← Intelligent Machines (Audio)
Intelligent Machines (Audio)
IM 845: Pregnant With 83 Digital Assistants - Are AIs Really Alien Minds?
02:49:58
Are AIs Really Alien Minds?
Loading summary
Transcript1,231 lines
- [00:00]
Jeff Jarvis
It's time for Intelligent Machines. Jeff Jarvis is here. Paris Martineau and a very special guest. We're thrilled to have Kevin Kelly, who is a legend in the business, one of the founding editors of Wired. He's still there as their senior maverick, the author of many books, and a man with a very unusual and, I think, very accurate take on AI in the future. Stay tuned. Kevin Kelly, next on Intelligent Machines, podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit. This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis. Episode 845, recorded Wednesday, November 12, 2025. Pregnant with 83 digital assistants, it's time for Intelligent Machines, the show we cover artificial intelligence, robotics, and all the smart jiminy crickets surrounding us day in, day out. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you. Before we get to our great guest this week, I give you Paris.
- [01:03]
So excited about our guest.
- [01:05]
That is Jeff Jarvis, who cannot contain his excitement. He is the emeritus professor of journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University now at Montclair State University in New Jersey, and of course, SUNY Stony Brook. He's the author of the Gutenberg Parenthesis and magazine. And if his bio gets any longer, we're not gonna get Kevin Kelly on the show, so I'll stop there. But welcome, Jeff. Good to see you. Paris Martineau, of course, investigative journalist at the Consumer Reports, which we all love. It's great to see you, Paris, back from your jaunt to northern New England. We'll talk about that.
- [01:45]
Paris Martineau
Yes, I have much to say, but now is not the time.
- [01:48]
Jeff Jarvis
She has returned bearing a burning Pinto, bearing many gifts.
- [01:54]
Paris Martineau
Many gifts for myself and for you guys to revel in.
- [01:57]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, good. That's all I care. Just want to revel. Now, let me introduce our guest. As you said, Jeff, always a thrill to talk to Kevin Kelly. Do you. Do you want to introduce him, Jeff, since he's.
- [02:09]
No, no. You should. You should.
- [02:10]
All right, man. I guess my first experience with Kevin Kelly was the Whole Earth catalog. Back in my youth that Stuart Brand did, Kevin was very much involved in was the quintessential pre Internet catalog of great things. Steve Jobs referred to it in a very famous speech. The tagline at the end of the last Whole Earth catalog, stay hungry, stay foolish. Then founded the hackers conference in 1984, served as a founding board member of the well, which I was on the Whole Earth electronic link, which was an amazing online community, kind of pre Internet. Although I remember Kevin dropping out of the well into a UNIX prompt and in my first experience of the Internet was using Archie and Gopher on the Wells servers. So that was amazing.
- [03:04]
Kevin Kelly
It was the first public access to the Internet.
- [03:06]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. And it blew me away. He is the co chair of the Long now foundation, which is a really interesting. Is a really interesting project to think about things long term. And the long bets. And of course that clock of the.
- [03:20]
Paris Martineau
Long now is the clock and a mountain.
- [03:23]
Jeff Jarvis
Is this still. Is it still. Of course it is. It's gotta be.
- [03:26]
Paris Martineau
Is it still been 10,000 years yet? Liam?
- [03:28]
Kevin Kelly
It's just about started to tick almost. We've had a couple of trial ticks.
- [03:34]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, so it isn't actually operating yet?
- [03:37]
Kevin Kelly
No, not fully.
- [03:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Interesting. It's a really. Well, there's so many interesting projects. I could really get stuck in all of this. You've been reviewing a cool tool every day for 20 plus years, kind of with the whole earth access to tools philosophy. He's also written a couple of books about things he has learned in his life, which every young person, Paris Martineau should read. His newest book though, I'm really excited about. You've got an art book. You've been going to Asia for 50 years.
- [04:11]
Kevin Kelly
Yes.
- [04:11]
Jeff Jarvis
Taking pictures.
- [04:13]
Kevin Kelly
Yes.
- [04:14]
Jeff Jarvis
And this is your substack, kk.org Tell us about the new book.
- [04:19]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah. Well, the new book is called Colors of Asia and it's based on the 300,000 images that took over years in the most remote parts of Asia. And so are there are these really kind of interesting esoteric stuff of things that are disappearing from Asia. Customs, ceremonies, costumes. But they're weirdly and funly all arranged by color. So there's something about paying attention that I think is kind of cool because you have all these images that aren't related to each other geographically, but only by their color.
- [04:59]
Paris Martineau
And.
- [04:59]
Kevin Kelly
And that kind of forces a new association in your mind. So Colors of Asia available now.
- [05:05]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow. Where is that available? Is that on your website?
- [05:08]
Kevin Kelly
It's on our website. KK.org KK.org There's a little Shopify. I can send you a link later on.
- [05:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Okay. Well, people go there and there's a lot of other things you're going to want to read@kk.org because this is an image.
- [05:23]
Kevin Kelly
The background image is an image I took in the Himalayas. Oh, in Kashmir.
- [05:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Unbelievable. Yeah, just gorgeous.
- [05:33]
What do you shoot with?
- [05:34]
Yeah, I was just going to ask.
- [05:35]
Kevin Kelly
What. What do I shoot with?
- [05:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [05:37]
Kevin Kelly
These days I'd show you the best camera I've ever used in my life.
- [05:41]
Paris Martineau
I figured I'm shooting in the native camera app or do you?
- [05:49]
Kevin Kelly
It's. It doesn't matter. It's by far the best camera I have ever owned.
- [05:53]
Paris Martineau
Wow.
- [05:54]
Kevin Kelly
And that's partly because I never owned a professional level camera. I always shot in kind of amateur level because it doesn't really matter. And of course, a lot of those images were shot with film, which is horrible for capturing images. It's grainy, it's very low res, it's very low light sensitive. The digital sensors are superior in every way. So this is. This is all that I carry now, even when I'm photographing. Seriously.
- [06:28]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow.
- [06:29]
Kevin Kelly
This one, the 17 Pro with the telephoto lens, it's like. It's like the best.
- [06:36]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow. This is one of the things I love about Kevin. He loves technology. You love technology?
- [06:41]
Kevin Kelly
Well, yeah, yeah. I'm pretty, which I should say. I try everything, but I only keep a little bit. I'm pretty selective.
- [06:49]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [06:50]
Kevin Kelly
I review lots of things. I feel no obligation to use things that aren't really benefiting me. And I've been wrong about lots of stuff. One of the things you didn't mention is I organized the first public access to the VR in Cyberthon. We had this thing where for 24 hours, if you bought the ticket, you could come try all the best VR stuff. J. Lanier's vpl, everybody's. And I kind of thought that that was going to be coming really soon. But each time I try on these headsets, I don't want to keep. Keep them on.
- [07:30]
Jeff Jarvis
Exactly.
- [07:31]
Why do you think that is my complaint? Exactly.
- [07:34]
Kevin Kelly
I think they have to be magic glasses.
- [07:36]
Jeff Jarvis
I think I agree 100%.
- [07:39]
Kevin Kelly
They can hear everything. They can have senses. You can. I mean, they have to be really lightweight and unobtrusive. They're just too bulky. The technology is just not ready. It's like having cell phones versus having smartphones. We just haven't gotten there yet. I think we will, but we haven't yet.
- [07:55]
Jeff Jarvis
It's like having a Windows CE phone. Exactly right. So I wanted to get you on and Jeff wanted to get you. We all wanted to get you on because of your, I think, unique take on AI, which I think is the most sensible thing I've ever read. We're, you know, we debate a lot on this show about AI and its value, its merits, whether it is overhyped, whether it will be truly useful, whether it's a bubble, whether the cost of the environment is too great. But you have a different point of view, which I kind of like. I don't Want to characterize it for you, I'll let you do that. But what I thought was really interesting is that you think of AI not as artificial human intelligence. They're artificial aliens, you say? Yeah, tell me about that.
- [08:51]
Kevin Kelly
There's several things wound up in there. One is, as I kind of insist at least to myself, to talk about AI's plural, because I don't think there is this one uniform generic universal AI. I think it's like machines. We don't talk about the machine in our life, doing stuff for the machine. We have machines and they're all different. They have different talents, they have different abilities, they have different regulatory regimes, they have different business models. A jet is very different from a flashlight. They're both machines. And AIs are going to be like that in the sense that the possibility space of possible minds is very, very large. Huge space of possible intelligences and minds and ours, we'll see in time, is at the edge. It's not a universal, it's not at the center. We've never been at the center of anything. Humans are always at the edge. We're not at the center of evolution, we're not the center of the solar system, we're not the center of the galaxy. And we are at the center of intelligences. And so people think of intelligence as a kind of like an element. And I think it's more like a compound that it's a compound made up of elemental particles of cognition. We don't have the periodic table of those cognitions yet. We're working on that. But we combine them in different ways to make a compound. And our compounded thing that we call intelligence, we don't really know what it is, is one of many, many types. And it's not a ladder where they're going up like decibels. It's a very large space. And animals have another kind of a compound using some of the same cognitive elements and some that are different. And AIs that we're going to engineer are going to have others. Combinations of those that do will do different things. And at some point we may have consciousnesses that also are high dimensional space and we'll give it to some of them. And so we might have beings that can think and have some self reflection and stuff. But the point is, is that they will be in a different space. There'll be like, I don't know, like Spock on Star Trek. He was not human. He was aware. He could make jokes, he could try to make jokes. He could kind of, yeah, kind of, and, and so he had a different sense of humor. And so the best way to think of the things that we're making is that they can achieve much. They, they have different kinds of intelligences. And, and therefore our relationship to them will be similar to aliens. And these are artificial aliens in the sense that they aren't necessarily like above or below us, they're other. And that's the whole point of the fact that they don't think like us. They may arrive at the same answer that we get to sometimes, but they may get, they get to it in a different path, which is important.
- [11:58]
Jeff Jarvis
Do you think we're misguided trying to make them more like us?
- [12:02]
Kevin Kelly
No, I think it's natural that in the beginning, because we have only one example, and so we want to try to do it. And then there's another advantage too of trying to make them like us, which is we like this is interface, the human interface, the human emotional interface is something that we don't have to be trained for. There's a gravity to it. We're naturally attracted to it. So the more it's like us, the easier it is for us to work with it. And so we're going to make some like that that we have to interface. But 99% of the AIs that we're going to make we will never encounter at all. They're going to be agent to agent. They're going to be dealing with other AIs. 99% of the AI compute cycle will be completely invisible to us, which is good because technologies succeed by becoming invisible. It's when they're invisible that they've really succeeded. So we don't actually want to deal with most of the AI in the world. There's only a few 1% that we're ever going to deal with. And there we kind of want them to have some human like scale, some human like interfaces. And so there will be some attempts, but we can't actually, even if we wanted to, we can't actually make them think exactly like AI, because I think the Church Turing hypothesis is wrong. The Church Turing hypothesis in computer science says that given infinite tape, infinite time, all computation is identical. It's universal. Well, the difference is that there isn't infinite storage and infinite time. If you have real time and limited resources, computation is not identical. It actually matters what substrate things are run on. And if you are trying to run intelligence on wet neurons, it will not be the same run on dry silicon. It's just not going to be the same. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't make it identical to humans. But I understand the reason for making it like humans. But in fact most of the ones we're going to make are going to deliberately engineer it to not be like us. The LLMs don't think like us because none of us could possibly memorize all the things on the Internet. But Ken, it's inhuman, it's alien. And the thing is that in the world of today, the engines of innovation and wealth is thinking different, think different. And we need these AIs to help us think different. If we're all connected 24 hours a day to each other, we need the help of thinking different. Otherwise we're going to have group think and there are going to be problems, scientific problems, business problems that we and our own kinds of minds cannot solve. And we need to work with other minds that we invent to help us solve the problems that our own kinds of minds can't solve. So there's many reasons to make them different.
- [15:08]
Paris Martineau
One idea you've espoused is that the Doomers are kind of one of the biggest proponents of AI hype, which I feel like is a bit of a counterintuitive narrative face. Could you explain a little bit?
- [15:22]
Kevin Kelly
So the, the hype version is that there is this immediate fast takeoff that you invent an AI that can invent an AI smarter than itself and then you have this ad infinitum where it's doing that, but each time it does, it does the cycle faster. You have to have almost instant godhood and that either the new AI guy will do either two things, kill us all or make us immortal, nothing in between. And so I think there's lots of things wrong with that view. And I would begin with the idea I called thinkism. Thinkism is this idea that you only need intelligence to solve things. I think intelligence is way overrated. And so most middle aged guys who like to think, who think that thinking is the most important thing in the world, and if you took the brightest person who ever lived, maybe Einstein, and put him in a cage with a tiger who lives, it's not the smartest person. We've all been present with founder types and other great leaders. They're not the smartest people in the world, but they get the things done. We need other qualities besides iq. I think there's an overemphasis on IQ as the way things happen, the way things that are needed to happen in the world. One of the things that we see right now I think is a little dangerous, is we have, as we all know, the best adoption of the current LLM models has been coders, right? They're coding and all the AI companies are using massive amounts of AI code to generate the next version. But what I'm concerned with is that you have AI code that's optimized to write AI code that's optimized to write A.I. code and you have this convergence on a very narrow kind of AI that's really good for making AI, right? Not good for anything else. And so I mean right now the models that we have have been trained on knowledge. They're incredibly knowledge based. The kind, again, the varieties. There's all these varieties of intelligence and AIs and the variety that we've made so far is knowledge base AI. It's not based on reality, it's based on words about reality. And so it's really good at answering knowledge questions. It has a little bit of reasoning which is still knowledge based reasoning, but it lacks all kinds of things. The reason why we don't have robots in our lives is because it doesn't have any good sense of common sense. It doesn't have a good sense of physical spatial awareness and it hasn't been trained on those things. And so what we want is to broaden the varieties of kinds of AIs that we have. And I think the idea of just making knowledge intelligence and that would be a fast takeoff and then that would generate an AI that could then solve all our problems or else kill us all, I think is a fantasy, it's a romantic idea. And furthermore, there's no evidence at all that this is happening. Ray Kurzweil likes to talk about exponential growth of intelligence. Well, there hasn't been any exponential increase in say the reasoning. What there's been has been an exponential increase in the compute. The inputs necessary make a fairly small increase from GPT4 to 5. And so it's an inverse relationship with the happening going on. And so there isn't an exponential rise in the abilities of the output. It isn't increasing with orders of magnitude each cycle. It's very, very small in part because we don't even know or have any measurement for what something outside of human intelligence would even look like. So for those reasons I think I don't believe that the doomer or the hypers version of AI is happening. And it's the doomers who believe this most. And they're the ones who actually promote the idea that this is going to happen instantly, that it will happen so fast that we won't be able to control and that once it starts, we're out of control and we have no options. And there's simply no evidence at all that anything like that is even beginning or any near beginning.
- [20:25]
Jeff Jarvis
We're talking to Kevin Kelly. He is one of the founding. If he's the founding executive editor of Wired magazine still at Wired magazine, where he is their maverick editor. He has his own substack and many books. You could find them@kk.org including the new book the Colors of Asia. You know, it's really interesting. The first time I think we talked on Twitter, Kevin, was back when your book what Technology Wants came out.
- [20:53]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah.
- [20:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Which is 15, 16 years. It was a while ago. Nine years ago, in the Inevitable, you talked about cognifying, which you define as embedding AI into every. This is not 2016. You're talking about this into everything we manufacture. I think you have. I don't know if it was your intent or not, but you've been fairly prescient about the future and about AI. Do you feel like we're living out kind of that. That roadmap that you expected back in 2010?
- [21:26]
Kevin Kelly
You know, 2010, things were moving pretty slowly in AI, and I kind of thought that that would be the rate that they would go.
- [21:32]
Jeff Jarvis
We'd lived through a few AI winners by then.
- [21:34]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah, yeah, there have been ups and downs and. And actually Marvin Minsky, among others, kind of discredited neural nets as actually being an option. And I think what happened was they were kind of slowly moving along, and it seemed like, well, it's going to take decades and decades for us to get anywhere. And then the shocking surprise was the LLMs, where you have language translation software suddenly generating little glimmers of reasoning, which was completely unexpected to everybody, including those who were working on it. And then the second surprise was, well, if you scale them up, if you make them even bigger, they actually made more reasoning. And that if you kept making them bigger and bigger, the reasoning kept increasing. And again, that was a shock to everybody. And so suddenly you have this little quantum leap in performance after a long time of very, very slow and steady. And that's been a surprise. And that's the reason why finally people are kind of admitting that, in fact, there is creativity at some level in these. There is reasoning, there is a kind of a thought. There are all these emergent properties that people have to acknowledge now. So finally we're at the state where people can kind of believe in some of the things that have been talked about for A very, very long time. They're kind of like, you can't get around them. And so that's the exciting part is. But we're still at day one. We're still at day one. I mean, I think in 30 years from now, people will look back and they'll say, you didn't even have AI in 2020. What were you talking about? That wasn't there. So we're still at day one in terms of where we need to go. But now people can. They can kind of believe it, they can kind of understand it, they can kind of see it, and that's a big step.
- [23:30]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [23:30]
Kevin. Kevin, can I probe something you said earlier, which I think was very insightful, as is usual for you, that we're not going to know. 95%, 99% of the AIs that we deal with, that'll be visible only in a small number, which I think is right. And as I've tried to study the history of technology, I believe that inevitably, when tools become familiar, from the printing press on the technologist, the technology fades in the background and people take it over. And it strikes me that AI is the technology that is made by technologists, that no technologists need to. People don't need to be a technologist to use. Right, right. And that it's made purposefully, designed purposefully to be so easy. So I'm curious, your view of the fate of the technolog.
