The 12 Books of Christmas | Jordan Stephens on Love, Chaos and Becoming a Man

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Intelligence Squared – The 12 Books of Christmas

Guest: Jordan Stephens
Host: Intelligence Squared (with comedian Munya Chawawa as interviewer)
Date: December 18, 2024
Episode: Jordan Stephens on Love, Chaos and Becoming a Man

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Overview

In this festive episode, Intelligence Squared spotlights Jordan Stephens—musician, actor, and now author of the memoir Avoidance, Drugs, Heartbreak and Dogs. Hosted in conversation with comedian Munya Chawawa, the discussion journeys through Stephens’ turbulent youth, reputation as one half of Rizzle Kicks, complex relationships, battles with addiction and masculinity, and the process of self-inquiry and healing. With warmth, wit, and unflinching honesty, the pair explore social taboos, generational struggle, and the lifelong quest to become a better man.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact and Experience of Publishing a Memoir

[06:11]

• Stephens’ Reaction to Publishing:
  “It’s an incredible feeling. I can’t even really compute it, but I am so proud of myself for doing it... My intention with this is to create something that will exist after I die. For sure. That has to be the dream.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 06:11)
• Reflections on Artistic Legacy: Stephens expresses his surprise and pride at seeing an audience gathered to discuss his life and work, considering it a significant personal achievement in facing self-criticism and leaving something behind.
• Celebration: Instead of typical post-publication partying, he celebrated by eating an enormous croissant—a humorous anecdote highlighting his commitment to sobriety.
  “Straight edge means massive croissant.” (Paraphrased)

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2. Procrastination and the ADHD Experience

[09:46]

• Navigating Focus and Creative Block: Stephens openly discusses the process of writing with ADHD—falling into YouTube “wormholes,” researching “random court cases,” and the pressure to always be productive.
• Self-Acceptance:
  “Nowadays it seems like [ADHD] is a hot-button topic because the existence we all live in crosses over with the symptoms... I don’t think anybody can pay attention.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 10:35)
• Routine and Resistance: Candidly admits many chapters were written just before bed, in windows where willpower had faded.

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3. Moral Ambiguity and Storytelling

[13:00]

• Addressing Cheating and Moral Complexity: Stephens does not seek to justify his past infidelity but aims to “exist in a space of moral ambiguity, and... accept and attempt to integrate a shadow self or darker side.”
• The Universal Experience of Betrayal: He points to the need for honest discussion, referencing the work of Esther Perel and the lack of societal narratives that allow cheaters to explain, heal, or change.
  • “Anybody who’s ever cheated in the history of mankind has watched Esther Perel talk on YouTube.” (Jordan Stephens, 14:01)
  • Describes the Internet’s cold responses to those seeking redemption: “The first response on a Reddit thread was, ‘You’ve just ruined someone’s life.’ Sweet. All right.”

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4. Drugs, Escapism, and Psychedelic Insight

[16:38] – [32:42]

• Substance Use as Escape: Drugs, especially alcohol and cocaine, entered Stephens’ life through a craving for acceptance and belonging.
• Duality of Substances: While cocaine and alcohol were destructive (“alcohol is a piece of shit”—28:17), he credits psychedelic experiences (notably DMT) with profound, positive impacts:
  • “DMT is not a drug. Sorry. DMT in my eyes is a medicine.” (Jordan Stephens, 24:16)
  • Shares transformative experiences of “leaving his body... in a suspended state of bliss,” helping him see arguments and division as “nothingness.” (29:34)
• Cultural Critique:
  “If they’re really serious about stopping searches, they’d go into Soho, turn people over in a suit. They’d find about 75 grams of cocaine every night. [...] And they would have found me in 2015.”
  (27:13)
• Sustaining Recovery: Six years sober, Stephens acknowledges lifelong vigilance is required, swapping damaging compulsions for less harmful ones (“stuffing my face with croissants,” “Call of Duty”).

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5. Masculinity, Love, and Relationship Education

[36:45] – [43:00]

• First Kisses and Gender Expectations: Both host and guest share awkward first kiss stories, segueing into pressures placed on men to perform and the pitfalls of “toxic masculinity.”
• Rejecting ‘Toxic Masculinity’ Terminology:
  “I worry that something like toxic masculinity is becoming meshed with masculinity now. And I don’t want any boys to ever feel like they’re just waiting to become toxic or their very being is toxic. That scares me.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 41:22)
• Championing Healthy Role Models: Observes the rise of the ‘manosphere’ and figures like Andrew Tate, advocating for nurturing healthy, self-loving masculinity instead of reactionary or hyper-masculine identities.

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6. The Role of Time, Pain, and Emotional Education

[43:00] – [46:46]

• Dangers of ‘Too Much Time’: Post-fame, time and money created space for suppressed grief and existential struggle.
• Need for Relationship Education: Stephens notes the lack of social structures to teach emotional coping and relationship skills, leading him to seek workshops and retreats.
  • “Why are we not all at relationship workshops? Because in school... wouldn’t that make more sense?” (Jordan Stephens, 44:27)
• Lessons on Pain:
  “No one tells you that [pain] fades and flashes. You gotta ride the flashes, and then it does go.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 45:41)

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7. Music as Escape and Healing

[47:54]

• Family and Musical Roots: Stephens describes his parents—particularly his mother—as formative influences on his creative expression.
• Early Ambitions: Humorously recounts emulating Sisqó (even dying his hair silver at age seven) and how performance offered validation and release.
  • “Cisco is my gateway drug.” (Jordan Stephens, 47:22)
  • “Long story short, the curtains shut. And I came back out of the curtains and started clapping the crowd. So the dragon had been unleashed.” (Jordan Stephens, 50:36)

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8. Family, Intergenerational Trauma, and Fatherhood

[51:00] – [55:46]

• Stephens navigates the delicate act of writing about his parents, aiming for “raw as possible” honesty while respecting their privacy.
• On Generational Healing:
  “All I can do right now is make sure I look after myself and I make sure that I keep myself in as decent space as possible. And that includes allowing myself to be a fucking human being and make mistakes...” (Jordan Stephens, 54:32)
• Future Aspirations: Shares desire to be a good father, acknowledging he won’t be perfect but can continue to heal and break cycles.
  • “I want to be a good dad. And I know that I’m not going to be a perfect dad. And that should be good—as long as the kid supports Arsenal.” (Jordan Stephens, 55:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lasting Art:
  “My intention with this is to create something that will exist after I die. For sure. That has to be the dream.” (06:11)

• On Cheating and Moral Conversations:
  “The idea of the book is to exist in a space of moral ambiguity, and my actions run parallel with my own duality.” (13:00)

• On Drug Culture:
  “No one would be doing coke if they weren’t drunk. Who do you know is like, ‘Let me start with a line of coke’?” (27:26)

• On Masculinity:
  “I want young men and boys to feel beautiful and wonderful and proud of the fact that they’re boys... I worry that something like toxic masculinity is becoming meshed with masculinity now.” (41:21)

