Intelligence Squared: "The Remarkable True Story of The Extremists Who Hijacked the 1970s" with Jason Burke (Part Two)

Date: January 5, 2026
Host: Gordon Carrera (Co-host, The Rest Is Classified)
Guest: Jason Burke (International Security Correspondent, The Guardian)
Producer: Mia Sorrenti
Location: Kiln Theatre, London

Episode Overview

This live event features Jason Burke, in conversation with Gordon Carrera, unpacking the extraordinary and tumultuous rise and fall of revolutionary extremists in the 1970s. Part two of the discussion explores key figures driving secular and religious terrorism, governmental responses, and the seismic shift from leftist, nationalist violence to Islamist jihadism. Burke shares insights from declassified archives and firsthand interviews with former militants, shining a nuanced light on why the language and motivations of extremism changed, and how its legacies endure today.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Life and Legacy of Ali Hassan Salameh

[03:01–07:18]

• Who was Salameh?

  • A flamboyant Palestinian figure from a notable resistance family.
  • Developed into a key PLO intelligence operative.
  • Involved in Black September, but not the 1972 Munich attack.
  • Notorious for his style: fast cars, Elvis records, multilingual charisma.
  • Used as a bridge to the West and CIA, negotiating on behalf of the PLO.

• Salameh’s Unique Diplomacy:

  • “[Salameh] is the only person I’ve ever been able to write about... who went on honeymoon with a bigamous wife who was Miss Universe and went to Hawaii with all expenses paid by the CIA.” — Jason Burke [04:37]
  • Tried to secure legitimacy for the PLO in Europe while shutting down attacks.
  • Served as a direct communication channel with Western intelligence.

• Assassination and Its Timing:

  • Killed in January 1979 during a media focus on the Iranian revolution.
  • Marks the end of an ‘approachable’ type of terrorist, shifting to a new era of violence.

2. Shifting Tides: The Eclipse of Secular Revolutionaries & Rise of Islamism

[07:18–13:38]

• The Decline of Leftist Extremism:

  • By early 1980s, revolutionary violence in the West diminished—terror shifted toward ethno-separatist acts (IRA, ETA).
  • In the Middle East, the secular left lost ground to a new Islamic political wave.

• Roots of Islamist Emergence:

  • Events like the 1979 Grand Mosque seizure and the assassination of Egypt’s Sadat (1981) were pivotal.
  • “[The book] ends with Osama Bin Laden up a mountain in Afghanistan... the latter third... looks at how that happened, particularly through events like the Iranian revolution.” — Jason Burke [08:07]

• Why the Shift?

  • Shared grievances persisted while old ideologies faded in appeal.
  • Islamist movements offered compelling new identities, especially to the young, urban middle class.
  • Key leftist leaders were killed, imprisoned, or scattered, leaving a vacuum.

• Explicit Continuities Noted:

  • “It’s not that the ideology is interchangeable but that you can express the same grievances in a different vocabulary if that vocabulary still makes sense to you...” —Jason Burke [11:23]

3. Biography and Symbolism: Osama Bin Laden and the 1970s Generation

[13:38–17:24]

• Bin Laden’s Background:

  • Framed as a “child of the seventies” who grew up amid oil crises and key Middle Eastern conflicts.
  • “He grows up in this environment that is very 70s... most importantly the seizure of the mosque by these Islamic militants in 79... I know he was very affected by this.” — Jason Burke [14:29–15:17]
  • Early Islamist language borrowed rhetorical devices from leftist, anti-colonial/imperialist struggles.

• Islamist Rhetoric and Leftist Inheritance:

  • Leftist remnants infiltrated the vocabulary and cause selection—“colonialism, imperialism, Zionism... targets Ulrike Meinhof would have recognized.” [16:09]
  • Social conservatism and identity politics fused with revolutionary fervor, distinguishing the new wave.