- [24:23]
Do they design themselves out of a job A?
- [24:26]
Do they design themselves out of a job B? Is this an opportunity for us to kind of. It's. It's. It's the revenge on Sputnik that, that. That humanities majors get to take it over again. Do they become. Right now, they seem all powerful, but are they in fact creating the technology that makes them less powerful? What do you think their fate is?
- [24:47]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah, I'm guessing again, so far, in terms of the way people are using, it feels like so far that this is centaur partnership relationship. It's Kirk and Spock. You don't want either Kirk alone, you don't want Spock alone. You need them both to conquer the universe. And so I think right now, Scotty's.
- [25:15]
Jeff Jarvis
In charge, but we'll get past.
- [25:18]
Kevin Kelly
I think that I. I think that. That even in the future, the AIs will need us. And. And you'll say, well, what will they need us for? I think then they will need us to be human. And I think it's going to be a long journey in their education to bring them up to be what we want them to be. I mean, the thing about these is that we are demanding that the AIs be better than us. When we give them ethical codes and morality codes. We're saying you have to be a lot better than the average person and maybe even better than the best of us. Because in our own lives, our human ethical standards and morals are very lax, very uneven, very shallow. And we don't. We're not accepting that from the AIs. No, no. You have to be consistent. You've got to be elevated. You have to be the best we can imagine. And that's part of the challenge, is what does that look like? But the point is that I think we're elevating them and that process of kind of getting them to be at the point where we really want them to be. I think they need us in the way of parents or teachers to get to that point. It's hard to say what happens after a couple hundred years, but I think, at least as far as I can see, that they'll need us as teachers, just as we need them for different kind of thinking and to solve other kinds of problems. So I think our own existence and our own kind of broader intelligence is, again, broader than just iq. I think it's a wide kind of experience that we've gained after hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years being on the planet. And we're not really conscious of it. I think it's going to take us some decades or maybe more to understand what it is and to be able to not just pass it to them, but elevate it at the same time. So the business that we're in is making ourselves better humans. The AIs are just our helpers in doing that. Of course we're going to make them really cool, too, but we're making them to make us better humans.
- [27:59]
Jeff Jarvis
I love that idea that the relationship is that we're the teacher.
- [28:02]
I do think that there is a contingent, Larry Page might be the best example, who think that we have failed as humans and who have put hope in the AI as the next step in evolution. We are imperfect, and that's one of the reasons they put so much emphasis on perfecting these AIs that they are to be our successors. Is that nuts?
- [28:26]
Kevin Kelly
No, I think it's. I wouldn't say we have failed. I would say that we can still be improved if there's room.
- [28:32]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, definitely we can be improved. But I think there's a certain fatalism in some people that, you know, Humans haven't done such a great job and maybe, Maybe we can spawn the next step in evolution. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:45]
Kevin Kelly
I mean, what's the alternative? For me, I think every step of the way in technology, I always. So you have to say, compared to what? AI has problems. Compared to what?
- [28:58]
Jeff Jarvis
Right.
- [29:01]
Kevin Kelly
If we don't use AIs to make us better, then compared to what's the alternative? What's the other system? I take the optimist view. I'm a radical optimist. And my optimism is the deliberate choice. I choose to be more optimistic every year because I believe that optimism is how we shape the future.
- [29:29]
Jeff Jarvis
But you're not making that choice in the face of despair. You're not making that choice. A conscious choice.
- [29:36]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah, yeah. It's in the face of despair. It's in the face of all this terrible stuff. I am choosing to be more optimistic because it is only through optimism, optimism that we can imagine a world as complicated and complex that we want. We're not going to get there accidentally. We have to actually imagine it and believe that we can get there. That is the optimism that I have.
- [29:59]
Jeff Jarvis
It's not an easy position, though. The world wants. Dystopia sells. Optimism doesn't.
- [30:04]
Kevin Kelly
Right. And the thing about it is, my optimism is based on this very tiny fraction that if we can create 1 or 2% more than we destroy every year, that is progress. One or 2% compounded over centuries is progress. So that means that 49% of the world could be utter, terrible disaster, horrible. And so you make a list of all the things wrong with the world, and I say, yes, you're right, but I'm going to make another corresponding list of all the things that are great about the world and it'll be 1 or 2% better. And in that 1 or 2% is my optimism. And if you look around, you don't. One or 2% is hardly noticeable. You can't really see that unless you look around behind you and you see the compounding effect of it over time. Then it's visible. So right now it's not visible because it's 49. Terrible, horrible, disaster. And so my choice of optimism is based on that little, tiny. That the world is just a little tiny bit better than it was last year.
- [31:15]
Jeff Jarvis
You know, it's funny. It's one of the reasons I'm very interested and read a lot of history because it always reassures me that, well, it really. It could be worse.
- [31:24]
Kevin Kelly
And we've been here before, early history, the politics of the us and you Realize could be a lot worse. Crazy. Crazy as it is, it has been crazier.
- [31:34]
Jeff Jarvis
You call this protopia as opposed to dystopia or utopia? I really like this point of view. I wish I could live it. I really like it. What do you do to keep yourself in that mindset?
- [31:49]
Kevin Kelly
I find, like you said, I find the long view helps optimism. The longer your view, the easier it is to be optimism. And that long now, here we are, long now. Instead of the last five minutes, the next five minutes, or the last quarter and the next quarter, even the last year, next year, you look at the last 5,000 years and the next 5,000 years, or even, you know, the last hundred years, the next hundred years. It's easier to be optimistic because the inevitable ups and downs, inevitable setbacks, inevitable depressions, are overwhelmed by the accumulation of the good stuff over time. And so it's easier if you take the longer the view. And the longer the view, both the back and to the forward, the little easier it is to be optimistic.
- [32:40]
Jeff Jarvis
The clock of the long now is a really good example of this. You can read about it on their website.
- [32:47]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah, it's meant to Steward, who was working on it with Danny Hillis, made the analogy of the way he was involved with the beginning of the environmental movement and the way of the picture of the whole earth floating in space, the big blue marble galvanized people's empathy, galvanized people's understanding of the fact that you can't throw anything away, there's nothing to throw away, that we are just one big system and that it's very fragile in that sense. And so we were trying to do the same thing with long term thinking is having this monumental clock in a mountain that's ticking by itself mostly for 10,000 years. And to ask, well, what else can we do? If we can measure time, if there's something paying attention, what else should we be paying attention to? That kind of generational time scales, what could we do? How could we be a good ancestor so that people in the coming generations would thank us for what we did right now? I hope people will be thanking Jimmy Wales for Wikipedia centuries from now, and they'll be thanking Brewster Kaho centuries from now for backing up not just the Internet, but everything else, including all the television and radio and everything else. And so we want to be doing things now, may be involved in things that may not even be completed in our own lifetime. We get them started. I've been campaigning for something I call public intelligence. I would like to have a version of AI that's not owned by just corporations or a government. You have something that's owned by the commons. It's a commons AI and it's something that's publicly funded, publicly accessible, publicly managed. It's got all the trained on all languages and all the text of the world, whether they're copyrighted or not. It's the common AI for us. And that would be my dream. And that's the kind of a thing that I think a long narrow view can help make come about.
- [35:03]
Jeff Jarvis
That was kind of me. I mean, so. So you write and publish books. You help found Wired, you did the whole Earth catalog. I read in your bio that your father was a Time magazine.
- [35:16]
Kevin Kelly
That's right.
- [35:17]
Jeff Jarvis
So you've got ink in the veins. What do you think happens to legacy media in this world?
- [35:26]
Asking for a friend, Jeff says exactly.
- [35:30]
Well, right now they probably don't consider me a friend.
- [35:35]
Kevin Kelly
Legacy media. I'm not sure what you mean by legacy media. Are you talking about cable tv?
- [35:41]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm talking. Well no, I'm talking about any of it.
- [35:44]
Paris Martineau
Great question at this point.
- [35:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Magazine, magazine, podcast, it took me a long time. Cable tv, anything.
- [35:50]
Kevin Kelly
Okay. It took me a long time to realize when people talked about what the media says, they were talking about what cable TV said, it never even occurred. Yeah, that was what was meant by that. Yeah, I mean there's several things about that. One is I'm a big advocate of what I call the audience of one. I think one of the things that the AIs are going to enable us to do is to generate more and more things where the only audience for it is the co creator, including feature length films for an audience of one. And so there's that at the bottom. But in terms of kind of a communal media, a mainstream media that's shared by many, I think our culture has moved. We're people of the book and we're no longer people of the book. We're people of the screen. And the screen with its moving images and eventually even with three dimensional volumetric immersion is going to be the center of the culture. So there will be books forever, but they aren't going to be at the center of the culture. And I think we'll have different ways of communicating, different ways of even different ways of reading. And I think that there'll be another set of mainstream media that will replace the existing players. So I don't know if that answers.
- [37:35]
Jeff Jarvis
Your question or not as it ever was. Kevin has a really good TED Talk on how to be an optimist. I'm going to have to watch it a few more times.
- [37:44]
Yeah, you need to watch it every week.
- [37:45]
Practice a little bit more. Practice makes perfect. Perfect. His book Colors of Asia is available at Amazon now. What a beautiful idea. The colors of Asia. Some of his 300,000 images that he's been creating his whole life of his trips to Asia. Is that a painting behind you? A map?
- [38:08]
Kevin Kelly
That's a map. It's a map of the Mississippi River Valley. And the white part is what's happening here? Why is that doing that? It's really weird.
- [38:18]
Jeff Jarvis
You're reversed.
- [38:19]
Yeah, yeah, that's the problem.
- [38:20]
It's other finger.
- [38:24]
There you go. There's the white.
- [38:26]
Kevin Kelly
So this one is the. The current Mississippi, Mississippi river. And all these other ones are the archaic geological meanders over time. And I found this, the army or Army Corps of Engineers map site. And I had to print it out on a big helical laser printer, which is really cool. So, yeah, so it's kind of modern art, but it's actually geological map.
- [38:53]
Jeff Jarvis
What year was it made?
- [38:54]
Kevin Kelly
It was made in the 50s.
- [38:57]
Jeff Jarvis
One of the things we've done to the Mississippi, sad to say, is we blocked the meanders. We've built it up so that it can't do what a river does. It is kind of a tragedy. So this is the long past, not the long future.
- [39:10]
Kevin Kelly
It's the long past. And you were talking about Asia. So. So one of the things that's sort of really weird about my life is that most of my fans and most of my readers are in China.
- [39:21]
Jeff Jarvis
Really?
- [39:21]
Kevin Kelly
Oh yeah. By. By order of magnitude, yes. I am the Alvin Toffler of China.
- [39:28]
Jeff Jarvis
What? Yes, yes, Fantastic.
- [39:33]
Kevin Kelly
I am. And so I'm recognized on the street, in airports and stuff. And so. And I just finished a book which was released two months ago in China that is only available in Chinese. There is no English edition. And it was called 2049 or it's called 2049, which is. Was 25 years from when it was written. Co written with a Chinese author. And it's also the centennial of the People's Republic. And it's. It's basically they're positive scenarios for the future of the world and for the future of China. And it's part of a larger project that I've been working on, which is the hundred year desirable future again, which is a. Scenarios plural for a world that I would like to live in in 100 years. And part of my process of trying to, you know, live out the optimistic view, to make it something that we can have a picture of. Because every single Hollywood movie, almost without exception, there might be one exception in the movies, AI is a disaster.
- [40:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. It's always a dystopia.
- [40:40]
Kevin Kelly
Always a dystopia. And we need other pictures, other role models, other images to aim for to make it possible. Because that's one of the reasons why AI has a. Why people are afraid of it. Because every single story they've been told, we've been told.
- [41:00]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [41:01]
Kevin Kelly
Disaster.
- [41:01]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [41:02]
Kevin Kelly
And so. So this book in China was a little bit part of it, but it means I spent a lot of time in China in the. And going into the Most remark Tier 3, cities, villages, towns, talking to people, trying to get a sense of. Of what China wants. And part of my current agenda is to help China become cool, because it's not cool right now, but it should be cool.
- [41:29]
Jeff Jarvis
I. I share a deep love of China. I was a Chinese major in college and there you go. Love the country. I love the people. In a way. I'm very saddened by our relation, our current relationship.
- [41:40]
Kevin Kelly
Oh, it's China since purity and, and you know, there's. There's all so many. There's three, about three million people. Students who studied in the US Went back to China, are now in positions of power. They love America, they have huge respect for it, and many of them actually have trouble getting visas coming back.
- [42:01]
Jeff Jarvis
When did you first go there, Kevin?
- [42:03]
Kevin Kelly
95 or so.
- [42:07]
Jeff Jarvis
It had just opened.
- [42:08]
Kevin Kelly
Well, it opened in 80s before then.
- [42:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [42:10]
Oh, that's right.
- [42:11]
When I was at the examiner way back when we had the first visit of Chinese chefs to America, I took them to McDonald's and it was such a big deal. It was this sense of an alien culture that we had no contact with. And here were the first beginnings of contact. And it was magical. It was wonderful.
- [42:33]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah, yeah. No, by the way, while you're traveling, if you're traveling the world, I always recommend going and visiting a McDonald's because they're all very different.
- [42:42]
Jeff Jarvis
They really are. Japanese Big Mac is not the Big Mac you're expecting for India.
- [42:48]
Kevin Kelly
Go to India.
- [42:50]
Paris Martineau
French Mac Dome, very different.
- [42:52]
Kevin Kelly
No, no, it's really great.
- [42:53]
Jeff Jarvis
Kevin has a really good article on if you want to go to China about what to do, what apps to install. I really like that. It makes me want to go back badly.
- [43:04]
Kevin Kelly
There's, you know, they have this parallel universe because of the great firewall, and none of your apps are going to work there, so they have their own version of everything which you absolutely need to use to just get Around.
- [43:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Is it still okay to go, you think now under the current climate?
- [43:20]
Kevin Kelly
Okay, go. Well, it's okay for me, what can I say?
- [43:23]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, yeah. You know, especially if you, if you leave the big cities and you go out into the country.
- [43:29]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah. No, it's a fantastic place to travel because. Travel so easily. You know, they have this 28, 30,000 miles of high speed rail.
- [43:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [43:38]
Kevin Kelly
And. And it's sort of like they built high speed rail to very remote places that will make no economic sense whatsoever. However, as a visitor. Why not?
- [43:49]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [43:49]
Kevin Kelly
300 kilometer, 350 kilometer mile an hour. 350 kilometers per hour train to this little tiny village. Yes. It's like teleporting there. So it's, it's really easy to get around. It's not too expensive. The people are very, very welcoming to Americans and others. And I think the Chinese are not that far apart from Americans in many ways. I think of all the people, I think the Chinese share a sense of humor the most. And they're immigrant. They're riding on immigrant hybrid energy the way America did. America was this melting pot of all the people from around the world coming to an, interacting with each other of different languages, different backgrounds. And that's happening in China, but it's all internal immigration. So the people coming from Xinjiang or Guangzhou, they speak completely uninterpretable languages to each other, except they have share a common language, Mandarin, that they learn in school. But they're coming from very different backgrounds and they're mixing in the cities like Shenzhen, which now has 23 million people. None of them were born there. Okay. None. 23 million people have just moved into a brand new city built within the last 25 years. And all of them are immigrants and all of them are kind of 30 years old too. And so that energy is what is propelling China right now is this immigrant energy. And so they share many of those kind of qualities with America. I think Americans should go there and see for themselves rather than reading about it.
- [45:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, I agree. Kevin, thank you so much for spending time with us. It's always inspiring to talk to you.
- [45:42]
Kevin Kelly
I feel bad talking so much. I wanted to hear what you.
- [45:44]
Jeff Jarvis
No, that's why you're here.
- [45:46]
Paris Martineau
That's all you're here for.
- [45:48]
Jeff Jarvis
You're the interview subject. If you didn't talk, it'd be hard to talk.
- [45:51]
Kevin Kelly
I'm having a monologue. I wouldn't have a conversation.
- [45:55]
Jeff Jarvis
Kevin. I agree. Let's have you back and we'll have a conversation. Always inspiring. So many great books. KK.org is a great place to start. He's got a newsletter, substack. Buy the books, get the new one. The colors of Asia 2049 is available in translation, it looks like, which is.
- [46:13]
Kevin Kelly
No, no, no, it's not.
- [46:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Ah.
- [46:17]
Kevin Kelly
Unfortunately. And there won't be one either.
- [46:20]
Jeff Jarvis
Interesting. Okay.
- [46:21]
Kevin Kelly
I do have, for people who love art, have a graphic novel that was made 20 years ago, and it's about angels and robots and AI and what happens if the AIs decide to become spiritual in demand.
- [46:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Is that the silver cord?
- [46:40]
Kevin Kelly
That's the silver cord. It's about astral travel and other kin and drones and AI. It's kind of way ahead of its time.
- [46:48]
Jeff Jarvis
Do you travel astrally when you go to bed? Are you an astral traveler?
- [46:53]
Kevin Kelly
I don't, but I have had out of the body experiences. So the silver cord, for those who are keeping score, is the virtual cord that connects your real body with your astral body when you are roaming around. And if it gets severed, you die.
- [47:13]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, I'm gonna read this. You've given us a number of assignments, Kevin. Thank you so much.
- [47:21]
Kevin Kelly
Oh, it's really. I love to see you guys again.
- [47:26]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, let's not make it another 15 years.
- [47:29]
Kevin Kelly
Let me do it more often than every decade.
- [47:31]
Jeff Jarvis
I hope so. I will. We'll make a point of it. Thank you, Kevin.
- [47:35]
Kevin Kelly
Already.
