Intelligence Squared Podcast Summary

Episode: “Putin, The Soviet Union and The Rise of Russian Imperialism, with Mikhail Zygar (Part Two)”

Date: December 15, 2025
Host: Clarissa Ward (CNN Chief International Correspondent)
Guest: Mikhail Zygar (Russian journalist, author, and dissident)

Episode Overview

This episode is Part Two of a live Intelligence Squared event featuring Russian journalist and dissident Mikhail Zygar in conversation with Clarissa Ward. The discussion focuses on the aftermath of the Soviet Union’s collapse and the roots of Russia’s persistent cynicism, the impact of these forces on the rise and entrenchment of Vladimir Putin, and the bleak and uncertain prospects for Russian democracy and civil society today. The conversation also addresses the generational divide within Russian society, the manipulation of history and ideology, the consequences for opposition figures, and the way both internal and external forces contribute to Russia’s isolation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Soviet Collapse, Gaslighting, and the Birth of Russian Cynicism

• Personal Recollections of Transition: Zygar reminisces about returning to school in September 1991 after the collapse of communism, where Soviet rituals were suddenly erased, and teachers “acted as if the pioneer organization had never existed” ([04:34]).
• Gaslighting of a Generation: The abrupt ideological U-turn from atheism to suddenly being told to “believe in God now” was, in Zygar’s words, “peak Soviet absurdity” and left many feeling gaslit ([05:10]).
• Cynicism as Core Russian Value: Zygar contends that “cynicism is probably the most important word in my book,” arguing it’s the defining feature of post-Soviet Russia ([06:31]):

  "That’s everything we should know about the Soviet generation, about Putin’s generation. They know that they should not believe in anything, because if you believe in anything, you’re going to be cheated, you’re going to be hurt." — Mikhail Zygar ([06:31])

• Materialism vs. Ideology: Under both Soviet and post-Soviet systems, the real motivator for individuals shifted from ideology to material gain—cigarettes and liquor in the past, “real money” today ([10:21]).

2. Putin as the Emblem of Russian Cynicism

• Putin’s Lack of Ideology: Zygar asserts that Putin “doesn’t really believe in anything,” instead embodying the habitual cynicism of his generation ([12:05]):

  "It’s very artificial. He doesn’t really believe in anything." — Mikhail Zygar ([12:05])

• Orthodox Church as Failing State Ideology: Both in Soviet times and now, attempts to use the Orthodox Church to infuse ideology have largely failed; Russia remains largely non-religious, with “less than 1% in Russia go to church on Sunday” ([12:05]).
• Self-Censorship and Fear: Zygar draws parallels to other countries, but says that in Russia the threat of losing hard-won material comforts breeds self-censorship and compliance:

  “Fear of losing everything, fear of losing your salary, fear of losing your way of life is something that can paralyze any human being.” — Mikhail Zygar ([15:37])

• The Hostage Metaphor: He likens Russian society to passengers on a hijacked airplane: “all those people who were trying to stand up and fight were shot... important for the rest, there are hot meals and champagne and they’re still being served... sometimes they can have an upgrade if they behave” ([15:52]).

3. Truth, Disinformation, and the Impact of Navalny’s Death

• Overload of Narratives: Clarissa Ward reflects on the state’s strategy to flood the zone with competing disinformation around Alexei Navalny’s poisoning—leading to a collapse in the perception of truth ([16:29]):

  “It was like, he was a drug addict, he slipped into a coma, he had something wrong with his adrenals, his kidney exploded... the effect of that was more psychologically devastating than doubling down on one counter narrative.” — Clarissa Ward ([16:29])

• Erosion of Truth Itself: This produces dangerous apathy: “Could have been anyone, could have been anything, I guess we’ll never know. I guess there’s no such thing as truth, basically.” — Clarissa Ward ([16:29])

4. Generational Divide and Social Change in Russia

• Striking Social Split: Zygar cites a poll (Levada Center, 2021) revealing older generations favoring violence against LGBTQ people, while younger, post-Soviet generations overwhelmingly support equal rights ([18:18]):

  "How different are the Soviet and post-Soviet generations?”

• Putin’s Need for Sovietization: The war in Ukraine, Zygar suggests, is partly motivated by a need to re-Sovietize the youth and maintain control:

  “He wants to bring Soviet Union back to the minds of that younger generation... He can rule Soviet-minded people. He cannot rule all those open-minded people. So he needs to intimidate them. He needs the war to make them leave.” — Mikhail Zygar ([20:01])

5. Prospects for the Future after Navalny

• Navalny as an Anti-Cynical Hero: Zygar and Ward discuss the unique power of Navalny’s optimism as an antidote to Russian cynicism; his rejection of the idea that “Russia is exceptional” and insistence that “Russia can be and should be democratic” ([25:21]):

