Reconciling Hope and Pain

• Addressing Trauma (19:09–24:40):
  Rosen reflects on why he revisits stories of hardship—like the death of his son Eddie and his near-fatal COVID illness—in books about joy:

  • He explains the importance of talking about grief so others might find ‘sparks’ to better cope, not blueprints.
  • Shares a story of reconnecting with Eddie’s old friend Greg, discovering Eddie’s “notebook of jokes” had lived on via retelling, which both moved and comforted him.
  • Discusses the paradox of memories feeling painful, and how, after years, he realized he doesn't grieve similarly for memories of his living children—illuminating how we can “set” the pain in a different mental place.

  Notable Quote:

  “Everything changes. And death is one of the things that change about us and about everything…so something else I’ve had to teach myself is that Eddie dying is just part of everything around us becoming different. And that took me around about 20 years to get to that one.”
  — Michael Rosen (23:33)

4. “Optimistic Nihilism” and the Absurdity of Life

• On Embracing Absurdity (24:40–28:48):
  Rosen’s daughter characterized him as an “optimistic nihilist”—someone who doesn’t believe in a cosmic purpose but seeks joy and meaning nonetheless.

  • He explains that, for him, the absence of cosmic purpose empowers us to create meaning within our limited span.
  • Shares laughter over everyday absurdities (like endlessly dropping pills on the floor), imagining the consequences if his cats found his medication.
  • Concludes that recognizing life’s absurdities can lighten the weight of existential burdens, turning frustrations into comedy.

  Notable Exchange:

  “You’re an optimistic nihilist.”
  — Rosen’s daughter (24:45)
  “I am an optimistic nihilist. It took Elsie to tell me!”
  — Michael Rosen (25:16)

Audience Q&A Highlights

5. Who Has Inspired You Most (Non-Family)? (32:41–42:31)

• Benjamin Zephaniah (Zed) and Bob Dylan (Zimmerman)

  • Rosen is deeply inspired by poet Benjamin Zephaniah for his wisdom, calm public presence, and unique creative process:

    “He just sits there … and he just used to have this gentle smile on his face and just talk … He said, ‘I just think I’m talking to my mum.’ … He could make things so that he sounded like he was talking in proverbs.” (34:06)

  • Zephaniah composed his poems while running, memorizing them, and making them interactive for audiences.
  • Rosen wrote a poem inspired by Zephaniah (see below).
  • Bob Dylan: Rosen recalls the impact of “Highway 61 Revisited” in his student days and the “inarticulate speech of the heart” in music that transcends words.

  Shared Poem Tribute (41:33):

  Hands on the bridge, feel the rhythm of the train
  Hands on the window, feel the rhythm of the rain
  Hands on your throat, feel the rhythm of your talk
  Hands on your leg, feel the rhythm of your walk
  Hands in the sea, feel the rhythm of the tide
  Hands on your heart, feel the rhythm inside
  Hands on the rhythm, feel the rhythm of the rhyme
  Hands on your life, feel the rhythm of time
  — Michael Rosen, as a tribute to Benjamin Zephaniah

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Accepting “Good Enough”:

  “…if you only ever yearn for the best, you will only be happy maybe about three times in your life because you’ll never get it. So it’s learning how to accept that what you’ve got may well be good enough because you’ve got it.”
  (08:12, Michael Rosen)

• On Hopeful Nihilism:

  “You’re an optimistic nihilist.”
  (24:45, Rosen’s daughter)
  “…I am an optimistic nihilist. It took Elsie to tell me!”
  (25:16, Michael Rosen)

• On Grief and Memory:

  “Why am I infecting these lovely moments with Eddie with the fact that he died? … I’ve no more got the childhoods of my living children than I have of my dead one of Eddie.”
  (23:11, Michael Rosen)

• On Zephaniah’s Influence:

  “He said, ‘I just think I’m talking to my mum.’ … He could make things so that he sounded like he was talking in proverbs.”
  (34:06, Michael Rosen)

• Playful Banter:

  “We’re going to do some fact checking.”
  (19:08, Elle Osili-Wood)

  “No cat flap, no cat!”
  (14:48, Michael Rosen, recapping cat adoption negotiations)

Suggested Actionable or Uplifting Takeaways

• Accepting “good enough” can be a healthy, liberating philosophy.
• Small rituals and moments with family, pets, or creativity offer wells of joy, even in hardship.
• Humor and absurdity are tools for resilience and a lighter perspective on life’s challenges.
• The stories and jokes of loved ones live on in surprising, beautiful ways if we seek connection.
• Sharing stories of loss can offer “sparks” of support for others—not exact solutions, but hope.

Structure & Flow

The episode flowed from a philosophical anecdote (hummus as a metaphor for life), into a gentle, humorous reading about family pets, then into a more serious—yet still gently comic—discussion of grief, before opening to reflections on meaning, absurdity, artistic influence, and audience participation. Throughout, Rosen's wit, honesty, and warmth created a sense of community and hope.

For Listeners: What Next?

• Michael Rosen’s book (referenced throughout as "Good Days") is recommended by the host as a source of comfort, laughter, and insight—especially for difficult times.
• Connect further with Rosen’s work, or revisit Benjamin Zephaniah’s poetry.
• Try writing conversations with your own pets or infusing absurdity with humor, as Rosen suggests.
• “Feel the rhythm of time”—hold both the joy and the flux of life with an open, hopeful, accepting heart.

For further insights and full context, listening to the episode is highly recommended, especially for Rosen’s delivery, improvisations, and the warmth of the live audience interaction.