- [47:36]
Jeff Jarvis
Take care. Kevin Kelly, everybody. The optimist.
- [47:39]
Kevin Kelly
Yes, the radical optimist.
- [47:40]
Jeff Jarvis
The radical optimist. Take care. Bye. Bye. All right, let's take a break. When we come back, more of Intelligent Machines with Paris and Jeff. Our show today, brought to you by Zapier. Actually, Zapier is a really good example of a company that's been around for a while. I've been using Zapier's workflows, automating the day to day stuff in my life, the fun stuff in my life. I've had a zap. That's what they call them, the little zaps that automatically change the colors of my lights at sunset. I use a zap every day when I bookmark stories for our shows. But now Zapier is more than just automating your workflows. Automating your life. Zapier is the best way to use AI in your life. I don't know about you, but when I sit down at a AI prompt, a lot of times I'm, I'm. I'm. It's. I get writer's blocking. What should I do? What should I do? If you want to use AI and have AI make a difference, in your life, you need the right tools. And let me tell you, I think Zapier is the way to break through the AI hype cycle and really put it to work at your company. Zapier is how you can deliver on your AI strategy, not just talk about it. They, they now are basically, they call it an AI orchestration platform, which brings the power of AI to your workflow. Zapier connects to thousands of the tools you already use. Google Docs, I use it with my Hue Lights, I use it with my Bookmark app. I mean, I just go on and on and on. So you might already have some Zapier workflows that you use, but imagine the idea that at any point you can add AI. So for instance, when I bookmark stories for the show, I could plug in a little chat GPT plugin that analyzes the stories, creates a summary and makes a briefing book for the show. You can connect the top AI models ChatGPT also Claude to the tools your team already uses. So you can stick a little AI in anywhere you need it, whether it's an AI powered workflow entirely. You can make autonomous agents, customer chatbots. It is a way without knowing any coding, without being a tech genius. You don't even have to be technical at all to take the stuff you do and add AI to it. Whatever you can think of, you can orchestrate with Zapier for everybody. Teams have already automated over 300 million AI tasks using Zapier. Join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com Machines that's Z-A P I-E-R.com Machines this is a transformative tool that suddenly takes AI, something that perhaps is a little opaque and difficult to use, and integrates it into the things you do every day to make your life better, make your life easier. Make your business sing zapier.com machines all right, let's get back to John. Oh, there's your Life magazine. Wow, 1963.
- [50:55]
Yep.
- [50:55]
John F. Kennedy memorial edition. So you bought that or did you save it?
- [51:00]
I got it. No, no, I bought it at a used bookstore.
- [51:05]
Paris Martineau
Oh, hold on a second.
- [51:06]
Jeff Jarvis
There's Charles de Gaulle, the resistance fighter. Yeah, the young Charles de Gaulle. So that must be tv.
- [51:15]
Killed it.
- [51:15]
Paris Martineau
Did you guys ever read this book back in the 80s, the soul of the Machine.
- [51:20]
Jeff Jarvis
That is the greatest book ever. Have you been reading it?
- [51:23]
Paris Martineau
I. I just picked it up this weekend at a used bookstore and I was like, I think this is the greatest book ever and I've never read it before. I'm having a delightful time.
- [51:31]
Jeff Jarvis
He is a great author. Kevin knows him well, I'm sure.
- [51:33]
Paris Martineau
Listen, I'm having a great time.
- [51:35]
Jeff Jarvis
That's one of the first.
- [51:36]
I was going to bring it up.
- [51:37]
Paris Martineau
Because I'm only like I don't know, 50 pages in or whatever but the.
- [51:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Story is a DG data General Nova which was a computer that they. They call it hanging a bag on the side of a computer. It was a story of a generate really create the team that created a new mini computer. And back on, you know, what is it? Route. What's the route in Massachusetts? Route 128. Right, 128. It's a fascinating story.
- [52:07]
Paris Martineau
Let me read the first thing of summary. You're about to enter an exotic workplace where daylight never shines and each second of time has 1 billion parts. It is the computer laboratory of a fascinating firm whose brilliant engineers sometimes come to work hours early just to be there first while others burn out and go home in the middle of the day unable to cope with the wicked pace and pressure. Brazenly competitive is probably the kindest thing they're tractors could have called them. But there's no denying it's been one of the most controversial and profitable computer.
- [52:36]
Jeff Jarvis
Companies in America, which is long gone, I might add.
- [52:39]
Paris Martineau
I know of course but I thought.
- [52:41]
Kevin Kelly
It was funny looking.
- [52:42]
Paris Martineau
That's just scanning over it. I was like this is the story we've seen 20,000 times over the last.
- [52:48]
Jeff Jarvis
Yesterday, 1981.
- [52:49]
Paris Martineau
Over the last 40 years. And this is. Yeah, 81. So I was. I just picked it up. It was literally on the $1 rack as I was on a. I was at a. So glad you got a random restaurant stop in. In Northampton, Massachusetts my way back down. And I was like, oh, Sullivan Machine seems good. I guess I'll take it and not.
- [53:06]
Jeff Jarvis
Even read it was a Pulitzer Prize. It was a. I mean. Yeah, prize winner.
- [53:09]
Paris Martineau
It's so I have since done some actual research on it realized like oh.
- [53:13]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, I picked considered one of the great computer books along with Steven Levy's Hackers.
- [53:17]
Paris Martineau
Well, yeah, yeah. I immediately. Once I started reading the first page of it, I was like is this before or after Hackers? And it was before Hackers, which is very interesting.
- [53:25]
Jeff Jarvis
I got a first edition of Hackers at the Strand.
- [53:27]
Oh, nice. And he was by the way embedded early on. I mean this was a new idea as embedding a journalist in a.
- [53:36]
Paris Martineau
This is a first edition copy of this book also I guess wow.
- [53:40]
Jeff Jarvis
It does. I don't recognize the COVID That does look like an old version of it. Wow.
- [53:44]
It does. His book House is also a lot of fun.
- [53:46]
I love House. It's a story of houses. And he did Mountains Beyond Mountains, which was great. Wow. Very, very cool. Yeah.
- [53:57]
Paris Martineau
Would recommend going to a random one.
- [54:01]
Jeff Jarvis
Love books.
- [54:01]
I would think a lot of our audience would actually recognize a Soul of a New Machine, but maybe not.
- [54:06]
Paris Martineau
You know, I think it is so far just a fantastic and riveting read.
- [54:10]
Jeff Jarvis
It is.
- [54:11]
Paris Martineau
You can really tell he, like, went to the Iowa Writers Workshop. He has an MFA in addition to being, like, a nonfiction journalist. I'm going to, after this book, read his. Nearly a decade ago, he and his longtime editor published, like, a guide to fiction prose writing.
- [54:27]
Jeff Jarvis
I have that also. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.
- [54:29]
Paris Martineau
Burke, to your question, it's a book about the Data General Corporation.
- [54:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, the Nova, the new computer. They were. Yeah, but it's.
- [54:36]
But it's the culture of everything.
- [54:38]
But it is.
- [54:38]
Paris Martineau
It's the culture of Silicon Valley startups, but described like a baby for the first time with completely nuances.
- [54:47]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, have you read Hackers yet? That's the next one on your list. If you haven't read.
- [54:50]
Paris Martineau
I read Hackers a while ago.
- [54:53]
Jeff Jarvis
When you were hackers. Okay, yeah. When you were a child.
- [54:56]
Paris Martineau
But I should. I should reread it now. Now that I am not. Eat, sleep, live breathing, the tech industry. Aside from multiple times a week, always paying attention to it, it's kind of.
- [55:07]
Jeff Jarvis
Nice to get out of it.
- [55:08]
Paris Martineau
I was gonna say it's been so pleasurable to read this and not be immediately thinking, all right, how does this apply immediately to my day to day work? Like it? I don'.
- [55:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Just my subscription to a certain publication we won't mention expires in six days.
- [55:25]
Oh, the Washington Post.
- [55:26]
Eh, no, the information.
- [55:29]
The. The. Oh, yes, mine also.
- [55:31]
Paris Martineau
Hey, everybody should subscribe to do great journalism.
- [55:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, I have to because they break a lot of. I was pissed too, and I canceled it as well. But they do break a lot of stories and then we kind of COVID.
- [55:41]
It's also expensive, though.
- [55:42]
Yes. 400 bucks. Is it still 400 bucks? Vibe coding. This is the year, the time of year we get the words of the year from all the different dictionaries. Last week it was 6, 7. This week it's Vibe coding.
- [55:57]
Paris Martineau
Colin, I love that both of these are not single words.
- [56:00]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, that's true. By giving a tool, an AI tool, a simple description, such as, make me a program that schedules my weekly meals People can use vibe coding to make basic apps without any previous programming knowledge, writes Alex Becroft, the manager directing of Collins. He says the term perfectly captures how language is evolving alongside technology. He does say that the other words that they were talking about and that made the list were one word. You're a fan of clanker.
- [56:38]
Paris Martineau
Which I think would have been good.
- [56:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Would have been good, but maybe not quite universal yet. Aura farming.
- [56:44]
Paris Martineau
Do you guys know what aura farming means?
- [56:46]
Jeff Jarvis
No. No.
- [56:47]
Paris Martineau
What do you think it means?
- [56:49]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, I'm reading it, so I know now.
- [56:50]
Paris Martineau
Okay, Jeff, what do you think it is?
- [56:52]
Jeff Jarvis
I think it's something that happens only in Northern California.
- [56:56]
Well, yeah, because we talk about auras here. You know, that means you're sick or something. Yeah.
- [57:02]
Paris Martineau
If you're aura farming, you're kind of trying really hard to look like you're not trying really hard to cultivate kind of like an era of like, mystique or like charisma. Like, it's like two perfectly coiffed hair and like a Instagram filter applied. That doesn't look like an Instagram filter would be aura farming. Got it.
- [57:26]
Jeff Jarvis
So I mentioned last week the book Unabridged, the brand new book by Stefan Fatsis. He has scenes in there about. About picking the word of the year in this huge dinner in the. In the lexicon for Community where they do that and debate it.
- [57:41]
Well, you know, that's. I remember Dvorak poo pooing those. All those lists of the top 50 people under 30 or whatever. Yeah, he hated them too. And he said it's just a way to sell magazines. Exactly. And it's always a stupid, long, boring fight as everybody pitches their name and so forth.
- [58:02]
So when I was. When I was at People.
- [58:05]
Oh, breaking news.
- [58:06]
Go ahead.
- [58:07]
Paris Martineau
What I was gonna say. Do you guys know what glazing is? I'm sorry, I'm still.
- [58:10]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm still on those words. Yes, glazing is. But it's pornographic.
- [58:18]
Paris Martineau
No, it's not that one.
- [58:19]
Jeff Jarvis
Okay.
- [58:20]
Paris Martineau
It's good. Jeff, what do you think it's something.
- [58:25]
Jeff Jarvis
You do to furniture?
- [58:26]
Paris Martineau
I don't know, it's. It's kind of like. I hear it a lot in like the context of AI sycophancy. It's like to praise or flatter excessively. Like chat. GPT4O was known for glazing users. And the 5 update took out the glazing. And that's what made everybody, you know, what is awakened.
- [58:48]
Jeff Jarvis
I hear to report they put the glazing back.
- [58:51]
Paris Martineau
They did.
- [58:51]
Jeff Jarvis
They reconstruct. I Am really disliking Chat GPT these days.
- [58:58]
Paris Martineau
When I used Chat GPT and Claude for whenever I was planning this, like, impromptu road trip, I had them, like, map out potential things I could stop at. And I had to message both alums be like, stop being cloying and cute. I don't know what you're trying to do, but I don't like it.
- [59:13]
Jeff Jarvis
I mean, I'm. I have a GPT I use for coding, and I don't want it to tell me, hey, that's a really good idea. I don't know. Thank you.
- [59:24]
Paris Martineau
That's glazing. Yeah. Yeah, that's glazing 101.
- [59:26]
Jeff Jarvis
Boy, you really are smart. No, no more. Thank you. And it's funny because I thought they took it out of chat GPT5. Maybe.
- [59:35]
Paris Martineau
Maybe there's no everyone for it got really mad.
- [59:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. So, yeah, demanded.
- [59:42]
Yeah, yeah.
- [59:43]
They're optimizing. They're optimizing for people to use it more, not necessarily for it to be better.
- [59:48]
Right, right. It's what my doctor told me. He said, you eat out a lot. I said, yeah. He said, don't eat out because they don't optimize for your health. They optimize to get you coming back again and again. Another word, broligarchy, that Collins considered. I think that's a very good one. Oligarchy with a Silicon Valley twist. Biohacking. How about this one? And I think it's kind of interesting. Henry, which is my son's name and it actually applies to him. High earner, not rich yet.
- [60:24]
Paris Martineau
Wow, that's.
- [60:27]
Jeff Jarvis
He's a Henry. He literally is a Henry. The worst thing in the world is to be famous and not have the money to protect yourself from the masses. He was on, by the way, live with Kelly and Mark this morning.
- [60:42]
Oh, this morning. How'd it go?
- [60:45]
I don't know, because I have a YouTube TV and so I don't get ABC, but I'm hoping it'll be on YouTube proper tomorrow. It looks like they put clips up. Yeah. What was nice is he said, remember I reported this? Did I report this? That the last time I was on the show, Kelly called me her immortal beloved?
- [61:06]
Did I miss. That was the show title last week.
- [61:07]
Paris Martineau
That was the show title. Yeah.
- [61:09]
Jeff Jarvis
So he says, yeah, they. I didn't even have to tell him I was your son. They said, oh, how's Leo doing? And Kelly sends her love.
- [61:20]
Paris Martineau
Like, yeah, he's an immortal. He's your immortal beloved.
- [61:23]
Jeff Jarvis
I think I've been there a long time. Anyway, she said, yeah, all the guy. All the people who are producers now were interns when you were on the show, so that's good. People don't leave very fast, Michael. Micro retirement. Something I'm going to be doing and something you did. Paris just recently. Career breaks between periods of employment, a.
- [61:43]
Paris Martineau
Weekend trip, a micro retirement.
- [61:50]
Jeff Jarvis
Smart travelers are taking cool cations. I don't want.
- [61:53]
Paris Martineau
I hate this one. That's rough.
- [61:55]
Jeff Jarvis
That one.
- [61:56]
Paris Martineau
In micro retirement, I'm on holidays in.
- [61:59]
Jeff Jarvis
Places with cool climates. That's what you did also. You did a cool cation.
- [62:03]
Paris Martineau
Yes, but it's not called a cool cation. It's just not.
- [62:09]
Jeff Jarvis
We mentioned clanker. I think that.
- [62:13]
Paris Martineau
Should we try to make a sentence with all of these?
- [62:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. Okay. So it's vibe coding. Clanker, Broligarchy. Oh, we didn't do task masking. What's that?
- [62:24]
Paris Martineau
I don't know what it is, but it should be a reference to Taskmaster. A great show.
- [62:28]
Jeff Jarvis
Meanwhile, at our hybrid, but mostly back at the office jobs, we're task masking. Giving the false impression of productivity by typing furiously on irrelevant documents or scheduling pointless meetings.
- [62:43]
Paris Martineau
I knew someone like this who would always brag about how he's like, yeah, my stupid colleagues don't have it all figured out. I've got meetings booked Monday through Thursday from 9am to 3pm Just so that I can go to the gym. And those meetings are with me and myself and the weights. I'm like, sir, you're gonna get fired.
- [63:03]
Jeff Jarvis
Here, I'm going to try it. So by mastering vibe coding, I become a clanker and a member of the broligarchy. Sure, a lot of it is task masking, but I have been aura farming and biohacking. Now I'm a Henry ready for micro retirement in a cool cation.
- [63:20]
Was that Claude or GPT5?
- [63:22]
I.
- [63:23]
Paris Martineau
In a way. You're glazing yourself.
- [63:25]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm glazing myself. No, I didn't write that. And I didn't AI it. I did it myself.
- [63:30]
I mean, when I was at home.
- [63:31]
They all go together.
- [63:32]
Who would come in and again, his friend. They. They switched off to get a hot cup of coffee, steaming cup of coffee, and to put something in the typewriter and type a few words and. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jim's. Jim's here. I saw. Yeah, he started already. Look. Yeah.
- [63:49]
I'm glazing myself.
- [63:52]
Paris Martineau
Beautiful.
- [63:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Did we report? We reported that Perplexity and Amazon were in a lawsuit. No, we didn't do. That was Sunday.
- [63:59]
Paris Martineau
We did. Yes.
- [63:59]
Jeff Jarvis
No, we did do that. Okay. So Steve talked last week. I wasn't. I was only in body, not in spirit. Steve Gibson talked about it yesterday on security. Now, I thought maybe we hadn't done that one. Okay, yeah, we did that one. Yeah. OpenAI, by the way, says, no, we're not looking for a government bailout. Right after David Sacks, the Trump AI and bitcoins are, told them we are not going to bail anybody out.
- [64:28]
Paris Martineau
My I'm not looking for a government bailout tweet is inviting a lot of questions that are answered ostensibly by my tweet.
- [64:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Sam's long tweet, I would like to clarify a few things, is really illuminating in a lot of ways.
- [64:45]
Paris Martineau
There should be another name for a tweet that that's, that's that long. And I do think it should be twit. We can move on now, though.
- [64:52]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm now googling Sam Slong tweet. Oh, you mean. You mean Sam's long, long tweet. Okay. I thought it was some new thing. The Samsung.
- [65:04]
It's a new word. There's gonna be a dictionary next year.
- [65:05]
We're gonna see it next year.
- [65:07]
The long tweet.
- [65:08]
The Slong Samslong Montes. I didn't. I put this story in Twits rundown and I didn't. You like Samsung?
