Podcast Summary: "The Age of the Strongman: Understanding Trump, with Anne Applebaum (Part One)"
Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Host: Gideon Rachman (Chief Foreign Affairs Commentator, Financial Times)
Guest: Anne Applebaum (Pulitzer Prize-winning Historian, Author of "Gulag" and "Autocracy Inc.")
Date: October 25, 2025
Location: Royal Geographical Society, London
Episode Overview
This episode is the concluding instalment of Intelligence Squared’s "Age of the Strongman" series. Gideon Rachman and Anne Applebaum delve into whether Donald Trump, following his second presidential victory, fits the mold of a “strongman” leader like Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping. The discussion explores Trump’s radical second-term agenda, its implications for American democracy, and broader questions of authoritarianism, legality, corruption, and resistance within the United States.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Defining the "Strongman" Leader
[01:58–04:39]
- Rachman recounts his framework from "Age of the Strongman": leaders who thrive on crisis, cultivate a personalist style, and assert “I alone can fix it.”
- Trump is discussed alongside autocratic leaders, though his election by democratic means introduces complexity.
Quote:
"Trump himself probably put it better than any of the others when in 2016 accepting the Republican nomination, he describes this crisis as he sees it in the United States. And he says, 'I alone can fix it.'"
— Gideon Rachman [03:20]
2. Trump's Second Term: More Radical and Unpredictable
[05:24–07:51]
- Applebaum asserts that Trump’s second term is not only more radical but that this was predictable after January 6th.
- A new coalition has formed around Trump, including Silicon Valley libertarians, Christian nationalists, and traditional MAGA supporters.
- These groups converged on plans for rapid institutional change, documented in "Project 2025" by Russ Vought (now head of OMB).
Quote:
"It absolutely feels more radical, and it was predictable that it would be... Different contingents of people in the US who, for different reasons dislike the American political system or want it very, very radically changed, saw that Trump had tried to overthrow the results of an election... And they began planning for the second administration."
— Anne Applebaum [05:24]
3. Unpopular Policies & Accelerated Actions
[08:18–09:39]
- Trump’s administration is aware their agenda is broadly unpopular, fueling their haste and approach of pushing legal and institutional boundaries.
- Examples include the destruction/renovation of the White House east wing (a metaphor for broader institutional assault), dismantling USAID, gutting EPA, etc.
Quote:
"A lot of what was in [Project 2025] was very unpopular and actually remains very unpopular. And it's very important to remember that a lot of Trump's agenda is very unpopular."
— Anne Applebaum [08:18]
4. Threats to Democracy: Law, Institutions, and Elections
[09:56–14:22]
- Tactics include acting in legal grey areas or outright illegality, knowing court challenges take time and may be moot.
- Example: Dismantling USAID, aggressive use of ICE, and ignoring approval protocols for White House changes.
- Encouragement of Republican-led states to alter electoral maps (gerrymandering) and federal efforts to obtain voter rolls with a view to “kick people off.”
- Explicit use of state power (DOJ, IRS, regulators) to target political opponents and chill dissent.
Quote:
"His tactic has been...to go ahead and do the thing that comes close to breaking the law and then worry about whether the courts try to stop you later."
— Anne Applebaum [09:56]
Quote:
"They're open. This is never the open, open way in which the federal government is trying to encourage the states to [gerrymander]... We've never had that happen before."
— Anne Applebaum [13:52]
5. Rise of a Culture of Fear and Chilling Effect
[16:20–17:00, 22:55–25:19]
- Increasing numbers of Americans (academics, business leaders, donors) are self-censoring to avoid federal retaliation (grant loss, audits, regulatory actions).
- While not East Germany–style fear, Applebaum notes the real power of government to ruin careers and institutions creates a suppressive environment.
Quote:
"There is a sense that you have to be...careful because the federal government is so powerful in so many different spheres... So I wouldn't say fear makes it sound like, as I said, they're waiting for the knock on the door...But there is a sense that you have to be careful about what you can say."
— Anne Applebaum [24:43]
6. Control Over Media and Information
[27:03–28:44]
- The Trump administration’s allies acquire or pressure media (including details about TikTok’s control being transferred to Trump-aligned investors).
- The trend mirrors "soft authoritarian" models from other countries (Hungary, India, Turkey), using economic and ownership structures over outright censorship.
Quote:
"Once the media had been...bought up by friends of the prime minister or friends of the ruling party, then there was less and less competition and it was very hard for people to read anything that wasn't pro government. Again, that's not going to happen in the United States... But there is more pressure..."
— Anne Applebaum [28:44]
7. Corruption and Self-Enrichment: Trump Inc.
[29:59–34:07]
- The Trump family and associates have leveraged public office for immense personal wealth, exceeding $1 billion since the last inauguration.
- Discussion of the Trump crypto company, World Liberty Financial, as an unregulated revenue stream, and payment for White House renovations by private donors with unclear returns.
Quote:
"The scale of this, the amount of money involved, the conflict of interest is on a level that we have never seen and people I don't think really can even comprehend."
— Anne Applebaum [33:54]
8. Public Response and Prospects for Opposition
[34:07–37:20]
- Despite narratives that Trump is popular, polling indicates widespread disapproval, even on immigration (traditionally his strongest area).
- Significant protest has emerged (e.g., the “No Kings” protest attracted 7 million), but the lack of a "leader of the opposition" in America diffuses resistance and makes organizing harder compared to parliamentary systems.
Quote:
"There is beginning to be a pretty large response... [including] the no kings one, which attracted 7 million people. I think it's probably the largest single day protest in American history."
— Anne Applebaum [35:35]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Strongman Leadership:
"I alone can fix it." – Donald Trump (quoted by Rachman) [03:20] - On Legal Boundaries:
"His tactic has been... to go ahead and do the thing that comes close to breaking the law and then worry about whether the courts try to stop you later." – Anne Applebaum [09:56] - On Chilling Dissent:
"People are beginning to be afraid to give money to organizations that Trump doesn't like... because maybe it could get you audited." – Anne Applebaum [16:10] - On the State of Fear:
"I don't want to make it sound like the United States is East Germany, but there is a sense that you have to be careful..." – Anne Applebaum [24:43] - On Unprecedented Corruption:
"The scale of this, the amount of money involved... is on a level that we have never seen." – Anne Applebaum [33:54]
Important Timestamps
- [01:58] Rachman introduces the "strongman" series and framework
- [05:24] Applebaum: Why Trump’s second term is more radical
- [09:56] Applebaum: Legal and institutional violations under Trump
- [13:52] Federal encouragement of gerrymandering
- [16:20] Using state power against political opponents
- [24:43] Applebaum: Chilling effect and culture of caution
- [28:44] The transformation of US media landscapes
- [33:54] On the scale of Trump-era corruption
- [35:35] Scale of new protest movements
Tone and Final Takeaways
The conversation is frank, measured, and laced with the dark humor and worry that characterize much elite commentary on democratic backsliding. Applebaum maintains a historian’s skepticism, always wary of overblown historical analogies but clear in her warnings about the erosion of institutional norms, the decline in public confidence, the weaponization of state power, and the massive enrichment of those close to Trump. She highlights both the uniquely American aspects of the Trump phenomenon and its resonance with global trends toward "soft authoritarianism."
Listeners come away with a sense of urgency: while the US has not tipped into outright dictatorship, there is significant legal, social, and informational pressure, and the situation is both unprecedented and deeply consequential. Nonetheless, resistance is vibrant, if decentralized—and the struggle over the nature and future of American democracy continues.
For future listening: This is Part One of the discussion. Stay tuned for Part Two for further analysis and, possibly, strategies for democratic resilience.