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- [00:01]
Sajid Javid
I'm Alex Honnl, professional rock climber and founder of the Honl Foundation. I wanted to let you know about a brand new season of the Planet Visionaries podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. This is the podcast exploring bold ideas and big solutions from the people leading the way in conservation. Join me in conversation with the likes of climate champion Mark Ruffalo, biologist and photographer Christina Mittermeier, and one of the most successful conservationists of our time, Chris Tompkins. Join us on Planet Visionaries wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:32]
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- [01:01]
Mia Sorrenti
Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. For this episode, we're rejoining for part two of our recent live event with former British politician Sajid Javid. Javid joined us recently at the Shaw Theatre to discuss his memoir the Colour of Home and his experiences at the centre of British political life. He was in conversation with broadcaster Rita Lashar. If you haven't heard part one, we recommend jumping back an episode to get up to spe. Now let's rejoin the conversation live at the Shaw Theatre in London. A brief content warning for this episode. This discussion includes personal experiences of racism and discrimination and contains strong language, including racist and offensive terms.
- [01:51]
Interviewer
There are so many good stories. I'm going to jump ahead because I want to get through quite a lot more.
- [01:55]
Sajid Javid
You can't ask me all because they won't buy the book.
- [01:58]
Interviewer
We're not going to have time for them all. There's too many.
- [02:01]
Sajid Javid
Yeah, that's just one of the small ones. I told you there's a lot of better ones than that.
- [02:06]
Interviewer
Oh, you show extraordinary self belief and determination through your education. You make it to Exeter University where you thrive. I'm intrigued by one thing though. We're a similar age. I'm a little bit older than you. You join the Young Conservatives when. It has to be said, the brand was pretty toxic. There was the infamous hang Nelson Mandela T shirts and so on. I'm interested in that. Was it the outsider in you that made you join the Young Conservatives? Were you not aware of the reputation did you not care what drew you to that group at that time?
- [02:40]
Sajid Javid
Well, in fact for a while, by the way, I had a picture of Nelson Mandela on my wall. So it was I drive to university, Exeter University and by then obviously I was studying economics and politics. I was already interested in politics and I already felt like that was my political home. Why? It's mostly to do with economics, finance, business and it was something I had already. You started thinking about how it might sound odd to people for an 18 year old to think like this, but I used to think a lot about the economy and how it works and I wanted to really. I was studying, I'd read a lot and think about these things and I just thought that what the then Thatcher government was saying about whether it's privatization, free markets, less regulation and stuff sounded right to me intellectually and that's what I liked about it. And actually my first week at university, in the freshers week, I went and joined the Student Conservative association and I went to my first party conference the following year.
- [03:59]
Interviewer
And did you feel welcome?
- [04:01]
Sajid Javid
No, not really. I was the only non white face there and it did feel a bit odd. And you could see people sort of looking at you, some people a bit sort of thinking, shouldn't you be at the labor conference or something? It didn't put me off though. I don't know why it didn't put me off, it just didn't. I just, I just enjoyed the politics of it. But there were also, there was also politics around that I didn't like in the Conservative Party at the time. And a lot of it, most of it was to do with race type stuff. So you know, you mentioned like the hang Nelson Mandela stuff. I mean it's. There were people saying things, you know, stupid things like that and also I didn't agree with all the policy of the government. In fact I'll tell you a quick interesting story. The following year I also went to the conference which was 1990, I think I got the right year, 1990 and just before conference the Conservatives, the government had decided to join what was called the erm, the exchange rate mechanism. And I thought economically it was a really stupid decision and they had joined it just before conference and I had, with a friend of mine printed these leaflets that said erm, a fatal mistake and why Britain should not join and they should reverse the decision. And I was handing it out at the conference and two things happened. One thing was that this reporter working for the BBC comes up to me and says, would you like to do an interview on these leaflets and why you are against your government's policy. And I said, yeah, sure, of course I would. And his name was Jeremy Paxman and that was that. The first interview I ever did was with this guy called Jeremy Beginners.
- [05:48]
Interviewer
You mean to go on. I said.
- [05:51]
Sajid Javid
And then I went back to handing out the leaflets and then some party stewards came along and said, can you stop handing out these leaflets? And I said, yeah, but I just went around the corner, kept doing it and then they came around. They literally chucked me out the conference. They took my leaflets, pushed me out and said, don't come back in, it's Bournemouth or something. So I got chucked at a party conference for that as well. Can I tell you something interesting about Nelson Mandela since you mentioned it and the politics briefly go on.