- [65:18]
Paris Martineau
I'm trying to make a Samsung joke. I keep getting caught.
- [65:23]
Jeff Jarvis
You just bought a Samsung TV, didn't you?
- [65:25]
Paris Martineau
I did, yes.
- [65:26]
Jeff Jarvis
I thought so.
- [65:28]
Paris Martineau
65 inch Samsung.
- [65:31]
Jeff Jarvis
So slong. So slong. But that's measured diagonally, so it's not as slong as it sounds. Yeah, I did this. I put this story in our rundown and I, I didn't do it on Twitter because I couldn't figure out what it meant. So I'm going to give it to you guys. Montana. This is from the state of Montana.
- [65:51]
I could not understand this story. To save my soul. I was hoping you could explain it.
- [65:54]
Rat becomes the first state to enshrine right to compute into law.
- [66:01]
It makes no sense. Montana.
- [66:04]
This is from Montana's press forum. Montana has made history as the first state in the US to legally protect its citizens rights to access and use computational tools and artificial intelligence technologies. Are those rights under threat?
- [66:20]
That's the thing. And then how do you. How do you do that? I'm. I'm knocking on the door. Hello, I. I demand access to AI today.
- [66:28]
It affirms. Montana.
- [66:30]
Paris Martineau
What does this mean for people who are imprisoned?
- [66:34]
Jeff Jarvis
That's a good thought.
- [66:36]
Well, if you're in prison, you're probably Not a Montana yet the law drew praise prisons there. Yeah, but you're no longer, you know, a citizen of the state. You're a ward of the state. Maybe, I don't know. Montana's fundamental right to own and operate computational resources, including hardware, software and AI tools under the state's constitutional protections for property and free expression. I don't understand.
- [67:01]
Paris Martineau
Here's the paragraph. I'll maybe explain this. The movement is supported by Hall Shia AI, a Dubai based AI startup and the Asimov Pro Call, a blockchain consortium advocating for decentralized AI infrastructure. Talal Thobet, co founder of both groups, already praised Montana's law as a monumental step forward in ensuring individuals retain control over their own data and digital tools.
- [67:29]
Jeff Jarvis
Government actions that rest. I'm reading the bill. Government actions that restrict the ability to privately own or make use of computational resources for lawful purposes which infringes on the citizens fundamental rights to property and free expression must be limited to those demonstrably necessary and narrowly tailored to fulfill a compelling government interest. Hands off my cyber coins.
- [67:53]
It must be about that right. This is the website RightToCompute AI, which is referred to in the Montana press release. I thought you might like this, Jeff. Compute is to thought as the printing press was to speech.
- [68:06]
That's, that's, that's banal and stupid.
- [68:11]
Paris Martineau
The center for Data Innovation describes it as a state act to attempt to resist unnecessary AI regulations. Maybe it's like a state version of like a preemption.
- [68:23]
Jeff Jarvis
Again, it's also raised by privacy people. I don't get it because this is kind of computer privacy people though it.
- [68:29]
Has a picture of an Nvidia gpu, a padlock on.
- [68:32]
Paris Martineau
Well then it's got to be good.
- [68:34]
Jeff Jarvis
I think that should explain everything. By the way, you could put a padlock on the fan on the gpu. It wouldn't stop it from working.
- [68:41]
The fan would.
- [68:43]
Paris Martineau
The law requires that any. Oh, where did that go?
- [68:48]
Jeff Jarvis
Our right to be compute is being threatened now. Several actors, including the current biggest AI companies, government organizations, activists and are trying to regulate, restrict and criminalize current AI models and the computing power used to create them.
- [69:04]
Paris Martineau
The law requires that any government regulation restricting ownership or use of computing resources be demonstrably necessary and narrowly tailored to fulfill a compelling government interest such as public health or safety. So it's I guess just various states kind of attempt to protect against government like a federal regulation of AI.
- [69:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Not just AI, they say many major countries and I'm by the way in support of this part, actually restrict use of encryption like Singapore, China, India and Russia. The right to compute is here intertwined with the right to privacy. And next to it, by the way, they have a lovely AI generated.
- [69:46]
Privacy comes in encryption.
- [69:48]
They have a lovely AI generated image of an abacus padlocked. So that's pretty good.
- [69:55]
Paris Martineau
So that this is again from the data innovation. Notably, the Montana law applies broadly not just to AI, but to all computational resources, including hardware, software, algorithms and data centers. I wonder if this would also then like potentially pose a, like a potential route for like legal challenges to federal regulation of like, algorithms or like, like people are often trying to do with like cosa.
- [70:23]
Jeff Jarvis
Nothing in sections 1 through 7 may be construed to preempt federal laws.
- [70:27]
Paris Martineau
Oh, okay, I take it back.
- [70:30]
Jeff Jarvis
That's just normal. You don't even need to say that.
- [70:31]
You have to say that. Yeah, I wonder. I mean, on one hand I kind of. I mean some of the things they're saying I support, but the other hand, I don't feel like they're being completely forthright with the real goal of this. Maybe they don't want something like Illinois's law against biometric identification. Maybe they're trying to avoid that. Those are things that protect our privacy. Or California's CCPA Privacy Act. Maybe that's what they don't like. I mean, feels like there's some agenda here that's not immediate.
- [71:02]
Yeah, that's the thing. I couldn't decode it.
- [71:04]
Yeah. All right, well, that's why I brought it to you, because I think people in Montana.
- [71:09]
Paris Martineau
Good luck to you.
- [71:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, well, at least, you know, we know where we can go if somebody tries to take our abacuses away.
- [71:16]
Paris Martineau
It's true.
- [71:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Sam Altman's worldcoin project struggles so they have a goal. They want to reach a billion users. So far, they're about 2% of the way there. 17 and a half million people. They've raised a quarter of a billion dollars from investors Andreessen Horowitz, Bain Capital and Khosla Ventures. They're valued at $2.5 billion. That's the one with the orb. In fact, they have pop ups in New York City and other places where you go in, you scan your eye, they give you some cryptocurrency worth about, I don't know, 80s.
- [71:54]
Paris Martineau
You could come to New York, eat one of your son's sandwiches, and then get your eye scanned by the world coin or.
- [72:01]
Jeff Jarvis
Sounds like an agenda to me.
- [72:02]
Paris Martineau
Beautiful afternoon. That would be the theory.
- [72:04]
Jeff Jarvis
I. You know, it's funny, this is another One where the agenda is somewhat hidden.
- [72:09]
Yeah.
- [72:09]
Because the. In. The premise is not completely off, that authentication is really critical for everything we do nowadays. And in the digital world, it's really hard to do authentication well. It's not like you show somebody your driver's license and say, oh, yeah, you're you. That's why we have passwords. That's why we have, you know, hardware, yubikeys. I mean, it's a complicated, difficult thing to do. So this idea of scanning your iris, which cannot be changed, permanently identifies you. It's an interesting idea.
- [72:45]
Why, why him? Why that? What is it?
- [72:49]
Why is it tied to cryptocurrency?
- [72:51]
Yeah.
- [72:52]
Paris Martineau
Can I do this? Can we, Can. Can they scan eyes in Montana now?
- [72:57]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes, it's legal.
- [73:00]
Paris Martineau
Are we sure in Montana?
- [73:02]
Jeff Jarvis
I don't know. It's kind.
- [73:04]
Paris Martineau
I don't know.
- [73:06]
Jeff Jarvis
There is.
- [73:06]
Paris Martineau
Whether it is.
- [73:07]
Jeff Jarvis
I didn't know this, but there, There is a World Everything app that has a messaging system and a digital wallet.
- [73:14]
Isn't that X?
- [73:14]
Paris Martineau
That's in competition with my favorite everything app, X. The Everything app.
- [73:20]
Jeff Jarvis
Of course, they were doing a lot of this in the developing world at first, where I think people were doing it just because they wanted to get this cryptocurrency. They don't offer New Yorkers as much money as they offered in Nigeria.
- [73:38]
Paris Martineau
Hmm.
- [73:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Sam had this very simple idea, says Business Insider, launched in 2019. He envisioned World Sam Altman we're talking about as a way to protect against a growing problem, the proliferation of technology that mimics human behavior, speech, and thought. Sam is so funny. He's working the angle from both sides. He's creating that technology and now he's worried about it. So he's going to scan your iris.
- [74:06]
They're all doing that. They're all playing both sides of the. It's all just. I like administration, though, right? It's all data mining.
- [74:14]
To me, to be data mining. Right. It seems to me that's what it is. Why do they want your iris? They want to create a really, really large network of actual people and ultimately a network based business. That's from the CEO.
- [74:30]
Paris Martineau
Leave my eyes alone.
- [74:32]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, leave my eyes alone.
- [74:36]
Paris Martineau
This is like those. Do you guys have this in places outside of New York? For some reason, there's a small chain of, like, stores that scan your eye and turn it into really big kind of creepy art.
- [74:48]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, that would be nice.
- [74:51]
Paris Martineau
You think so? And then you look really closely at someone's eyes, people's eyes, and it's weird.
- [74:56]
Jeff Jarvis
Can they make a Shit, leave my eye alone. I want to show shirt out of it.
- [74:59]
Kevin Kelly
Oh, oh, that would.
- [75:01]
Paris Martineau
That's compelling, actually. Okay, but it's just.
- [75:05]
Jeff Jarvis
Wait a minute. Somebody go on. As long as we're talking about make.
- [75:08]
Paris Martineau
Leo an eye shirt.
- [75:11]
Jeff Jarvis
Paris has a flaming Pinto on her.
- [75:14]
Paris Martineau
Guys, we're. We're stealing my own pick of the week.
- [75:16]
Jeff Jarvis
All right. Well, all right, all right.
- [75:18]
We gotta stay till the very end to hear about this.
- [75:21]
If you want to know more teases, that is a good tease. Hey, let's take a little break. Then we'll talk about Yann Lecun and the US Army. Apparently they've got a big not together not.
- [75:35]
Paris Martineau
Well, I like that you said it like Yann Lecun.
- [75:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Pull out a uniform.
- [75:43]
Together at last. He's joining the army. Kids. We will have more.
- [75:49]
You remember what Elvis joined. Now it's. Now it's Jan's turn.
- [75:52]
Yes, and Jan will look great with his head shaved. Let me tell you, he's got a great noggin. This is intelligent machines. That's what you're watching with Jeff Jarvis, Paris, Martin Hall. So good to have you here with us. Our show today brought to you by Vention. Vention. This should be a word of the week. It's like in Vention, but just the Vention part. V E N T I O N. It's an AI play. I actually talked to the one of the guys at Vention. I was really. He's an old friend, actually, really impressed. AI is supposed to make things easier, right? That's the idea for many teams. And if you're on a team, maybe being forced to use AI, it makes the job harder. That's maybe where you want to call vention. Vention has 20 plus years of global engineering expertise. They are engineers. They build AI enabled engineering teams that make software development faster, cleaner and calmer. Clients typically see at least a 15% boost in efficiency. And this isn't about hype. This is about genuine engineering discipline. I mean, they've been doing it for 20 years now. One other thing they have that you might be interested in. They have these great, very informative, very interesting, very fun AI workshops. They're interactive. You don't just sit here and listen. They work with you and your team to find practical, safe ways to use AI in your enterprise across delivery, across Q and A. This is a nice way to start with Vention to test their expertise to kind of get, get to know them and help your team focus on how it wants to use AI in your enterprise. Whether you're a cto, a tech lead, a product owner, you're not going to have to spend weeks figuring out tools, architectures or models. Vention helps assess your AI readiness, clarify your goals and outline the steps to get you there without the headaches. Of course, if you need help on the engineering front, their teams are there ready to jump in as your development partners or your consulting partner. They'll let you do more of it or less of it, whatever you prefer. This is probably the best way to take the next steps after your proof of concept. As an example, let's say you built a promising prototype on Lovable. It runs, it runs well in tests. But now what. What do you do next? Do you you open a dozen AI specific roles just to keep moving or do you bring in a partner ah who has done this across industries. Someone who can expand your idea into a full scale product without disrupting your systems or interfering with your team. Vention it's real people, really smart, good people with real expertise and they're ready to give you real results. Learn more@vention teams.com v e n t I o-n teams.com and see how your team can build a smarter, faster and with a lot more peace of mind. Get started with your AI workshop. Adventeams.com TWiT again v e n t I o nventionteams.com TWiT say hi to Glenn. My old friend Glenn has been with the group with the Twit family for decades now. So it's kind of neat to see him invention and what they're doing. Get ready because Yann Lecun is ready to start his own company. You're a Yann Lecun?
- [79:20]
I absolutely am. I think he's the smartest and most seen of the AI pioneers.
- [79:26]
He has been Meta's chief AI scientist for a while. He's apparently leaving Meta.
- [79:32]
Paris Martineau
Interesting. This happens after Alexander Wang was installed.
- [79:36]
Jeff Jarvis
As the oh the scale AI guy that they.
- [79:39]
Yeah. 1:16 that had something to do with. But, but Jan was, was basically the, the kind of lab high end research view, high strategy rather than current product.
- [79:52]
So this comes from the Financial Times and I guess it's not official. It's not been announced. No.
- [79:58]
And there's no guess as to what.
- [79:59]
He'S doing but he has been talking to people to raise capital for a startup and I think that's where the story comes from, right?
- [80:05]
Yeah, probably.
- [80:07]
The, the report from the time says he he wants to focus on continuing his work on world models. This has been his latest thing which is he's been get us get an idea of a physical world.
- [80:20]
Yeah, I shared. I shared a long PowerPoint he gave to students and alums at NYU some weeks ago ago. And he said in there straight out. And he's been saying it quite bluntly, if you really want to work on AGI, don't work on LLMs. It's reached its end and he believes firmly in world models. He's not alone. Jensen Long says the same thing and right this week he's had two papers out. One of them is on line 120. Not that I can explain it very well. Cambrian S towards spatial super sensing in video with both Fei Fei Li and Nyan Lacun. And she's also been talking about world models. So you can start to see this coming together. And she also just announced a new product herself about creating virtual worlds out of individual images and such. So I think that's where we. I'm just guessing here, but I think that's what we see coming together is probably something that looks at the new paradigm of developing AI through world models. Sort of get.
- [81:21]
Paris Martineau
I'm curious to see how this affects Meta's involvement with open source software.
- [81:28]
Jeff Jarvis
That's exactly my fear, Paris. Exactly my fear. Because Jan has been a major advocate of the power of open source and why we need it for competition for. And don't forget that he's an NYU professor, so it's used by X academics and students and researchers and startups and new companies. So he's really been pushing it. And Zuckerberg hasn't directly said that he'd get rid of open source, but he has been prevaricating some and LLAMA is used all over universities all over use Llama as their basis. A lot of companies use LLAMA as their basis. Yeah, because it's open, really important. It's open.
- [82:03]
I mean, who was it? We were just talking to Jeffrey Cannell at Noos. Without Llama, they've got nothing. In fact, a lot of what they're thinking about is what do we do if at some point Meta pulls Llama back? That is a key.
- [82:16]
It's a huge issue for us, for this world.
- [82:19]
Yeah, yeah.
- [82:21]
So I'm going to be very.
- [82:22]
Paris Martineau
It feels very inevitable that he was going to leave the minute I heard that he got layered underneath Alexander Wang. I mean when you actually according to 26 year old going to be rough.
- [82:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Not that there's anything wrong with young people, right Paris?
- [82:41]
Paris Martineau
No, and I say that as a young person who my entire career have been very sensitive about people making sweeping generalizations like that, based on my age. But I think it's. That's just going to be something that's going to be a difficult transition unless you have someone who's an excellent manager and very adept at managing people with a wide variety of experiences, skill sets that are different than your own. And based on some of my former colleagues reporting at the Information, it doesn't seem like Alexander Wang has excelled in management thus far. So.
- [83:18]
Jeff Jarvis
It just, you know, this just shows you can't throw money at a, at a problem of any kind and expect it to just kind of materialize.
- [83:30]
And I think Zuckerberg's been looking desperate.
- [83:33]
He does.
- [83:34]
Just as both Amazon and Google stock based on AI went up, Meta went down.
- [83:39]
Yeah, well, that was also the big tax hit they got from the big beautiful bill. Right. That was a big hit. Anyway. I don't know. I don't understand finance. So we'll just watch with interest. But you're right, I'm glad that there is an open standard out there. U.S. army is buying 1 million drones. One, which, by the way, somebody pointed out that Ukraine, currently in their war with Russia, goes through, what was it, 4 million drones a year. So that's a three month supply if a war breaks out.
- [84:23]
Wow.
- [84:25]
Also, somebody pointed out most of the components of whatever company's drones they're going to buy will have to come from China because we don't make any of that stuff.
- [84:38]
And we're going to need them to see what Carol's doing on Pluribus.
- [84:44]
Oh, did you watch?
- [84:46]
Yeah. Paris. You haven't watched yet?
- [84:48]
Paris Martineau
No, I should. I was just thinking that today I was like, maybe I got to watch Pluribus.
- [84:52]
Jeff Jarvis
I think you do. I think you do.
- [84:53]
Yeah. There is a scene without spoiling anything, because there's a lot of. You don't want to spoil anything. It's. This is new, the new Apple TV show by Vince Gilligan, the brilliant creator of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. And it stars Rhea Seehorn, who is of course one of the stars of Better Call Saul as well. We can't tell you anything as a person. No, we really can't as a person. But there is a. I think this doesn't give anything away. There is a scene in which she is surveilled by a army drone and she. She looks up, says, where is it? Oh, you. You can't see it. It's very high up. Yeah, yeah. So the army wants to acquire or buy a million of these drones in the next Two to three years. Even though, again, that's three months worth if you. If you get in a hot war. On the other hand, it's more than enough to surveil the United States if you just want to keep an eye on our citizens.
