Intelligence Squared Podcast Summary

Episode: Rory Stewart on Trump, Nationalism and The Value of Rural Life (Part Two)
Date: December 12, 2025
Host: Intelligence Squared
Guest: Rory Stewart (Co-host of The Rest is Politics, author)
Guest Interlocutor: Caroline Lucas (Former Green Party leader)
Setting: Live event at Friends House, London

Episode Overview

In this engaging live discussion, Rory Stewart explores the complex dynamics between rural and urban life, the challenges and nuances of rewilding in the UK, the nature of British and national identity, the real drivers behind rising populism and authoritarianism (with a focus on Trump), and the need for democratic reform. Stewart draws on history, personal experience, and themes from his book Dispatches from the Borders, weaving together issues of culture, landscape, politics, and belonging.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Limits and Stakes of Rewilding

[03:50 – 11:27]

• Rewilding's Tensions with Human Culture

  • Stewart argues that rewilding is not a straightforward return to a benign, pre-human "nature," but a process with deep implications for culture, landscape, and rural communities.
  • He provides a historical overview: the British countryside is not 'wilderness' but the product of thousands of years integrating farming with nature.
  • Rewilding, as currently promoted, risks erasing centuries of human influence and undermining rural economies and traditions.

  “We are a small island, more densely populated than India... the landscape is about the integration of farming and nature.”
  — Rory Stewart [05:30]

  • Stewart recounts how New England’s forests hide the ruins of vanished farms; similarly, England's ancient walls and landscapes are products of ongoing human-nature interaction.

  “These are stone walls which were laid in the Bronze Age, early Bronze Age, Late Neolithic period. The landscape was cleared... about 4,000 years ago.”
  — Rory Stewart [07:07]

  • Rewilding initiatives threaten this living legacy, driving out farming communities, reducing biodiversity in some areas (e.g., losing meadowland birds), and turning villages into holiday homes.

  “This model... says what they're doing is restoring nature. Well, what they're restoring is something that literally has not existed in this landscape for 5,000 years.”
  — Rory Stewart [11:07]

• Case Study: NEP Estate

  • Stewart acknowledges successful rewilding projects like NEP in Sussex, noting their limited scale and economic context.

  “NEP is great, but... it's not replicable. The dream of the rewilders is to do this at landscape scale... but places like Cumbria are very different.”
  — Rory Stewart [11:40]

• Historical Analogy: Norman Forest Laws

  • Stewart draws a parallel with the Norman imposition of Forest Laws, which excluded people from rural lands for the benefit of royal hunting — resulting in mass exclusion, an unpopular legacy.

  “There was a reason why the humans got rid of the Forest Laws.”
  — Rory Stewart [14:03]

National Identity, the UK, and Scottish Independence

[14:16 – 19:09]

• Identity and the Case for a United Kingdom

  • Stewart’s vision of the UK is of nations united by deep cultural 'grammar.' He acknowledges gross inequality and English dominance, but sees division as a “tragedy.”

  “Had the people of Scotland voted for independence, I would have accepted their vote… but I think it would make us all weaker, smaller, and more diminished as people.”
  — Rory Stewart [15:48]

  • He connects nostalgia for separation (in both Brexit and Scottish independence) to the human inclination to blame others for internal problems.

  “Your lives do not get better by cutting yourself off from your nearest neighbors, breaking your links...”
  — Rory Stewart [16:29]

• Democracy and Referenda

  • Stewart maintains that if demand in Scotland is overwhelming, another referendum would eventually happen. He draws a distinction with more rigid states (like Spain).

  “If there is an overwhelming demand within Scotland for referendum, we would concede it. This isn’t Spain.”
  — Rory Stewart [18:00]

• Democratic Reform and Devolution

  • Emphasizes the answer to national crises is “to become more local and more democratic,” with genuine devolution of power not just to nations, but to regions and communities.

  “Scotland is not going to be served by all the power being concentrated in Edinburgh any more than it’s served by all the power being concentrated in London.”
  — Rory Stewart [19:09]

The Nature of Good Governance and Populism

[19:09 – 22:53]

• Alienation and the Limits of Technocratic Government

  • Stewart criticizes the belief that government incompetence is simply a delivery issue; argues the real problem is lack of agency and local control.
  • Governance is not just technocratic efficiency, but navigating competing values.

