Podcast Summary: Intelligence Squared – The 12 Books of Christmas

Guest: Jordan Stephens
Host: Intelligence Squared (with comedian Munya Chawawa as interviewer)
Date: December 18, 2024
Episode: Jordan Stephens on Love, Chaos and Becoming a Man

Overview

In this festive episode, Intelligence Squared spotlights Jordan Stephens—musician, actor, and now author of the memoir Avoidance, Drugs, Heartbreak and Dogs. Hosted in conversation with comedian Munya Chawawa, the discussion journeys through Stephens’ turbulent youth, reputation as one half of Rizzle Kicks, complex relationships, battles with addiction and masculinity, and the process of self-inquiry and healing. With warmth, wit, and unflinching honesty, the pair explore social taboos, generational struggle, and the lifelong quest to become a better man.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact and Experience of Publishing a Memoir

[06:11]

• Stephens’ Reaction to Publishing:
  “It’s an incredible feeling. I can’t even really compute it, but I am so proud of myself for doing it... My intention with this is to create something that will exist after I die. For sure. That has to be the dream.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 06:11)
• Reflections on Artistic Legacy: Stephens expresses his surprise and pride at seeing an audience gathered to discuss his life and work, considering it a significant personal achievement in facing self-criticism and leaving something behind.
• Celebration: Instead of typical post-publication partying, he celebrated by eating an enormous croissant—a humorous anecdote highlighting his commitment to sobriety.
  “Straight edge means massive croissant.” (Paraphrased)

2. Procrastination and the ADHD Experience

[09:46]

• Navigating Focus and Creative Block: Stephens openly discusses the process of writing with ADHD—falling into YouTube “wormholes,” researching “random court cases,” and the pressure to always be productive.
• Self-Acceptance:
  “Nowadays it seems like [ADHD] is a hot-button topic because the existence we all live in crosses over with the symptoms... I don’t think anybody can pay attention.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 10:35)
• Routine and Resistance: Candidly admits many chapters were written just before bed, in windows where willpower had faded.

3. Moral Ambiguity and Storytelling

[13:00]

• Addressing Cheating and Moral Complexity: Stephens does not seek to justify his past infidelity but aims to “exist in a space of moral ambiguity, and... accept and attempt to integrate a shadow self or darker side.”
• The Universal Experience of Betrayal: He points to the need for honest discussion, referencing the work of Esther Perel and the lack of societal narratives that allow cheaters to explain, heal, or change.
  • “Anybody who’s ever cheated in the history of mankind has watched Esther Perel talk on YouTube.” (Jordan Stephens, 14:01)
  • Describes the Internet’s cold responses to those seeking redemption: “The first response on a Reddit thread was, ‘You’ve just ruined someone’s life.’ Sweet. All right.”

4. Drugs, Escapism, and Psychedelic Insight

[16:38] – [32:42]

• Substance Use as Escape: Drugs, especially alcohol and cocaine, entered Stephens’ life through a craving for acceptance and belonging.
• Duality of Substances: While cocaine and alcohol were destructive (“alcohol is a piece of shit”—28:17), he credits psychedelic experiences (notably DMT) with profound, positive impacts:
  • “DMT is not a drug. Sorry. DMT in my eyes is a medicine.” (Jordan Stephens, 24:16)
  • Shares transformative experiences of “leaving his body... in a suspended state of bliss,” helping him see arguments and division as “nothingness.” (29:34)
• Cultural Critique:
  “If they’re really serious about stopping searches, they’d go into Soho, turn people over in a suit. They’d find about 75 grams of cocaine every night. [...] And they would have found me in 2015.”
  (27:13)
• Sustaining Recovery: Six years sober, Stephens acknowledges lifelong vigilance is required, swapping damaging compulsions for less harmful ones (“stuffing my face with croissants,” “Call of Duty”).