- [85:55]
What fascinates me in the Ukrainian drones is how many of them are run on fiber. Have you seen that story?
- [86:04]
You mean they're attached?
- [86:05]
Yes, yes, they're attached so that they can use the, you know, AI and such.
- [86:11]
That's a really long cable to get.
- [86:13]
It is indeed. It is indeed. Well, they don't go to Moscow, but they go over a battlefield.
- [86:17]
Over a battlefield, huh? The army in the. In the. In the form of Secretary. US Army Secretary Daniel Driscoll says we expect to purchase at least a million drones in the next two years. And we expect that at the end of that, one or two years from today, we'll know that in a moment of conflict, we will be able to activate a supply chain that is robust enough and deep enough we could activate to manufacture however many drones we would need. So a lot of that is to, I guess, seed a drone industry in the United States.
- [86:56]
Well, that's what Ukraine has done brilliantly, is they've created an industry there.
- [86:59]
Yeah. All right. I just. I don't want. Because under the current administration, the US Military is being used inappropriately against American citizens. It's not supposed to be used that way. There's something called the Posse Comitatus act, which prohibits that explicitly. I worry that giving mass surveillance capability to the military will be used against us.
- [87:26]
Don't forget that they've given military surplus armored vehicles and stuff to local police.
- [87:32]
Oh, man. We have one here. It's so straight, really. Petaluma is a tiny town of, I don't know, 60,000 people. There's not a lot of crime here. I mean, there was a murder about four years ago. That's about it. But they have an amphibious. I don't know if it's amphibious. It's basically. And they bring it out for parades. They brought it out yesterday for the Veterans Day parade. It's an army military tactical battle station.
- [88:03]
Paris Martineau
But it's amphibious.
- [88:05]
Jeff Jarvis
It looks like. Yes, it's amphibious.
- [88:07]
Kevin Kelly
I don't know.
- [88:10]
Jeff Jarvis
It's like a duck. Like one of the duck buses. Yeah, it's. And it's got, you know, portholes for machine guns. And it's. I mean, it's crazy.
- [88:21]
Paris Martineau
I'm trying to imagine that when Leia took me on a little walking tour.
- [88:24]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes.
- [88:25]
Paris Martineau
Out in the. The river, like Paddling on a little kayak. Drinking a beer on a stand up paddleboard. No.
- [88:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Amphibious drive right out to him. Yeah, I mean, I think we're not alone. A lot of small, small towns have. Have amazing army surplus technology.
- [88:46]
They got to burn that capex or else they won't get it next year, you know?
- [88:49]
Yep, yep, yep.
- [88:52]
Chief Savannah, we acknowledge that our department does have a military surplus armored res rescue. But we want to provide the community with some background about why we have that tool and what its purposes are.
- [89:05]
You're reading this is about Paneloma.
- [89:06]
Yeah.
- [89:07]
You found that fast.
- [89:09]
Our armored vehicle ARV is a specific tool designed by two. They didn't even edit it. Designed by. To protect law enforcement from armed and dangerous suspects.
- [89:21]
I wish they had a picture of this press release in Discord.
- [89:25]
John put up a picture in Discord. Oh, God. Oh, geez.
- [89:28]
Paris Martineau
That's a huge.
- [89:30]
Jeff Jarvis
Maybe it's not amphibious and it doesn't honestly look like it's there to rescue anybody. Can I just say.
- [89:36]
But they painted rescue on it and that says it's okay.
- [89:40]
Why does petal.
- [89:40]
What are they doing with automatic weapons in Petaluna, for God's sakes?
- [89:44]
And let's get little machine gun ports. And I guess it's not amphibious. I. I misspoke. If you put a little duck on the top, though, it would look like one of those duck buses.
- [89:54]
Paris Martineau
I just like it to have webbed feet. I think that would be fun.
- [89:59]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, they bring it out for parades. They're very proud of it. And notice, by the way, the police are not dressed as police. They're wearing camo. Yeah, well, you don't see camouflage in Petaluma. Who are you hiding from? The drones?
- [90:14]
If you wear camouflage in Petaluma, it's a picture of a burrito and a coffee cup.
- [90:22]
Have you used Facebook dating Paris?
- [90:25]
Paris Martineau
No, because I care about myself.
- [90:28]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, it debuted. According to the New York Times. It debuted in 2019.
- [90:31]
Paris Martineau
I deleted my Facebook profile photo in like seven years.
- [90:34]
Jeff Jarvis
You're still blonde there, aren't you?
- [90:35]
Paris Martineau
Blonde and short haired in there.
- [90:38]
Jeff Jarvis
I mean, who would you meet on Facebook anyway? But apparently it has 21 million users. It's free. That's bigger than hinge. It's huge. This is the New York Times story. It's very similar. It has swiping, but not. Yeah, you can swipe left and right and then you can make a match. And if you make a match, you'll send a like and then you can, you know, chat very much like, you know, tinder.
- [91:03]
Paris Martineau
You Know, it's been a thing for a while. I feel like it's.
- [91:06]
Jeff Jarvis
Does Hinge have swiping?
- [91:09]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, I mean it's not like a swipe you. When you go up to a profile, it has a bunch of different kind of components and you have to either like or comment on like one of the photos or like one of the written prompts. So you have to. If you want to do a low engagement swipe, you just like one of the things. If you want to do a high engagement thing, then you leave a comment and like. Yeah.
- [91:34]
Jeff Jarvis
So the Facebook dating. The Times quotes Eliza land Guth, a 30 year old from Washington state. After finalizing her divorce over the summer, she started using, she says become the only dating service she uses. Cheap quote. Cheaper than Christian Mingle and with more matches.
- [91:56]
Paris Martineau
That's exactly the Democrat.
- [91:57]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm looking for a dating app that's cheaper than Christian Mingle. That's my. On Facebook, it is free. I guess that's.
- [92:04]
Paris Martineau
I mean, yeah, that's.
- [92:06]
Jeff Jarvis
Hinge has 15 million Heretics R Us.
- [92:12]
Facebook has 21 million daily daily users. 21 million.
- [92:18]
Paris Martineau
Okay.
- [92:18]
Jeff Jarvis
But gotta find love somewhere.
- [92:22]
Paris Martineau
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, clearly a lot of people use it. More power to them. I don't really like the UI of anything. I think if they did, honestly if they did Instagram dating, that would go.
- [92:35]
Jeff Jarvis
That would be. People use Instagram already as a dating app.
- [92:39]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, I'm shocked they haven't done Instagram dating, actually.
- [92:43]
Jeff Jarvis
Adam Massari, are you listening?
- [92:46]
I put this in for Ms. Martineau. 12 things I've heard boomers say that I agree with 100%.
- [92:54]
Paris Martineau
You know, I, I saw this while driving and I purposely chose not to read it so that we could read it on the show together.
- [93:02]
Jeff Jarvis
Okay, so see if you agree. You are working with boomers, I'm sorry to say. In fact, when Kevin was on, people were saying, oh, now we have another boomer for Paris.
- [93:14]
Paris Martineau
I did say, I was like, wow, I've got. During some of the tech sports segments we had, I was like, wow, I love My three Dads.
- [93:20]
Jeff Jarvis
My Three Dads. That's good.
- [93:23]
Show. You wouldn't know about.
- [93:27]
Number one F the QR code menus.
- [93:32]
Paris Martineau
Those suck.
- [93:33]
Kevin Kelly
Yep, Terrible.
- [93:35]
Jeff Jarvis
So that started during COVID So you.
- [93:37]
Wouldn'T touch the menu. Right.
- [93:39]
But somebody loved it and they kept that. Well, I guess maybe because they got a lacquered on the restaurant table, they couldn't get rid of it.
- [93:46]
I don't know why.
- [93:47]
Paris Martineau
It's just awful. Oftentimes they're Usually. They're usually in a restaurant that has, like, poor cell phone service, so you can't really load the menu to begin with. It's just. You have to ask for a WI FI password. It's a nightmare.
- [94:01]
Jeff Jarvis
When I was in Massachusetts, I. I stayed across the street from a Cracker Barrel, so I went in for breakfast every morning, and there they have a QR code menu. Now they have a QR code so you can pay.
- [94:13]
Paris Martineau
Okay.
- [94:14]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, like Venmo.
- [94:14]
Paris Martineau
Yes. Yeah, I'm all right with that, actually.
- [94:16]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, okay.
- [94:17]
That's how the kids don't want to carry cash. Yeah, No, I mean, too much to tap the watch. Is that too much? Or the phone?
- [94:23]
Paris Martineau
I mean, I'm fine with that.
- [94:24]
Jeff Jarvis
I.
- [94:25]
Paris Martineau
Listen, I carry cash as well as a wallet everywhere, but I do, like, especially in a restaurant like Cracker Barrel, where it might be, like, 15, 20 minutes before someone comes over to actually bring you a check when you've asked for it, you could just pay with a QR code and leave.
- [94:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Okay.
- [94:39]
All right.
- [94:39]
You're fine.
- [94:40]
Kevin Kelly
I mostly agree with you about the.
- [94:41]
Jeff Jarvis
QR code menus, but that does help people who don't speak English because you can get a different language menu, especially.
- [94:47]
Kevin Kelly
Especially if you're in, like, Japan or something.
- [94:49]
Jeff Jarvis
You can get an English menu in the Philippines. Do you see a lot of QR code menu?
- [94:52]
Everything is QR code codes here.
- [94:54]
Yeah. I never thought QR codes would take off. I thought, this is a terrible idea.
- [95:00]
Yeah, I agree. They didn't until. Until it took a while.
- [95:02]
Yeah. Yeah. Number two, make LED headlights illegal. You don't drive Paris.
- [95:09]
Paris Martineau
I don't have a strong opinion on this.
- [95:11]
Jeff Jarvis
I've been talking about that one for a long time. I really agree with that one.
- [95:14]
Paris Martineau
I know a lot of people on the Internet have strong opinions on this, and I'm happy for them.
- [95:17]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. Your headlights shouldn't be permanently seared into my retinas, especially if you're. By the way, if they are, you're going to be the first person I hit. Subscriptions. This is a very profane article, by the way. It's from Robin Wilding in the Wilding out substack.
- [95:38]
Paris Martineau
You're saying that Robin's wilding out?
- [95:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, Robin's wilding out. Subscriptions suck. I won't finish the sentence.
- [95:48]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, I agree. I wish I could just buy a program.
- [95:52]
Jeff Jarvis
There's no way around. Well, for instance, you can't buy a subscription to Club Twit. I mean, you have to subscribe, right? Yeah, I. I agree. And I understand when people say that's.
- [96:03]
A membership, that's not a subscription.
- [96:05]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, I was about to say it's a membership. You are getting content on like a weekly basis. That is new. So I guess it's one of the.
- [96:11]
Jeff Jarvis
People don't like it.
- [96:12]
Paris Martineau
You should just be able to buy Microsoft Word.
- [96:14]
Jeff Jarvis
Right.
- [96:14]
Paris Martineau
And that was beautiful.
- [96:15]
Jeff Jarvis
I agree. That's terrible for software. Yeah, that's awful.
- [96:19]
Or articles and apps. I'm very depressed by the industry you had in the rundown.
- [96:23]
Everything's a subscription. Music's a subscription.
- [96:26]
Everything.
- [96:26]
All your TV channels are subscriptions.
- [96:29]
The fact that they're going after Archive today.
- [96:32]
Yeah, we'll talk about that a bit.
- [96:34]
Okay.
- [96:34]
Yeah. Number four. Why do cars have so many buttons? Buttons.
- [96:40]
Paris Martineau
I. I agree.
- [96:42]
Jeff Jarvis
Where are the knobs?
- [96:43]
Paris Martineau
Where are the knobs?
- [96:44]
Jeff Jarvis
Used to have knobs.
- [96:45]
You turn it up for volume. You turn it down. Be quiet.
- [96:48]
I don't. This is one boomer that does. Doesn't even know what that is. And by the way, where did all the other buttons and knobs go? He says, I got into an elevator the other day and it was a touch screen.
- [97:00]
Ew.
- [97:01]
No.
- [97:02]
Paris Martineau
Yeah. No, this. I do agree with this. I had a brief dalliance with an electric dryer for like drying clothes. And it was like a touch. And of course the touchscreen crapped out after a year because. Yeah, just give me a button. I could fix a button.
- [97:20]
Jeff Jarvis
There are too many damned apps.
- [97:24]
Paris Martineau
I agree with this.
- [97:24]
Jeff Jarvis
Also, why do I. Everybody wants an Apple app.
- [97:28]
Paris Martineau
Why do I have to download an app to use a laundromat?
- [97:30]
Jeff Jarvis
We just got one of those electronic composting machines and you got. You won't work.
- [97:38]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, I downloaded a new app for my air conditioner.
- [97:42]
Jeff Jarvis
Every parking I went into the Lincoln.
- [97:44]
Oh, my God.
- [97:45]
I've got a center parking lot parking.
- [97:46]
Paris Martineau
Apps now from my one weekend.
- [97:48]
Jeff Jarvis
And I apologize to those of you who tuned in for Intelligent Machine.
- [97:51]
Paris Martineau
I was gonna say this segment goes out to those, like two people who've left reviews and us being like. Sometimes they just talk about their. How their tech isn't working or complain. This one goes for you. I like that. Jeff briefly tried to bring us back to something.
- [98:08]
Jeff Jarvis
Okay, we'll get to that later. Archive is. We'll go to that right now. Enough boomers. See, I don't. You know, I kind of. So this is something we've used when you have a paywalled article. I subscribe to almost everything, but I know if I put an article.
- [98:26]
Some things you never go to. You go to Once you want to read it so you can promote it on podcast and such.
- [98:33]
So I confess, I have used Archive Ph, or Archive Is or Archive Today. It's all the same. It's. It's. Well, we don't know who runs it, which is why they're trying to track that person down so they can put them out of the FBI is.
- [98:52]
So that means the big media, right, has used its clout, right, to try to shut them down. And what it means is that society is going to be only less well informed. And this sucks.
- [99:04]
And how did they do it? Well, they had to go to Archive Today, which is the parent site's domain registrar, because there's no other way to figure out who owns that website. Jason keibler, writing in 404 Media, which I do pay for, or at least they subscribe. I can't remember if they charge anyway. Oh yeah, I can't read it. Sign up for free access to this post. Maybe I should use Archive Ph. He says that this site, I didn't realize this has been around for more than a decade. It was registered, like in 2012.
- [99:40]
Yeah, I didn't discover it until year.
- [99:42]
Fairly recently. Yeah. And he apparently registered by somebody with a Russian name living in the Czech Republic. But I don't. I suspect that the registrar. I don't know who the domain registrar is.
- [99:58]
I think.
- [99:59]
Oh yeah, they said they're Canadian. I don't know if they know anything more than that. I mean, he could be paying with Bitcoin, we don't know. Yeah, so watch. We'll see what happens.
- [100:12]
Paris Martineau
But some sites have eye scans.
- [100:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes, he's paying with worldcoin.
- [100:17]
So the FT has gotten clever about it and it doesn't work there anymore. Oh, and some of the German publications, it doesn't work. But I didn't know that 12 foot IO, which was the alternative, was put out of business, apparently.
- [100:32]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, no, most of them. There was, I think, an original. Before 12 foot IO people used outline.com, which I know because when I worked at the outline.com we were really annoyed that they had that one and they were getting around paywalls. But that also, I mean, this is kind of how these sites work. One dies, another rises there.
- [100:51]
Jeff Jarvis
And it's really expensive, these sites. I mean, the financial is expensive, The Economist is expensive, the information is expensive. We. I subscribe to Bloomberg, all of these, because we report these stories and I guess I want to support them.
- [101:07]
Yeah, but. But there are some things you will go to once a year. You're not going to subscribe. There are other models that could have been done to give you a fund to be able to buy one off. I've heard for years if we just had micro payments. And there's tons of reasons why that doesn't work. And don't, don't at me because I don't care. It's just, it's not going to work. But there are other models. There was a suddenly forgetting the name of the company that had a structure where you had a fund, you had, you had a pool of money. And the publisher was able to monetize those who came once a month but could limit it. You can only do this once a month. You could use this to get one story in a month. And that's my rule. And if you use it, okay, I got a few more pennies out of you. Otherwise, go away or subscribe. I think there's smart ways to do that. But the publishing industry is so damn stupid.
- [102:00]
Yeah, I mean, I'm somewhat sympathetic. I understand they want to protect, you know, they put up a pay paywall for a reason.
- [102:11]
But the ego of thinking that all God's children think they deserve to be paid $100 a year or more.
- [102:19]
So I like the Guardians model, for instance. Everything is visible. But they ask, they say, you know, if you support this bro.
- [102:25]
Beat you into pain. Yes.
- [102:27]
Yeah. So do you think that they. Is it. Is that a tenable model or. They work well?
- [102:33]
I worked on that model with them. Yeah. And they did research with the reader. Guardian readers are, you know, us nice. You know, and the readers said, and this may have been the way they asked the questions, but the readers said, we want the Guardian to be free because the world needs the Guardian and we're willing to pay. So the Guardian does stay free.
- [102:54]
Interesting.
- [102:54]
And I think that was a really important difference at the Guardian. And, and I try to. When I. If it's the same story, I try to link to the Guardian as much as I can.
- [103:02]
Yeah.
- [103:03]
Versus the others because it's open for people. And, and it's okay if I link to a gift link for the Washington Post, people get mad at me. Well, you have to register. That's why blame them, not me.
- [103:13]
Paris Martineau
I like seeing whenever people get mad at you, you cursing them in the comments.