• On Processing Pain:
  “The biggest lesson for me personally with pain... No one tells you that it fades. No one tells you that it flashes. And you just gotta wait.” (45:41)

• On Intergenerational Trauma:
  “All I can do right now is make sure I look after myself... and that includes allowing myself to be a fucking human being and make mistakes.” (54:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Art & Legacy, Feelings on Book Release: [06:11]
• Writing Process, Procrastination & ADHD: [09:46]
• Infidelity & Seeking Empathy: [13:00]
• Substance Use, DMT & Recovery Insights: [16:38] – [32:42]
• Masculinity, First Kisses & Social Pressures: [36:45] – [43:00]
• Emotional Pain, Relationship Education: [43:00] – [46:46]
• Music & Validation: [47:54]
• Family, Healing, and Fatherhood Aspirations: [51:00] – [55:46]

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Conclusion

This episode of Intelligence Squared offers a candid, often profound look at the messiness of growth, addiction, love, and what it means to become a man in the 21st century. Jordan Stephens’s voice is by turns hilarious, vulnerable, critical, and always seeking—offering not prescriptions, but an honest invitation to interrogate our own stories. For anyone grappling with masculinity, addiction, or simply the desire to be “good enough,” Stephens’ journey is moving, relatable, and often unexpectedly uplifting.

Transcript

[Conor Boyle]

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[Host/Interviewer]

I'm NFL linebacker TJ Watt and this is my personal best. YPB by Abercrombie is the activewear I'm wearing. That's why I reached out to co.

[Jordan Stevens]

Design their latest drop.

[Host/Interviewer]

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[Conor Boyle]

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm head of Programming Conor Boyle. We're looking back at some of our favorite books of the year in our 12 books of Christmas. Today's episode is with musician and writer Jordan Stevens. Stevens joined us alongside comedian Monye Chihuahua to discuss his youth, the band Rizzle kicks, relationships and modern masculinity themes from his memoir Avoidance Drugs, Heartbreaking Dogs. Let's go to the episode now.

[Host/Interviewer]

Hey, how we doing everyone? We good? All right, just to clarify, I am the host for this conversation. Okay. This isn't the JLS tribute act. Has everyone read the book? Right, this guy in the front with the guns out. What's your name? Nat. Okay. Do you read the book? Get out. Let's see who else we got striped top. Yeah, yeah. Looking away with the glasses. You read the book? Oh, yeah, Actually there's a few of you. The glasses. Sorry. This is the visually impaired side of the crowd. Okay, forget that. Okay. Cardigan, crochet, game on fire. Have you read the book? Okay, right, listen, all I'm saying is I'm not judging you. God is right. So, everyone, thank you so much for coming out. I'm so excited to talk to Jordan. I think Jordan is a great man. He's really smart, he's very kind. He has a lot of love to give to the world. And I think when you read the book, you get a sense of that. Jordan, if you don't know, is now an author. He's an actor, he's a musician. He's had five UK top tens. He was in Star Wars Rogue One. And I think his biggest achievement was actually being featured on the Shaun the Sheep the movie soundtrack. So would you please put your hands together for Jordan Stevens?

[Jordan Stevens]

Keep it going, Keep it going. Oh, wow. Yo, wow. You're not wrong about Sean the Sheep, dude.

[Host/Interviewer]

That completely slipped my radar. That should be literally top of the.

[Jordan Stevens]

LinkedIn when we got an email saying, do you want to be part of an Aardman creation? We're like 1,000%.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, man.

[Jordan Stevens]

That's British legacy right there, dude.

[Host/Interviewer]

100%. And also, I used to eat play doh. So that has a special. That's a special connection for me also.

[Jordan Stevens]

You'll appreciate this in that Shauna Sheep soundtrack. I say something like, you can count on him, but don't fall asleep.

[Host/Interviewer]

Bars, ladies and gentlemen. That's what we call bars.

[Jordan Stevens]

No, no. Bars, bro.

[Host/Interviewer]

Get me in Rizzle Kicks right now, bro. What's the other guy's name?

[Jordan Stevens]

Harley, bro.

[Host/Interviewer]

Drop Harley. Get me in Rizzle Kicks right now. Listen.

[Jordan Stevens]

But I'm thinking that there is literally no other context in which I can drop a sheep related bar like that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Do we have to talk about the book or should we just.

[Jordan Stevens]

I think we can stick on Shauna Sheep for a little bit, but.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, so. Right. The book. Okay. I keep getting the name confused, but I know it's avoidance, drugs, heartbreak and dogs.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

ADH and D. Okay.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

So I guess the first question is, well, how do you feel? I guess, and I know everyone would have asked you this, but we were discussing a quote before the show, and I don't know who who this quote came from. Probably I Spice. And it is the two most valuable things you could leave on earth are a life or art. Right. And you know, I, as somebody who creates something, I know that you're probably very self critical. Maybe you're not maybe a super self celebrated.

[Jordan Stevens]

Very, very self critical.

[Host/Interviewer]

However, how do you feel the fact that you made this?

[Jordan Stevens]

I'm like, I just really can't get over to everyone's here. I think just to give it an idea of like why this is so trippy for me is during the time in this book, I know this book literally Muny was one dev one up. It came out like fucking five days ago. I didn't expect it to read it. But during the time that I'm exploring in this book, I actually went to an Intelligence Squared event. I didn't include that in the book, but a friend of mine took me to Intelligent Squared to see an author talk about their book and that author coincidentally ended up helping me write my book after me writing something for the Guardian. But that event was like the, one of the first times in my life where I really thought, whoa, I would love to, you know, write a book and have people come and see me talk about it, I guess, in a way. And so it's tripped out because then I went through all that shit and I wrote a book and everyone's fucking here, like at Intelligence Squared. So it's an incredible feeling. I thank you all so much for coming. I can't even really compute it, but I am so proud of myself for doing it, which is a big thing for me to say because I am critical of myself and I struggle to self self validate, but it's quite difficult. Even my most talented, nasty, creative voice in my head struggles to argue with me. Having written a whole book, I think like it's reached its limits of like, how do I make Jordan feel about this? I fucking can't, man. It's like a whole book, like 73,000 words. Like, well done. So yeah, I'm glad. And you know, I do think that with your quote from the beginning, I do consider that a lot ice spices. I spice profound philosopher. I spice. My intention with this is to create something that will exist after I die. For sure. That has to be the dream. Whether or not it happens is another thing. But that's the beauty of words, of writing, you know, like you can read a sentence that was written 100 years ago and feel as though you're in that moment. That is a fucking magic, you know, so that is of course the goal.

[Host/Interviewer]

So, yeah, well, dude, like I said, it's a huge achievement just to leave art, I think. But can you tell the Story of what you consumed to celebrate. Because we know you're straight edge.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

So what do you do to celebrate such a massive achievement? You eat a massive croissant. Now, we're not just talking. This wasn't like your average croissant. Show them how big it was.

