Intelligence Squared — “Rory Stewart on Trump, Nationalism and The Value of Rural Life (Part One)”

Episode Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Caroline Lucas (in conversation with Rory Stewart)
Produced by: Mia Sorrenti

Episode Overview

This episode features a live event conversation between Caroline Lucas, former Green Party leader, and Rory Stewart, ex-MP, podcaster, and author (“Dispatches from the Borders”). The discussion explores Stewart’s insights on British identity, history, and democracy, focusing on his experiences representing the rural constituency of Penrith and the Border in Cumbria. The episode delves into the urban-rural divide, the challenges of local representation, the shortcomings of Britain’s electoral system, and the tensions between preservation and progress in rural landscapes.

Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Cultural and Historical Identity of “Middleland”

[04:12–12:26]

• Penrith and the Border: Stewart’s book is a tribute to Cumbria—a region he describes as having a powerful sense of place and identity.
• “Middleland”: A historic kingdom preceding England and Scotland, with its own language, kings, and cultural traditions. Stewart frames Cumbria as both “elusive” and “impressively beautiful”—a place that history often overlooks.
• Imaginative Soul of Britain: Stewart asserts that Cumbria (and its cultural echo with the Borders) shaped the Romantic movement and continues to inspire British identity.
  • Quote: “Cumbria, I think, is somewhere which still retains that sense of difference.” — Rory Stewart [09:08]
  • Quote: “It is at some deep level what many British, but particularly English people, probably think of when they think of England.” — Rory Stewart [11:06]

2. Rural vs. Urban: Government Blindness and Local Challenges

[12:26–18:47]

• Disconnect from Westminster: Stewart details how central government struggles to understand rural needs—particularly regarding essential infrastructure like broadband and mobile signals.
  • Ex: Rural Cumbria pays a far higher cost for broadband than cities, and such differences are routinely downplayed by policymakers.
  • Anecdote: Liz Truss, as Environment Secretary, said, “There’s no such thing as rural affairs. There’s no difference between cities and rural areas.” — Rory Stewart [13:24]
  • Quote: “Their only hope of economic survival is to have superfast broadband so they can communicate.” — Rory Stewart [14:08]
• Economic Metrics Mismatch: Central ideas of growth and productivity do not translate to the micro-economies of rural life, with small businesses and multi-skilled individuals.
  • Quote: “Maybe it would be more efficient to close all the hundred acre farms and have 10,000-acre farms…but that would be completely missing what gives meaning and purpose to people’s lives.” — Rory Stewart [17:43]
  • Quote: “At the level of the individual farmer, they are living very tough lives they are profoundly proud of, on incomes of £17,000 a year.” — Rory Stewart [18:18]

3. Limits and Paradoxes of Political Representation

[24:03–28:52]

• Role of a Constituency MP: Stewart and Lucas discuss the complexities and limitations of one person representing the diverse lives, needs, and disagreements of 100,000 people.
  • Quote: “Most of the time I’m not initiating or deciding, but instead doing that ambiguous thing called representing.” — Rory Stewart [24:49]
  • Quote: “We’re very aware now…about the problems of speaking for other people, of representing other people.” — Rory Stewart [25:09]
  • Stewart admits “schlepping” around, trying to understand various constituent lives, but notes this is inevitably shaped by his own biases and backgrounds.
• Challenge of True Representation: The impossibility of fully representing all interests and identities, especially within a heterogenous population and outdated party-political structures.
  • Quote: “How can I…I mean, how many—500 people in this room—I’m being asked to represent 10, 20 times this number even in my constituency and then in the country…What does that mean?” — Rory Stewart [25:09]
  • Stewart supports innovative democratic reforms: “I think having a constituency MP is a good thing…I’m in favor of a fairer voting system, proportional representation.” — Caroline Lucas [28:26]

4. Critique of the British Electoral System & Political Fragmentation

[28:52–30:40]

• Systemic Failures: Stewart criticizes “First Past the Post” as outmoded and unequal given the five-party reality of modern UK politics.
  • Quote: “This Labour government came in with a big majority, with the lowest percentage share of the vote of any government…The Conservative Party got the lowest vote share on record.” — Rory Stewart [29:33]
  • He advocates for a model like New Zealand’s, which retains constituency links but better reflects voter diversity.
• Risks of Status Quo: Both speakers express concern about the system’s vulnerability to populism (e.g., possibility of a Farage government with a minority of the vote).
  • Quote: “As soon as you get beyond a certain percentage of the vote, it flips the other way. You then get far more seats…And that’s the position [Farage’s party] is in now.” — Rory Stewart [31:15]

5. Preserving the Landscape vs. Imposed “Progress” — The NIMBY Debate

[32:47–36:51]

• Development vs. Preservation: Stewart reflects on wind turbines, rewilding, housing, and nuclear waste—debating when local opposition is selfish “NIMBYism” versus legitimate self-determination.
  • Quote: “When Cumbrians stand against things being done to them, they are described as NIMBYs…But the people who are doing this to you don’t live in your area.” — Rory Stewart [32:55]
  • Cumbria has historically hosted projects rejected elsewhere: nuclear plants, military sites, reservoirs, forests—often to the detriment of local communities.
• Ethics of Imposed Change: Stewart questions London’s tendency to treat Cumbria as “a blank space on a map” for unwanted developments.
  • Quote: “Are treating Cumbria as though it’s a blank space on a map, as though there aren’t any humans living there…to dump nuclear waste, quite literally.” — Rory Stewart [34:33]
• On Nuclear Power: Stewart reveals deep unease given the burdensome, generational costs of nuclear waste clean-up in Cumbria.
  • Quote: “We are paid two and a half billion pounds a year to clean up nuclear waste which was deposited there in the 1950s and 1960s…That makes me wonder what on earth the economics of this thing are.” — Rory Stewart [36:34]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I became completely obsessed with this man [the Roman-era senator from Penrith], about whom we know very little, partly because what I sensed was the total nonsense of being a Roman member of Parliament…presumably spent most of his time feeling completely ineffectual, unable to do anything, and endlessly apologizing to his constituents for laws that were coming from far away.” — Rory Stewart [06:48]
• “You’re perceived as very selfish. But…often the people projecting this at them…I think rewilding is actually the last chapter in this story.” — Rory Stewart [33:17]
• “We don’t actually know what people do. My county council couldn’t tell me…It’s a very generic view on what’s going on.” — Rory Stewart [20:28]

Key Timestamps

• [04:12–12:26] — Setting the scene: rural Cumbria, “Middleland,” and cultural significance
• [12:26–18:47] — The rural-urban divide and Westminster’s disconnect
• [24:03–28:52] — The oddities and difficulties of parliamentary representation
• [28:52–31:47] — Critique of the UK electoral system & the threat of populism
• [32:47–36:51] — When is opposing local development right or selfish? The ethics of rural preservation
• [35:44–36:51] — Stewart’s skepticism of nuclear energy and burden on Cumbria

Tone and Closing

Stewart’s tone is reflective, candid, occasionally wry, and deeply rooted in place-based empathy. Lucas brings incisiveness, warmth and a cooperative challenge in exploring the same themes. The episode balances nostalgia for the local with critical realism about politics as practiced—from the “mythical” borderlands to the hard choices of twenty-first century governance.

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