- [06:18]
Interviewer
There's so much to talk about, but go on.
- [06:20]
Sajid Javid
I think people might like it because I know I talked about this publicly before, but I don't think there's any reason not to. Is at Exeter I used to go to the debating society and you're quite earnest, weren't you?
- [06:31]
Interviewer
I mean most people kind of. Well, I guess maybe perhaps you didn't drink, but most people drink a lot and kind of dance and stuff at university.
- [06:39]
Sajid Javid
But I didn't drink at university at all.
- [06:40]
Interviewer
Yeah, I see.
- [06:42]
Sajid Javid
But I went to debate society and because on this day there was a particular motion and it was that apartheid in South Africa is immoral. That was the motion and I went to support the motion, but they had invited a speaker against the motion, one John Burko. And he spoke in this. That's the first time I met John Burko and he came to spoke. He spoke at a debate side in exit in defense of apartheid. And I remember listening. I didn't know who he was at the time, but I knew he was a young conservative and he was a very active young conservative then in conservative circles. And he almost totally put me off the Conservative Party. He's standing there arguing about why apartheid is a good thing. But I want to. The reason I want to tell you this little story, fast forward like 25 years, 30 years later, I'm in parliament. John Burko is a speaker.
- [07:47]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [07:48]
Sajid Javid
Nelson Mandela has died that weekend and this is a Monday. And the parliament with the speaker calls rightly to suspend the session, have like a three hour debate, basically tributes to Nelson Mandela. And when the debate starts, John Burko stands up first to give his own. Loved the sound of his own voice. So he gets up and does his long. He ultimately takes up the whole time, it felt like it. Giving it. Talking about how he loved Nelson Mandela and how he's amazing and all of this. And then when I was sitting on the front bench, because I was on the front bench, I couldn't speak. It was the thing the Prime Minister was going to speak. But I came for the start of the debate, and as I walked out, went over to the speaker's chair, And I said, Mr. Speaker, you've come a long way since your days in Exeter, haven't you? And he said, oh, saajid, we don't want to talk about that.
- [08:45]
Interviewer
Right. Lots to get through. I want to talk about Laura, your wife, who I think is here, the love of your life. There is a very painful episode that you count in the book, persuading your parents, first of all, to accept Laura, but also you discover that they've arranged a marriage for you. Tell us a bit about that.
- [09:09]
Sajid Javid
So, yeah, so I met Laura when I was. I just finished my A levels, waiting for my results. I was doing a temping job at an insurance company in Bristol called Commercial Union, and Laura was already there doing a temping job. She was at university, and that's where we met. And interesting what had happened is that a friend of mine called Bob had told me about this opportunity and said, if you're looking for a summer job, this is the place to go. But he said, I can put a word in. So I was really interested in that. But then he says to me, this is over the phone, he said, sajid, if I get you this. Help you get this job. There's one thing he said. There's a girl here, didn't tell me who she was that's also temping and hands off. And I'm like, well, I'm not like some, you know, Romeo or something. I thought, you know, okay, fine, I'm not gonna. But he was really adamant that I'm not gonna make a move on this girl that he's got his eye on. I said, fine, I'm not gonna do that at all. Of course not. And so I get the job, remember? And then there were about 30 students that summer there, and there were men and women and stuff, so I didn't know who he was talking about. And on my first day, someone walks past me, and I really. I thought she was absolutely amazing and stunning. I was absolutely taken aback. And then I turned to my friend Bob, who was a couple of desks down, and I said, God, have you seen her? And he goes, what did I tell you? And I thought, oh shit.
- [10:47]
Interviewer
I mean, so I'm gonna jump ahead because there's much more to get through. But what, what was your parents reaction and what did you discover when you told me?
- [10:55]
Sajid Javid
Really interesting bits.
- [10:59]
Interviewer
There's quite a lot of interesting.
- [11:00]
Sajid Javid
Okay, they have to get the book to get all that.
- [11:02]
Interviewer
Yeah, they do. So, yeah. About discovering that your parents had arranged a marriage for you that you knew nothing about.