4. Inside the Movements: Research and Interviews from the Frontlines

[17:24–22:30]

• Interviewing Former Militants:

  • Burke’s interview with Farrokh Negahdar, leader of Iran’s revolutionary Fedayeen, revealed the complexities and regrets underlying cooperation with Iran’s post-revolution clerical regime.
  • “He never answered [whether he regretted decisions] straight. He always just said, I can explain why I made those decisions... that’s kind of why I wanted to write the book.” — Jason Burke [21:49]

• Reflections on Accountability:

  • The moral and historical ambiguity of ex-militants—balancing explanation with acknowledgment of mistakes.

5. Q&A: Terminology, Far-Right Extremism, and Jihadist Attitudes Toward Predecessors

[22:30–33:19]

A. On Language and Labels

• Burke strives to distinguish “terrorist” acts from reducing people to the noun “terrorist”:
  • “Terrorism is a thing you can see, name, and define... but as a noun, I think it is unhelpful because it reduces an individual to a single category, and that does not help us understand them or their activities.” — Jason Burke [23:45]

B. The Far Right’s Role in the 1970s

• Far-right groups existed but were less international and less prominent than the leftists in this period.
• Sometimes aided leftist operations (e.g., possibly supplying weapons for the Munich operation) but were not primary actors.

C. Jihadist View of Earlier Extremists

• Later jihadists like Bin Laden and Azzam barely referenced their leftist predecessors and generally viewed them as irrelevant or adversarial.
• “They certainly don’t [view] them sympathetically... Abdul Azzam... heard the Palestinian fedayeen singing songs about the armed struggle... and said... how is it that these young people, the nationalist secular lot who haven’t got my faith, are fighting and we are not?” — Jason Burke [28:19]

6. Cult of Personality and Martyrdom: Continuities and Contrasts

[33:19–37:47]

• Cult of Personality:

  • Not universal; some figures (Carlos, Andreas Baader) relished notoriety, others especially women or more ideological militants, actively avoided the spotlight.

• Martyrdom across Eras:

  • The concept of “martyrdom” evolved, becoming more explicit and ritualized in religious movements (post-Iranian revolution, Hezbollah, later Al-Qaeda).
  • Earlier secular groups memorialized fallen members—naming operations after them—but did not systematically pursue suicide operations.
  • “Fedayeen know that the death, the risk of death is high when they go out to fight... but they don’t actively know it’s going to happen. And that may seem like a subtle difference, but it isn’t. It’s a really important difference...” — Jason Burke [36:33]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“He’s the only person I’ve ever been able to write about who went on honeymoon with... Miss Universe and went to Hawaii with all expenses paid by the CIA.”
— Jason Burke (on Ali Hassan Salameh) [04:37]

“The heart of the book... is looking at why in the West you start in the same place with the revolutionary moment of the late 70s ...by the end of the 70s it’s really disappearing. But in the Middle East, you end in a completely different place.”
— Jason Burke [08:07]

“It’s not that the ideology is interchangeable but that you can express the same grievances in a different vocabulary if that vocabulary still makes sense to you.”
— Jason Burke [11:23]

“Terrorism is a thing that you can see, name and define... but as a noun, I think it is unhelpful because it reduces an individual to a single category...”
— Jason Burke [23:45]

“Fedayeen know that the risk of death is high... but they don’t actively know it’s going to happen. That may seem like a subtle difference, but it isn’t.”
— Jason Burke [36:33]

Important Timestamps

• 03:01–07:18: Deep dive into Ali Hassan Salameh’s activities
• 07:18–13:38: Transition from secular to Islamic extremism
• 13:38–17:24: Osama Bin Laden’s 1970s influences
• 17:44–22:30: Farrokh Negahdar’s story and research methodology
• 22:30–26:27: On the terminology and defining terrorism
• 26:27–27:23: Far-right extremism in the 1970s
• 27:23–29:13: How jihadists viewed their predecessors
• 33:19–37:47: Cult of personality and martyrdom among extremists

Tone & Style

Throughout, Jason Burke combines wry humor and sobering insight, making complex historical developments both accessible and vivid. Gordon Carrera maintains an inquisitive and neutral style, guiding the conversation to elicit personal anecdotes and broader analyses.

Summary prepared for listeners seeking a comprehensive yet accessible overview of this Intelligence Squared episode, focusing on the legacies and transformations within extremist movements from the 1970s to the rise of modern jihadism.