Putin, The Soviet Union and The Rise of Russian Imperialism, with Mikhail Zygar (Part Two)

Summary

Intelligence Squared Podcast Summary

Episode: “Putin, The Soviet Union and The Rise of Russian Imperialism, with Mikhail Zygar (Part Two)”

Date: December 15, 2025
Host: Clarissa Ward (CNN Chief International Correspondent)
Guest: Mikhail Zygar (Russian journalist, author, and dissident)

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Episode Overview

This episode is Part Two of a live Intelligence Squared event featuring Russian journalist and dissident Mikhail Zygar in conversation with Clarissa Ward. The discussion focuses on the aftermath of the Soviet Union’s collapse and the roots of Russia’s persistent cynicism, the impact of these forces on the rise and entrenchment of Vladimir Putin, and the bleak and uncertain prospects for Russian democracy and civil society today. The conversation also addresses the generational divide within Russian society, the manipulation of history and ideology, the consequences for opposition figures, and the way both internal and external forces contribute to Russia’s isolation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Soviet Collapse, Gaslighting, and the Birth of Russian Cynicism

• Personal Recollections of Transition: Zygar reminisces about returning to school in September 1991 after the collapse of communism, where Soviet rituals were suddenly erased, and teachers “acted as if the pioneer organization had never existed” ([04:34]).
• Gaslighting of a Generation: The abrupt ideological U-turn from atheism to suddenly being told to “believe in God now” was, in Zygar’s words, “peak Soviet absurdity” and left many feeling gaslit ([05:10]).
• Cynicism as Core Russian Value: Zygar contends that “cynicism is probably the most important word in my book,” arguing it’s the defining feature of post-Soviet Russia ([06:31]):

  "That’s everything we should know about the Soviet generation, about Putin’s generation. They know that they should not believe in anything, because if you believe in anything, you’re going to be cheated, you’re going to be hurt." — Mikhail Zygar ([06:31])

• Materialism vs. Ideology: Under both Soviet and post-Soviet systems, the real motivator for individuals shifted from ideology to material gain—cigarettes and liquor in the past, “real money” today ([10:21]).

2. Putin as the Emblem of Russian Cynicism

• Putin’s Lack of Ideology: Zygar asserts that Putin “doesn’t really believe in anything,” instead embodying the habitual cynicism of his generation ([12:05]):

  "It’s very artificial. He doesn’t really believe in anything." — Mikhail Zygar ([12:05])

• Orthodox Church as Failing State Ideology: Both in Soviet times and now, attempts to use the Orthodox Church to infuse ideology have largely failed; Russia remains largely non-religious, with “less than 1% in Russia go to church on Sunday” ([12:05]).
• Self-Censorship and Fear: Zygar draws parallels to other countries, but says that in Russia the threat of losing hard-won material comforts breeds self-censorship and compliance:

  “Fear of losing everything, fear of losing your salary, fear of losing your way of life is something that can paralyze any human being.” — Mikhail Zygar ([15:37])

• The Hostage Metaphor: He likens Russian society to passengers on a hijacked airplane: “all those people who were trying to stand up and fight were shot... important for the rest, there are hot meals and champagne and they’re still being served... sometimes they can have an upgrade if they behave” ([15:52]).

3. Truth, Disinformation, and the Impact of Navalny’s Death

• Overload of Narratives: Clarissa Ward reflects on the state’s strategy to flood the zone with competing disinformation around Alexei Navalny’s poisoning—leading to a collapse in the perception of truth ([16:29]):

  “It was like, he was a drug addict, he slipped into a coma, he had something wrong with his adrenals, his kidney exploded... the effect of that was more psychologically devastating than doubling down on one counter narrative.” — Clarissa Ward ([16:29])

• Erosion of Truth Itself: This produces dangerous apathy: “Could have been anyone, could have been anything, I guess we’ll never know. I guess there’s no such thing as truth, basically.” — Clarissa Ward ([16:29])

4. Generational Divide and Social Change in Russia

• Striking Social Split: Zygar cites a poll (Levada Center, 2021) revealing older generations favoring violence against LGBTQ people, while younger, post-Soviet generations overwhelmingly support equal rights ([18:18]):

  "How different are the Soviet and post-Soviet generations?”

