Podcast Summary: Sotheby's Talks | How Do Objects Achieve Iconic Status

Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Episode: Sotheby's Talks | How Do Objects Achieve Iconic Status, with Grayson Perry and Xa (Zahr) Sturgis
Date: March 11, 2026
Guests: Grayson Perry (artist, writer), Xa Sturgis (director, Ashmolean Museum), Helena Newman (Sotheby’s)
Host: Moderator (Intelligence Squared/Sotheby's)

Episode Overview

This episode, recorded live as part of Sotheby’s Friday Lates for the launch of Icons: 100 Extraordinary Objects from Sotheby’s History, explores the mechanisms by which art and objects become "icons." The panel dissects what makes something iconic: intrinsic qualities, public narratives, market forces, and the role of collective consciousness. The discussion weaves through famous art objects, auction history, and the constructed nature of icons in culture and commerce, often with wit and skepticism.

Defining "Iconic"

Timestamps: 00:44–07:24

• The conversation opens by exploring the slippery, overused term "icon."
• Helena Newman: An icon is “instantly recognizable,” evokes “veneration,” carries a story (often scandalous or tragic), and is intertwined with market forces. (00:58)
• Grayson Perry: Sees “icon” as almost a cliche, often rendering real engagement impossible:

  “As soon as something becomes an icon, like say, the Mona Lisa, … I can’t see it as an aesthetic object anymore. The word icon kills any work of art form.” (01:49)

• Zahr Sturgis: Agrees the fate is ambivalent; icon status means “slipping the shackles of the object itself… having a different place in the world. Whether it’s a place you want to be is a valid question.” (02:22)
• Discussion on how institutions try to manufacture icons—whether by design or accident—versus “naturally” occurring icons, using a museum in Turkey’s attempt to enshrine a mosaic fragment as their “icon” (03:35).

Mechanisms and Market Forces Behind Iconization

Timestamps: 03:35–07:24

• Panelists discuss attempts—by museums, media, and markets—to create iconic objects to drive attention and visitation.
• Grayson Perry:

  “We live in the digital age… the internet has this process and it turns everything into a thing… it becomes a thing, it goes viral… and it kind of kills it.” (04:41)

  • Example: Sussex cliffs becoming a K-pop fan pilgrimage site.
  • Critique: Icons can lead people to lazily accept received wisdom rather than see for themselves (“That was the one, and… had a selfie in front of it”).
• Heatmaps & the Louvre Problem:
  Sturgis: Museums try to corral visitors around a few objects (Mona Lisa, Rosetta Stone), even to the detriment of broader collections (06:12). Perry: Jokes about the endless search for “the real one” in places with multiple copies, e.g., Guadalupe shrine (07:07).

Object Case Studies: Artworks as Icons

The Scream by Edvard Munch

Timestamps: 08:34–10:22

• Sturgis: Calls The Scream the only “bona fide icon” under discussion; it transcends any single version or object.

  “None of them are quite the Scream in our minds. Because… the Scream is more than this image. Is there another artwork that is also an emoji?” (08:34)

  • Its crime history (stolen twice) and meme/emoji status reinforce its place in pop culture.

Raphael’s Head of a Young Apostle

Timestamps: 10:22–12:49

• Chosen because it's not an icon, despite being “perhaps the greatest Italian Renaissance drawing to come to market for decades” (11:54).
• Raises issue of subjectivity in art valuation.
• Perry:

  “It’s all about subjectivity.” (12:17)
  Skeptical of claims to sublimity.

Stradivarius Messiah Violin

Timestamps: 12:56–15:41

• Newman: Society recognizes “Strad” as synonymous with "famous violin," partly due to rarity, story, and mystery (theories about unique varnish). (12:56)
• The Messiah violin’s special status is tied to preservation and the fact it’s barely ever been played—its mystique itself is iconic.

U.S. Constitution First Printed Edition

Timestamps: 15:41–16:57

• Sold for $43 million; notable for its ongoing “living” influence.
• Newman highlights its contemporary relevance, especially during the crypto-craze when a DAO (decentralized group) bid for it.

Georges Seurat, Sunday Afternoon (La Grande Jatte)

Timestamps: 17:04–18:51

• Sturgis:

  “You can recognize it by its profile. Those pictures that… slip the bounds of the museum are… graphically sort of straightforward.” (17:15)

• Perry:

  “A big part of what we find beautiful is familiarity.” (18:07)

Van Gogh’s Irises

Timestamps: 18:56–20:59

• Became iconic due to story: record-breaking sale, subsequent scandal involving Sotheby’s financing, and its journey to the Getty.
• Perry:

  “It’s iconic of shenanigans in the sale room. But… as a Van Gogh, it’s not in their top 10.” (20:30)

Picasso Selections

Timestamps: 21:10–24:38

• Newman: Chose a youthful self-portrait (early Picasso, not immediately “iconic”) and then the “Garçon à la pipe” (more iconic due to market history and the transformation conferred by Picasso’s painterly additions).
• Perry:

  “He makes it into a king or a saint or something. … It has a more iconic quality, literally, in the proper sense of the word.” (23:30)

Klimt

Timestamps: 24:29–27:26

• Iconicity through stylistic repetition and rarity.
• Klimt’s instantly recognizable “signature style” contributes massively to market value and public identification.
• Perry:

  “I’m always slightly kind of suspicious of artists who sort of bang out the same artwork again and again… but if you can tick all the boxes by doing an icon looking work and you become an icon and then you bang out a load of paintings that look vaguely similar, you’re in icon heaven.” (25:51)

Magritte’s “Ceci n’est pas une pipe”

Timestamps: 27:35–30:17

• Explored for its conceptual playfulness and graphic reproducibility.
• Perry:

  “An icon to make middle class people feel clever… it’s like an advert for sixth form philosophy.” (29:19)

• Newman: Highlights the self-referential, iterative aspect of icon-making as Magritte revisited his own work.

