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Intelligence Squared
Women’s Prize-winner Rachel Clarke in conversation with Rob Delaney (Part Two)
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- [00:00]
A
Hi everyone. I'm Conor, head of Programming at Intelligence Squared. As we head into the festive season, what is for many of us, a time of comfort, celebration and gatherings round a table. Most of us won't think twice about the clean water running from our taps that make it all possible. But for millions of people around the world, this is something they simply don't have. That's why here at the Intelligence Squared podcast, we're proud to partner with WaterAid, a charity working to change this and to shine a spotlight on something that connects us all. In a special episode of our podcast, journalist Coco Khan speaks to Amica Godfrey, Water AIDS Executive Director of International Programs. Amica has spent more than 25 years working across the world in the water, sanitation and hygiene sector. She shares powerful stories about how clean water keeps children in school, helps mothers support their families or run businesses and and unlocks potential for entire communities. To hear the full conversation, just search Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts and listen to the episode titled Everything Starts with water released on 17th December. Listen to the full episode now on the Intelligence Squared podcast. Right now, there are talented people out there who could take your company to the next level. Do you want to hope they see your job post before your competitors or do you want to match with them with Indeed Sponsored Jobs Hiring Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other sites. Give your job the best chance to be seen with Indeed sponsored jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Sponsored Jobs Boost your posts for quality quality candidates so you can reach the exact people you want faster and it makes a big difference. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a hire than non sponsored jobs because you reach a bigger pool of quality candidates. Join the 1.6 million companies that sponsored their jobs with Indeed. When we're hiring, we find being specific about what we need really matters. With Indeed sponsored jobs, you can set detailed requirements such as experience, level, skills, industry background and actually get candidates who meet them. Instead of sifting through applications that don't fit, we end up with people who've done the work before and can prove it. That precision is what makes the difference for us. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, you only pay for results. No monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. Just a boost whenever you need to find quality talent fast. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now in the minute I've been talking to you. Companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed. According to Indeed Data Worldwide, spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com IntelligenceSquared just go to Indeed.com Intelligence Squared right now and support our show by sending saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com intelligencesquared terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with Indeed.
- [03:45]
B
Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. For this episode. We're rejoining for part two of our recent live event with palliative care Doctor author and broadcaster Rachel Clark Clarke joined us recently at the Kiln Theatre to discuss her Women's Prize winning book, the Story of A Unforgettable Exploration of compassion, family and Medical Innovation. She was in conversation with actor and comedian Rob Delaney. Now, if you haven't heard Part one, we recommend jumping back an episode to get up to speed. Let's rejoin the conversation live at the Kiln Theatre in London.
- [04:25]
C
You write about the play specialists and nurses involved in Max's care and the many small acts of kindness they performed. This is a funny question. How crucial are they to medical outcomes, such as in Max's case? I say that's funny because I know the answer to that because I've spent a lot of time with play specialists. But yeah, let's talk about them.
- [04:48]
B
Yeah, that's a very good question. So. Medicine sometimes, rarely in medicine, the only thing that matters in the moment is technical prowess. So a good example of that is cpr. If someone collapses on a football pitch because they have got a heart condition no one knows about and their heart has stopped, the thing that is going to save their life is really good quality cpr. And nothing matters in that moment, but how good is the team doing the cpr? So if a relative of mine is in hospital and they need cpr, I don't care what those people are like as human beings. I just want them to be good at doing the CPR because that increases the chances of my loved ones surviving. So occasionally in medicine, the only thing that matters is technical skill, but almost always it's more complicated than that. Medicine should be about ensuring that we as healthcare professionals do the best job we can of enabling this particular patient in front of us to live their life as much as possible and for as long as possible in the way that they want to. So the only person who should be in the centre of the room is the patient, whether they are an adult or a child. Most of the time, if you're a patient, it tends not to be like that. I think the only two branches of medicine where we really get the fact that medicine is about humanity as well as science is in pediatrics and palliative care. The start of life and the end of life. We know when we're dealing with children. Play specialists are literally the people sometimes that keep a child alive more than anything else. And bless him, Max is a prime example. Max spent so long on the transplant list, was so desperately ill, could feel himself fading, was so unhappy. He reached a point that he wanted me to write about in the book because he thought it was important that people knew this. He reached a point as a nine year old boy where he wanted to die because he couldn't endure living on the transplant list any longer. And he even tried to harm himself by pulling out the wires of the little electrical pump that was keeping his heart beating. And they got infected and no one could understand why they got infected. And then months and months later, he confessed to his mum what he had done. That shows you how important the humanity of medicine is, that that little child, he never told anyone he felt like that, but he felt he had to try that. A play specialist is the person who can take a desperately unhappy child who wants to be playing football and hasn't been able to be unhooked from a drip for the last six months, can work with that child and make them feel joy again and make them remember what it's like to laugh again. And they can use play to teach a child what their operation is going to be like. What's going to happen to me? How do we explain it? You do it with a teddy bear and you dress them up and you show them what's going to happen. Honestly, the men and women who are play specialists in the NHS should all instantly have their salaries doubled and be championed, because what they do is incredible. And I think sometimes it is almost literally life saving. And I think adults need them too.