• Putin’s Need for Sovietization: The war in Ukraine, Zygar suggests, is partly motivated by a need to re-Sovietize the youth and maintain control:

  “He wants to bring Soviet Union back to the minds of that younger generation... He can rule Soviet-minded people. He cannot rule all those open-minded people. So he needs to intimidate them. He needs the war to make them leave.” — Mikhail Zygar ([20:01])

5. Prospects for the Future after Navalny

• Navalny as an Anti-Cynical Hero: Zygar and Ward discuss the unique power of Navalny’s optimism as an antidote to Russian cynicism; his rejection of the idea that “Russia is exceptional” and insistence that “Russia can be and should be democratic” ([25:21]):

  "Navalny was very unusual hero because he was not cynical at all. He was idealist... He gave his life for one very clear idea, that Russia can be democratic country. Russia is no different." — Mikhail Zygar ([25:21])

• Emotional Impact of Navalny’s Death: Many in exile felt his death was the “worst moment for many people” ([25:21]). Comparing Navalny to “Harry Potter,” Zygar notes, “the moment when Navalny died, that was like: no, no, Harry Potter cannot die. That’s the wrong ending of that story.” ([25:21])

6. Russia’s Escalating Isolation—External and Internal

• Loss of Western Connection: A question from the audience raises the issue of how young, internationally minded Russians are leaving, and Russians are cut off from Western culture and literature ([30:12]).
• Anti-Western Propaganda Finds Traction: Zygar observes that, while Russians do not buy most propaganda, anti-Western messaging is effective. Disillusionment with the West is increasing because many pro-Western Russians felt abandoned after 2022, often forced to return home amid bank account closures or travel bans ([31:00]).

  “Everyone lost their dream. And everyone, including me, including everyone who left Russia, but all those people who stayed there, they lost their vision of the future. The future was over on... March 2022.” — Mikhail Zygar ([31:00])

• The End of Western Romanticism: There is no longer “romanticism about the West” among Russians—what remains is cynicism and increasing isolation, which “makes Putin happy.” This is a “mutual effort from the west and of Russian propaganda” ([33:56]).

7. Publishing Under Repression

• Smuggling Ideas: Zygar shares hopes to publish his book in Russia despite being a convicted criminal, comparing the clandestine act of finding a banned book in Russia to finding a hidden bottle of champagne in a bombed-out home during WWII ([36:40]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sudden Shift Post-Soviet Collapse

  “When we return to school after summer break in September 1991, the teachers acted as if the pioneer organization had never existed. It was peak Soviet absurdity.” — Clarissa Ward, recalling Zygar’s words ([04:34])

• On Soviet/Post-Soviet Cynicism

  “You know that you should not believe in anything, because if you believe in anything, you’re going to be cheated, you’re going to be hurt.” — Mikhail Zygar ([06:31])

• On Putin’s Use of Church and Ideology

  “Still less than 1% in Russia go to church on Sunday. Russia is still not religious country.” — Mikhail Zygar ([12:05])

• On Living in Fear

  “Fear of losing everything, fear of losing your salary, fear of losing your way of life is something that can paralyze any human being.” — Mikhail Zygar ([15:37])

• On Disinformation and Truth

  “The effect of that was actually more psychologically devastating than doubling down on one counter narrative... I guess there’s no such thing as truth, basically.” — Clarissa Ward ([16:29])

• On Generational Change

  “The most popular answer [among the older generation]: Kill them all. ... Post-Soviet generation: Equal rights, legalize same sex marriages. That’s the gap.” — Mikhail Zygar on LGBTQ poll ([18:18])

• On the Death of Navalny

  “That was like, no, no, Harry Potter cannot die. That’s the wrong ending of that story.” — Mikhail Zygar ([25:21])