- [11:09]
Sajid Javid
Well, so what happened was that. So we met that summer, that would be in the summer of 1988. And already within a three or four months we were in a serious relationship. And then by the. So I just finished my first term at university. So it was December 88, I went back, I was back home, Bristol from. So I was at Exeter University, I was back home in Bristol. And I thought, you know what, I will tell my dad that I've met someone. And at that point I wasn't thinking I'm going to get married or anything. I just thought, it's a relationship, I'm just going to tell my dad. And I told him and he was, he listened and he just said, oh, that's interesting. And are you sure you want to be in a relationship? And didn't say much. The first time I told him that day I told him. And then a week or so later I'm back at university, start of a new term, and my dad calls me, or I used to call home, actually there were no mobile phones, used to call home every Sunday. And my mom says, dad wants to speak to you. And he said, I'm coming to see you next week. And my dad hadn't been to university at all to see me, so I thought, what's that about? He said, I need to talk to you about something. So he comes, comes into my dorm room, sits with me on my bed, and he said, son, I need to talk to you about something. And he said, this girl that you met, you know, I don't think, you know, you can have a relationship. But you said to me that that was it. I had said to him earlier, a couple of weeks earlier, that maybe one day we might get married, you know, and he said, you can't marry her. And I said, what do you mean? You know, I'm not Dad, I'm not engaged or anything. And he said, no, no, you just can't marry her. You just tell me you're not going to marry her. I said, no, look, I'm not. It's just a good relationship. Who knows, maybe one day I will. He goes, no, you can't. He just kept saying, you can't. And then I was getting quite upset with him. Like, what do you mean? Why do you keep saying that? And he said, because you're already engaged. And then I was pretty shocked that I was engaged.
- [13:10]
Interviewer
And you were engaged to a cousin. What did you feel about that?
- [13:14]
Sajid Javid
Well, at the time. Well, so then obviously the next obvious question. Well, the first was shock when someone tells you you're engaged and you don't know. I don't know if any of you had that, but. And then the next question, after I've sort of absorbed that first shock, is I said, to who? And he said, I can't tell you. I thought, this is brilliant. And so I thought, right, okay. So eventually I learn it's to a cousin, a cousin called Amina, a cousin that's very close to me, close to my family, lives in Leeds, daughter of my dad's sister that he was very close to. And it turns out that when Amina and I were similar age, and then we were both very young, maybe, I think when we were at 12, 13, the two parents, as in my dad and her mother, had promised each other that our children would get married. And they decided that and they just thought this was what was going to happen. And so this meant this whole arrangement that the parents had for Laura and I then to eventually, you know, to obviously, you know, we're married today and been married for 28 years.
- [14:34]
Interviewer
Better get that right.
- [14:37]
Sajid Javid
But at the time, I think anyone observing that, you would just think, there's no way these guys are ever gonna end up getting married.
- [14:44]
Interviewer
I mean, the Conservative MP Richard Holden's called for first current cousin marriage to be banned in the uk. I wonder what you make of that and whether perhaps it's something you might have tackled in office.
- [14:56]
Sajid Javid
I would support that ban, actually.
- [14:59]
Interviewer
Do you wish you'd done something about it when you were Health Secretary or Home Secretary? I'm not sure whose purview it would fall under.
- [15:05]
Sajid Javid
I think given the priorities I had at the time, like tackling Covid and stuff, I probably would have made that my priority. I think the country might think is a bit weird. If I sort of, you know, in the middle of lockdown.
- [15:18]
Interviewer
You would support it now?
- [15:20]
Sajid Javid
I would support it now. But more seriously, you mentioned when I was Health Secretary. One thing I will tell you is I remember very clearly a visit I made to Birmingham Children's Hospital. As Health Secretary, I went around the intensive care, the ICU unit, and it was with the consultant in charge on that day, British Pakistani doctor, consultant. And. And we walked around and I could notice this, but he also pointed it out and he told me something like 70% of the children in ICU were Asian kids, Pakistani origin, Asian kids, hugely disproportionate to the local population. And he said the number one reason is first cousin marriage. That is the reason. And he said to me that your government, a government shouldn't ban this. He said, this is a performance just on health grounds. And so I would support it both on health grounds. And I just don't think it's healthy for society. I can understand why in a village in Pakistan hundreds of years ago, 100 years ago, why people stay, wanted to stay close. And it's not just a Pakistani thing, it's an Indian thing as well. I can understand, you know, in that environment why that sort of happened when people felt you couldn't trust anyone else. But in a modern society where you've got to mix and have, you know, cohesive relationships across the board, I think it's very inward looking.
