Intelligence Squared: Women’s Prize-winner Rachel Clarke in conversation with Rob Delaney (Part Two)
Date: December 22, 2025
Venue: Live at the Kiln Theatre, London
Participants:
- Rachel Clarke (B): Palliative care doctor, author, broadcaster, Women's Prize winner
- Rob Delaney (C): Actor, comedian, writer
- Mia Sorrenti (Host, B)
Episode Overview
This episode continues a moving and insightful live conversation from the Kiln Theatre, where palliative care doctor and author Rachel Clarke and actor/comedian Rob Delaney delve into Clarke’s prize-winning book—a compassionate exploration of medicine, humanity, and family seen through the story of a young heart transplant recipient, Max, and the legacy of organ donation championed through Max and Kira’s Law. Part Two focuses deeply on the value of kindness in medicine, the impact of legislation, personal and professional responsibility in telling stories of trauma, and the beauty and pain at the heart of human experience.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Transformative Role of Play Specialists in Healthcare
[04:25-09:05]
- Rachel Clarke highlights that while clinical skill is sometimes paramount (e.g., CPR), most of medicine is about returning agency and comfort to patients.
- Quote: “Play specialists are literally the people sometimes that keep a child alive more than anything else.” [07:00]
- She shares the gripping example of Max, a young boy on the heart transplant list on the brink of despair, whose spirit was revived by play specialists.
- Play can teach, empower, and offer moments of joy even amid severe illness.
- Rob Delaney shares a personal anecdote:
- Quote: “The biggest smile that I ever saw in my life…was when they just brought a little dog onto the cancer ward and he got to play with that little dog.” [09:05]
- The segment stresses the life-saving impact of compassion, the necessity for such roles to be better recognized and resourced, and how adults benefit just as much from this humanity.
Animals, Joy, and the Human Side of Medicine
[09:34-10:49]
- Rachel urges listeners to advocate for bringing beloved animals into hospitals or hospices to provide comfort to patients, even recalling arranging for a bull to visit a dying farmer in the hospice garden.
- Quote: “Animals in hospital are just the most beautiful example of where the powerful medicine at the bedside is not the drugs...it is anyone showing kindness and compassion…” [10:22]
- Both speakers underscore how prioritizing happiness and familiar comforts can remarkably extend life and well-being, especially in palliative settings.
Surgeons, Stereotypes, and Teamwork
[10:49-15:17]
- Rob inquires into the “surgeons are psychopaths” trope; Rachel responds:
- While a rare few meet this description, the vast majority are not. Modern surgery is deeply team-oriented.
- Quote (describing Max’s surgeon, Asif Hassan): “He is the kind of man who…when asked who the most important person is in a transplant, will...say, there's only one person…that is the donor.” [14:09]
- She revisits the image of new heart surgery: the pressure and skill required, but also the humility of top surgeons today.
Max and Kira’s Law: Changing Organ Donation forever
[15:17-18:26]
- Rachel explains the transition to a “presumed consent” system for organ donation in the UK due to the advocacy of Max and Kira’s families.
- Quote: “There is evidence that the change in the law has increased the numbers of people donating, which is an extraordinary gift to achievement of Kira's and her family that just keeps on giving.” [16:55]
- Rachel urges everyone: have explicit conversations with family about organ donation wishes.
- Quote: “If a family knows what their loved one's wishes are...90% of those families will say yes to donation. But if they don't know...only 60%...That's hundreds and hundreds of people a year whose lives we could be saving.” [17:43]
Max Today: A Life Transformed
[18:37-20:17]
- An update on Max: thriving, over 6 foot tall, finished his exams, active and full of teenage pursuits, living with the challenges of transplantation but seizing life.
- Quote: “He is basically this wonderful, thriving, gorgeous teenage boy who is living this beautiful life because of this amazing gift that happened seven years ago.” [19:21]
Essential Takeaways—On Hope, Kindness, and Humanity
[23:59-27:09]
- Rachel’s main wish for readers: Talk to your families about organ donation, and reflect on our capacity for good.
- Quote: “We are good and we are decent, and when push comes to the shove, we stand up and we say, I'm going to choose each other. And that's a story that's worth telling.” [26:32]
- She contrasts hopeful, altruistic stories like Max and Kira’s with pervasive headlines of conflict and despair, urging us not to overlook the everyday acts of generosity and care.
Audience Q&A Highlights
The Emotional Burden of Telling Personal Stories
[27:35-32:51]
- Audience asks: Is sharing such impactful stories a burden?
- Rob Delaney: Wishes he had waited longer to write about his grief, quoting “Write from the scar, not from the wound.” [28:21]
- Rachel Clarke: Her writing is an extension of medicine—listening to trauma does take a toll, but bringing important stories into the light is essential.
Adults vs. Children: Experience of Transplantation
[32:55-36:07]
-
Children often have more holistic, supportive care settings; for adults, it is more procedural, less about the whole experience.
- Rachel Clarke: “In many branches of the NHS, the experience you’ll have as a child is much, much better than as an adult…But when it comes to transplant...adults are treated superbly well.” [34:01]
-
Rob Delaney praises the NHS, especially having experienced the US healthcare system’s administrative burden during his family's struggles.
Coping With the Pain of Palliative Work
[37:20-42:04]
- Rachel Clarke: Maintains well-being through “good, wholesome stuff” outside work, and by refusing to close herself off from pain.
- Quote: “The only thing that matters is the people we love and the things we love… The pain equals the amount we love. And we just need to keep on doing it.” [41:43]
- Both speakers find meaning in openness and connection, despite the pain inherent to deep love and loss.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)
- “Play specialists are literally the people sometimes that keep a child alive more than anything else.” – Rachel Clarke [07:00]
- “The biggest smile that I ever saw in my life...was when they just brought a little dog onto the cancer ward...” – Rob Delaney [09:05]
- “Animals in hospital are just the most beautiful example of where the powerful medicine at the bedside is not the drugs...it is anyone showing kindness and compassion...” – Rachel Clarke [10:22]
- “There is only one person who is important in a transplant, and that is the donor.” – Rachel Clarke [14:09]
- “We are good and we are decent, and when push comes to the shove, we stand up and we say, I'm going to choose each other. And that's a story that's worth telling.” – Rachel Clarke [26:32]
- “Write from the scar, not from the wound.” – Rob Delaney quoting an unnamed source [28:21]
- “The only thing that matters is the people we love and the things we love… The pain equals the amount we love. And we just need to keep on doing it.” – Rachel Clarke [41:43]
Segment Timestamps
- 04:25 — The irreplaceable value of play specialists in pediatric care
- 09:05 — Therapy animals and real joy in hospital
- 10:49 — The myth and reality of surgeons; teamwork in modern medicine
- 15:17 — Max and Kira’s Law: changing organ donation
- 18:37 — Max’s life after transplant
- 23:59 — Overarching messages of hope and humanity
- 27:35 — Audience Q&A: the personal cost of storytelling, the adult/child transplant difference, coping with work-induced pain
Tone and Language
Open, heartfelt, and unsentimentally moving. Both Clarke and Delaney speak candidly, with flashes of humor and humility, emphasizing the need for honest conversations, kindness, and the power of small, human acts in both medicine and everyday life.
Final Thoughts
This episode stands as a testament to the intertwined beauty and pain of life, the centrality of compassion in both medicine and relationships, and the quietly revolutionary power of turning toward each other in moments of greatest need. Rachel Clarke and Rob Delaney, both touched personally and professionally by medical trauma, offer listeners not only practical advocacy (talk to your family; support organ donation) but profound encouragement to live—and to love—fully, fiercely, and with courage.