• On Publishing in Today’s Russia

  “For Russians to find your book... it’s going to be like that bottle of champagne that they wanted to drink someday, and that’s right the day when they deserved to drink it.” — Dmitry Muratov (via Mikhail Zygar) ([36:40])

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:57 – Introduction and context for Part Two
• 04:34–10:53 – Collapse of communism, the creation of cynicism, and Zygar’s personal anecdotes
• 10:53–12:05 – Putin as a shadowy figure, emblematic of the Russian people and their cynicism
• 12:05–16:29 – Putin’s lack of ideology, failed state use of religion, the rise of self-censorship and metaphor of the hijacked airplane
• 16:29–20:01 – Disinformation, the case of Navalny, the corrosion of truth
• 20:01–21:35 – Generation divide, LGBTQ poll, Putin’s aims to re-Sovietize youth
• 24:19–28:21 – The future after Navalny, his role as anti-cynical hero/martyr
• 30:12–36:28 – Russia’s isolation, disillusionment with the West, and the generational and cultural consequences
• 36:28–37:57 – Hope for distributing suppressed literature, resilience under authoritarianism

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Summary Flow & Tone

The episode is candid, occasionally bleak, but laced with dry humor and moments of hope. Zygar’s tone is knowledgeable, wry, and often personal. Clarissa Ward offers clear, empathetic questioning and reflection. The interplay is thoughtful and rich, delving deep into the complexities of Russian society, the power of cynicism, and the enduring hope for a future beyond it.

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Suitable for listeners who want:

• A nuanced, insider’s view of Russian society post-1991
• Understanding of Putin’s methods and motivations
• Insight into generational divides in Russia
• Clear-eyed analysis of the obstacles and faint hopes for Russian democracy

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[Note: Sections before 03:57 and after 37:57 are ads, intros, and outros and have been excluded as per instructions.]

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Producer Mia Sorrenti]

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. For this episode. We're rejoining for part two of our recent live event with dissident Russian journalist Mikhail Zegar. Cigar joined us recently at the Kiln Theatre in London to discuss the fall of the Soviet Union and the roots of Russia's democratic failure. Today he was in conversation with Clarissa Ward, chief international correspondent for cnn. Now, if you haven't heard part one, we recommend jumping back an episode to get up to speed. Let's rejoin the conversation now live at the Kiln Theater.

[Clarissa Ward]

You know, you talk about these sort of autobiographical interludes that you have at the beginning of every chapter, which I loved. And there's a great one where you talk about the collapse of communism and you had been a young pioneer, which I guess all school children of. Yeah, Boy scout, exactly. And you have this great line where you say, when we return to school after summer break in September 1991, the teachers acted as if the pioneer organization had never existed. It was peak Soviet absurdity. And I just wonder, I think for most of us that is such a.

[Mikhail Zygar]

Let me continue. And they started speaking just like everything we said about Lenin. That's bullshit. Forget about it now it's God. You should believe in God now.

[Clarissa Ward]

Yeah. Which I mean, I think it's hard for us to really understand the impact of being told that you are serving or you are in service of an ideal every day for many decades, only to come to work one day and it's like, yeah, that was bullshit, as you say. And you know, it was made up and it didn't work. And now we're going to try something new. And one of the things that I think you articulate so well in the book is that like no one ever really dealt with that or. Or responded to that. It was just sort of assumed that everyone would be so psyched about having more freedom that they would get over the fact that an ideology that was many decades in the making was gone in a puff of smoke. And people felt like they were being. It was gaslighting almost. It was like, no, we don't believe in that anymore. It never happened. It's over the effect that that has on the psyche of a population that has basically abdicated agency in service of this ideal, only to be told you were a sucker. Basically.