- [09:05]
C
I can attest to that. The biggest smile that I ever saw in my life, and it was measurable because half my son's face was paralyzed. So if he smiled, you could measure it. And I thought he was going to damage the half of his face that worked because he was smiling so big when they just brought a little dog onto the cancer ward and he got to play with that little dog. I've never seen Joy like that before or since.
- [09:35]
B
So this is Important. If any of you ever have a really sick relative in hospital and they may be approaching their end of their life, if they have a pet that they love at home and it literally doesn't matter what the pet is, you need to say you want to speak to the palliative care team and we will get that pet in. We want Scott, an actual bull, a prize winning bull, into the hospice gardens because the wife of a farmer who was dying in the hospice, we asked him if there was anything that he really loved that would cheer him up and she said, yes, you'll have to bring his bull in. He loves that bull far more than me. So we did. So, honestly, animals in hospital are just the most beautiful example of where the thing that is the powerful medicine at the bedside is not the drugs, it's not the clever doctors, it is anyone showing kindness and compassion and appreciation to a patient of the fact that they're a human being and they want to cuddle a dog because they're feeling sick or a bull because they're weird.
- [10:50]
C
I mean, yeah, I mean, and you can, I mean, when people decide, you know what, it's time for hospice, how then they wind up living longer because they're happier and they're having more fun. I mean, it's magical stuff. I only want to talk about palliative care now, but I'm going to continue talking about the book. You talk about the common trope that surgeons are psychopaths. There is a great portrait of Max's surgeon, Asif Hassan, who seems to be the complete opposite of those swashbuckling egotistic surgeons of the 1960s. What did you learn about him and modern surgeons? And then the next question, it's a two parter. Are surgeons psychopaths?
- [11:33]
B
So taking second question first, one or two of them, definitely I have met one or two who are psychopaths, but the vast, vast majority are not. You definitely have to have a really unusual ability to cope with pressure to be a good surgeon, especially a heart surgeon, because the vessels around the heart are the biggest vessels in the body. So if you cut into the aorta, the blood would spurt up almost to the ceiling above us. You know, you don't have time to fix problems.
- [12:09]
C
It's why I never do that.
- [12:10]
B
Absolutely. Don't try this at home. So in order. And if you think for a moment of the surgery that Max had, what Asif Hassan had to do was literally take a big pair of scissors and cut the vessels that connected Max's heart in his body and lift it out and dump it in a dish. And now here is a boy on the table who has an empty chest cavity. And the only way in which he is going to survive is if you have got enough surgical skill to stitch the new heart well enough into that chest cavity. So which of us would be brave enough to do that? I would not want to do that. I would definitely double stitch it. I would definitely not be able to do that. The enormity of what surgeons do under pressure requires a certain kind of steeliness that is uncommon. But surgeons these days are definitely not the kind of egotistical Christian Bernards of old. So 1960s Christian Bernard performed the first heart transplant and became a kind of global superstar. He was this sort of womanizing, swashbuckling. Absolutely. The center of his universe was. It was definitely Christian Barnard, not his patients. But now surgeons tend to be much more aware of the fact that surgery is a team effort. And Asif Hasanis, especially, he's one of the best heart surgeons in Europe. He's a brilliant, brilliant man. And he is also the kind of man who picks up litter on the way home when he spent the night operating because he cares about the streets of the neighborhood where he lives. And he is the kind of man who, when asked who the most important person is in a transplant, will look you straight in the eye and say, there's only one person who is important in a transplant, and that is the donor. The donor and the donor's family are doing something exceptional and remarkable. And that act of altruism is the bedrock on which everyone else's efforts rest. They're the only important people. And he describes his part in the journey of a heart as being a bit like a bus conductor, a bus driver. So other people have driven the bus to get the heart to this point, and all their jobs are as important as his. And he has the job of driving it through the surgery. And then other people take over and he's irrelevant. And what a wonderful attitude to have.
