Podcast Summary

Olivia Laing on Passion and Heartbreak in the Golden Age of New Italian Cinema

Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Host: Maitha Lee Rao (Producer: Mia Sorrenti)
Guest: Olivia Laing
Date: November 7, 2025
Episode focus: A conversation with Olivia Laing about her new novel, The Silver Book—a queer love story and noirish thriller set amid the charged world of 1970s Italian cinema, drawing on the making of Fellini’s Casanova and Pasolini’s Salo. Laing discusses the relationship between artifice and truth, the impact of political upheaval, queer identity, and the vibrancy of hand-crafted cinema.

Overview of the Episode’s Main Theme

This episode explores Olivia Laing's The Silver Book, which uses the backdrop of iconic 1970s Italian cinema to examine queer love, artistic labor, and political resistance. Laing and host Maitha Lee Rao dive into how creativity, identity, and community intersect against a setting of both artistic opulence and societal turbulence, drawing parallels between then and now.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Cinematic World of 1970s Italy

• Laing situates her novel specifically in "Italian cinema in the mid-1970s" (03:37), focusing on the films Fellini’s Casanova and Pasolini’s Salo.
  • Laing was inspired by the "handmade, very scrappy, very immediate world" of film creation before the digital and AI era.
  • She draws contemporary parallels: "We're entering a realm of creativity in the 21st century that's about AI...I really felt very drawn to this world that was very much about the handmade." (03:37)

Artistry, Labor, and Queer Identity

• The novel’s central characters are mostly men whose "queerness is foundational to how they do their work." (03:00)
• The tension between being "laborers in the dream factory" and societal perceptions of perversion is a prominent motif.
• Laing emphasizes the “cultures of resistance” created by queer communities, focusing on “how powerful they can be, but also how fragile they can be.” (10:59)

Salo – Pasolini’s Shock to the System

• Laing contextualizes Salo as "the most powerful invitation ever made to think that you must resist when fascism comes to war" (06:37).
  • She discusses its "anguish, moral intent," exploring themes of compliance and complicity as much as overt brutality.
  • "It's beyond the outer limits of any horror film ever made..." (05:41)

The Allure of the Workspace and Intimacy

• The novel zooms in on the intimacy between set designer Danilo Donati and his apprentice Nicholas, making their private lives "the stars of the story" (08:45).
  • Laing describes Nicholas as an “eyes into that world,” allowing readers to experience the film set as an outsider might. (09:49)
  • "This coup de foudre happening between them, this sort of attack of love that would pull them into each other's lives..." (10:38)
  • Nicholas represents a certain haplessness and naivety, resonating with many readers: "They kept coming back going, 'I'm Nicholas. Or I was Nicholas.'" (12:11)

Political Backdrop and Parallels to Today

• The story is embedded in Italy’s Anni di Piombo ("Years of Lead"), a violent, tumultuous era marked by terrorism and far-right/far-left polarization (13:40).
  • Pasolini’s warnings about the resurgence of fascism echo contemporary anxieties.
  • "He’s the person that really foresaw that fascism and the far right would return to power..." (15:10)
• Art, resistance, and the dangers of complicity are recurring themes, resonating with present-day sociopolitical climates.

Contrasting Filmmakers – Fellini & Pasolini

• Laing relishes writing Fellini as a "huge diva...very theatrical, very, you know, 'Why am I trapped in this prison of my own making?'" (17:22)
  • Fellini is contrasted with Pasolini—focused, urgent, yet gentle on set.
  • Both men are united by shared histories of growing up under fascism, though their personalities and working methods differ.

Danilo Donati – Heart of the Book and Artistry

• Donati is presented as "almost like the moral center of this book" (19:21), emblematizing "work as refuge, artistic creation as refuge, communal creation as refuge."
  • Unlike the "great individualist" auteur, Donati "takes delight in working with others."
  • His visionary approach to costume design and his role as a collaborator are celebrated.