[Mikhail Zygar]

That's why cynicism is probably the most important word in my book. So, yeah, I explain why Russia now is the most cynical country in the world, why cynicism has become the new ideology, or at least that's in fact what people really think and feel. And actually that applied to the Soviet people as well, because no one was really believing in communism. A lot of people had to repeat all those mantras about Marx, Engels and Lenin. They had to sit in the congresses or in the cells of Communist Party and repeat that meaningless bullshit. But everyone understood that it was just a ritual. There was no meaning for no one. Vladimir Putin was the perfect example. He is the minor character of important character of the book. And he is the perfect example how not important all of that was. So his biggest dream was to travel abroad, was to go and live abroad. And once when he was given that opportunity, he was given a choice to continue his education, to become a real spy and to be sent to West Germany or to go abroad to GDR right now. And definitely, who cares about being spy? Who cares about Korea? Going abroad was beyond any dream of Soviet citizen. Pack of Marlborough and bottle of imported whiskey was the real treasure. People were 100% cynical. And in a way, that's everything we should know about the Soviet generation, about Putin's generation. They know that they should not believe in anything, because if you believe in anything, you're going to be cheated, you're going to be hurt. And that's the same what happened to my generation. Because definitely when you are. I was 10. And when you were told that forget about that, about communism, now we should believe in God. That's the best explanation why you should not really believe in anything in this world, why values do not exist, only money. So we can jump to what is happening in Russia today, but Russia is all about the money. People are fighting in Ukraine. People are going to Ukraine because they are getting paid. And their wives are happy to send their husbands to the war because that's the perfect solution for all of their problems. In the most depressive regions of Russia, where people don't have money, they drink a lot. So let's imagine there is a family, domestic abuser, his wife. He drinks a lot, doesn't earn, beats his wife, beats kids, and she's afraid to divorce because he's going to kill her. And then there is a gift from the heaven. She can sell him to the army and get a lot of money for that. If he's wounded, she gets $100,000. If he's killed even more. That's like two apartments. And it's much better than divorce. He's gone.

[Clarissa Ward]

Does he have a say in this?

[Mikhail Zygar]

She's got money, he's a hero. But it's not about making Russia great again. It's only about money. It's all that Soviet cynicism, but, like, very post Soviet cynicism, but still. Yeah, the value of the Soviet period was much. The bar was lower. It was all about cigarettes and liquor. Now the standards of living are higher. So now it's about real money.

[Clarissa Ward]

So give us a sense then of how Putin. And as you said, he's. Or shall I say Vova, as you sometimes refer to him as, like, diminutive. He's kind of a shadowy figure in this book. He pops up here and there, but he's not like one of the principal characters, though, obviously. He's.

[Mikhail Zygar]

He's the representative of the people, of the real people and.

[Clarissa Ward]

Right, right. And I just wonder, I mean, you've talked about this idea of cynicism, and is the idea that Putin has successfully weaponized that cynicism or turned it against the system, how do you think he stepped into the void of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the chaos of the 90s and was able to create a different narrative. And I think it's interesting what you're saying that, like, he doesn't really have an ideology because there's so much endless pontificating in the west about trying to understand Russian revanchism and are they trying to rebuild the Soviet Union and is it about empire, and is it about this or that? But you seem to be implying that it might be a bit simpler than that. It may just be about greed on a certain level.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Mikhail Zygar]

It's very artificial. Artificial. I assume that it's very artificial. And he doesn't really believe in anything. And I have this story about his predecessor who looks. If you compare pictures of Vladimir Kruchkov, the last head of KGB of the Soviet Union and Vladimir Putin, like he looks right now, they are like two Soviet Agent Smiths from Matrix. They are just the same. But I have the story of Vladimir Krushkov, head of kgb, trying to replace communist ideology with Orthodox Christianity and trying to save Soviet Union with help of the Orthodox Church. And he failed because church was not really important and no one really believed in anything. And that's exactly what Putin is doing right now. He's trying to make the church's Russian Orthodox Church kind of ministry of ideology. And it's clear not working because still less than 1% in Russia go to church on Sunday. Russia is still not religious country. At the same time, people found the way how to enjoy life after. So that's the key of Putin's stability. Because you know, as you don't know that probably, but I was 10 when Soviet Union collapsed. But I know that Karl Marx wrote that working class is the driver of the revolution because it has nothing to lose except for its chains. Russian people have a lot to lose. They have something. During the last two decades, the fat decades of oil price, of huge oil, of high oil prices, a lot of people still change their way of life. A lot of people have apartments and mortgages and cars and they can travel to Turkey or to Thailand and they have, they have something to lose. And they remember that in the 90s or in the Soviet Union, that was completely different. So they. And actually that, you know, we see that in some other countries, we see that self censorship is not the privilege of the Russian media. We see that if in some democratic countries, presidents start firing journalists, calling them piggy, or changing the management of cbs, it's working because owners comply. And self censorship starts working. Even in those societies where you would not expect that to work somehow fear of losing everything, fear of losing your salary, fear of losing your way of life is something that can paralyze any human being. And in the case of Russia, we have that tradition. We have that tradition of fear. Probably that's not the perfect comparison, but I sometimes compare Russia today to the airplane that was hijacked by a group of terrorists. And all those people who were trying to stand up and fight were shot on the spot. But what's important for all the rest, there are hot meals and champagne and they're still being served. And sometimes they can have an upgrade if they behave. And they live in this situation for so many years, they probably don't even realize they forgot that that was, that was a group of terrorists. They live in this situation, they know that it's in vain to start screaming because you will lose everything, but you will get your meal when it's time.