- [17:01]
Interviewer
Bit more about politics. What's it like when you get that call, we want you to be a Minister, we want you to be Business Secretary.
- [17:10]
Sajid Javid
So when I first became minister, my first ministerial role was actually a junior Treasury Minister.
- [17:20]
Interviewer
You were PPS to George Osborne as well, weren't you?
- [17:23]
Sajid Javid
Yeah, yeah. So what happened was that, I mean, so many political stories. I could tell you about how there was such a shock getting the PPS job. But, yeah, my first interest in role in government was PPS at George Osborne. And then about a year into that, there was a government reshuffle going on and I think it's 2012. Yes. And I got made Economic Secretary, Economic Secretary to the Treasury. I was like, I was thrilled. I'd only been in Parliament two years, suddenly I'm a minister in the treasury of all places. And I was really, really happy and. But there's something happened on that day that I'll never forget, which was I arrive in my department and the civil servants in what's called your private office, they welcome you and they turn to me and they say. They say Minister. And by. I love them saying Minister to me for the first time. And they said, minister, there's, you know, we're going to introduce, it's called like Reading In. They've prepared lots of documents for you and stuff to sort of absorb your brief. But they said, we've got an issue that today there's a delegation from Japan that is visiting and this Delegation, they've come obviously all the way from Japan and this their last day. And your predecessor was going to meet them this afternoon. And would you mind still doing the meeting even though you've just become minister? So I said, you know, fine, I'll do it, I'll wing it. But they said to help you, we will not send any old civil servant. We'll send the Permanent Secretary. He said he'll come with you, who's the top civil servant in the department. So I go along. It's Japanese delegation and it's a big long table. Japanese one side, British delegation the other. And they don't speak great English. So there's an interpreter. And we start off with introductions. The Permanent Secretary stands up and he introduces himself and he says, permanent Secretary. And that gets translated into typist. No hope of promotion. And then my reaction was like yours. And he's really embarrassed, sits down, tail between his legs. And now I stand up and I'm still sort of smiling as to what's just happened to him. And I stand up and I say, economic Secretary and that becomes cheap typist. So that was my first miniscule job.
- [19:56]
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Sajid Javid
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- [23:54]
Interviewer
Okay, I'm going to rattle through a few if we may, before we come to the audience. You backed Liz Truss for PM against Rishi Sunak. Why?
- [24:03]
Sajid Javid
Big mistake.
- [24:05]
Interviewer
Was there an anyone But Boris, biggest.
- [24:06]
Sajid Javid
Mistake I've made in Boston.
- [24:07]
Interviewer
Was there an anyone but Rishi campaign going on by the Boris campaign?
- [24:12]
Sajid Javid
Oh, by the Boris campaign.
- [24:13]
Interviewer
Boris backers. Sorry, by that stage. Or Boris friends.
- [24:15]
Sajid Javid
Yeah, but I don't think anyone accused me of being a Boris backer at that point.
- [24:19]
Interviewer
Well, so was it Boris then, perhaps running an anyone but Rishi campaign?
- [24:22]
Sajid Javid
I think there was an anyone but Rishi campaign going on. I should have backed Rishi and it's a complex set of reasons, but it was a big mistake. We list trust was obviously a huge disaster. Well, you could ask me about that.
- [24:37]
Interviewer
There's so much to ask you. I'm going to move on because I want to get to the audience. I want to ask you about a very specific thing that's happened this week. There's so many other things. I have a list of questions longer than my arm. Kemi Badenoch appears to be building, it seems to me, a reform adjacent platform. And. And in a recent speech, I think last week, she rejected the approach of Andy street, the former West Midlands mayor. Ruth Davidson, who is the head of the Conservatives in Scotland, who've launched a new group called Prosper within the Conservative Party for what they call the politically homeless, centrist and centre right voters. Is Kemi Badenoch potentially alienating a section of voters that are looking for a home, or is she right to say, actually the public are interested in what reform has to offer and therefore we should tack. Right.
- [25:26]
Sajid Javid
Yeah, I think it's not that straightforward. And what do I mean by that is that, first of all, I don't actually think Kemi is building a, to use your phrase, I think you said.
- [25:35]
Interviewer
Reform adjacent platform, cutting immigration opposition to net zero.