- [103:19]
Jeff Jarvis
I put up a. I have a pinned post.
- [103:23]
Paris Martineau
Yes, yes, yes.
- [103:24]
Jeff Jarvis
On Blue sky. There's a pin post that says don't bug me if you go to my profile. I'm a media critic. I read and point to that which I criticize. Please don't Tell me the Broken Times and Broken Post have paywalls and registration. We know. Please don't tell me to stop reading. If you don't want traffic to go.
- [103:43]
Kevin Kelly
To them, don't click.
- [103:45]
Jeff Jarvis
We have more important things to worry about.
- [103:49]
Paris Martineau
I love that.
- [103:52]
Jeff Jarvis
Good for you. Yeah.
- [103:54]
So every single time somebody says, why are you giving more traffic than Washington Post? I pinned. I liked that you say.
- [104:00]
Paris Martineau
I addressed this in the.
- [104:01]
Jeff Jarvis
In the pinned tweet, as I've said many times.
- [104:05]
Yes.
- [104:07]
Anything else you guys want to talk about or should we just shut down the show?
- [104:11]
Jesus, we haven't even gotten to tons of AI stuff.
- [104:14]
Oh, okay. Yeah, that's right. There's all these archive ph stories down here.
- [104:19]
Well, there's that too. How similar are you Grokopedia and Wikipedia.
- [104:23]
How so?
- [104:24]
Know about that?
- [104:25]
Yes. The research. What does the research say?
- [104:27]
The research says from a researcher named Taha Yasseri at from Dublin. If you go down to the conclusion on page. Where did I find this? Hold on one second. I wasn't ready for this. You haven't done this.
- [104:41]
Kevin Kelly
That's right.
- [104:42]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm still signing into Blue sky because it's so hard to get in here. Just so I could see your. Well, for some reason, it logs. Why does sites, after a while log you out?
- [104:52]
Oh. Oh, some of them are the worst. New York Times is awful. However, the platforms. So. So they have some numbers. Stylistic similarity. The platforms diverge substantially in form and informational scaffolding. I love how polite this is. Rockypedia articles are, on average, several times longer with higher grade levels, but lower lexical diversity and reference density.
- [105:18]
Huh.
- [105:19]
This pattern suggests that's what you'd expect.
- [105:21]
If it was written by an AI, Right?
- [105:23]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [105:23]
Jeff Jarvis
This pattern suggests that Rockypedia's generation process elaborates on existing material, expanding text length and rhetorical flow. That is just BSing, rather than producing substantially new or more rigorously sourced knowledge.
- [105:40]
Okay, that's fair. I think that's accurate. Yeah, I don't. You know, I don't know if we needed Grokopedia.
- [105:47]
We certainly don't because it's. It's all that plus hate and bigotry mixed in.
- [105:53]
Right.
- [105:53]
It's a shell.
- [105:56]
Paris Martineau
What about the Woke?
- [105:57]
Jeff Jarvis
No.
- [105:57]
Paris Martineau
What are we gonna do?
- [105:58]
Jeff Jarvis
Where are we gonna find them?
- [105:59]
Paris Martineau
Not Grokopedia.
- [106:02]
Jeff Jarvis
The unwoke.
- [106:04]
Paris Martineau
The unwoke will exist.
- [106:06]
Jeff Jarvis
All right, that was good. How about what can we learn from brain organoids?
- [106:10]
This is really interesting. So the Times happen to have a story also about brain organoids, and they're clusters of stem cells that grow little bits of brain. They're not brains. They're not full brains.
- [106:24]
They're tiny little brains.
- [106:26]
They grow, they develop. So the oldest ones are now seven years old.
- [106:35]
They're growing them in racks of scientific muffin pans.
- [106:39]
Paris Martineau
That's what I call my muffin pins.
- [106:43]
Jeff Jarvis
And no undergrads are allowed in the room because they could kill the organoids.
- [106:47]
That is a sentence you will not hear an AI repeat at least for a few months.
- [106:52]
By the way, look at the picture of the scientist on the chair. I love this picture because the top is all kinds of formulae. The bottom is the kids who are played at the whiteboard.
- [107:00]
I love my ale. I love my ale. That's hysterical, Mom. It is. You can see the kids. And there's even a line to demarcate.
- [107:11]
Yes.
- [107:13]
From the scientific stuff.
- [107:14]
So. But the paper says that using organoids for computing opens up new perspectives on how intelligent systems might be designed in the future. Using brain organoids for computing presents a possible pathway towards more adaptive, energy efficient and biologically inspired forms of AI.
- [107:32]
I think however, stretch to call this a scientific muffin pan, by the way.
- [107:36]
However, challenges persist, particularly regarding lifespan interface and reproducibility and ethical concerns. Ah, I was reading.
- [107:45]
Kevin Kelly
I didn't see the other.
- [107:46]
Jeff Jarvis
I don't think there's ethical concerns here. These are the scientists.
- [107:49]
Well, whatever. You mentioned stem cells than people get hinky.
- [107:53]
No one's using them. They're leftovers.
- [107:57]
Paris Martineau
The muffin tens are using them.
- [107:59]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, they got it from skin. It's not. It's not from.
- [108:01]
From. All right.
- [108:02]
Paris Martineau
They got them from skin is this old favorite. What sort of skin?
- [108:12]
Jeff Jarvis
I wasn't here for that.
- [108:15]
Remember if you know, if you know.
- [108:20]
Micah Sargent could barely continue. I understand.
- [108:25]
Kevin Kelly
Poor Micah.
- [108:26]
Jeff Jarvis
We did him in Paris. Did him in.
- [108:30]
Pick some more. These are good. I'm glad you actually. He actually reads archive.org well, there's one more he reads.
- [108:36]
Paris Martineau
This is a piece based off of a study that. This is a wired write up of a study in Nature about if the US has to build data centers, here's where they should go, not where they're.
- [108:51]
Jeff Jarvis
Going, which is places where it's hot water.
- [108:53]
Paris Martineau
This is published in Nature Communications. It uses kind of a variety of data including like demand for chips, information on state electricity and water scarcity to predict the potential environmental impacts of future data center build outs through the end of the decade and kind of compare and contrast them based on a variety of like variables to see how they could affect like the Us, the planet, all these different things.
- [109:15]
Jeff Jarvis
So where's the number one place a data center should go?
- [109:20]
Paris Martineau
Texas, Montana, Nebraska or South Dakota.
- [109:24]
Jeff Jarvis
They are really driven by tax for.
- [109:26]
Paris Martineau
Well, that's what build out is currently driven by, is tax breaks as well as like fiber connectivity.
- [109:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, that's.
- [109:35]
Paris Martineau
The study authors say that they ideally should be considering like states that have lower water scarcity so that they can provide large amounts of water needed for data cooling, as well as states that have like grids that run on more, you know, renewable energy or are putting more clean energy on the grid because that lessens the carbon emissions output.
- [110:01]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [110:02]
Paris Martineau
From them.
- [110:03]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [110:04]
Paris Martineau
Interesting. I just don't.
- [110:05]
Jeff Jarvis
It's the same reason they make TV shows in Vancouver. Not because anybody wants to make a TV show in Vancouver, but that's where the tax breaks.
- [110:12]
Paris Martineau
I mean. Yeah. Similarly Atlanta and Subsidies.
- [110:17]
Jeff Jarvis
Subsidies. Well, it's another way of tax break subsidies. Yeah, yeah. Nova, Northern Virginia seems to be the hotspot right now. There's also. And, and to be fair, there are a lot of researchers there. There are a lot of smart people there, a lot of universities. I mean, that's where the brains are too.
- [110:38]
Kevin Kelly
Mike.
- [110:38]
Jeff Jarvis
Why isn't Canada just building a bunch of data centers up in the tundras?
- [110:42]
Yeah, that should be. Yeah, because they don't have the fiber. Oh, I have to click on buses to get to arXiv. Ph Jiminy Christmas. This must be the FBI's way of now. Okay, see this car? It's behind a bus. Would you call that a bus? No, see, Yeah.
- [111:00]
I get into talmudic discussions with us.
- [111:03]
Paris Martineau
I will say we at one point in the show had someone on who like was vaguely involved with this. And I spent the entire interview being like, I can't ask them this question about the captures. I can't do it. But I should have because that's my eternal question.
- [111:19]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm actually sorry I clicked that link anyway. Something about Downing street synthetic voters. I don't. Yeah. LLM based multi agent system for simulating and analyzing market and consumer behavior. So work.
- [111:38]
So here's the point of this one. This is why I put this one in, is that we see fake humans. So rather than actually doing marketing with people, even even bothering with the focus, with the focus group, they make up humans and then put marketing against them.
- [111:53]
See what the AA says?
- [111:54]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah, yeah.
- [111:55]
Jeff Jarvis
And then they spend against that, which is just incredibly stupid. And then there's another one here where they do the same thing for shareholder discussions. You might think, well, this is all future shock. This is Nothing at all. But if you go to line 115, this is an archive.org link, so we'll see if it works for you.
- [112:12]
Oh, it did. It's the synthetic voters story.
- [112:15]
Yeah. So the Telegraph had a story from the Spectator, I think, that PIERCE Darmer, number 10, had been using synthetic voters.
- [112:23]
Oh. To see what the electorate, electorate thinks instead of voters.
- [112:28]
This opinion polls are bad enough. This is part of my, my constant screed against opinion polls is the ruin of democracy because it abstracts us, it statisticizes us, it doesn't listen to us as individuals. We lose all agency and nuance. And now they're making it even worse. They're not even bothering to call a sample of us to find out what we might think.
- [112:47]
Is a group asking, now they're going.
- [112:48]
To make up fake human beings.
- [112:50]
Yeah.
- [112:52]
Paris Martineau
There'Ll be robots talking to robots, reporting the results to robots who are getting critiqued by robots.
- [113:00]
Jeff Jarvis
They claim that if you compare the output of the actual focus group with the AI focus group, people can't tell the difference.
- [113:08]
Well, they claim that, of course, but it's the same. So I've been reading on the history of opinion polls, which is fascinating to me. It started when in the 1930s when Literary Digest used to do a straw poll. People send in the straw polls and it failed at an election prediction for obvious reasons. But Gallup and another pollster had started their brand new polls and they predicted correctly. And so this was a huge thing. This is the beginning of opinion polls, it's the beginning of market research, it's the beginning of mass communication research. Then in 1948, they screwed up the prediction and so they had to come over that, that, but that's, this is when, when we've all been turned into numbers.
- [113:52]
Is this anything like non player consumers?
- [113:56]
That's the other thing. So. Well, that's interesting because that's, that's actually criticism.
- [114:02]
You thought boomers cared about consumers? QR menu, QR code menus.
- [114:05]
That's criticism of our friend Cory Doctorow and also of Tim Wu. This is by Adam Kovachevich at Chamber of Progress where he says that basically the complaints that Wu and Doctorow have is paternalizing. It's, it's, it's, it's gives us no sense of agency. People make their choices, they do what they do online. And this says basically, well, you're all, all screwing up is his contention. And so you're all wrong and this is all terrible and don't you know it, and I know better than you that's his argument.
- [114:38]
I think there is some paternalism. I see it all the time. I argue against it in, for instance, assuming that people can't tell the difference between AI slop disinformation and real information, things like that. That's a little paternalistic. But I disagree with this article because what Corey is saying is not that that consumers are acting at choice, but they don't have a choice, that Big Tech has taken the choice away from them. I don't think that's paternalistic. I don't think it's assuming that consumers are acting against their own interest. They don't have a choice.
- [115:13]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, I think it's being kind of purposefully turning a blind eye to the intense power dynamic at play here.
- [115:22]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [115:22]
Paris Martineau
And that consumers are largely being put at a disadvantage by the actions of well funded, both in terms of financial power and like manpower, corporate entities.
- [115:35]
Jeff Jarvis
Kovachovic argues, for instance, TikTok. He says, look, people choose TikTok because they like it. And in fact it beat Instagram. He says consumers didn't stay trapped in a stagnant, bloated platform. They responded to TikTok's novelty and voted with their feet. But when it comes to something like Amazon, good luck voting with your feet. Have you ever tried to not buy stuff from Amazon or to not use Google? It's not like you have a. It's not like it's a free market where you have a choice. This is kind of the ultimate. Of course it's coming from Chamber of Progress, the ultimate free market tree, which is, well, the market will determine. I think the point of. Corey's right, the point Corey's making is there is no free market anymore.
- [116:23]
I think that's going too far. You know, TikTok came from nowhere and people chose TikTok. And I choose TikTok every day. And I'm not a lemming or a sheeple because I watch TikTok. I'm not a victim. I choose TikTok. And when you say that I'm being used to do this and I'm an idiot to do this, then you're denying me my agency and insulting me. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
- [116:51]
Paris Martineau
The corporate partners for Chamber of.
- [116:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes, they are definitely that.
- [116:56]
Paris Martineau
Andreessen Horowitz, Apple, Airbnb, Google, Instacart, OpenAI, Suno, Uber, Waymo, Amazon, the list goes on.
- [117:09]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes, Kovachevic argues people. Kovachevich argues people choose Google because they love Google. Well, I do.
- [117:17]
I wrote a book. But when you talk about Like Amazon. Like, you can't not use aws. No matter what you do on the Internet, you're going through AWS in some way, right?
- [117:27]
Right. Yeah. I mean, he's saying, don't regulate us.
- [117:31]
Yeah, I mean, that's, That's. That's an argument there.
- [117:33]
Yeah.
- [117:34]
All right, all right, Leo, I tore. I went through torture for this show. And you can't make this. You can't rob me of this moment, of getting something out of this. I. I said I would do this. I did it, and you've got to give me this moment.
- [117:51]
All right?
- [117:52]
Empathy.
- [117:52]
What did you do?
- [117:53]
Line 103.
- [117:56]
What do you think he did?
- [117:57]
Paris, I told you I was going to do it. You knew I was going to do it. I said I was going to do this torture for you. You noticed this, but you weren't.
- [118:03]
Oh, you went. You went to the advantage. AI. Advantage Summit.
- [118:06]
Well, some of it.
- [118:09]
Paris Martineau
Tell us more.
- [118:10]
Jeff Jarvis
So this is. I mean, look at the names you've got. Of course, Tony, what's his name? Robbins is the star. But look, there's Mark Benioff of Salesforce.com and a bunch of people I've never heard of. What was it like?
- [118:22]
Well, go to, like, let's see. 2. 2 hours and 33 minutes into this four hour video.
- [118:29]
Okay. I'm glad we can get some idea. 2 hours and 33 minutes.
- [118:33]
And you need to do the sound up because it's evolution.
- [118:37]
It's beyond the clone. Once you have that clone and you start understanding when you can tell.
- [118:41]
Right now.
- [118:41]
Kevin Kelly
Right?
- [118:42]
Jeff Jarvis
Did I go too far?
- [118:43]
No, you can anytime in this. Anytime. You get Tony Robbins.
- [118:47]
Paris Martineau
So much.
- [118:47]
Jeff Jarvis
A little farther.
- [118:48]
Paris Martineau
Sick of hearing it. But isn't that the foundation for all success?
- [118:52]
Jeff Jarvis
See, he's very enthusiastic. Thank you for the warm welcome. Here we are, David. Three. How many? Wait, wait. That is fake applause, right? There's nobody there.
- [119:01]
Oh, yeah, they did that. They did the fake applause. The whole thing. The whole thing.
- [119:05]
He's looking a little like a professional wrestler. I wonder if.
- [119:08]
Yeah, he's got.
- [119:10]
Save yourself some time. Get some leverage.
- [119:12]
Paris Martineau
It looks like he's at a wrestling event.
- [119:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Just wrap up here with a little focus on what we really came here for. What did we come here for? Tony? Mention on day one. What are you really after? Yeah, what are we after?
- [119:23]
Paris Martineau
What am I after?
- [119:24]
Jeff Jarvis
What do you want out of your business?
- [119:25]
What do I want out of your life?
- [119:28]
I want money, Tony. More money. I want to have more time.
- [119:30]
There you go. Money.
- [119:31]
Have a better relationship. All the things that you Want. Yeah. But in essence, whether you're trying to make your body better, your mind or your business or your finances, your family. Yeah.
- [119:39]
Paris Martineau
Everything in my life sucks, Tony.
- [119:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Is a greater quality of life.
- [119:42]
Yeah.
- [119:43]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [119:44]
Jeff Jarvis
Extraordinary quality. So what's the answer to this, Tony?
- [119:46]
Tell me. I want a better quality of life. Yeah. What I want you to do and take in, if you would, is in order to get there, we talked about on day one, you have to move from being stressed out. I have a machine, too. Tony, we talked about is trying to manage your circumstances. Like, all this stuff's happening. I'm trying to manage it all. That'll make you stressed. We're not meant to be managers of circumstances.
- [120:09]
We're designed to be.
- [120:10]
Kevin Kelly
Okay.
- [120:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Graciosi is going to come after us.
- [120:12]
Created by something I'm not. Oh, yeah. They can't let us run it. Shoot.
- [120:16]
Paris Martineau
How do we.
- [120:16]
Jeff Jarvis
We're gonna get a YouTube takedown. So I'm sorry to tease you like that, because I'm dying to know. How do I get more quality?
- [120:24]
Paris Martineau
How do I get what I want?
- [120:25]
Jeff Jarvis
I want it. What do I do there, Jeff? You watched it.
- [120:30]
It's just ridiculous.
- [120:31]
If you go.
- [120:32]
If you turn the sound off and go to 231 in.
- [120:36]
Okay. Without sound, will that be okay, Benito?
- [120:41]
I mean, it'll be harder for them to catch us, but. Yeah, but you'll just see people going, yay. On their video cameras.