- [15:18]
C
That's beautiful. Could you tell us about Max and Kira's Law? They have changed legal history and the law around organ donation. Can you talk a little bit about the campaign and what impact this law has had?
- [15:33]
B
Yeah. So the way in which the law changed was to make organ donation a phenomenon that's known as presumed consent. So until Max and Kira's Law, it was assumed that you didn't want to donate your organs unless you proactively opted in. And now the assumption is unless you proactively opt out, you do want to Donate your organs. In practice, always, the NHS will talk to the family. So you wouldn't retrieve somebody's organs if their family said, no, we don't want you to do that. But the idea of the law is to make it normal and typical to donate conversations in the hope that it will increase the numbers of people donating organs. So. So at any one time, there's over 8,000 people on the waiting list waiting for an organ, and every day some of them will die and some of those people will be children because there aren't enough organs. So there is evidence that the change in the law has increased the numbers of people donating, which is an extraordinary gift to achievement of Kira's and her family that just keeps on giving. But the most important thing by far, and this is a quick plug to all of you in the audience, is actually to have the conversations. Tell your family members what you want. Do you want to donate your organs? Just let them know. Put the kettle on. And in the time it takes to make a cup of tea, say, by the way, this is what I want, and please, please ask your kids what they want. People often think you can't ask a young child that question, but if you tell anybody Max and Kira's story, little children get it. And almost always they will say, duh. Why are you asking me the question? Of course I want to donate my organs. I asked one of my children when he was 7 and he looked at me like I was mad because obviously he would want to help other people. And Kira's mum goes into schools and talks to school children about organ donation. So find out from your kids if that's what they would want. If a family knows what their loved one's wishes are, then 90% of those families will say yes to donation. But if they don't know because they've never asked them, only 60% of those families say yes. So that's hundreds and hundreds of people a year whose lives we could be saving. So just ask the question, please. Buy Rob's book, but ask the question more.
- [18:26]
C
Just to say, we will be coming to the audience Q and A portion soon, so do be thinking of your questions. How is Max doing now?
- [18:38]
B
Max? Well, he is huge. He's over six foot. Yep. He's done his GCSEs. He is. He's. He's thinking of applying to join his local fire brigade. He likes to do mixed martial arts, which I interpreted as kickboxing, but apparently it's not quite as dangerous as kickboxing. He likes to go to gigs and concerts. His mum tries to ask him to take his hand sanitizer with him. I don't know if he ever does that. I think that might be the least of the risks he gets up to. So he is basically this wonderful, thriving, gorgeous teenage boy who is living this beautiful life because of this amazing gift that happened seven years ago. And it's not easy having a transplant. You have to take your meds at the same time every day. You're always living with the risk of rejection. We know that transplants are not forever, so a heart transplant has an average lifespan. But Max is hoping that he his heart will have an exceptionally long lifespan. That's a lot for a teenager to live with, but he is living his life and the one thing he loves doing is going fishing with his dad. And the two of them sit there and think about the world and have their hearts to hearts, don't you?
- [20:18]
C
I was so happy to meet his parents before this and I hugged them and what a beautiful family.