- [25:40]
Sajid Javid
Because I think that. Because Kemi has also said she would not do a deal with reform, she would not do a deal with Nigel Farage. She's been very clear what she thinks about Farage and obviously he is reform and she won't do a deal. And remember when she won her leadership election against Robert Jenrick, Robert Jenrick was clear that he might do a deal. Now, he's obviously done a different type of deal, but he was clear about that and she made it absolutely clear. Now, that said, obviously, she has to learn lessons as to why the Conservatives lost and why they lost so badly, and she's going to have to make some changes and some of those types of changes, for example, being tougher on immigration. She's already articulated and set policies around that. But you mentioned this new group, Prosper, who, by the way, the People, whether it's Andy Street, Ruth, these all great people, my friends as well, and they've got a ton to contribute. And what they're talking about, which is let's focus on more, on growth, on whether it's through lower taxes, less spending, more regulation. I think Kemi would agree with all of that.
- [26:52]
Interviewer
But I guess my question is, why would you pick the Conservatives if what you're really interested in is reform? How do you make sure that the Conservative Party has a distinct agenda from that of reform?
- [27:03]
Sajid Javid
I think that two things, I think, first of all that you want whatever one's views on the issue. I think most people would agree that one of the big biggest issues on the doorstep is immigration. It has become a bigger and bigger issue over the last few years, both because of the level of illegal migration and also the level of legal migration as well, which has also hit record highs. So I think all political parties will have to set out what they intend to do about that. And it's all of them are pushing the same direction, which is let's push both those levels of migration down.
- [27:48]
Interviewer
So you support the direction that Kemi is taking?
- [27:51]
Sajid Javid
I support the. So far, what she said, I support. I broadly support it. I do. I support her. I think that she inherited a very difficult situation. She's trying to make the best of it and only time will tell ultimately whether all of that works. But she is also, I think, setting out something that's very distinct from reform and from Labor.
- [28:13]
Interviewer
And just finally, Nadeem Zahawi, Robert Jenrick, most recently Suella Braverman. There's many others. What do you make of them? And the fact that they've defected to the Conservative Party. What does it say about the Conservative Party?
- [28:29]
Sajid Javid
Given a choice, you'd rather not see defections. But if someone feels that the Conservative Party is no longer their home.
- [28:36]
Mia Sorrenti
Reform.
- [28:37]
Sajid Javid
And in the case of the three people you just mentioned, they think it's reform, then it's better that they leave. It's much better that they leave than they stay within the Conservative Party and don't properly support it. And so what eventually comes of that, I don't know. But when I look forward to the next election, obviously still a while away, but reform will clearly be big player in that election and I think it will be faced by one other major party and that will be either the Conservatives or Labour. And for Labour, right now, obviously, there's so many problems and challenges, even look at today, some of the stuff that's happening that I think that Kemi's got All to play for.
- [29:23]
Interviewer
Quick fire round. Before I open it up to all of you. Saver or spender?
- [29:29]
Sajid Javid
Saver.
- [29:31]
Interviewer
We should ask the family what they think. FT or the Telegraph? Ft. Boris Johnson or Liz Truss.
- [29:38]
Sajid Javid
Oh, God, Boris is a lot more fun.
- [29:44]
Interviewer
And cricket or football?
- [29:47]
Sajid Javid
Cricket.
- [29:47]
Interviewer
Oh, there we go. Okay, look, I have so much more that I could keep asking. I'm going to open up to all of you. Please keep your questions brief. There are roving microphones. I think we're going to bring the lights up slightly so we can see you, because at the moment I can't up. Brilliant. I can now see you. Hello. Right, I'm going to go. There's some hands up at the back. Right up there on my left. Yes, on this side.
- [30:10]
Audience Member
Thank you. I've got views on whether we are a multiracial society because actually there's only one race and it's multiethnic. But I'm going to resist the temptation to get drawn on that. And my question is about poverty. So the Joseph Roundtree foundation report came out last week and there's 14.2 million people in this country living in poverty. And the Pakistani and Bangladeshi, the poverty rate is over 40% and it's not got any better for the last 20 years. Now, I think you're an exception in terms of someone who's come from a poor background, who's done as well as you have, and I just wonder, what are your views on what we need to do to address a persistent problem of poverty?
- [30:59]
Interviewer
Okay. And there's a gentleman at the back.
- [31:03]
Sajid Javid
So you are British or from Britain. The home in your book, I assume is Britain. But so much of your childhood was influenced by your Pakistani heritage. What's your relationship with Pakistan like now? Have you spent time there? Do you think you ever feel at home there? Or is it somewhere so far away for you?
