Podcast Summary: "What Can Criminal Psychology Teach Us About Climate Change?"

Podcast: Intelligence Squared
Host: Helen Chersky
Guest: Dr. Julia Shaw (Criminal Psychologist, Author of Green Crime)
Date: October 9, 2025

Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, physicist and broadcaster Helen Chersky speaks with criminal psychologist Dr. Julia Shaw about her new book Green Crime. They explore how criminal psychology can illuminate the often-overlooked human behavior and decision-making behind environmental crimes. Shaw argues for a shift in how we perceive and respond to environmental harm—treating it not as an abstract or accidental phenomenon, but as the result of conscious decisions made by individuals and institutions. The discussion covers criminal motivations, systemic failures, psychological rationalizations, and practical interventions for catalyzing positive change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Does a Criminal Psychologist Do?

[03:40]

• Shaw specializes in memory's role in criminal investigation, assessing if witnesses' recollections are reliable or have been influenced by investigative techniques.
• She examines why people—often "good people"—do bad things, focusing on behavior change and cognitive distortions.

2. Linking Crime to Environmental Harm

[05:02]

• Shaw was motivated by feelings of powerlessness (“eco-anxiety” and “eco-despair”) over environmental crises.
• Realized these events are caused by individuals making decisions—sometimes conscious crimes rather than random or merely negligent acts.
• Sees her book as an experiment in applying criminal psychology frameworks to environmental issues.

Notable Quote:
"These are individuals making decisions to engage often in environmental crimes. And I know stuff about crime, so why can't I try and understand whether we can apply what we know from criminal psychology to environmental issues?"
— Julia Shaw [05:43]

3. Why Label Environmental Offenders as Criminals?

[07:06]

• Using crime narratives makes abstract environmental issues more relatable and urgent.
• Re-framing environmental violators as criminals (akin to serial killers) could shift public and political response.

Notable Quote:
"If we were to put environmental criminals in the same category, say as serial killers, I think societally, we'd make a huge leap in terms of understanding what's really at stake…”
— Julia Shaw [07:54]

4. Defining Environmental Crime

[08:58]

• Distinction between civil and criminal law: Not all legal breaches are “crimes” in the social sense.
• Shaw's case studies focus on deliberate, egregious violations—cases where wrongdoers knowingly broke significant environmental laws.

5. Case Study: Dieselgate & Psychological Rationalization

[14:00]

• The Volkswagen emissions scandal involved systemic deception but little individual guilt among perpetrators.
• Rationalization is common—people explain their actions as justified (“I had to do it”; “I would have lost my job”), shifting blame from personal ethics to circumstances.
• This dynamic also appears in wildlife crime: Convicted "bosses" claim they were providing jobs, not committing harm.

Notable Quotes:

• "[Volkswagen executives] spent most of the time just being like, no, no, no. But I'm still a good person...you're really trying to save face in that moment." — Julia Shaw [15:30]
• "We rationalize bad behavior." — Julia Shaw [16:56]

6. Heroes, Villains, and Rationalization

[17:12]

• People see themselves as heroes, justifying harmful actions for a “greater good” (family, community).
• Key question: Why is environmental crime easier to rationalize than, for example, violent crime?
• Social norms and "biospheric values" (connection to the planet) play a role; the less we value the environment, the more easily we rationalize its harm.

7. Externalities, Temporal Discounting, and Psychological Distance

[19:57]

• Environmental crime often lacks immediate, visible victims—consequences are distant in space and time (externalities).
• "Temporal discounting" leads people to disregard long-term harm in favor of immediate benefit.
• Psychological interventions (climate fiction, letters from "your future self") can help bring future impacts to the present for better decisions.

Notable Quotes:
"We know temporal discounting is when we discount future outcomes and prefer ones that are closer…”
— Julia Shaw [20:55]

8. Systemic Failures vs. Individual Decisions

[27:48]

• Regulatory and legal system loopholes allow crimes to occur (e.g., insuring blacklisted ships).
• However, Shaw emphasizes individual choices underpin systemic failures—someone is always making that pivotal decision.