- [20:30]
A
Hi everyone. I'm Connor, head of programming at Intelligence Squared. As we head into the festive season, what is for many of us, a time of comfort, celebration and gatherings round a table? Most of us won't think twice about the clean water running from our taps that make it all possible. But for millions of people around the world, this is something they simply don't have. That's why here at the Intelligence Squared podcast, we're proud to partner with WaterAid, a charity working to change this and to shine a spotlight on something that connects us all. In a special episode of our podcast, journalist Coco Kahn speaks to Amica Godfrey, WaterAid's executive director of International Programs. Amica has spent more than 25 years working across the world in the water, sanitation and hygiene sector. She shares powerful stories about how clean water keeps children in school, helps mothers support their families or run businesses, and unlocks potential for entire communities. To hear the full conversation, just search Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts and listen to the episode titled Everything Starts with water released on 17th December. Listen to the full episode now on the Intelligence Squared Podcast.
- [21:46]
B
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All?
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- [23:59]
C
What is the one thing you would like readers to take away from this book?
- [24:06]
B
So we've done the most important thing. Talk to your families. Please. Please talk to your families. Tell them this story. Ask your kids their views. And the other thing that I think I took from this story and I think really matters, especially at the moment, is that we are hearing so many awful stories at the moment. Stories of war and killing and conflict and endless pursuit of wealth and power. You look at what's happening in Gaza, Ukraine, some of the things that are happening in this country, and it is easy to feel as though humanity is on a kind of fast road to nowhere. You know, the world is on fire. There's more war at the moment in the world than at any other time since the Second World War, which I think is a terrifying statistic. So it's easy to look at all of that and think human beings are terrible and the world is bleak. But I think that other stories, and this is one of those stories, are every bit as emblematic of human nature as those big picture, horrible news dominating stories that we hear so much of. Yeah, babies are starving in Gaza and that is horrific. But it is also the case that families like Kira's family, the Bull family, right now, there is a family having a conversation with an NHS team about whether or not they would like to give gift, their loved ones, organs to other people. And they have never experienced anything as traumatic and devastating and horrifically painful in their lives as they're feeling right now in this moment. And they are going to find it in themselves, just as Kira's family did, to say, my world is imploding, but I'm going to stand up for humanity and the people around me, and I'm going to say yes to donation because I care about other people and I can't stop my pain, but I might be able to save other people from that pain. And in this audience, we have two young women whose decision saved a slightly older couple from a terrible, terrible, lifelong anguish of losing their little boy. That is human beings, too. And we are good and we are decent, and when Kush comes to the shove, we stand up and we say, I'm going to choose each other. And that's a story that's worth telling.
- [27:09]
C
Thank you, Rachel. Thank you very much. That's wonderful. Wow. Let's hear it for Rachel, ladies and gentlemen. Okay, so we're going to open it up to questions now. Does anybody have any questions? We'll send a mic over to you. I see one right here down front.
- [27:35]
B
Hi. You've both written books that have really positively changed my life, and I know that you've done that for lots of other people. How does it feel to have done that? And is it a bit of a burden to have that responsibility of knowing what you've done to people? We were talking about exactly this earlier. Do you want to answer that first or shall I?
- [28:03]
C
Well, I mean, are you asking Rachel that question? Is that right? Okay. I tried to pass it up. No, no. We were talking about this earlier, and I alluded to it earlier myself. I would say with my book.
- [28:22]
B
For.
- [28:22]
C
My own mental and emotional health, if I could do it again, I would have waited a little bit longer. I heard a quote recently from somebody who said, you want to write from the scar, not from the wound, and I think it would have been better. I don't think that that mistake will be fatal to me, but it did hurt a lot because I wrote that book. And then I found out about every other child in the country in the English speaking world that died. And that was very, very difficult. So it taught me some things about sharing and about creativity and storytelling and when to do it and how to. And what scope to do it. So I learned some hard lessons with that book. And what I said to you earlier was, I suspect I'll get into the black with that book one day. As a bereaved parent, my story is no better, but it's also no worse than any other bereaved parents. So it can be useful to others. I am aware of that, that objectively, that book can help other bereaved parents and people around bereaved parents and siblings. So I think one day I'll be say, you know what? I'm glad I wrote that, and we're getting there. But yeah, that's the honest answer to that question, is you got to be careful when and how you tell these stories because they can come at a cost.