5. Masculinity, Love, and Relationship Education

[36:45] – [43:00]

• First Kisses and Gender Expectations: Both host and guest share awkward first kiss stories, segueing into pressures placed on men to perform and the pitfalls of “toxic masculinity.”
• Rejecting ‘Toxic Masculinity’ Terminology:
  “I worry that something like toxic masculinity is becoming meshed with masculinity now. And I don’t want any boys to ever feel like they’re just waiting to become toxic or their very being is toxic. That scares me.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 41:22)
• Championing Healthy Role Models: Observes the rise of the ‘manosphere’ and figures like Andrew Tate, advocating for nurturing healthy, self-loving masculinity instead of reactionary or hyper-masculine identities.

6. The Role of Time, Pain, and Emotional Education

[43:00] – [46:46]

• Dangers of ‘Too Much Time’: Post-fame, time and money created space for suppressed grief and existential struggle.
• Need for Relationship Education: Stephens notes the lack of social structures to teach emotional coping and relationship skills, leading him to seek workshops and retreats.
  • “Why are we not all at relationship workshops? Because in school... wouldn’t that make more sense?” (Jordan Stephens, 44:27)
• Lessons on Pain:
  “No one tells you that [pain] fades and flashes. You gotta ride the flashes, and then it does go.”
  (Jordan Stephens, 45:41)

7. Music as Escape and Healing

[47:54]

• Family and Musical Roots: Stephens describes his parents—particularly his mother—as formative influences on his creative expression.
• Early Ambitions: Humorously recounts emulating Sisqó (even dying his hair silver at age seven) and how performance offered validation and release.
  • “Cisco is my gateway drug.” (Jordan Stephens, 47:22)
  • “Long story short, the curtains shut. And I came back out of the curtains and started clapping the crowd. So the dragon had been unleashed.” (Jordan Stephens, 50:36)

8. Family, Intergenerational Trauma, and Fatherhood

[51:00] – [55:46]

• Stephens navigates the delicate act of writing about his parents, aiming for “raw as possible” honesty while respecting their privacy.
• On Generational Healing:
  “All I can do right now is make sure I look after myself and I make sure that I keep myself in as decent space as possible. And that includes allowing myself to be a fucking human being and make mistakes...” (Jordan Stephens, 54:32)
• Future Aspirations: Shares desire to be a good father, acknowledging he won’t be perfect but can continue to heal and break cycles.
  • “I want to be a good dad. And I know that I’m not going to be a perfect dad. And that should be good—as long as the kid supports Arsenal.” (Jordan Stephens, 55:46)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lasting Art:
  “My intention with this is to create something that will exist after I die. For sure. That has to be the dream.” (06:11)

• On Cheating and Moral Conversations:
  “The idea of the book is to exist in a space of moral ambiguity, and my actions run parallel with my own duality.” (13:00)

• On Drug Culture:
  “No one would be doing coke if they weren’t drunk. Who do you know is like, ‘Let me start with a line of coke’?” (27:26)

• On Masculinity:
  “I want young men and boys to feel beautiful and wonderful and proud of the fact that they’re boys... I worry that something like toxic masculinity is becoming meshed with masculinity now.” (41:21)

• On Processing Pain:
  “The biggest lesson for me personally with pain... No one tells you that it fades. No one tells you that it flashes. And you just gotta wait.” (45:41)

• On Intergenerational Trauma:
  “All I can do right now is make sure I look after myself... and that includes allowing myself to be a fucking human being and make mistakes.” (54:32)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Art & Legacy, Feelings on Book Release: [06:11]
• Writing Process, Procrastination & ADHD: [09:46]
• Infidelity & Seeking Empathy: [13:00]
• Substance Use, DMT & Recovery Insights: [16:38] – [32:42]
• Masculinity, First Kisses & Social Pressures: [36:45] – [43:00]
• Emotional Pain, Relationship Education: [43:00] – [46:46]
• Music & Validation: [47:54]
• Family, Healing, and Fatherhood Aspirations: [51:00] – [55:46]

Conclusion

This episode of Intelligence Squared offers a candid, often profound look at the messiness of growth, addiction, love, and what it means to become a man in the 21st century. Jordan Stephens’s voice is by turns hilarious, vulnerable, critical, and always seeking—offering not prescriptions, but an honest invitation to interrogate our own stories. For anyone grappling with masculinity, addiction, or simply the desire to be “good enough,” Stephens’ journey is moving, relatable, and often unexpectedly uplifting.