Podcast Summary: Intelligence Squared

Episode: Putin, The Soviet Union and The Rise of Russian Imperialism, with Mikhail Zygar (Part One)

Date: December 14, 2025
Host: Clarissa Ward (CNN), Producer Mia Sorrenti
Guest: Mikhail Zygar

Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode of Intelligence Squared features exiled Russian journalist and author Mikhail Zygar discussing the enduring legacy of the Soviet Union’s collapse, the roots of Russian imperialism, and how historical misinterpretations shaped today’s Russia. Drawing on his latest work, The Dark Side of the Earth, Zygar offers a deeply human and revisionist look at the USSR's end—challenging prevailing Western narratives and illuminating the personal stories that drove history. The conversation, led by Clarissa Ward, also highlights the importance of narrative complexity in understanding Russia beyond typical black-and-white lenses.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Retell the Collapse of the Soviet Union?

• Historical Misconceptions
  • Zygar challenges the Western triumphalist view that the collapse signaled the end of history, Cold War, and Soviet ideology.
  • He argues we overlooked key Soviet conservative actors whose influence persists in Russian politics today (07:28–11:14):

    "We used to think that Soviet Union bloodlessly collapsed. But if it is so, what is happening right now in Ukraine? Isn't this still the Soviet Union collapsing?” — Mikhail Zygar (08:44)

  • Zygar suggests the official narrative was merely the end of "season one", and modern Russia is "season five" of the same unresolved story.

2. The Coup of August 1991—A Human Story

• Personal Motivations Over Grand Schemes
  • Zygar focuses on the overlooked role of small, personal details in historical events:

    “Sometimes stupidity explains everything, or personal motivation, or love and sex and food.” — Mikhail Zygar (13:21)

  • He recounts a poignant story: the wife of Minister of Defense, Emma Yazova, whose emotional pleas led her husband to withdraw army support from the coup, arguably ending it (13:54–16:46).

3. The Flawed Lens of Triumph and Good vs. Evil

• Complexity Over Manichaeism
  • Ward and Zygar discuss the West’s simplistic lens: democracy achieved by inherently “good” actors.
  • Zygar highlights how the USSR’s fall was less a victory for freedom than a symptom of institutional decay and loss of legitimacy (11:14–12:54).
  • Suggests the stereotype of "Western conspiracy" remains prevalent in Russia and parts of the global south.

4. The Importance of Everyday People

• Soviet People vs. Soviet System
  • Zygar’s Russian subtitle for his book: "The Story of How Soviet People Defeated the Soviet Union."
  • He underscores the disenchantment of the populace with the Soviet system and the critical role of belief and social desire for change (13:06–16:46).

5. Narrative Methods and Character Selection

• Interview-Based Histories
  • Zygar interviewed over 200 figures, from politicians in former Soviet republics to musicians, to reconstruct a textured history.
  • He identifies the need for cultural nuance, e.g., explaining differences in Gorbachev’s public persona between languages (18:32–20:48):

    “Gorbachev speaking in Russian doesn’t sound like Gorbachev speaking via interpreter in English... his Russian is very awkward and dry.” — Mikhail Zygar (20:02)

6. Gorbachev—Neither Hero nor Traitor

• Humanized Legacy
  • Zygar avoids the binary of Western hero vs. Russian traitor, sharing personal anecdotes to illustrate Gorbachev’s complexity and motivations (24:25–25:08):

    “[Raisa] was really the only love of his life. And really, a lot of things he did... he had always known that she wouldn’t go to bed with him if his arms would be covered with blood.” — Mikhail Zygar (23:55)

7. Parallels to Modern Politics

• From Superpower Decline to “Make X Great Again”
  • He draws analogies between the Soviet and American populist cycles, stating the story is about an old elite, a young reformer (Gorbachev), and a populist, aggressive challenger (Yeltsin)—echoes of today’s right-wing movements (25:09–26:42).

8. Audience Considerations and Book Structure

• Differing Narratives for Different Audiences
  • Zygar wrote different versions of his book for Russian and Western readers, arguing that even young Russians need context on post-Soviet history (29:43–33:08).
  • He insists on anti-imperialist lessons and the necessity to present non-Moscow-centric perspectives.

9. The Role of Alcohol and Despair

• Cultural Impact
  • Recounts personal and societal consequences of alcoholism in the late Soviet period, describing it as both a symptom and perpetuator of societal malaise (33:08–36:55):

    “Vodka drinking has become the only solution... They were drinking because they were desperate, and he [Gorbachev] was not doing anything with their despair.” — Mikhail Zygar (36:49)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 08:44 | Mikhail Zygar | "Isn't this still the Soviet Union collapsing and Soviet generation of people who are running Russia right now trying to keep that Soviet mentality and to suppress post Soviet generation trying to impose their Soviet narrative?" | | 13:21 | Mikhail Zygar | "Sometimes stupidity explains everything, or personal motivation, or love and sex and food." | | 16:24 | Mikhail Zygar | (On the coup) “She started crying and started demanding him to quit... She kept demanding for three days till the moment when the first three men were killed accidentally in Moscow. And that was the final straw.” | | 20:02 | Mikhail Zygar | "Gorbachev speaking in Russian doesn't sound like Gorbachev speaking via interpreter in English because he sounds like the perfect intellectual and the visionary... If he's translated to English, his Russian is very awkward and dry." | | 23:55 | Mikhail Zygar | "She [Raisa] was really the only love of his life... he has always known that she wouldn't go to bed with him if his arms would be covered with blood. So he could not afford any violence because of her..." | | 25:09 | Mikhail Zygar | "This is the story of a superpower on decline... probably it could be a story about America today because we see a lot of very far right movements and 'make Soviet Union great again,' as the, obviously, the slogan of so many politicians in this book." | | 36:49 | Mikhail Zygar | "Vodka drinking has become the only solution... They were drinking because they were desperate, and he [Gorbachev] was not doing anything with their despair." |

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:57 — Introduction to Mikhail Zygar; context of his exile and new book.
• 07:28 — Discussion begins on why the Soviet collapse must be retold.
• 13:06–16:46 — Personal and emotional stories from the August 1991 coup.
• 18:32–20:48 — On interviewing process and cultural translation, especially re: Gorbachev.
• 24:25–26:42 — Gorbachev’s complex legacy and parallels between Soviet and modern populism.
• 33:08–36:55 — Discussion of alcohol, despair, and personal family narratives in Soviet society.

Style, Language, and Tone

• Zygar employs a mix of biting humor, relatable storytelling, and historical rigor. He humanizes key figures with anecdotes and avoids simplistic moral binaries.
• Ward steers the conversation with warmth, curiosity, and respect, encouraging deeper explorations and making space for nuance.
• The overall tone is reflective, candid, and intimate, fitting both the personal stories and the broad historical questions discussed.

Conclusion

This episode reframes the collapse of the USSR not as a clean break from the past but as an unfinished event whose consequences—manifested in Putin’s Russia and the invasion of Ukraine—continue to echo. Zygar’s approach urges listeners to reject simple narratives in favor of messy, contradictory, and deeply personal histories. By drawing connections to global populism and re-examining the human motives buried beneath official sagas, the conversation offers rare insight into why Russia is where it is today—and what the world can learn from it.