- [29:52]
B
Yeah. And I think for me, my writing feels like an extension of medicine in lots of ways. And one of the things that you do as a doctor, especially as a palliative care doctor, is hear and encourage and invite patients and their families to talk to you about what they are most frightened of, what they are most distressed by. And you're doing that to try to think about how, in the broadest sense, you may be able to help them. But that comes with a cost as well, because it is so powerful to sit alongside someone as they share their distress with you. It's an, you know, and you don't need medical training to do it. We all do that with our friends and family. It's an incredibly powerful thing to do, but it does take a toll, and you have to figure out ways to replenish yourself. I think with this book, it was not my story. I was painfully conscious of the fact that it was the Ball and Johnson family's story. And I had a burden of responsibility to tell it in the right way, in a way that was sensitive, respectful, that honored Kira and that tried to be. Draw good from this narrative, but that was different. It wasn't my story. But when I have written about things that are traumatic, you know, and you said, I wrote a book about working in the COVID pandemic, which was very, very traumatic. And I had a similar thing with Rob. Every time I talk to people, NHS staff would just be in absolute tears talking about their trauma on Covid wards, working with patients who are d. It's a hard thing to do. But it also feels incredibly important because if you experience something traumatic, whether it's working through a pandemic or the death of your child, so often people are frightened of saying the wrong thing, so they hide away and they don't say anything at all. Sometimes they'll literally cross the street, street to get away from you. And you write about this in your book. And so if you are able to do the opposite and you are able to say, tell me how you're doing, tell me what this is like, I may not know what the right thing is to say, but I damn well want to try and listen, then that can be really powerful and positive and helpful. So it's a really good thing to try and do, but hard.
- [32:52]
C
Yeah, I see a question back there.
- [32:55]
B
So this is a question for both of you. How do you think an adult's journey waiting for a transplant differs from that of a child's journey, as the NHS treat children very differently to adults?
- [33:12]
C
Well, I have no idea. I will quickly say, though, that when we're talking about siblings and children, it's funny. I mean, it's like, guffaw. Funny that we think there's things we can't talk to children about because, like, almost best case scenario, they'll imagine something worse. So tell them the truth, and especially when it comes to issues of life and death, the audacity to think that we've learned something just because we're hairier and softer and have lesser vision, you know, that we know more. You don't learn. The issues of life and death are so massive that adults don't know more or understand more about them than children.
- [34:02]
B
Yeah, completely. It's a really interesting question. I think in many branches of the nhs, the experience you will have as a child is much, much better than as an adult, because it's recognized that, of course, you need to have a play area for kids. You, even now, the NHS recognizes you need to have teenage specific resources for teenage patients. Hugely important. So if you're on a children's ward, everything is set up to be about the child's whole experience. Whereas in many ways, if you're an adult, everything is set up for the kind of efficient, convenient throughput of patients. And there's very little put in place for the experience of patients. And that's one of the reasons why the appalling underfunding of the hospice sector is so terrible. Because the one time when it would be really nice to think we cared about the experience of a patient is at the end of their life. So a hospice makes that environment as beautiful and meaningful and full of the potential for little moments of pleasure and joy as it possibly can be, in stark contrast to a hospital. So in general, the differences are very stark. But when it comes to transplant, actually, I think transplant is a really good example of a branch of the NHS where adults are treated superbly well. And I don't know if that's everyone's experience, and there may be people in the audience who haven't had that experience, but I've certainly talked to lots of adult transplant patients who have had such wonderful, patient centered, really intensive care of the humankind that is sometimes sadly lacking in other parts of the nhs. So it's reassuringly similar, I think, in many ways.
- [36:08]
C
I'm just going to jump in and say here that I moved to the UK at the age of 38, I think, and being well into adulthood, you know, after decades of experiencing healthcare in the United States and coming here and finding the nhs, I was like, are you kidding me? I mean, it was so shocking and wonderful and boggles my mind, even in its underfunded stuff state, because the idea that you can have a big medical problem and not be stressing about, you know, you're not on the phone with some functionary being like, do I have coverage to get this thing? You know, and so the amount of hours and days and weeks that it certainly added up to, that I got to spend with my son, you know, who had limited time on this planet, the amount of time that I did not spend on the phone with insurance companies, which I would have in the United States. So the nhs, man, I mean, if you learn about, if you are, you find it in adulthood, you're like, I love it more than, I love it more than normal British people. And I am British now too. I'm a citizen. So. More questions. Hi there. Hello.