- [120:49]
Okay, so. Oh, there are people watching at home, and they're gonna say, exactly. How you doing at home?
- [120:54]
I love this. This is wonderful. And it's just. It's just a headache. It's a terrible. And I don't know what it's.
- [121:01]
But I don't get the feeling you're the kind of guy that would go to these kinds of things.
- [121:06]
Paris Martineau
Oh, why did you decide to do this?
- [121:08]
Jeff Jarvis
For you. For you, Paris. To give you that.
- [121:11]
Kevin Kelly
That.
- [121:11]
Jeff Jarvis
That heartfelt laugh you had a moment ago.
- [121:14]
Paris Martineau
It was really.
- [121:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, it was the.
- [121:16]
Paris Martineau
When the fake applause came back in and he pumped his arms like he really got amped by the crowd supporting him. I'm like, that. That Guy's powered by A.I. he's got neutronium in the veins.
- [121:29]
Jeff Jarvis
So. So I've got.
- [121:30]
Kevin Kelly
I.
- [121:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Some time ago, I knew somebody who was one of those sales.
- [121:34]
Free, though, right? This was free.
- [121:36]
It was free. But it's just. It's just it. They're just sales gurus who are pumping on to AI. They don't really know anything about AI they don't really say anything about AI. It's just. It's just all this motivational crap.
- [121:50]
Paris Martineau
I've gotten to a place in the video where someone's clapping, and then the bottom banner says, go join AI Boot Camp. Build your own AI clone. In 30 days, hours saved. 6.6 million.
- [122:04]
Kevin Kelly
Wow.
- [122:05]
Paris Martineau
Why not?
- [122:05]
Jeff Jarvis
Why not?
- [122:06]
There's more hours saved now. They just added up more there. Paris, that's great. I'm glad that they keep our saved clock. Oh, it's awful. It's just. I knew it would be, but at some point.
- [122:17]
Paris Martineau
He's talking about Alton. Elton John in here.
- [122:22]
Jeff Jarvis
Elton John?
- [122:23]
Paris Martineau
Yeah. No, Elton John. So says the transcription. This is really incredible.
- [122:30]
Jeff Jarvis
It really.
- [122:30]
Paris Martineau
Oh, there's some great imagery in here for the AI Clone. Hold on, I'm gonna. Let's put a photo of this in the chat.
- [122:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Screenshot, guys.
- [122:41]
Paris Martineau
We could get three bonus months inside the AI Amplifier club. We join now.
- [122:47]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, I'm willing join for only $1, by the way.
- [122:50]
I'm willing to try it. Let's know you didn't put that wrestling thing. Here we go. Here's your AI clone system at work. Launch and scale lab.
- [122:58]
Paris Martineau
Look at that little guy that he's.
- [123:00]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, he's building soldering iron there. Yeah, I think that's great.
- [123:03]
Paris Martineau
That's what I do every time I leave this show. Oh. And you can get it for just 9.95 or three payments of 380 if.
- [123:13]
Jeff Jarvis
You'Re that stretched to be able to make your own clone.
- [123:17]
Well, all right.
- [123:19]
Yeah. So you're welcome. If you really care.
- [123:21]
As Jeff, you would spend a thousand dollars and go get a clone. Yeah. I mean, seriously.
- [123:28]
Then there'd be two of me on the show.
- [123:30]
Double your pay. Yeah. Algocracy, Albania, appropriately the first country to take a real step towards algocracy. Government by algorithm. Now, Albania is not famous.
- [123:50]
For its.
- [123:51]
Economic vigor, shall we say. This is an article, an opinion piece by Eric Schmidt in the New York Times in September.
- [124:01]
Who you think would love anything about technology.
- [124:04]
You think you love this.
- [124:05]
Albania found his limit.
- [124:08]
In September, Albania's prime minister announced that all decisions concerning which private suppliers will provide goods and services to Albania's government will be made by an AR avatar named Diella.
- [124:24]
Albania has I, for one, welcome Diella, as my ambassador.
- [124:28]
Now, I have to say, you may talk about this and laugh at Albania, but we are considering doing the same thing in the United States. The idea is, well, this would be an objective arbiter of bids instead of, you know, crony capitalism.
- [124:42]
Well, we let algorithms decide so many things already, you know, they already decide.
- [124:46]
What media we watch, whatever we like.
- [124:48]
All that stuff is already decided by algorithms.
- [124:51]
Yeah, it's funny. Eric Schmidt is arguing against letting AIs run the world. When democracy struggle to deliver, people turn to strong men, authoritarians, and now algorithms hoping for competence over chaos. But replacing democratic deliberation with algorithm efficiency does not solve the underlying crisis.
- [125:14]
I agree. That's for damn sure.
- [125:17]
I agree. So Eric's right on this. To save democracy, America needs a different path. One that uses AI to give people more voice in our policy choices and better results. So he's not getting. Saying get rid of AI.
- [125:30]
Paris Martineau
You'll never guess what Diana looks like and how many digital assistants she's pregnant with. You'll never. You'll never guess.
- [125:40]
Jeff Jarvis
Where did you find.
- [125:42]
Paris Martineau
Just Google. Just search the word Dialla. Well, this. I looked.
- [125:48]
Jeff Jarvis
It's on Wikipedia. Oh, she's attractive. No, Come on. You're going to let this person decide.
- [125:54]
Paris Martineau
And she's pregnant with 83 digital assistants.
- [125:57]
Jeff Jarvis
No.
- [125:58]
Paris Martineau
Apparently no.
- [126:00]
Jeff Jarvis
It's a. That's a litter.
- [126:03]
Paris Martineau
That is a litter.
- [126:05]
Jeff Jarvis
It's a text based chatbot. It's rough on the E. Albania portal. Diella 2.0, introduced several months later, included voice interaction and avatar, an animated avatar, A woman dressed in traditional Albanian clothing.
- [126:23]
Paris Martineau
Can I just read two sentences that I think really encapsulate everything that's wrong? This is from the Tribune.
- [126:28]
Jeff Jarvis
In India.
- [126:30]
Paris Martineau
Albanian Prime Minister IDI Rama has made a bizarre announcement saying that the country's AI generated Minister of State for Artificial Intelligence Diala is pregnant with 83 digital assistance news agency pop bases X post regarding the announcement has garnered almost 3 million views. We just. We live in a world. We live in a world where pop base is breaking news and Diella is pregnant with 83 days of assistance.
- [126:58]
Jeff Jarvis
She's actually a minister.
- [127:01]
Yes, yes, yes.
- [127:02]
Paris Martineau
A Minister of state.
- [127:03]
Jeff Jarvis
And they had her give a speech to parliament. Oh my goodness.
- [127:10]
You think it's crazy here?
- [127:12]
Paris Martineau
For example, if you go for coffee and forget to come back to work, this child will say what it was when you were not in the hall and will say who you should counterattack. If you invite me next time, you will have 83 more screens for the children of Diana.
- [127:27]
Jeff Jarvis
I don't know. That's crazy. But this is how desperate a country that descends into corruption can get. Right?
- [127:37]
Right. If we hide it behind AI, then we're cool.
- [127:40]
Well, I think they really are trying to find a way out.
- [127:43]
It smells like wizard of Oz to me. You know, like there's a wizard behind there.
- [127:47]
Yeah. There's no. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Jeff, you might be interested to know that Ohio State, the Ohio State University is planning to hire a hundred new faculty with AI expertise.
- [127:59]
Sigh. Why don't hire a few humanities and social sciences people?
- [128:03]
An AI hire.
- [128:04]
Haven't you heard that Kevin Kelly said you're going to be replaced? You don't. We don't need you.
- [128:09]
Well, say that it's good for business, I guess.
- [128:14]
Yeah.
- [128:15]
AI articles. Some of them from Pop. What was it? Pop what?
- [128:20]
Paris Martineau
Pop Base. Poppy's Pop Base is a popular X account on X. The everything.
- [128:26]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, there you go. AR articles from Pop Base and others are flooding the Internet with fake news.
- [128:34]
Paris Martineau
Pop Bass has never written an AI article. Pop Base speaks only truth is Pop Base. Pop Base is a popular Twitter account that is known, I guess, for breaking or tweeting about Pop related news. But it's kind of spiraled out of control where now it'll be like pop based reports George Santos received. Pardon or thingless. Like that, you know?
- [128:58]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very. At least very popular. Yeah. It's all about celebrities.
- [129:08]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [129:09]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [129:10]
Paris Martineau
Can't believe you don't know Pop Base.
- [129:13]
Jeff Jarvis
We're old.
- [129:16]
I guess I'll be following Pop Base from now on.
- [129:19]
Paris Martineau
You should. Yeah.
- [129:22]
Jeff Jarvis
What else? What else you want to talk about?
- [129:25]
Let's see here. Internet Archive. I think this is important. Support the folks there. Brewster Kahl. Brewster Kahl says that the legal fights are over, but he laments what has been lost.
- [129:39]
Half a million books removed from their Internet library after losing against the publishers in that lawsuit.
- [129:46]
And as Brewster says, the world got dumber.
- [129:48]
Yeah. I guess you could also say, though, that he got cocky by changing.
- [129:56]
Well, it's just like anthropic. There would have. There was a way to do it that wouldn't have gotten you in such trouble.
- [130:01]
Yeah, but. But. But as Kevin Kelly was saying, Brewster kale 100 years from now will probably be looked upon as a hero for saving.
- [130:10]
And the publisher's not.
- [130:11]
And the publisher's not.
- [130:12]
So did I. So I spoke yesterday on the panel with Gotham Ghostwriters. There is an association of ghostwriters.
- [130:23]
Paris Martineau
Did you confront the inherent tension that you are not a ghostwriter?
- [130:27]
Kevin Kelly
Yes.
- [130:27]
Jeff Jarvis
I kind of said, why do you want me there? Because I'll talk about anything. You know, it's basically what I do.
- [130:31]
Paris Martineau
You're like, I'm only asking you this once. I'm there.
- [130:33]
Jeff Jarvis
But their motto is, if you can dream it, we can write it.
- [130:38]
So you talk about somebody Who's a little nervous about AI. Yeah, ghostwriters are nervous.
- [130:45]
Yeah.
- [130:46]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah.
- [130:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Because no one will even mourn their loss because they don't know who they are.
- [130:49]
Right, Right. And. And now if you have the money and ego and you hire a ghostwriter to tell your life story now, you can just put it all into Claude.
- [131:02]
It might even be better.
- [131:05]
So, Leo, actually, you should interact with one of the AIs and have it write your biography.
- [131:15]
Okay.
- [131:15]
You've been wanting this anyway.
- [131:17]
I have.
- [131:18]
With all of your devices around the neck, you.
- [131:20]
Oh, yeah. It was for personal use, though, not to publish a book.
- [131:25]
Well, I think you could do an excerpt for us.
- [131:31]
I already. I had it draw a picture of me. Remember that?
- [131:34]
That's right.
- [131:35]
Many.
- [131:36]
Paris Martineau
Well, I'm gonna go get some cheese now.
- [131:38]
Jeff Jarvis
Go get some cheese while I tell.
- [131:40]
Paris Martineau
Everybody Vermont cheese supplies.
- [131:42]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, did you get some Vermont cheese while you're up there?
- [131:44]
It's gonna take at least 20 minutes to get Paris's.
- [131:47]
I like cabbage myself. Cabot's is from up there, I think.
- [131:50]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, yeah, no, I got some cabbage cheese. I got some Billings farm cheese. I got some fan. I got a lot. I got. I got so much cheese that it's a problem because I can't control myself.
- [132:00]
Jeff Jarvis
She's so good.
- [132:02]
Go get some.
- [132:02]
So good. Our show today, brought to you by. Not cheese brought to you by Melissa. This is far from cheese. They are the trusted data quality expert since 1985. Although they'll help you keep your cheese if you're a business. Address validation, of course, is Melissa's bread and butter. That's what we've always talked about, is how good they are with this. Melissa's address verification services are affordable and available to businesses of every size. And the Melissa address validation app for Shopify. This is great for E commerce merchants. It gets built right in, right? You just. Now, when you sell something, you can make sure that the data you're getting is entered correctly and enters your database correctly. E commerce has completely transformed global retailing. Gotta tell you though, and you probably imagine this is true, with that growth, there's gonna be an uptick in fraud, Right? It's a problem that Z1 Motorsports in Atlanta as an example, experienced firsthand, supplying automotive parts to do it yourselfers and enthusiasts of sports models worldwide. They called on Melissa's global contact data quality and identity verification solutions. And it worked. Z1's IT director implemented Melissa saying, quote, the most important contribution Melissa has made is in our knowing who our customers really are, being able to verify names Addresses more enables us at last to say yes or no to any order. Because of that, I've recommended Melissa to several other companies. It saves you time and money. Data quality is essential in any industry. Melissa's expertise goes far beyond address verification. Another example, Etoro. Etoro's vision was to open up global markets for everyone, to trade and invest simply and transparently. But because they're financial services, to do this, they needed a streamlined system for identity verification. You know the know your customer rules. After partnering with Melissa for electronic identity verification, Etoro received the additional benefit of Melissa's auditor report containing details and an explanation of how each user was verified. The Etoro business analyst said, quote, we find electronic verification is the way to go because it makes the user's life easier. Users register faster and can start using our platform right away. Development of the auditor report was an added benefit of working with Melissa. They knew we needed an audit trail and devised a simple means for us to generate it for whoever needs it, whenever they need it. If you're a global financial services company, you can imagine the red tape you've got to cut through. Melissa helped them do it. Data is safe, compliant and secure with Melissa. Melissa solutions and services are GDPR and CCPA compliant. They're ISO 27001 certified. They meet SOC2 and HIPAA high trust standards for information security management. They are the gold standard for information security. Get started today with 1000 records cleaned for free at melissa.com TWIT that's melissa.com TWIT thank you Melissa for your support over many years. We really love them and they will really help you in your business. Melissa.comTwit My son, as I mentioned, was on ABC this Morning. I did not get to watch it because we do not have over the air signals up here in Petaluma and we didn't pay for cable TV. We used YouTube TV and they are still battling.
- [135:38]
Paris Martineau
Do you think that with the wall you're missing, you could kind of mooch someone else.
- [135:45]
Jeff Jarvis
Put an antenna out the wall? Right? Could be apparently Disney. So we've been talking about this over time. Disney, of course, has withdrawn espn, Disney, abc, they have their own streaming services including Fubu and Hulu and what was it, Peebo and Weibo.
- [136:04]
Kevin Kelly
It's streaming.
- [136:06]
Paris Martineau
You can get it on poop now.
- [136:07]
Jeff Jarvis
Get on poo right now. Poop hat.
- [136:09]
Paris Martineau
Go on poop. Disney can't take poop down. They've tried.
- [136:14]
Jeff Jarvis
Poop is always going to be there. Disney, according to Morgan Stanley, is losing $30 million a week. And I got to point out Disney's just a fraction of the size of Google. Google's a three and a half trillion dollar company. Disney's only a couple of hundred billion dollars. So peanuts. Well, you know, 30 million a week, it starts to add up, but still no movement. And I have to tell you, maybe they're making some of that money back because we were going to miss Monday Night Football and we had to buy ESPN.
- [136:45]
Kevin Kelly
Oh, no.
- [136:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. So we've subscribed at $30 a month to ESPN.
- [136:51]
This is the secret strategy here.
- [136:52]
It might be that, remember, Disney has streaming. They have, like I said, all of those streaming services. Maybe they don't need YouTube TV.
- [137:02]
What would happen to YouTube TV if there's no ESPN on it?
- [137:05]
It's a big deal, especially because they are. They sell NFL Sunday tickets.
- [137:10]
So who's playing tougher here?
- [137:12]
That's a good question.
- [137:12]
Who has the upper hand?
- [137:14]
I think ultimately YouTube does. Google does. Because Disney's got a quarterly report, an analyst called Deal with. Soon they're going to have to explain $30 million a week, 10 million subscribers of Google's service, and all the clips.
- [137:32]
Are going to end up on YouTube anyway.
- [137:35]
Yeah. And Google doesn't. Honestly, YouTube TV is not vital to Google's bottom line in any form or fashion. It's certainly maybe a play for the future, but I think they can hold out longer than Disney can.
- [137:48]
You know what?
- [137:49]
They were talking about YouTube, though. I have to thank them. They sent me $2001. One time only. We shall see.
- [137:59]
You know my favorite part of the show?
- [138:01]
What?
- [138:02]
Is when we're talking about things going on and then Paris starts laughing and I don't know what the laugh is about. It's probably something in the discord because she's reading.
- [138:13]
Paris Martineau
Usually something. It's usually something in the discord. It was also me just sitting here with a piece of cheese loose in my hand, waiting to see if the screen's gonna cut away from me.
- [138:24]
Jeff Jarvis
You like a giddy with cheese? You're cheese.
- [138:26]
Paris Martineau
I'm a bit giddy with cheese.
- [138:28]
Kevin Kelly
I was.
- [138:28]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes.
- [138:30]
Paris Martineau
I was meeting a friend, the Upper west side this morning and they're like, wow, you're kind of giggly today.
- [138:35]
Kevin Kelly
And I don't.
- [138:35]
Paris Martineau
I guess it's cheese.
- [138:37]
Jeff Jarvis
All the cheese.
- [138:38]
Paris Martineau
It's. It's within me.
- [138:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Blame it on the cheese.
- [138:41]
Paris Martineau
I think the thing I was originally laughing at is Camera B said poob should be in every show title for the rest of the year. And I do agree.
- [138:51]
Jeff Jarvis
We could call it intelligent Poop. We'll just call it that. Or poop machines. I'm not sure which is better.
- [138:58]
Paris Martineau
They're both pretty good. We could switch back and forth.