[Jordan Stevens]

It was gone. No.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jordan Stevens]

You want me to show them?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now the croissant.

[Jordan Stevens]

So I wish.

[Host/Interviewer]

Was it the one?

[Jordan Stevens]

Actually, no, I don't. Because that is an unfortunate gender conformant. That is a social norm. I stand against Average, average, average, responsibly sized dick. Energy, bro. Some people were irresponsible dicks. And man, it's. Yeah. Making point.

[Host/Interviewer]

What are we like. All right, let's get into it. So I've read the book. I went through it with the highlighter and I'm just going to ask the stuff that sort of really stuck out in my mind and hopefully it crosses over with some of the stuff other people were thinking. I guess there's a sort of. Everyone in these interviews is asking you, what's it like to write a book? This, that and the other. That's sort of the base layer question. I actually would love to know what were some of the weirdest things you did to procrastinate? Because when you're trying to make a work of art, sometimes procrastination is part of the brain's way of thinking. What to do next. Did you find yourself down any weird YouTube wormholes? Where did you go? Listen, hey, I know Louis Theroux is looking for a replacement. I think I'm doing a pretty good job, dude.

[Jordan Stevens]

What? A hundred percent. Like, so, you know, there's resistance. For me, I found there was resistance when writing a lot of the time. If I have a lot of time, hours and hours, I'll go to write, and then I think I could do this instead or do that or. And it is surprising how many urges there are that. Look, I'm always going down YouTube holes for sure. Let's just put that out of the way. I'm always. I'm fascinated of YouTube. I will spend hours, you know, just figuring things out, researching random court cases. I don't know what's going on. And so, yeah, of course. And then I'll realize that I should be on it, but I had to embrace that side of me, you know, Like, I have, of course, been twice diagnosed with adhd, but nowadays it seems like this hot button topic because I think the existence we all live in crosses over with the symptoms of adhd. So, you know, so often. So people are wanting to get this diagnosis now because just the nature of existence now is so instant and reward based that people are like, fuck, maybe I can't pay attention. I don't think anybody can pay attention. So, yeah, that pressure to remain focused was. Was heavy. And yeah, I would. I actually ended up just embracing it. You know, I do need sometimes five, six hours, four hours of, you know, like kind of I don't know what. And then eventually I'll hit a sweet spot. And then other times, that time pressured a lot of the book I wrote an hour before I fell asleep. For months, it was just before bed, I would just hit like two pages. I don't know why I've never been able to do it since.

[Host/Interviewer]

I mean, maybe that's your. Your mind when it sort of stuff. So exhausted of willpower. Well, they call it willpower depletion, where you start off with this jug full of water, and then every decision you make across the day depletes your willpower such that probably by the end of the day, your mind was maybe freer than it was at the start when you've got all that pressure on you. All right, okay. I thought that was a really great theory, actually.

[Jordan Stevens]

That's deep. So I agree.

[Host/Interviewer]

Some people in here haven't read the book. Zac Efron in the front row.

[Jordan Stevens]

It was four days, like, okay, slight. Literally came out, like last night.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, well, there's audible. All right, you don't have to read it. You can listen to it. So I'll try and give a picture of the book without spoiling anything. But for me, anyway, it was the story of a man and his addiction, you know, his heartbreak, lots of the unresolved masculinity that he'd been grappling with.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Involves family, involves friendship, finding new love. And what I really struggled with within the book was that essentially it felt like because somebody I know recently, a friend of mine, cheated. Obviously within this book there is the story of cheating. And because of the stories we hear about your life and all the context we're given, ultimately I think the cheetah ends up absolved in a way. Right. Because we get to love the person behind the act in your book. So the question I'm leading to is, you know, that was obviously something people might have felt towards the end. Oh, you know, maybe I empathize by doubt. That was your main goal for the book. So I suppose, what did you write the book for?

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And does that balance out people getting to the end of the book? And going, oh, actually, I forgive him for cheating. Because you're. That's not what you're looking to justify, is it?

[Jordan Stevens]

No, not at all. The idea of the book is to. Is to exist in a space of moral ambiguity, and my actions run parallel with my own duality. Much of the book is me accepting and attempting to integrate a, you know, I don't know, shadow self or darker side of myself that if not looked at, if not loved, if not appreciated, will act out. That's how I ended up looking at it, you know, And I thought it was important to write a book where, you know, I'm coming to terms with betrayal and infidelity, but because for whatever reason in society, you know, of course, having been through that side of it, I've been on both sides. I was cheated on when I was younger, but it's a little more serious when you're older. Being the cheater is so painfully black and white, the discussion around it. Anybody who's ever cheated in the history of mankind has watched Esther perel talk on YouTube, by the way. And Esther Perel is like, she's a. For those who don't know who. Pretending they don't know, who is she?

[Host/Interviewer]

She is like a YouTuber or something.

[Jordan Stevens]

Sees a relationship therapist, French woman. She had a TED Talk that went viral because she saw. And the TED Talk is called why Happy People Cheat. Any show on television that's ever referenced cheating literally referenced Esther Perel. I hate Susie, Billie Piper talking about cheating. Esther Perel. Like, everybody will talk about Esther Perel because it's the only. She's like, the only glimmer of hope in a space where everybody tells you you're a piece of shit. Like, every. Every idea. Once a cheat, always a cheat. I lit in the book, right? For those of you who haven't got there yet. Sorry, this little spoiler. I. When dealing with the guilt and regret of having cheated, I Googled, you know, like, can you ever get somebody back after cheating? And the first response on a Reddit thread was, first thing you need to know is you've just ruined someone's life. I was like, sweet, all right, so. And. But, you know, I think I was enticed by the reality that the conversation doesn't happen that often. And also, just the side of me that wants to kind of untangle life and see the patterns within it or, like, understand the inner workings of it. I think to myself, surely people aren't dealing with it in a way that is congruent to, like, a happier way of Being like a lot of people are carrying trauma from that into another relationship. Whether they have done it or they have received that betrayal is being carried and it's not being dealt with because it's got this black and white good, bad element to it. So again, I'm not trying to assign any moral label. It's just that this is an existence. This is the inner workings of it. This is having someone who is this chi. This is why I felt I acted like that. And this is how I've dealt with it. And, you know, I'd like to believe that my existence from this point is proof that those things can change and you can make healthier choices. And often it's not what you think it is. That's really it. And also the other part of it is I told the truth. I took a little long to do it, but I did told the truth. And that was another interesting part of it. In this conversation, you hear people talk about cheating. They say, you know, if they. If someone cheated on them, they definitely want to know. I read that online. But then equally, the same amount of people said that if they cheated, they'd never say so. People think that telling people that you've cheated is a selfish act. There's just so much. It's just interesting. I don't think. I don't have any answers. It's just like this happens to everybody. Since the dawn of love, the dawn of time, this has happened. It's happened continuously. Let's have a healthy conversation about it to make sure we don't hurt each other anymore and we can commit more effectively. And I know it feels good to do that 100%.