[Clarissa Ward]

So let me ask you this. Do they believe these people who we're talking about in kind of a generic sense? But I remember when Alexei Navalny, before he was killed, when he was first born, poisoned, and what was so striking about the Russian government's response was that they didn't just come up with one counter narrative and say, no, he wasn't poisoned, he had a heart attack, for example. And this week they put out 12 different theories in the space of a week. And it was like he was a drug addict, he slipped into a coma, he had something wrong with his adrenals, his kidney exploded. And every minute it was like a new. And the effect of that was actually more psychologically devastating than doubling down on one counter narrative and trying to get everybody to believe that. Because basically most sane people were like, could have been anyone, could have been anything. I guess we'll never know. I guess there's no such thing as truth, basically. Right. And this sort of handing it over. But when. And that's something, by the way, that we can talk about in a little bit. But that I think has kind of been exported to many parts of the world and especially with social media and this just real rise in, like, even very deep cynicism. But I'm wondering, when you're talking about whatever swath of Russian society is that you're referring to, like, do you think they believe deep down there's a right or a wrong, There's a good, there's a bad, there's a cause. We should, but it's not worth it. Is it a level of kind of thoughtfulness and introspection that's going into this? Or is it just like.

[Mikhail Zygar]

Who are they?

[Clarissa Ward]

Who are they? But I mean, you were referring to they, the people on the airplane who are not fighting the terrorists.

[Mikhail Zygar]

They are very different. My beloved example, how different people in Russia are is the result of the survey conducted in 2021 by the the only independent polling agency, Levado Center. That was the poll about attitude to LGBTQ people. The question was, what would you do to gay people in Russia? And it's very interesting to compare what different generations say. So people older than 50, 60, 60 Soviet generation, those who spend most of their lives in the Soviet UN the majority, more than 60%, says what your guess what you are 65 years old, Russian woman. What would you do to gay people? Kill them all? Death penalty. That was the most popular answer for 60, 40 minus post Soviet generation. People who never lived in Soviet Union, don't remember it, don't have any Soviet values. 60%. The most popular answer is. Equal rights, legalize same sex marriages. Say those people and that's the gap.

[Clarissa Ward]

Yeah.

[Mikhail Zygar]

How different are the Soviet and post Soviet generations? And that's the explanation what Putin is doing, why he needs this war because he wants to bring Soviet Union back to the minds of that younger generation. He sees that he's kind of losing the country, but he's losing Russia because he's losing Soviet Union. He's losing that mental state that he is used to. He can rule Soviet minded people. He cannot rule all those open minded people. So he needs to intimidate them. He needs the war to make them leave. He needs to make them be afraid of I have a story of probably the most famous Soviet gay filmmaker, Sergei Paradjanov, who spent five years in jail for homosexuality. So he needs to bring that range of reasons to be afraid of to that young generation that doesn't have all those wounds, doesn't have all those Soviet values. They were not brought up in troubled Soviet neighborhoods. They they were brought up online on TikTok, Facebook, whatever.