- [31:24]
Interviewer
Go for it.
- [31:26]
Sajid Javid
Okay, maybe I'll just take that one first. In the other gentleman's question, would I feel at home there? Britain is my home and it's the only place I think I'd feel at home. So it's not a reflection on Pakistan or it's just more reflection on Britain, but it's a great question still in terms of what's from relationship. I would say although I feel British, I'm proud to be British, that Pakistan has a special place in my heart and always will because it was a birthplace of my parents. And also, and actually to link it back to this, just the gentleman just here, talk. Multi ethnic, multiracial gentleman earlier talked about multicultural. Despite what I've said earlier about Britain's multiracial society, I still think that is consistent with being a society where you welcome. The country welcomes aspects of different cultures because I think it enriches our culture. So I think it is perfectly compatible, 100% compatible, being British and British people still having different religions. They can go to churches or mosques or synagogues or temples, it doesn't matter. You can still be as British as each other. You can eat, you know, Pakistani food or Chinese food and it doesn't matter. You can wear a Pakistani national dress at a wedding in the UK and it's fine. It's still consistent with being British. So I think there are aspects of other cultures that have enriched our culture and there are obviously aspects of Pakistani culture that have done that. And it's still very much part of my own family, even with my. We talked earlier about. My wife is British, white British, my children are mixed race. But they would probably be the first to talk about aspects of their culture growing up in this country that are, that have Pakistani aspects to it. And so, yeah, I'd say Pakistan always will have a very special place in my heart. I'm proud my parents taught me the language, Punjabi language, not least because there's a secret code with my brothers. But it was. I'm proud that, you know, when I been to Pakistan, and I have been many times, that when I go to my parents village and lots of people, they won't speak English at all. I can communicate with them and talk to them and laugh with them and tell stories and hear their stories.
- [33:50]
Interviewer
They laugh at your accent.
- [33:52]
Sajid Javid
Yeah, they. I absolutely love my accent. Yeah, it's, it's.
- [33:56]
Interviewer
And just briefly because we are running out of time. The poverty.
- [33:59]
Sajid Javid
Yes. Yeah. And. And actually one thing, I'd say the Joseph Roundtree foundation does a lot of good work. I remember when I was in government seeing much of its work. So thank you certainly for your role in that, whether it's. You talked about Pakistanis, British Asians. I think we could also say something similar about British black people as well. Some of the challenges there, certainly the economic challenges. I've thought a lot about this and this thing work in government that I did around, especially when I, I was business secretary and community secretary. And I felt, first of all, there's no magic bullet here. And I'm sure you agree with that. There's just no easy answer to how do you get people out of poverty. For me, it's always the big thing has always been about an economy that's creating jobs. I think jobs is the only sustainable way out of poverty. I don't think it's lots of different types of welfare and stuff. I'm not saying, by the way, you're suggesting that. I just think it's jobs. And then the question then for me, how do you get. So first you need an economy that's growing and creating jobs and then how do you make sure that those job opportunities are for everyone and not just for certain types of people? You know, when I was growing up, I used to actually I used to feel that opportunity was for other people, not for me or not for my family. And I'm sure there's people that still feel like that today.
- [35:23]
Interviewer
Do you think a young saajid Javid, growing up today, it would be easier or harder for him to have the kind of success and the kind of career that you've had.
- [35:34]
Sajid Javid
Today? Easier? I think it would be easier.
- [35:40]
Interviewer
It's interesting, it's disagreement from the audience. Why do you think it would be easier?
- [35:43]
Sajid Javid
Can we do a show of hands.
- [35:45]
Interviewer
Who thinks it's easier? Oh, okay. And harder, probably easier wins, but just about.
- [35:55]
Sajid Javid
I respect people who think it's harder because we need to listen to that. And they are still, don't get me wrong, I think there's still huge challenges out there. But the simple. You asked me a question. If it's a yes, harder, easier question, I think it's in generally things have got easier.
- [36:12]
Interviewer
Well, there's so much more to talk about. I feel like we've barely scratched the surface. We are out of time. Thank you very much Savage Javid, for all those stories for that conversation.
- [36:29]
Mia Sorrenti
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Ginny Hooker and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings, become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership and to join us at future live events, you can head over to intelligentsquared.com attend to see our full live events program. You've been listening to Intelligent Squared. Thanks for joining us.
- [37:11]
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