  “People don’t feel that they have control or at stake. They want more democracy, not more action.”
  — Rory Stewart [21:00]

  • He compares the fantasy of a “hyper-efficient company” to the reality that most policy is about negotiating complex, conflicting interests rather than executing clear-cut strategies.
  • Stewart’s central thesis: Local democracy and involvement can mitigate the disenchantment fueling populism.

Should Rory Stewart Run for Local Office?

[25:31 – 27:37]

• The host recalls a listener’s question to Stewart about disengagement with national parties and the viability of local democracy (mayors, citizens’ assemblies).

• Stewart reveals ongoing contemplation of running for mayor, potentially in Cumbria, seeing local leadership as a space for real democratic experimentation.

  “Maybe I could run to be an independent mayor. I sometimes think about doing it in Cumbria... there might be much more freedom [locally] to reinvent democracy.”
  — Rory Stewart [26:21]

Trump, Populism, and Democratic Fragility

[27:37 – 31:29]

• Stewart’s Deep Concern about Trump

  • He issues a stern warning about normalizing authoritarian populism and drawing moral distinctions only between increasingly worse actors.

  “I’m very, very, very, very worried. I’m very worried partly because so many people aren’t worried... What is Trump? He is somebody who is a... abhorrent offense to the traditions of the United States, the traditions of democracy.”
  — Rory Stewart [28:16 & 28:57]

  • Stewart notes a creeping erosion of support for human rights—even in the UK. Cites troubling examples of public discourse turning openly bigoted and the risk of accepting such sentiments.

  “This is so horrifying, because the whole point about human rights, without being pompous about it, is that we are equal.”
  — Rory Stewart [30:52]

  • Argues that once it’s accepted to target one group, dignity and rights for all are endangered.

Audience Q&A Highlights

[32:03 – 36:24]

• The Shift of the Overton Window (Acceptable Political Discourse)

  • Stewart laments the rightward radicalization of political energy in the UK, referencing the normalization of extreme rhetoric that would have been unthinkable a decade ago.

  “10 years ago it would not be acceptable for any Conservative MP to suggest that people with legal rights of residence in the United Kingdom should be expelled... Now it is.”
  — Rory Stewart [32:43]

  • Draws parallels with Europe in the 1920s-30s and the dangers of liberals being dismissed as out-of-touch intellectuals as democracy erodes.

• Praise for New Zealand’s Hybrid Electoral System

  • Stewart explains how New Zealand’s blend of first-past-the-post and proportional representation allowed for more political moderation and pluralism.

  “It allowed the Conservative Party to break between its right wing and its left wing and create a much more interesting, diverse and more moderate form of politics in New Zealand.”
  — Rory Stewart [36:13]

Memorable Quotes

• “The landscape is about the integration of farming and nature… what [rewilding advocates] are restoring is something that literally has not existed in this landscape for 5,000 years.”
  — Rory Stewart [05:30, 11:07]

• “Your lives do not get better by cutting yourself off from your nearest neighbors.”
  — Rory Stewart [16:29]

• “People don’t feel that they have control or at stake. They want more democracy, not more action.”
  — Rory Stewart [21:00]

• “I’m very, very, very, very worried [about Trump] partly because so many people aren’t worried.”
  — Rory Stewart [28:16]

• “This is so horrifying, because the whole point about human rights… is that we are equal.”
  — Rory Stewart [30:52]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:50: Deep dive into rewilding and human culture
• 14:16: British national identity, Scottish independence, and the structure of the UK
• 19:09: Democratic reform and rationale for a more federal, local politics
• 25:31: Reflecting on political (dis)engagement and the draw of local office
• 28:16: Stewart on the threat of Trump and populist authoritarianism
• 32:03: Q&A – shifting political discourse and New Zealand’s electoral system

Tone and Style

The conversation is intellectually rich, historically grounded, and conversational, with Stewart displaying both passion and deep respect for the complexity of issues discussed. There is a recurring theme of caution — against radical change, against demonization, and against complacency as democracy is tested by new populist currents.

For listeners or readers seeking thoughtful analysis on British identity, rewilding, devolution, and the defense of liberal democracy, this episode provides a masterclass in considered, nuanced debate.