[Host/Interviewer]

And I think also it's really interesting to use the taboo to travel through into all of the themes which you cover in the book.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Obviously drugs is a huge part of this story. And ultimately I think for me, from when I read the book, it was coming from a place of often escapism, but also I just want to be liked. I want to be accepted and I want approval and I want access into certain chambers where, you know, the drugs are going to take me. Can definitely hard relate to, you know, to doing some of that stuff.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

So before we talk about the drugs, what I did want to ask you was, did you go through any. This is way before the book, maybe even did you go through any, like fashion phases or any things that you did in desperation to be liked that you look back at now and think, oh my God, how did I do that? Because I had a mohawk bro so the bar is.

[Jordan Stevens]

You had a mohawk.

[Host/Interviewer]

I had a mohawk. Don't Google it. Don't Google it. Phones are not allowed in church. I'll be watching every single one of you.

[Jordan Stevens]

I mean, did I make any fast choices to be. No, I think, I think fashion choices.

[Host/Interviewer]

I mean, I'd like my cringeworthy. Aside from. What do you. What do you do for approval?

[Jordan Stevens]

Aside from the hardship, you know, make a duo of my best friend and sell a million records.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, we get it. Jordan. You were always cool. Fine, okay, whatever.

[Jordan Stevens]

That's not all right. Don't be silly. Don't be silly. That is like. That is a sad reality that you have to live in. That again, duality from your point of view, from the perception, from a metric we can measure. That's cool. But I'm saying I have thrown myself into the. Into the spiky. The spiky arms of like a crunching industry because I wanted to be the center of attention. I want, you know, that's the only way I know how to communicate. Like, here's something I did that's good. Tell me that's good so I can feel good about myself like that. Really and truly. I know it's annoying to say because it's not like this idea that we're fed. It's not the best. It's not the best. It's not the best way to go about life. Some people who are famous don't feel like that. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what your. How you feel about validation or being able to self validate. But you know, the worst, the worst time in my life creatively was after the second Rizzle Kicks album. This is before this happened in this book. And we had had a great first album, obviously went platinum, which is like my life dream. But obviously I didn't think about that. I just wondered how I can get another platinum album, which is ridiculous. Second album did well by album standards. By Rizzle Kick standards, it didn't do as well. And because of that, there was an added pressure. I promise you right now, the music I made in the four months after the label told me that we hadn't done as well as the first was the worst fucking music I've ever made in my life. And one day I'll send the music out just for Banner because it was me going, how do I make a hit? Like, how do we claw? I didn't even want to be a pop star. And suddenly I'm trying to maintain, I'm trying to Fight against, like, fucking, I don't know, like, random boy bands and shit. Like, I don't know what's going on. I'm trying to. I'm trying to compete. And I'd lost myself entirely, you know what I mean? And it was. It's these. It's these feelings of loss that, like, I'm trying to. Trying to compete with, you know.

[Host/Interviewer]

Was the book in any way sort of therapy in preparation for the return of Rizzle Cakes?

[Jordan Stevens]

Perhaps the book is a point. The book, like, encapsulates the choices I had to make to get myself to a healthy space and meet Harley in this new world. This new world, being, like, being an adult because. Because it was like, seven years, Harley's father, two children, and, like, I can't explain to you how incredible it's been to watch one of the people I love the most in the world just be an incredible dad in the wake of, you know, he had his. He has his own, you know, complex history, and I'm looking at boys and men in my own journey, and I'm like, this is so beautiful that he's doing this. Meanwhile, I've gone sober, six years sober, you know, and I've made healthy choices. I've met an incredible woman and. And I'm feeling things I've never felt before. And then we've both turned to each other and been like, you want to make some alternative hip hop?

[Host/Interviewer]

And the market's pretty, pretty dry at the moment. I mean, these two lads got back together. Oasis, they're not real rasters. I know what they're on about.

[Jordan Stevens]

He just says it all the time. But also, again, this is maybe a little. Sours the tone slightly, but in. In reality, I remember the. The worst way I tried to fit in was, you know, in the initial, like, honeymoon stage with my ex. I remember the mad thing about that kind of connection where it's not particularly healthy. It's just this whirlwind of just codependency. I just. The. The. The things we're willing to accept about each other just don't match up. They don't line up. And I would just mold and shift myself in order to be a pallet of, like, a version that would be accepted, that would be validated by that, you know, like, my outlook on relationships and life at that time was massively different to. To. To us, but. And yet I wasn't. I didn't have the wherewithal to be like, okay, well, maybe, you know, this isn't the best idea, because I. I You know, because I wanted to be accepted so desperately by a person. You know, if you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple shop pay button.

[Conor Boyle]

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[Host/Interviewer]

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[Jordan Stevens]

That's Shopify.

[Host/Interviewer]

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[Conor Boyle]

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[Host/Interviewer]

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[Jordan Stevens]

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[Host/Interviewer]

So much of your perception at times feels like it's hard to know, you know, who who is thinking whether it's the drugs thinking for you in certain parts of the book. This is one chapter where you describe. I forget what the name of the drug was, but it took you to like a different dimension. What was it called?

[Jordan Stevens]

Dmt.

[Host/Interviewer]

Dmt?

[Jordan Stevens]

What do you say?

[Host/Interviewer]

I thought you said dim sum. I was worried there for a second.

[Jordan Stevens]

Because hey listen, you can never be sure the dmt. I couldn't tell you the scientific what is an acronym but I can't diametric.

[Host/Interviewer]

What I wanted to ask you was like, obviously you know, drugs are part of your story and you know, some people believe everything happened for a reason and somehow you ended up here from all of the experiences you took. Yeah, we always talk about the negative effects of drugs and you know, we're not condoning it here on stage, but I also wonder whether because of some of those experiences you described where you Literally went into another galaxy.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah, but DMT is not a drug. Sorry.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, well whatever. Dim sum, did you ever feel like, were there ever things you learned from being on drugs, from going to those recesses of the human mind?