The Loss of the Handmade in Artistic Creation

• Both Laing and Rao lament the decline of tactile, communal filmmaking in the age of AI and digital set creation.
  • "It’s a love letter about the handmade, the cinema of scissors and glue...” (21:36)
  • Laing stresses that these crafts "are only lost if people decide that they don't want to do them anymore." (21:36)

Writing Process and Laing’s Body of Work

• Laing describes writing The Silver Book as a "very strange experience...it was like surfing a fabulous wave" (23:09)—in marked contrast to her slower, research-intensive nonfiction.
• Each of her books is connected by questions that lead to the next, with a recurring focus: "They have all been thinking about fascism and resistance and the role of art in that." (24:46)

The Lasting Impact of Research and Storytelling

• The process transformed Laing’s film viewing: “It's added a great layer of excitement...to have this sort of backstory in my mind of how it was made and who was making it...” (26:16)
• She hints at future projects, possibly a prequel set in 1970s London and another installment in her ongoing "Crudo project." (27:35)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the importance of resisting fascism:

  "I think that’s because it’s not just about disgusting things happening. It has this sort of anguish, moral intent, which is really to examine through a very clear lens the spirit of fascism, the desire of fascism to destroy, to take control over the bodies of others."
  — Olivia Laing (05:41)

• On creating a world of artistry and queerness:

  "This coup de feu happening between them, this sort of attack of love that would pull them into each other's lives and bring chaos in its wake."
  — Olivia Laing (10:38)

• On the evolution of Nicholas’s character:

  "He became somebody that I felt very tender towards...I think it’s about being caught up inside difficult times."
  — Olivia Laing (12:20)

• On the tension between art and politics:

  "The warnings that he [Pasolini] was making are something that we need to heed...He is warning about the lethal danger of compliance and complicity."
  — Olivia Laing (15:45)

• On Donati's artistry and its communal nature:

  "He’s not the auteur who’s sort of separate—the great individualist. He really is working in a workshop, he’s collaborating."
  — Olivia Laing (19:21)

• On the handmade aspect of cinema:

  "It's a love letter about the handmade, the cinema of scissors and glue that Fellini talks about."
  — Olivia Laing (21:36)

• On how writing The Silver Book compared to her nonfiction:

  "It was like surfing a fabulous wave. And now I'm in deep mourning that it’s over and it will never come back."
  — Olivia Laing (23:09)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 03:37 | Laing on the appeal of 1970s Italian cinema as a handmade, tactile world. | | 04:54 | The shocking intent and historical framing of Salo. | | 08:45 | Focus on the intimate, everyday moments between Danilo and Nicholas. | | 09:49 | How Nicholas became the reader’s guide and his character’s evolution. | | 13:40 | Setting the story amid Italy's violent Anni di Piombo and Pasolini’s political activism. | | 15:45 | Art, resistance, complicity, and the contemporary resonance of Pasolini’s story. | | 17:22 | Characterizing Fellini and his volatile relationship with Donati; contrast with Pasolini. | | 19:21 | Donati’s artistry, morality, and celebration of communal creation. | | 21:36 | Loss of artisanal cinema in the AI era and Laing’s call for the handmade. | | 23:09 | Writing process for The Silver Book—“like surfing a fabulous wave.” | | 24:46 | The political thread uniting all of Laing’s books. | | 26:16 | How writing the book changed Laing’s perception of films from the era. | | 27:35 | Laing's plans for future projects. |

Episode at a Glance

• Vivid, personal narratives intersect with sweeping social and political history.
• The allure and heartbreak of 1970s Italian cinema provides both nostalgia and warning for current times.
• The Silver Book and this conversation celebrate "the handmade," communal art, queer love, political courage, and the ongoing fight against compliance in the face of authoritarianism.

For fans of cinema, queer history, political fiction, and the mechanics of creativity, this episode offers an insightful, richly textured exploration of art’s power—and the costs and courage it demands.