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[Clarissa Ward]

So given, given what you've just said and like where we are now and obviously we are in a world where Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny was murdered by the state while serving in a Russian gulag. So many have been arrested, imprisoned, disappeared and countless others like yourself are living in exile. It feels a little bleak. But then you will see these pockets of this young woman who is a musician who has been performing these songs in St. Petersburg. And I just wonder, she escaped yesterday. Yeah. Oh, she escaped yesterday.

[Producer Mia Sorrenti]

Okay.

[Mikhail Zygar]

She left Russia with her boyfriend.

[Clarissa Ward]

So I mean, what does the future look like for Russia in your mind? And is it contingent on when or if President Putin dies? I mean not if obviously at some point he probably will. Although I don't know.

[Mikhail Zygar]

Yeah, we all heard his conversation with Xi Jinping and if xi Jinping predicted 150 years, Putin said we are going to be immortal. So Putin doesn't think about 150 years immortality. That's the goal. You are right that yeah. The situation, especially after for many Russians in exile, the situation after the moment when Navalny died was probably the worst moment for many people somehow because of for cynical country and for cynical society. Navalny was very unusual hero because he was not cynical at all. He was idealist and he was trying to prove that he was that he built. His message was that Russia is not exceptional country. Russia is the country that can be and should be democrat. It should be normal, decent, European, democratic country. And that was such a nice message. And people wanted to believe him. And somehow after he survived that assassination attempt in 2020, people started thinking about him, like about Harry Potter. I'm not joking. It was like the most popular comparison on Russian social media. Definitely Harry Potter should defeat Dark Lord. He's going to survive all possible, he's going to escape death and in the end he's going to be the winner. So the moment when Navalny died, that was like, no, no, we Harry Potter cannot die. That's the wrong ending of that story. That's our problem that somehow a lot of people, everywhere, a lot of Russian speaking people created that dream that Navalny was Harry Potter. But I think that somehow the fact that he died for those ideas is also very powerful. He gave his life for one very clear idea, that Russia can be democratic country. Russia is no different. And he's not the first person to believe in that. Andrei Sakharov, the most important character of my book, was the first person to start saying, to start speaking about that aloud that Soviet, he believed that Soviet Union could be democratic. Navalny really believed and he gave his life for that. Which makes him some kind of Russian messiah, which somehow that makes this message quite powerful. So I think it will be important for the next generation to have that moral example.

[Clarissa Ward]

And it's funny you should say that. And after I say this, I'm going to open it up for questions because I'm sure you have a lot. But with regards to Navalny and this lack of cynicism that was actually quite striking. I had interviewed him shortly after he was poisoned and I understood from his that he was going to go back to Moscow. And I remember having the conversation with a number of them and saying, I'm a journalist, it's not for me to say, but this seems crazy. It's minus 23 degrees in January because the hope was that we're going to be a wave of protests and he's going to be arrested right away and it could be very dangerous and it could be this and it could be that. And it was so interesting talking to the people around him because they were just like a, Alexei has made up his mind. But B, he really had the power of optimism. And being optimistic in a moment where you'd almost think it was crazy to be optimistic. I mean, you've just survived being poisoned with a lethal nerve agent and there you are getting on a plane and watching your favorite cartoon with your wife on your like budget airline flight back to Moscow. I mean, it's like, it's surreal, but it is as you say, the most powerful antidote to that raw cynicism, to have someone be like, no, I'm gonna choose to believe in something different and something better and something brighter. And that makes the ending, obviously, far more depressing. Who would like to answer a question? Even I see two here. Thank you for that talk.

[Producer Mia Sorrenti]

And I have a question.

[Clarissa Ward]

There was a generation in Russia in the 90s of young people who went abroad, studied abroad, learned languages, came back. And these generations now 50 plus, and the younger generation, whoever speaks languages, whoever has experience of Western culture, either staying put in the west or basically leaving Russia. So with that and with the fact that many books are not being translated into Russia, basically Russian people are deprived of modern literature and modern culture, which is predominant in the West. Don't you think west is playing Putin's game, helping them isolate?