[Jordan Stevens]

All right, so we're gonna have to split this because the drugs I'm talking to are predominantly the drugs is alcohol and cocaine. Like DMT in my eyes is a medicine. Right, again, disclaimer. I am not qualified to talk about DMT or like promote its use, but I would be disingenuous to say that I consider it a drug and also for me to think of it as like a negative thing. I was fucking lucky to be introduced to a guy who was literally like a masseuse and part time shaman. He lived in North London.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh yeah, I know the guy, he's a good lad.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah, yeah. Honestly, it's as wild as it sounds and, and like my experience with that medicine is out of this world and we hear about it, listen, it's being studied, I can't remember what university is. They're doing such great work with psychedelics and psilocybin and understanding mushroom use therapeutically. It's a fantastic antidepressant, it's an anti anxiety. There's another medicine called 5 Meo DMT. You can look this up. It's also something I did, but not during this book time. It's the venom of a cane toad in Mexico called Bufo Alvarez. I think again you hear about this, this lick the toad thing, it's like a, it's like an echo of the reality. Obviously don't lick toads. But late then I was here, but there's a scientific paper that was done 84, I think it was. 84 people did the study. It's hard because of the legislation. Varying mental states, right? One inhalation of 5 Meo DMT on 84 people of varying mental states had a 100% success rate for the reduction of psychopathological pathological symptoms within a month regardless of the trip. So if someone had a bad trip, good trip, didn't matter if they inhaled this and went and just allowed it to take its course, they instantly fell within the month. Less anxious, less depressed. And this is just stuff that's in nature. This is ancient teaching that's gone for, for time and listen, I just really, I want to learn more about it. I think it's incredible. I think everybody doing the work in that space knows how powerful that stuff is. Cocaine is expensive after 20 minutes. And in London they did a test of all the cocaine in London I said was on paper, the purest they found was 22%. So it's like we're sniffing Benadryl, rat poison, talcum powder, like what the is happening, Lem Sip. Definitely, yeah. And, and I would, I wished but you know, we have a very wild culture. I've said this recently, you know, we talk about, I heard on the radio talking about stop and searches. Boys living on suburbs with a bit of weed getting stopped. If they're really serious about stopping searches, they'd go into Soho, turn people over in a suit. They'd find about 75 grams of cocaine every night. Is that a clap? Oh yeah. And they would have found me in 2015.

[Host/Interviewer]

But just, just to say when they revoke your Soho House membership, I'll have that disturb.

[Jordan Stevens]

It's already cancelled, my friend. Just don't need to go there anymore.

[Host/Interviewer]

But Jordan, I guess like, what is it?

[Jordan Stevens]

Coke and alcohol I think are damaging for me personally. I'm six years sober. I really do believe that alcohol is a piece of shit. I understand that everybody engages it in different ways. People aren't as. Don't have like a bad use of it. Some people can do it casually and they feel okay and they can deal with the repercussions. But the whole industry like the damaging effect on us as a society, the fact that it is the gateway drug. Listen, no one would be doing coke if they weren't drunk. Who do you know is like, let me start with a line of coke. I don't know, like, do you know what I mean? Everyone's mashed up at a wedding being like, let's do a fucking line so I can sober up and get drunk again. Like what's going on? So anyway, I don't want to shame anyone because everyone comes to that journey on at different times and it is really popular in London and England. But I don't think that it's. For me it would ruin every single intimate relationship that I was in. So that's why I stopped doing it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, but the DMT stuff you mentioned, like when you describe it in the book. Yes, I went to a different planet just reading the description.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

So as a deep thinker, what I'm asking is in that space, did you learn anything about the human condition? Because most of us probably aren't going to do it.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah, it was wild, bro.

[Host/Interviewer]

Talk to me.

[Jordan Stevens]

So listen, this is the thing about dmt I can't explain it is there's nothing that I'd experienced in life normally like in Everyday life since the moment I was born, nothing ever, ever I've ever seen, felt, heard, smell, taste, anything could have prepared me for what I experienced. And the thing is, let me just pull this in and rein it in, right? Every, every time I engage with this stuff, it's with a pinch of salt, right? I really try and remain grounded. I don't want to think that something's going to fix me or kill me or like, you know, oh, we, we need to be in another dimension so we can communicate with aliens. It's none of that, right? It's. I smoked this tree bark and went to this infinite turquoise right where I left my body and I was in a suspended state of bliss. Even if that has a chemical reaction in my brain, why is that not being studied every day? Like, I literally was. I left, I breathed that, I breathed out. It's the fourth time I tried it, right? I had to surrender to the experience. I breathed out and I left my physical body, which is a terrifying feeling until it's not a feeling because I'm not me. I'm just in. I'm in everything. All the kind of silly hippie stuff you hear is what I felt. I was connected to a complete singularity and I was just experiencing unbelievable joy and time didn't exist. And then I've come back and I started laughing and part time masseuse was like, that's the cosmic giggle, that.

[Host/Interviewer]

And what is a cosmic giggle?

[Jordan Stevens]

Well, firstly, he was, firstly, he knew I'd gone there because on the other three attempts I hadn't quite gone there because I was fighting it, because I don't know, it's just, it's not that normal to leave your fucking body and die after smoking a fucking tree. So I'd fight it and come back like seven, eight minutes into the trip by this time because I smoked more and I'd let go. That got to the point where I went. I said, normally when I come back into my body and then I, and then I saw I was just so mad. I was separate to the thought and the second I was separate to the thought, I was gone. So anyway, I've come back 15 minutes later and masseuse is like, yeah. And he went, cosmic giggle because it's me, it's the body, just dealing with the fact that like, what is this? Like, what is this? Why do I care so much about, you know, I came out of that experience being like, why am I arguing with my mate about like something that happened with their partner, like last, you know, I mean, like, why? These are just nothingness, these divisions that existed between me and people felt like nothing. And. And then you could fall into real YouTube rabbit holes about, like, why is mushrooms illegal? Why are these psychedelic experiences illegal? Why do we not get taught about this stuff? Because really, it breeds unity. Yeah. All it took was two months of me being stuck in London traffic and I was fucking fuming again. You have to. You have to integrate the experience. You're encouraged to do yoga and, you know, breathe and embody it. But, like, I still was like, 20 in my mid-20s. Like, I was off my tits. I didn't know what was going on. I lasted about two months of peace and then I was fuming again.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, yet, that is my favorite chapter. And I think you. You really took me there. So I'm excited for people to read that.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

I think a lot of people with addiction will read this book.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah. And can I say one thing about that? Sorry. With the 5 MeO, DMT is used to treat heroin addicts. This is another thing. If you're in South America. It is one of the most effective ways I've seen of people becoming over which is the hardest addiction to overcome. Opiates. So that's why it's not a drug, it's medicine. But we just don't know much about it. So carry on. For sure.

[Host/Interviewer]

Get it in boots asap.

[Jordan Stevens]

This isn't a lie that.

[Host/Interviewer]

No.

[Jordan Stevens]

But you guys know what I mean, right? I don't know. Yeah. All right, cool. No, just. Just because it's like, here's a tough subject. It's a tough subject to talk about because, again, like, I'm not a fucking shaman. I'm not here, like, you know, and come to my retreat in Peru. But I do believe it's important for us to know there's more out there. You know, I mean, and we are. It is by design what we're told we can is considered a drug. I mean, ADHD medication is speed, mate. It's meth.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jordan Stevens]

It's methylphenidate. It's just the government sells it to me.

[Host/Interviewer]

Classic.