  "Navalny was very unusual hero because he was not cynical at all. He was idealist... He gave his life for one very clear idea, that Russia can be democratic country. Russia is no different." — Mikhail Zygar ([25:21])

• Emotional Impact of Navalny’s Death: Many in exile felt his death was the “worst moment for many people” ([25:21]). Comparing Navalny to “Harry Potter,” Zygar notes, “the moment when Navalny died, that was like: no, no, Harry Potter cannot die. That’s the wrong ending of that story.” ([25:21])

6. Russia’s Escalating Isolation—External and Internal

• Loss of Western Connection: A question from the audience raises the issue of how young, internationally minded Russians are leaving, and Russians are cut off from Western culture and literature ([30:12]).
• Anti-Western Propaganda Finds Traction: Zygar observes that, while Russians do not buy most propaganda, anti-Western messaging is effective. Disillusionment with the West is increasing because many pro-Western Russians felt abandoned after 2022, often forced to return home amid bank account closures or travel bans ([31:00]).

  “Everyone lost their dream. And everyone, including me, including everyone who left Russia, but all those people who stayed there, they lost their vision of the future. The future was over on... March 2022.” — Mikhail Zygar ([31:00])

• The End of Western Romanticism: There is no longer “romanticism about the West” among Russians—what remains is cynicism and increasing isolation, which “makes Putin happy.” This is a “mutual effort from the west and of Russian propaganda” ([33:56]).

7. Publishing Under Repression

• Smuggling Ideas: Zygar shares hopes to publish his book in Russia despite being a convicted criminal, comparing the clandestine act of finding a banned book in Russia to finding a hidden bottle of champagne in a bombed-out home during WWII ([36:40]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sudden Shift Post-Soviet Collapse

  “When we return to school after summer break in September 1991, the teachers acted as if the pioneer organization had never existed. It was peak Soviet absurdity.” — Clarissa Ward, recalling Zygar’s words ([04:34])

• On Soviet/Post-Soviet Cynicism

  “You know that you should not believe in anything, because if you believe in anything, you’re going to be cheated, you’re going to be hurt.” — Mikhail Zygar ([06:31])

• On Putin’s Use of Church and Ideology

  “Still less than 1% in Russia go to church on Sunday. Russia is still not religious country.” — Mikhail Zygar ([12:05])

• On Living in Fear

  “Fear of losing everything, fear of losing your salary, fear of losing your way of life is something that can paralyze any human being.” — Mikhail Zygar ([15:37])

• On Disinformation and Truth

  “The effect of that was actually more psychologically devastating than doubling down on one counter narrative... I guess there’s no such thing as truth, basically.” — Clarissa Ward ([16:29])

• On Generational Change

  “The most popular answer [among the older generation]: Kill them all. ... Post-Soviet generation: Equal rights, legalize same sex marriages. That’s the gap.” — Mikhail Zygar on LGBTQ poll ([18:18])

• On the Death of Navalny

  “That was like, no, no, Harry Potter cannot die. That’s the wrong ending of that story.” — Mikhail Zygar ([25:21])

• On Publishing in Today’s Russia

  “For Russians to find your book... it’s going to be like that bottle of champagne that they wanted to drink someday, and that’s right the day when they deserved to drink it.” — Dmitry Muratov (via Mikhail Zygar) ([36:40])

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:57 – Introduction and context for Part Two
• 04:34–10:53 – Collapse of communism, the creation of cynicism, and Zygar’s personal anecdotes
• 10:53–12:05 – Putin as a shadowy figure, emblematic of the Russian people and their cynicism
• 12:05–16:29 – Putin’s lack of ideology, failed state use of religion, the rise of self-censorship and metaphor of the hijacked airplane
• 16:29–20:01 – Disinformation, the case of Navalny, the corrosion of truth
• 20:01–21:35 – Generation divide, LGBTQ poll, Putin’s aims to re-Sovietize youth
• 24:19–28:21 – The future after Navalny, his role as anti-cynical hero/martyr
• 30:12–36:28 – Russia’s isolation, disillusionment with the West, and the generational and cultural consequences
• 36:28–37:57 – Hope for distributing suppressed literature, resilience under authoritarianism

Summary Flow & Tone

The episode is candid, occasionally bleak, but laced with dry humor and moments of hope. Zygar’s tone is knowledgeable, wry, and often personal. Clarissa Ward offers clear, empathetic questioning and reflection. The interplay is thoughtful and rich, delving deep into the complexities of Russian society, the power of cynicism, and the enduring hope for a future beyond it.

Suitable for listeners who want:

• A nuanced, insider’s view of Russian society post-1991
• Understanding of Putin’s methods and motivations
• Insight into generational divides in Russia
• Clear-eyed analysis of the obstacles and faint hopes for Russian democracy

[Note: Sections before 03:57 and after 37:57 are ads, intros, and outros and have been excluded as per instructions.]