[Mikhail Zygar]

You know, I think that is a problem, because in Russia today, probably the most popular phrase I hear from everyone I talk to who lives there is everyone understands everything. It means that people don't buy propaganda. Just they don't waste time to listen to it or to explain. So it's clear everyone kind of understand everything. But at the same time, there is one part of propaganda that works clearly and that's anti Western propaganda. People really feel more and more isolated because there is definitely different approach. Because during the Cold War, there was that feeling that in the west, that the west had to help Russian people to get to escape that tyranny, to defect to the west, at least. I have a lot of stories of people being people escaping from the Soviet Union. And what we see now is somehow quite the opposite. Right in the beginning of the war, of the invasion of Ukraine. I remember I left Russia on the third day of the war, and I was writing and talking quite a lot on different international TV channels for different newspapers. I remember that everyone was shocked in Russia. A lot of people were. A lot of businessmen were trying to leave. A lot of people were trying to stay in the west, not to be accomplices, not to participate, not to help the regime, because everyone was thinking that that was Putin's fatal mistake. There is no way he would. Could possibly get away with it. And somehow most of those people, quite a lot of those people, were pushed back to Russia with bank accounts frozen or closed. A lot of people who were very pro Western who never wanted to be locked up in the same prison with Putin, somehow they had to go back. And I'm talking not about oligarchs. I'm talking about people who had that vision. Everyone lost their dream. And everyone, including me, including everyone who left Russia, but all those people who stayed there, they lost their vision of the future. The future was over on December, February and probably March 2022. And somehow those, those people who are in Russia, they are becoming more and more cynical, more and more anti Western. Because in the Soviet period there was some kind of romanticism about the west, that the life is much better there. It's free and fair and it's democratic and if we go there it's going to be better. And now there is no such romanticism. A lot of people know the West, a lot of people were hurt. A lot of people had to go back, although they didn't want to. This part of propaganda works. The perfect, the perfect example somehow from those very liberal minded people I was talking to. Most people were hurt personally by the Olympic Games. They were commending it like, look, everyone is participating. North Korea, Sudan, Somalia, Syria, everyone. All the most brutal regimes. Only Russia is excluded. Is it about. No, it's not about human rights, it's not about the war. They just hate us. And it's hard to explain that, yes, it doesn't work this way. Somehow people feel what they want to feel. And yes, Russia slowly, as it was becoming more and more pro Western in the Soviet period, it is becoming more and more anti Western and somehow Putin is happy. So that's the result of the mutual effort from the west and of Russian propaganda. Russian propaganda repeats that Russia is doomed to be dictatorship. So do the Western media. I'm not sure that it means that new generation is going to be very North Korean. We see that it's not happening. We see some kind of. So far at least we see Gen Z uprising on TikTok happening right now.

[Clarissa Ward]

And can I just ask. And then I'll get to your question right away. I'm sorry for hogging you, but just. We talked about your book in Russian, but can Russians get your book? Where can they get your book? How can they get your book?

[Mikhail Zygar]

I have a plan. I have a friend whose name is Dmitry Muratov. He's Nobel Prize winner and editor in chief of Nova Egazeta. And he read this book and he told me that we need to make a plan to publish it in Russia because he had a lovely comparison. He said, let's just think of people during the World War II. There was 1949, 1942, and your house was bombed and you live in ruins. Everything was destroyed. And there is New Year's night and somehow in these ruins of your former apartment. You find the hidden bottle of champagne that's very important for Russians to find your book. It's going to be like that bottle of champagne that they wanted to drink someday, and that's right the day when they deserved to drink it. So we have a plan with Muratav, who is still in Moscow, to publish it for Although there is a problem with me, I'm convicted criminal.

[Clarissa Ward]

Can you all please join me in giving a warm round of applause?

[Producer Mia Sorrenti]

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Ginny Hooker and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings. Become a member ntelligencesquared.com Membership and to join us at future events you can head to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full live events program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.

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