Grayson Perry’s Contrarian Choices (and Love-Hate Relationship with Icons)

Timestamps: 30:25–38:31

• Perry chooses four pieces: “two of them I hate, and two of them I like.” (30:29)
• Kahlo: Once a personal favorite, now so thoroughly iconized that “the pleasure in the work drain[ed] out of me because I’m such a snob.” (32:34)
• Perry links personal biography to a distaste for cliches, making him phobic of "iconic" works (33:35).
• Norman Rockwell’s Rosie the Riveter: Embraces its skill and populist impact, appreciating its use for feminist and political purposes (34:12).
• Calder (early work): Chosen for freshness—admired because it isn’t (yet) an icon, and doesn’t look like a “typical Calder.” (35:26)
• Rothko/Abstract Expressionism: Parodies the reverence and machismo around AbEx;

  “Paint fetishism tainted with machismo… Rothko is the patron saint of it, really.” (37:17)
  Perry rails against the over-privileged status of painting: “Just stop oil painting.” (37:24, 38:31)

Fame, Reproducibility, and the Power of Story

Warhol’s Marilyn Diptych

Timestamps: 38:37–39:17

• Described as possibly the “most iconic artwork in the book.”
• Perry:

  “Got a gold background, it’s of a goddess, and it’s painted by a devout Catholic.” (38:56)

• Recognized for its conscious creation of an icon of icons.

Jackie Kennedy’s Faux Pearls

Timestamps: 39:17–41:59

• Sold for $200,000 (estimate $5–700), then mass-reproduced for millions.
• Perry: Maps this onto religious relics: first-degree (body) and second-degree (objects touched by the saint), suggesting these are “second level relics.”

  “We live in a world that is shaped by our religious instincts. Art galleries are basically temples.” (41:18)

Maurizio Cattelan’s “Comedian” (Banana)

Timestamps: 42:06–44:14

• Sold for $6 million—a conceptual artwork with fame driven by price and controversy.
• Panel questions its lasting value:

  “It becomes [iconic] simply because someone bought it for $6 million. Without that fact, it wouldn’t be any sort of icon at all.” —Zahr Sturgis (43:45) “It was a stunt.” —Perry (43:00)

Enduring vs. Fading Icons

Timestamps: 44:14–44:32

• Panel closes by noting some icons endure while others fade—“sometimes they do fade away.”
• On unsold or depreciating icons:

  “Do you ever do stuff about negative equity in the artwork world?” —Grayson Perry (44:21) “There are all sorts of tried and tested euphemisms, like it may be best to hold on to it for now.” —Helena Newman (44:26)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Iconicity and Cliché:

• “As soon as something becomes an icon... the word icon kills any work of art form.” —Grayson Perry (01:49)

On Social/Market Forces:

• “It’s like being a brand. It saves people having to make a judgment with their own eyes.” —Grayson Perry (04:41)

On Reproducibility and Fame:

• “Most people, even though they’re fantastically familiar with the image, have not ever seen it except in Ferris Bueller’s Day off or in reproduction.” —Xa Sturgis, on Seurat (18:22)

On Subjectivity:

• “It’s all about subjectivity… the collective opinion over time of curators that gives status.” —Grayson Perry (12:17)

On Icons as Relics:

• “Art galleries are basically temples. You make a pilgrimage… These are absolutely fundamental to being human—religion… is almost part of evolution.” —Grayson Perry (41:18)

Key Themes & Takeaways

• Icons are constructed: Fame, market forces, and storytelling are as crucial as intrinsic quality.
• Danger & ambivalence: Iconic status can rob objects of serious, personal engagement—turning them into tourist destinations or cliches.
• Reproducibility: The image, not the object itself, often becomes iconic—aided by mass media and marketing.
• Market power: Scandal, theft, and record prices often play a greater role than aesthetic quality in cementing icons.
• Religious parallels: The veneration of objects (and their reproductions) echoes the rituals and instincts of religious relic worship.
• Not all icons are lasting: Some fade, others endure; subjectivity is crucial.

Quick Segment-Index

• 00:44–07:24: Defining "icon" and the problem of overuse
• 08:34–10:22: The Scream and the nature of icons
• 10:37–12:49: Raphael, subjectivity in judging greatness
• 12:56–15:41: Stradivarius, myth, and the allure of the unattainable
• 15:41–16:57: U.S. Constitution as living, iconic document
• 18:56–20:59: Van Gogh's Irises; market and scandal
• 21:10–24:38: Picasso's transformation into icon
• 24:29–27:26: Klimt and the manufacturing of an icon
• 27:35–30:17: Magritte, philosophy, and the icon as a meme
• 30:25–38:31: Perry's anti-icons, icon fatigue, and cultural snobbery
• 38:37–39:17: Warhol/Marilyn and meta-iconicity
• 39:17–41:59: Jackie O, relics, and pop-culture veneration
• 42:06–44:14: Cattelan's banana, value, and the fleeting nature of icons

In Short

This lively, irreverent debate provides a nuanced take on what gives objects “iconic” status in art and culture. It interrogates the intersection of image, story, commerce, and collective longing, with skepticism about the value, impact, and constructed nature of iconhood in the modern world. The panelists’ humor and candor bring depth, challenging the audience to see beyond the surface of fame, form, and fortune.