9. The Six Pillars of Environmental Crime

[30:46]
Shaw identifies six core psychological/situational drivers repeatedly found in environmental crimes:

1. Ease – It's easier/cheaper to break rules than follow them.
2. Impunity – Actual or perceived lack of punishment encourages law-breaking.
3. Greed – Pursuit of personal profit to others' detriment.
4. Desperation – Poverty/vulnerability forces people into illegal activities.
5. Rationalization – Justifying bad behavior as acceptable ("I'm not that bad because…")
6. Conformity – Doing it because everyone else is; driven by peer or organizational norms.

10. How to Intervene & Create Change

[35:12]

• It's not "just greed": Other human factors play pivotal roles; oversimplifying leads to bad policy and missed interventions.
• Policies can target any pillar—e.g., making lawful behavior easier, increasing enforcement to reduce impunity, supporting regulators.
• Recognize often-overlooked heroes: regulators, lawyers, scientists who quietly dismantle crime systems behind the scenes, not just activists.

Notable Quotes:

• "If you intervene at any [pillar], you are likely to stop these crimes. So you don’t need to tackle all of them at once." — Julia Shaw [36:34]
• "We see some things that are meant to...protecting the planet as red tape, when really they are the only people who are able to pay attention…” — Julia Shaw [36:55]

11. Different Pillars at Different Levels

[38:44]

• Higher-level offenders (CEOs, syndicate leaders): Greed is prevalent.
• Middle-level: Rationalization and conformity matter most.
• Lower-level offenders (e.g., poachers, miners): Desperation is primary driver—often poverty and lack of alternatives.
• Effective interventions can occur at any link in the chain—not just at the front lines.

Notable Quote:
"We need to be careful in how we talk about environmental crimes...the people who actually have, you know, the picks in their hands or the bulldozers, they're usually not the people who are financing it. And if you stop them, there will be more. But if you stop the people, even one level above...this whole industry can exist." — Julia Shaw [41:58]

12. From Eco-Anxiety to Hope

[43:31]

• Shaw has moved from pessimism to hope after seeing the quietly heroic efforts of regulators, scientists, international bodies, and lawyers.
• She warns against doom-laden reporting: It ignores the many people fighting for progress and change.

Notable Quotes:

• "I came in and years ago I was sad and eco depressed, if you will, and eco anxious. And now I have a huge amount of hope." — Julia Shaw [43:31]
• "Most people now...think that climate change is man made, that we need to do more about it. And most people think about it every single day. And that is a huge shift." — Julia Shaw [44:43]

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On rationalization:
  "They asked them, as psychologists went in and asked them, what do you think about your crimes? And they're like, well, I was giving them jobs. Basically, I'm a good person."
  — Julia Shaw [15:55]

• On “throwing the book”:
  "He said you often need to take all the books off the shelf and throw it at them and then throw the shelf itself..."
  — Julia Shaw [13:26]

• On hope:
  "It's really encouraging also when you meet these people and you realize that there's so many people fighting on our sides that we have a chance and there's so much being done and all of us can join in."
  — Julia Shaw [37:38]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:40] – What is criminal psychology?
• [05:02] – Linking criminal psychology to environmental issues
• [07:06] – Crime framing for environmental harm
• [14:00] – Volkswagen Dieselgate: guilt & rationalization
• [19:57] – Externalities, future thinking, and climate fiction
• [27:48] – Systemic failures and individual choice
• [30:46] – The six pillars of environmental crime
• [35:12] – Solutions: interventions at different points
• [38:44] – Desperation vs. greed at different levels
• [43:31] – Shaw’s perspective shift: from eco-anxiety to optimism

Tone and Style

The conversation is engaging, thoughtful, and occasionally wry, balancing psychological insight with practical policy discussion. Both host and guest stress complexity over simplicity, and ultimately end on a message of cautious, actionable hope.

Final Thought

Green Crime reframes environmental harm as a human, criminal phenomenon, not an abstract inevitability. Understanding why people commit environmental crimes—and how systems and psychology facilitate or prevent them—is key to effective climate action. Shaw’s six-pillars framework offers practical entry points for tackling global environmental challenges, emphasizing that anyone, from regulators to the public, can be part of the solution.