- [37:21]
B
Hi. This question is specifically for Rachel. You talk about writing parts of the book were incredibly painful and delving into the history kind of was your relief, I guess. My question is, in day to day life, in your work, when you see very sort of patients that you've gotten attached to, because palliative care is something where you work with patients for a while and the stories can be incredibly painful as well. So I guess I'm asking, what is your respite when you work and how do you stop that from eating away at your humanity and keeping that alive for all of your patients? 2 Answers. So 1 is make sure you try and fill your outside of work time with the good Wholesome stuff. Walking the dog, chatting to the kids, going for a run. You know, all the sort of nice positive, life affirming stuff. Try not to doom scroll. Never ever, ever give a shit about your wrinkles, the fact that you're not a size 8 anymore, all of that stuff. Because you are so lucky to be old. You're so lucky, Rob.
- [38:34]
C
I love getting old.
- [38:35]
B
I love getting old. God, getting old is the best.
- [38:38]
C
Yes, yes.
- [38:40]
B
Getting a bit creaky, my hips are. I swear they're getting arthritic. So lucky to have arthritis in my hips, all of that. But the other answer is I feel like I get more and more simple as I get older. And my simple take now on life is I think that there is a kind of simple, pure arithmetic of living that is inescapable. We can do all kinds of things to try and escape it, but it's inescapable. And that it is as follows. The only thing that matters is the people we love and the things we love. The more we love our people and our beautiful, madly beautiful world that's full of creatures like pangolins and badgers. Got a badge around my neck. And polar bears and aurora borealises. You know, the more you love the world and your people, the more you are opening up your heart to savage, savage, savage pain. Because one way or another, you are going to lose them. They're going to die. You're going to die. We are witnessing the beautiful, miraculous world dying in a thousand ways around us at the moment. So you have two choices. You can say, that's too much, that hurts too much. I'm going to barricade myself up and protect myself and stop loving and try and just protect myself. Or you can say, I refuse to stop loving. All of us get a spark of time, don't we? We are little sparks in a great big black expanse of space. That is it. That is being human. And every moment we don't spend savoring our kids, our parents, our friends, the pangolins, the stuff we love in the world is a little bit of that tiny little spot spark of time we've been granted that we've lost, the only way to live it is to open yourself up and feel the pain that goes hand in hand, inescapably with being human. Henry, your beautiful boy, you loved every moment that you had and that goes hand in hand with your heart bleeding as you lost him. But the only thing, surely that could ever be worse than that is wasting some of that time because you just try and protect yourself. So we've just got to be open to it and recognize that the amount it hurts is exactly the amount it should hurt. It's equal to the amount we love. And that's the arithmetic of life. The pain equals the amount we love. And we just need to keep on doing it.
- [42:05]
C
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you. Dr. Author Rachel Clark. Sorry we went a little bit long. That's my fault. We're going to be upstairs in the foyer signing books. Thank you to Intelligence Squared for organization organizing this evening. That's all from us. Have a good evening. Thank you. Good night.
- [42:29]
B
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by Ginny Hooker and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For ad free episodes and full length recordings. Become a member@intelligencesquared.com membership and to join us at future events, head to intelligencesquared.com attend to see our full events program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us. And Doug, here we have the Limu.
- [43:14]
C
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- [43:27]
A
Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [43:30]
C
Cut the camera.
- [43:31]
B
They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. Been out here all morning. Not a single bite.
- [43:43]
C
Guess the fish finally figured it out. Just like hackers do when Cisco Duo.
- [43:48]
A
Is on guard with Duo's end to end phishing resistance.
- [43:52]
B
Every login, every device, every user stays protected. No hooks, no catches, no bites.
- [43:59]
C
Cisco Duo fishing season is over.
- [44:02]
A
Learn more@duo.com Discover Mercer Labs Museum of.
- [44:07]
B
Art and Technology in New York City, where creativity meets innovation. This holiday season, immerse yourself in a world of interactive exhibits, digital masterpieces and unforgettable experiences. Whether you're with family, friends, or exploring solo, Mercer Labs invites you to see art and technology in a whole new light.
- [44:27]
A
Get your tickets now@mercerlabs.com and redefine your museum experience.
- [44:35]
B
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