[Jordan Stevens]

I interrupted you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. I think a lot of people with addiction will read this book and I feel like some of them get to the end and think, damn, this guy, he fought addiction and won. But I think it's probably important to say, I don't know if that's true, but I suppose addiction is a lifelong thing.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer]

And I wonder whether there are ever moments, even now, that you feel close to it at any time.

[Jordan Stevens]

100. Oh, my God. So my friend is. I got one friend in recovery. I couldn't go to recovery. So again, recovery is AA NA. You know, the 12 steps. It's a beautiful opportunity for people to recover in community. And you have chips, however, sorry, don't eat chips. You have. Yeah, you're given chips per. Every day. As in to say one day. Sobriety Tuesday. I could never do it because of my beliefs of around mushrooms and to be honest, weed when I was first sober, because I just don't believe things from the earth are the same. But psychoactive is one of the rules. Fair enough. So I just speak to my friends in recovery who are going through the steps, and he said that it was described. Addiction was described to him as having six bins with five lids. So the whole thing with addiction is it's like a game almost where you put all your energy into putting the lid on one bin and you do live one free. You just have to try and pick the best bin. For example, like, I had moments during this book process. You know, it's like it was. There was chapters I wrote which were really tough to relive, and like, I was reliving memories and I was aware of a previous version of myself. There have been times since the Proof, even when we've had to go for approvals, and there have been tough decisions made, and. And then the fear of just fucking releasing the book. I will, you know, I'll find myself stuffing my face with croissants. But it's thinking, like, could be worse, it could be worse. And. And, you know, I wouldn't say, okay, I'm not addicted to croissants, but I was spiraling. I was spiraling, and my nearest outlets were that I don't even smoke cigarettes anymore, bro. And it's like that. So when I'm like grabbing things, I just look at it and go, if. Even if I've developed an unhealthy reliance on it, if it's not damaging people in my life, I can accept it. You know, if I play Call of Duty for an extra hour, like, in the scheme of things, like, I can. I'll take it, you know, I mean, if I, like, if I obsess over something like that. So yes, I am an addict. I'll always be an addict. I have to watch it in my relationship all the time. I'm naturally codependent. I have to make realize that I am not the same body as my partner. I'm not that person's full autonomous decisions, you know, same with my mum. Same with my dad. Like, I have these egoic codependencies, are desperate to reconnect constantly. It's my adult responsibility to be like, no, you know, we are separate beings. Things are okay, I'm okay, and I can exist outside of that. But the desire is always there.

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[Jordan Stevens]

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[Host/Interviewer]

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[Host/Interviewer]

And we're going to talk about, you know, the. The love and sort of relationship side and the implications from that book. A lot of the intimacy in the book is. Is quite intense. Of course, Simo's cut out, but I think there's often a very sweet and naive side to intimacy, you know, that starts from when we're young men. Which is the first kiss. I don't think I know this about you. Do you remember your first kiss? Mine was a nightmare by swap.

[Jordan Stevens]

Was it? Go on.

[Host/Interviewer]

No, you go first.

[Jordan Stevens]

No, you go first.

[Host/Interviewer]

This is a night with Jordan Stevens or first kiss. Okay, you go first.

[Jordan Stevens]

Are we recreating it?

[Host/Interviewer]

No, no, sorry. The story. Jordan. The story. Sorry, not in the house of God.

[Jordan Stevens]

Me and you were in Zimbabwe.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I told a joke. You cosmic giggle.

[Jordan Stevens]

Me. Everybody. Fuck's sake. I want to know. I kissed another. I kissed someone also called Jordan. A girl called Jordan. I kissed a girl called Jordan around the back of the school bins and.

[Host/Interviewer]

There were six of them, but only five of them had lids.

[Jordan Stevens]

Isn't it? Yeah. So good. Yes. We got another one that didn't have a lid on. Nah, it was. And it was. It was really. It was really rushed. And the thing is, the notable part of the first kiss isn't necessarily who or where it was. It was. It was how old I was? How old were you?

[Host/Interviewer]

How old am I now? So it was last week. Mine was during Spider Man 3 and the crucial era with that.

[Jordan Stevens]

Serious. Being serious.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. In the Cinema. Spider Man 3 scheduled it on MSN. And the problem was I really wanted to watch Spider Man 3, dude. So it was sort of the mouth was here, but the eyes were here.

[Jordan Stevens]

So, yeah, arguably one of the best.

[Host/Interviewer]

I had to wait for the Green Goblin to pop up. Not a euphemism. And then it happened. But it was terrible. But I felt so much pressure as a dude to get that right. And, you know, I feel like this is stuff that you touch on all the time about, you know, you've even stopped using the term toxic masculinity. I read.

[Jordan Stevens]

I personally have. Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Talk to me about that a little bit, because I'm really interested in that.

[Jordan Stevens]

Oh, just because, I mean, we know what the term. Well, sorry, I can't speak on both other people. I think there is understanding of what the term means, which is, you know, it's separate to masculinity. It is a toxic version of masculinity, and it's expressed in this macho culture. And when I first. I used toxic masculinity as a phrase years ago during MeToo, which is the Guardian article that I wrote. And then da, da, da, da. Back then, I felt like there was a decent handle on that term because me, too, was happening. There was this kind of, like, real. What's the word? Purge. Like, a really good purge. You know, there was like, this. This. I don't know how everyone else felt, but there was, at the peak of it, like, this. People were like, fuck, yeah. Maybe, you know, me included. Like, this is fucked. Like, what can we do to change things? Like, yeah, this is toxic. Let's not do this. However, recently, obviously, it's very important to me that I know. I know the space I'm discussing when I write something like this. So I wanted to know where young boys were at, where men were at. I've spoken at Women of the World Festival for, like, the last maybe five years, six years, and I love it. I'm like, I would recommend men to go to that. If I could force men to go to that festival, I would. You get to see this incredible plethora of incredible women who are just discussing the female experience, which I just wish we did more as men and interrogate the experience, you know, critique it. You Know, lift people, shine on, you know, make, put, shine, put people to the forefront who are doing positive things. Every single time I talk at this festival, the comments I get afterwards are from teachers or mothers saying, I'm worried about my boys. Or I look after a class full of boys. What can I do? Every year for five years. Yeah, in those, in that year, in those, in that time, all that's happened is the manosphere and what we call the red pill community, most notably Andrew Tate, have, like, come further to the forefront. So I'm just sitting there going, how do we make different choices so those kind of people aren't elevated because Andrew takes a joke. We know he's. Anyone with half a brain knows he's a fucking joke. I mean, he shouldn't be taken as a joke, but he is a ridiculous human being who is just desperate for attention. Piece of shit, right? But, like, the thing that we need to focus on is why. Why are people. Why are boys finding solace in something that toxic? So I'm thinking to myself, well, I just want boys to feel good in themselves. I want young men and boys to feel beautiful and wonderful and proud of the fact that they're boys, you know, and that's why I think these are taking. Get grabbing attention because they're just going, it's okay if you're a boy, or it's okay if you're a man. Like, literally, that's simple. Like, the advice that people will fight you with on is like, well, he says we should go to the gym. Like, what do you know? I mean, he says we should. You know, he says that, you know, you can fight if you want or, you know, you can start.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's just so.

[Jordan Stevens]

Such, like, the bare minimum of, like, existence as a boy, but so we need to do better. So, like, I worry that something like toxic masculinity is becoming meshed with masculinity now. And I don't want any boys to ever feel like they're just waiting to become toxic or, or their very being is toxic. That. That scares me. So. So, no, I. I'd rather say hyper masculinity, but. But the thing is, this isn't to separate that conversation. You know what I mean? Like, it is my responsibility. It's our responsibility as men in, in our culture, in our community to, like I say, interrogate the experience. We tell people that these aren't the men to follow. These men are not projecting a life of harmony and love. Right? Like, we have to do that. I would never want this to be A thing of, like, the focus being on the fucking word to describe these dickheads. I'm just saying that, like, my. My outlook and what I think is the best way to move forward is to just encourage boys to have a real healthy relationship with themselves, because then they. I believe they will make decisions from a place of a desire for love rather than a lack of it. You know what I'm saying?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, massively. During a phase where you were being toxic in the book, one of the factors you attribute to that is actually time.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Now, that's so interesting to me because if you ask anyone in this room, I think most people in this room, we all want more time. We all assume if we had more time, we. We would be happier, more successful. So why do you sort of. Why did you put that at the epicenter of the problem at many points in the book?

[Jordan Stevens]

Because I think because of the. Again, the, the expectations of. Of. Wait, let me just put it back to me.

[Host/Interviewer]

And to clarify as well, in the book, you basically say you were a young guy with too much time.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah, too much time. Time and time and money. Yes. Because I believe that my experience of this culture we live in, the system is. It's all about productivity, movement, working, working, working, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And being alone with the self. Just being alone with self and feeling what you're feeling is a scary experience because we literally are never taught about it. Never in life. Like, we go through eight. Like, what is. I don't know, how many years of formal education is 6, 8. I don't know, years and years learning about. Oh, well, some things are important, but we learn about stuff. But one hour a week, I don't know if it's changed, like, pse. There was some lessons that you, like, vaguely touch on, like, but it's like knowing how you're feeling. Do you know what I mean? Like, okay, I had time and money because Rizzo Kickstarter allowed me that I didn't have to be working eight out nine hours a day, every single day, to survive. But I was experiencing a heartbreak that I had put to the side because I was working so much. And I'm sat there just experiencing all of it. I'm not taking. I'm not drinking, I'm not doing drugs. I'm just feeling like six or seven years worth of grief at once. Yeah, that's scary. And a lot of people who just want to cope, that's the kind of thing they'll say, keep yourself busy. That's one Thing people are up there say, keep yourself busy. Get drunk. I was literally told by. By men. Two men told me, get drunk around to deal with the heartbreak. Which, listen, it works in the short term. The same thing will happen again. It's just delaying the inevitable. You know, this is something I learned in the bridge, which I talk about, and emotional trauma retreat I went on, which was the beautiful privilege that, like, money allowed me and time allowed me, was to go to workshops, guys. I went to a boyfriend workshop course. I had to learn how to be in a relationship. Like, I literally was like, okay, how do I be a good person in a relationship? And I fucking learn. You can learn. It's like we. This is the thing we all go through. Every single person in this room has to go through an intimate experience of love and connection. And where are we learning it? How do we know what the fuck to do? It affects all of us. So, like, it sounds funny. Oh, he went to a workshop on relationships. Why are we not all at relationship workshops? Because in school, I'm thinking, wouldn't that make more sense? Like, this is why this person might be feeling like this. This is why you might be feeling like this. Do you know what I mean? So that's what I mean by time attacking me is it's like in a world where everybody's working and moving and never, never, never, never, I was sat there smoking 100 fags a day. Being like, this is unbelievably painful. And no one has told me what the happens, which is why I wrote the book.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's like, so much time, so few valuable lessons to fill it with. In some instances, it's like, you know.

[Jordan Stevens]

The biggest lesson for me personally with pain. And I wonder if this differs slightly between men and women just literally, like, biologically, because I feel like pain is an inherent female experience, something that women have to constantly say, battle, like, come to terms with. You know, I mean, the hormonal imbalances that go for a woman's body are just like, we can't even compute, I don't think, as men. But, like, we do obviously still have to process and feel pain as men, but I think we think we can fix it. This is just. I'm generalizing for the sake of this. This is. This was ultimately my experience. I felt like I could fix it. Like, how do I. What do I do? Who do I pay? Like, who do I. What. What can I buy to eat that in. In a month is gone. It can't. It is. And I worry if that's why pain can hit especially men with certain statistics. And we want to get into. I wonder if that's why. Because you can't fix it. And no one tells you that it fades. No one tells you that it fades and flashes. And you just gotta wait. You gotta ride the flashes. And then it does go. I didn't know, man. I didn't know any of that, you know?

[Host/Interviewer]

So we've got about two more questions from me before we throw to our audience. One of the questions of one of the heroes of the book I have to bring up now is Cisco the song song.

[Jordan Stevens]

Specifically, we could have put the lyrics. Things we had to pay for it, which.

[Host/Interviewer]

You more or less, to paraphrase quote, that Cisco helps you unleash the dragon, right?

[Jordan Stevens]

Do I say that?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, you do say that.

[Jordan Stevens]

You said that pretty much.

[Ad/Promo Speaker]

You.

[Host/Interviewer]

How much of the story to give away, Basically, a performance involving Cisco is almost like a gateway to you realizing you're an instrument.

[Jordan Stevens]

Cisco is my gateway drug.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found that really cool reading, because it's funny how adults will say, you know, music influences young men, and it does, but for you, it influenced you positively, I guess. Yeah. I just want to imagine, young Jordan, how much music did influence you? Because I remember sat at home, I would memorize all the lyrics to 50 Cent by just jumping back in the YouTube video. So that really came on at the school prom. I was the guy who knew all the words. Obviously, I grew up in Norwich, so no one even knew what 50 Cent was.

[Jordan Stevens]

Everyone knows 50 Cent.

[Host/Interviewer]

Everyone was like, why is this man speaking in tongues in the middle of prom? But, yeah, how important was music to you, Jordan?

[Jordan Stevens]

Send him back.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, Soella. Bravo. Crikey. Did a little DMTREE trip there, didn't you? Into the body of a conservative.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah, I mean, look, I spend a lot of the book dissecting my childhood, you know, interrogating my mum and my dad, my relationships between them, you know, cutting ties, severing loyalties. You know, I'm really going for it because I just really want people to have a little bit more of an understanding of, you know, different choices that can be made. But it would be wonderful to honor many of the beautiful times I had in my childhood. And, like, a massive part of that for me was music, you know, from my mom and my dad. My dad is an incredible musician. Also didn't teach me the guitar, so actually, him for that. That was actually really annoying because, like, why do I not know the guitar? But he's an incredible musician, and you know, I would go to his studio every now and again and he would be. He was looking after the studio in Fulham and he would have all these cool bands in and he was just like, you know, I just was like, whoa, music. And my mum, she'd write these song lyrics and they'd be scattered all over the living room floor and I would pick up these lyrics and I'd look at them and I can still. I mean, my mum has these incredible demos which one day I'll maybe secretly release or something, but she. I know every lyric to every song that my mom recorded when I was a boy and it was in the 90s and she was ahead of her time. Shout out. And so, you know, music naturally became like a form of escape for me. I say that to also say, for whatever reason, in spite of my quite vast musical knowledge, because of my mum's CD collection, which went from literally Gangstar to Nirvana to Beck to Sneaker Pimps to, you know, my mum was the first person to show me Dizzy Rascal, one of my teens. First person sent me Plan B. My mom also found Royal Blood. For real. Like, she went to a. She didn't find them obviously, but she. She went to a gig at the Prince Albert in Brighton, which is a tiny venue, and texted me after was like, hey, you should check these guys out, they're called Royal Blood. And then like a year later, they were fucking astronomical. So she's got an incredible taste of music. I'm not sure if my mum played me Cisco, but I did decide that I wanted to be him when I was seven. And. And so I dyed my Afro silver, which was obviously gray.

[Host/Interviewer]

And, yeah, I was looking like Trevor McDonald out there. The talent show, for real.

[Jordan Stevens]

Literally. And. And I was in the. I was in the Brent local Brent talent competition, you know, and I. I.

[Host/Interviewer]

Mean, that's where to. Yeah, that's where to, Davy is where to find it.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah. And. And I was lip syncing Thong Song. I had no fucking idea what he was talking about.

[Host/Interviewer]

Help you unleash the dragon, though. So, I mean, it's a full circle.

[Jordan Stevens]

My mum pushed me on stage. Not like literally, but I mean, like, she encouraged me to go and she said I'd really enjoy it. And long story short, the curtains shut. And I came back out of the curtains and started clapping the crowd. So the dragon had been unleashed. Yeah. And, you know, it is validating. It's beautiful being in front of crowds and audiences. It's just, you know, finding healthy ways to. To integrate that with the Everyday being.

[Host/Interviewer]

You know, have, have your parents read the book?

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah. And look, since making like slightly better choices in my life, I have a much better relationship with my mum and dad. I love them both a lot. They've both been through a lot individually. And one thing I hope people get from the book is, you know, like I'm saying it's morally ambiguous. It's not about affection or some self help. It's like it's. I know that of my mum and dad. I know they've gone through tough times. They've done the absolute best they can with what they have. Like without a doubt. Do you know what I mean? And like my mum put all her love into me being a creative child. You have to understand this, this is, this is. Okay, let me give an example of how life can be, right? My mom pretty much selflessly devoted herself in my childhood to just make me sure that, that I believed in myself creatively. She devoted her whole self and anyone who knows I can attest to that. Right. When I became an adult, what was one of the most difficult things for me to deal with was the fact that she didn't look after herself. Do you understand how complex that is? I've grown up as a boy, I needed to see her looking after herself. But other than that, she devoted herself to me. Do you know what I'm saying? But how are we supposed to know that shit? I sat down with my mum during some of the hardest bits in the book. I sat with her and read her the parts and I said what you said in the beginning. I went, look, I want to like be as raw as possible so we can be part of like this, some things shifting if you know, that's the hope. We have to dream that my mum was on board because she again, she is like an incredibly devoted, loyal mother who you know, deserves the world, you know. And I just, the issue was I wanted to be, make her happy as a boy and that wasn't my responsibility. Oh, there she is. So yeah, so that, that. So, so yeah. So my mum read it, obviously happy about it and my dad read it and you know, my dad gave me wicked feedback too. You know, it's tough, but it is tough because these are people's lives and, and there's some things I can't to say because it's not my story. I just have to talk about my engagement with it. But I believe that I've been fair and I believe that people can understand. It's my flawed like perception of a situation and it's an attempt to untangle some wires and just look at them and discuss. I'm not set on any of this, you know. If people want to have a suggestion, you know, feedback on it, I'm here to talk about it, you know.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, bro, I just think that how raw and honest you were through the entire book is what makes it you, you know, that's how I know you. I think that's, in some ways, to me, what it truly means to be a man is just to, just to be honest and to be human. So I think you really smashed that out of the park. My last question for you, yeah, is I think it was in a, maybe the Guardian interview, used the phrase something like layers of intergenerational emotional trauma or something.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

And pet. And sort of chipping away at it.

[Jordan Stevens]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

It sort of reminded me of like a mortgage payment almost. So I guess what I wanted to ask was how to end off. How far are you into paying that debt and how are you going to try and minimize that for future Jordans, if there ever are future Jordans.

[Jordan Stevens]

Right, listen, I'm gonna say straight up, I'm broody as fuck.

[Host/Interviewer]

Your mum?

[Jordan Stevens]

No, no. Who's my mum sat next to you, prick.

[Host/Interviewer]

Trevor McDonald's.

[Jordan Stevens]

I, I'm, I'm super broody. I, I really desperately, I say desperately, I, I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm prepared to be a dad. But my God, Rania, the one thing that I know about being a dad at now is, I don't know, like, I won't be ready. I'm gonna make mistakes. I'm not gonna be perfect. There's no way of doing that. Right. All I can do right now is make sure I look after myself and I make sure that I keep myself in a decent space, as decent space as possible. And that includes allowing myself to be a fucking human being and make mistakes. I know that, you know, and I've also had. This is another thing. I've got men around me who are currently being great fathers. I'm watching it happen in real time, you know, I mean, I will be tapped into a community of people who are breaking generational traumas, and this is generational trauma that is as a result of systems outside of these people's control. Do you know what I mean? There's so much pressure on people nowadays. So, so much pressure. Time is barely there. Like, I don't want to get into like a, you know, political rant about things, but it's, there's a lot of pressure. Yeah. And I understand and I have deep empathy. So yeah, I want to be a good dad. And I know that I'm not going to be a perfect dad. And that should be good as long as the kid supports Arsenal.

[Host/Interviewer]

Are we going to clap for that?

[Jordan Stevens]

We're in North London, mate.

[Host/Interviewer]

Let's give it up for Jordan one time. Because as ever.

[Conor Boyle]

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by myself, Connor Boyle, with production and editing by Mark Roberts and B. Duncan.

[Jordan Stevens]

And Doug Limu.

[Host/Interviewer]

And I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music.

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[Host/Interviewer]

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[Jordan Stevens]

Customize and save.

[Host/Interviewer]

We save. That may have been too much feeling.

[Jordan Stevens]

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