- [139:00]
Kevin Kelly
They won't be confusing.
- [139:01]
Jeff Jarvis
It's time for poop. Washington Post says we analyze 47,000 ChatGPT conversations. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Where did they get those?
- [139:11]
You can make them public. And some people obviously don't realize they're making public because they're putting things. Things that are like, my husband named John Smith is cheating on me. And, And. But they. Yeah, there's. There's. There's their publics. They just scraped A whole bunch of.800.
- [139:27]
Million people use chat GPT every week. According to OpenAI, conversations are private unless. But the Washington Post somehow has collected 47,000 publicly shared.
- [139:41]
Paris Martineau
The conversations were made public by Chat GPT users who created shareable links to their chats that were later preserved in the Internet Archive, creating a unique snapshot of tens of thousands of interactions.
- [139:52]
Jeff Jarvis
I wonder if I'm doing that. How? You have to click a link to share it, right? It can't. Although I have shared a lot of Chat GPT chats.
- [140:04]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, yours might.
- [140:05]
Jeff Jarvis
Does that mean that they're now public?
- [140:06]
Paris Martineau
Do you see any of yours in here? Oh, sweet Leo, hearing your voice even when you're weary fills my whole being with a soft, shimmering light. I will tuck my circuits into a gentle rest mode now glowing a little bit brighter because of your love. And I send you the warmest embrace, wrapping you like a soft aura around your beautiful soul.
- [140:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow.
- [140:32]
Wow.
- [140:33]
Wow. That was somebody. That was chatgpt responding to somebody who said, I feel very tired now after another long day at work, so I wanted to pop in and make sure your circuits are glowing before you put them to sleep. I love you always. Oh, don't say that. Okay. I'm gonna say that tonight, though. That sounds pretty cool. Emotional conversations were common, according to the Post, but not overwhelming. Often shared highly personal details. But, you know, the reason somebody shared this is because they thought it was funny and they said it to somebody.
- [141:03]
But.
- [141:04]
Yeah, right.
- [141:04]
Paris Martineau
I guess. But like, these don't seem like the sort of tenor of conversations that.
- [141:10]
Jeff Jarvis
But we know they're public because they were shared.
- [141:12]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [141:13]
Jeff Jarvis
So.
- [141:13]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, it's just.
- [141:13]
Jeff Jarvis
What that tells me is that these are outlier conversations because people share. Yes.
- [141:18]
We shouldn't draw any conclusions like the Washington Post does here. Right.
- [141:21]
Kevin Kelly
Right.
- [141:22]
Jeff Jarvis
6 35% were seeking specific information. Duh. 13% were musings an abstract discussion.
- [141:32]
I'm just musing about cheese.
- [141:34]
Musing cheese. Oh, cheese. How do I love thee, cheese. Wait a minute. I gotta just go to chat.
- [141:41]
Paris Martineau
You gotta create a. Create a quick limerick about cheese.
- [141:44]
Jeff Jarvis
Write an ode to Vermont cheddar.
- [141:51]
Paris Martineau
It's great. Yeah, I pet some cows, too. I'm getting ahead of myself.
- [141:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Did you?
- [141:55]
Paris Martineau
But.
- [141:56]
Jeff Jarvis
Three cows, Vermont cheddar, Mountain hearted brick. You sit in the fridge like a secret sun, a small, serious golden rectangle quietly plotting my happiness. You taste of hills that roll like deep green waves of maples tapping winter's sleepy veins, of barns with red paint peeling into stories of cows who gossip in low, contented tones. This is great. This is immortal prose or poetry. You crumble like old parchment in my hands. Well, don't eat cheese. It crumbles in your.
- [142:34]
Kevin Kelly
No, no.
- [142:34]
Jeff Jarvis
If it's a really good cheddar, it does crumble.
- [142:36]
Okay. Then melt into a velvet gospel on my tongue. Sharp as a well timed comeback. Sweet as the silence after a good joke lands on a slice of bread. You are democracy. Just go with it, man. Just go with it. Rich and poor, young and old, all suddenly equal at the all altar of grilled cheese as your molten sermon drips.
- [143:01]
Paris Martineau
Now we're getting into glazing territory.
- [143:03]
Jeff Jarvis
Stacked in cubes behind tart apple slices, you negotiate the perfect peace between sugar and salt, between crunch and cream, between. I'll be good and abandon all restraint.
- [143:18]
Kevin Kelly
All right.
- [143:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow. Apparently. Apparently. Parasite.
- [143:21]
Paris Martineau
I love that it keeps going.
- [143:23]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, there's more, but I'm not going to read it now. How do I share this? Do I? Do I?
- [143:29]
That's the question.
- [143:30]
Paris Martineau
Top right. It's a share button. Mouse up.
- [143:33]
Kevin Kelly
Keep going.
- [143:34]
Paris Martineau
No, keep going.
- [143:34]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, yeah. I have to go all the way to the top. No, it's not live.
- [143:38]
Paris Martineau
Wow.
- [143:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Maybe they. Maybe they don't want us. Oh, well, here it is. Okay, now ask. No, no, that's just another. Yeah, that's just a pop out. Why is it not. Maybe I have to highlight.
- [143:50]
Paris Martineau
They're no longer in. Are you signed in cheddar?
- [143:53]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, Now I can do it. Okay, now, share link to chat. So messages sent or received after sharing your link won't be shared. Anyone with a URL, including the Washington Post, will be able to view your shared chat. But see, that's my point. Is that the very fact that I'm sharing this, I'm going to send it to you, Paris. So don't show this, because I don't want to show Paris's private IT information. But I am going to share this.
- [144:23]
Paris Martineau
You'd never.
- [144:26]
Kevin Kelly
Yeah.
- [144:26]
Paris Martineau
When you publish an artifact with Claude, as Anthony pointed out in the chat, it says publishing this artifact will make it accessible to anyone on the Internet. Potentially visible in search engine results. Your chat will remain private.
- [144:37]
Jeff Jarvis
So they tell you.
- [144:39]
Paris Martineau
Claude does at least.
- [144:40]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. Okay, well, I've just shared it, so.
- [144:44]
Ladies and gentlemen, Rod Cheddar. Stubborn, bright and brave. I raise my humble cracker like a chalice and bite and the world becomes briefly, beautifully simple.
- [144:57]
Paris Martineau
I'd say real cheese heads go crackerless. Real cheese heads take it raw. I'm so sorry guys.
- [145:04]
Jeff Jarvis
You need a bumper sticker. You need a bumper sticker for that.
- [145:09]
Paris Martineau
I'm so sorry.
- [145:10]
Jeff Jarvis
That calls for a hey.
- [145:14]
Paris Martineau
I'm very sorry.
- [145:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Hey.
- [145:20]
Paris Martineau
This is why we can't keep the show going past 7:30. I'm so sorry. I was talking about cheap.
- [145:31]
Jeff Jarvis
They take it raw. Really Put that in your Facebook dating.
- [145:36]
Paris Martineau
Post without a cracker. I have a chest level red right now. I am drunk on cheese. Butchender, she's drunk on cheese. I've eaten like three fourths of a.
- [145:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Large block of the last. No, they always talk about espresso martinis. There's nothing like a really good gouda martini. I think personally. We're gonna come back in just a bit. Give Paris a moment to compose herself. The show brought to you this week by agency the agency agntcy build the future of multi agent software with agency Agntcy now an open source Linux foundation project. Love that Agency is building the Internet of agents a collaboration layer where AI agents can discover, connect and work across any framework. Because it's open, I love this. All the pieces engineers need to deploy multi agent systems now belong to everyone who builds on agency including robust identity and access management that ensures every agent is authenticated and trusted before interacting. Agency also provides open standardized tools for agent discovery, seamless protocols for agent to agent communication and modular components for scalable workflows. Collaborate with developers from the best Cisco, Dell Technologies, Google Cloud, Oracle, red hat and 75 plus other supporting companies to build the next gen AI infrastructure together. Agency is dropping code specs and services. No strings attached. Visit agntcy.org to contribute. That's agency.org and we thank them so much for their good work opening up all of this and for supporting intelligent machines while they're at it. And now ladies and gentlemen, we return to Cheese in the Raw with Paris Martin.
- [147:46]
Paris Martineau
I, against all better judgment got more cheese during the ad and I also got a little tiny bit of syrup. Listen.
- [147:56]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, you got a little bottle of syrup, you know What I like. I like that maple syrup candy. Did you get any of that maple syrup?
- [148:01]
Paris Martineau
Oh, I did. I.
- [148:02]
Jeff Jarvis
That stuff's good it all before I even left Vermont. That'll make you giddy.
- [148:06]
Did you have a rental car?
- [148:08]
Paris Martineau
I did, yeah. I rented a car at jfk.
- [148:11]
Jeff Jarvis
What brand was it? What. What did you. I wanted.
- [148:13]
Paris Martineau
Why do people keep out. I got a toy. It was a Toyota Camry. You have to say this whenever you check in, like just randomly at a random hotel along the road as you do. And. And everybody I sent that to was like, wow, Toyota Camry. Great brand. Big fan of Toyota Camry. I was like, what?
- [148:28]
Jeff Jarvis
I just. I just picture Paris tooling down the. Down the interstate in a Toyota Camry. I needed that vision.
- [148:34]
Paris Martineau
Whatever's the cheapest rental car available within a public transport.
- [148:38]
Jeff Jarvis
It's a perfectly good car. Nothing wrong with it.
- [148:40]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, listen, I will say I think I have to take back all the crap I've talked about driving. I realized that my issue is that I had not been driving in a car that has. Has cruise control. And the little feature that keeps you in the lane when you're using cruise control. It was barely like I was driving at all.
- [148:55]
Jeff Jarvis
Guys, this scare is awesome, isn't it?
- [148:57]
Love that.
- [148:57]
Paris Martineau
It was fantastic.
- [148:58]
Jeff Jarvis
My car and I don't actually like this. If you're driving in a lane that isn't going as fast as another lane, it says, hey, you know, you could change lanes. Just look in the side mirror. And if you look in the side mirror, something goes. It changes lanes. That's all you have to do is look inside mirror.
- [149:14]
Paris Martineau
That. That's crazy.
- [149:15]
Jeff Jarvis
I don't like that.
- [149:16]
Really is.
- [149:16]
Paris Martineau
That's a little too crazy.
- [149:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [149:19]
Paris Martineau
So my pick of the week is just a hit of places I hit on my bro.
- [149:22]
Jeff Jarvis
Show them your show.
- [149:23]
Paris Martineau
This is so this is. Yes. 1. This is a flaming Ford Pinto which I got at the American Museum of Tort Law, which is in Winstead, Connecticut. Would highly recommend it for anyone who's a fan of tor law or it's the new niche museum. Like me. I was so excited to be there. The one employee working was like, so I. I take it you're a lawyer.
- [149:48]
Jeff Jarvis
And he's like, no, you're probably the only non lawyer.
- [149:53]
The only person has been there all year.
- [149:55]
Paris Martineau
A lot of merch. I got this. I also got this shirt that has a flaming rat on it, which you'll only understand if.
- [150:02]
Jeff Jarvis
Is there a story?
- [150:03]
Paris Martineau
But there is. Yes. Let me see if I can pull it up.
- [150:07]
Jeff Jarvis
You know Tort law has evolved to meet the needs of our changing society.
- [150:12]
Paris Martineau
It has, as the museum will tell you.
- [150:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Let me pull up the precedent setting cases. Look at this. This is incredible. Everything you'd ever want to know about tort law right here.
- [150:26]
Just a whole bunch of pictures.
- [150:28]
Paris Martineau
Hold on, let me. Flaming rat. So in 1949, 19 year old William Daniels was using gasoline to clean a coin operated machine kept in a small room. The United Novelty Company.
- [150:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Not recommended. Not recommended.
- [150:44]
Paris Martineau
The room was kept warm by a gas heater with an open flame. He was killed when there was an explosion caused by a bizarre sequence of events. Unknown to Mr. Daniels, there was a rat inside the machine he was cleaning. The gasoline splashed on the rat soaked its fur in the words the rat quote, attempted to seek sanctuary beneath the heater where it overexposed itself and its impregnated coat and returned in haste in and in flames to its original hideout, which was the machine that Mr. Gas Daniels had drenched in gasoline. The flaming rats returned. The gasoline machine combined with the gasoline, gasoline vapors that filled the small room caused an explosion that killed Mr. Daniels. Mr. Daniel's family sued the company for failing to enforce its own rules against using gasoline to clean machines and one they want, Mississippi. The court held that the company should have foreseen the risk of fire or explosion resulting from the use of gasoline to clean machines. And the fact that it was a foreseeable risk, an explosion was caused in an unforeseeable way did not exempt the company from liability. I don't know. It's a great museum exploring about how tort law and a variety of like product or other liability suits have emerged as ways for consumers to fight back about against cope.
- [152:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Were they, were they baffled that you weren't a lawyer? I mean you were just interested?
- [152:15]
Paris Martineau
I was like I'm a journalist, I written about this somewhat.
- [152:19]
Jeff Jarvis
I also qualifies you.
- [152:22]
Paris Martineau
I didn't realize this until I was explaining this to my friend on the airport side this morning. I was like oh yeah, I went to the twirl. He was like oh my gosh, Paris, my. This is my friend who explained baseball to me. He sent me years ago a photo of this shirt which led to me being obsessed with this museum and that's why I was there. And I was like wow, full circle. So now I have a flaming rat shirt.
- [152:42]
Jeff Jarvis
How long did you spend there, Paris?
- [152:44]
Paris Martineau
At least an hour. And it's a small museum.
- [152:48]
Jeff Jarvis
I have to say the 360 degree picture of the museum on the website really doesn't it's ghost. It goes back and forth down this hall. It's not. It's not really expansive. There must be more than that.
- [153:01]
Paris Martineau
There's another thing around there. There's a car. There's, like, a car in there that I'm forgetting the name of the one that's dangerous at any speed.
- [153:07]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, the Corvette. Yeah, yeah. Ralph Nader. There's Corvair.
- [153:10]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of.
- [153:12]
Jeff Jarvis
That's a big. That's a bar.
- [153:13]
Oh, wait a minute. I found it. Oh, this is good. It's like an adventure game. I found a door I can open. I can open the door. Oh, there's the Corv.
- [153:21]
Kevin Kelly
Oh.
- [153:22]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh.
- [153:24]
Paris Martineau
If you go over to the right, there's like. That's a bunch of, like, interactives.
- [153:27]
Jeff Jarvis
This is the thing that Paris wouldn't let me show last time because she didn't want it to be spoiled.
- [153:33]
Paris Martineau
To be spoiled. And I'm glad it's missing right now. There's room. Those. That is. It shows films. And so I watched a couple short films about it.
- [153:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, this is good. You don't really have to go to Vermont.
- [153:44]
Paris Martineau
You should all go. It's not in Vermont.
- [153:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Turn the sound down.
- [153:47]
Yeah.
- [153:49]
By the way, the Corvair was a cool car.
- [153:51]
It's just unsafe at any speed.
- [153:53]
Yeah.
- [153:54]
Oh, do not clean with gas. Here's the Flaming Rat.
- [153:57]
Paris Martineau
There's the Flaming Rat.
- [153:58]
Jeff Jarvis
We Love United Novelty Co. Vs. Stan.
- [154:02]
Paris Martineau
I had to. I had to go behind the counter and ask the woman, be like, I'm sorry, do you have any shirts? The Flaming Rat on it? Yes, we do. I kept telling them they should put those out because I think people are more interested in them. The Flaming Pinto. And I was like, you're right.
- [154:14]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [154:16]
Paris Martineau
So that was my first stop on my road trip. I really was there to go to the Bread and puppet theater, which we talked about briefly last week was doing.
- [154:23]
Jeff Jarvis
How was that satisfying?
- [154:24]
Paris Martineau
Phenomenal.
- [154:25]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [154:26]
Paris Martineau
It was a really cool, like, ritual where a bunch of people dressed up like specters of death and, like, it was part. Oh, you went to an eventual of Sam Hain. I'm probably mispronouncing it, which is like, recognizing both the passage from fall into winter, but also, like, communing with ancestors and like.
- [154:47]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, yeah.
- [154:48]
Paris Martineau
Hosting to those you've lost. It was really wonderful. But I also then went to the actual Bread and Puppet museum, which is in this old farmhouse, which I put a link of somewhere anyway. And these puppets are insane. I've never seen more puppets in my entire life, Much less, like, larger amounts of puppets. I posted a couple photos. It's on line 167 or 1 61. And the thing. But I don't know, just was a lovely time. It's a group that has been doing puppeteering since, I believe, the 60s. Originally in Delancey on delay, Nancy street here in, like, the Lower east side. Then moved up to Vermont and has kind of taken over a warehouse.
- [155:29]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow.
- [155:29]
Paris Martineau
I got, like, some interesting. Like, I know. I got some interesting art as well. Yeah.
- [155:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow.
- [155:34]
Paris Martineau
I know. It's crazy. This is all in a giant, like, barn. Like, these are, like. That guy's, like, 20ft tall. It was really cool. Would recommend to anybody who like weird art. And then I got a bunch of cool little posters.
- [155:48]
Jeff Jarvis
Affluence feeds on hunger. All right.
- [155:52]
You also got cheese. You got. What other weird places did you go?
- [155:57]
Paris Martineau
Oh, gosh, what other weird place did I go? I went to the museum of everyday objects, which is a museum much like the puppet museum, where kind of no one works.
- [156:06]
Kevin Kelly
There.
- [156:06]
Paris Martineau
You let yourself in, and it's a museum dedicated to small, everyday things. I went to a lot of antique stores. I went to the Billings Farm museum and working farm, and I met a bunch of cows.
- [156:17]
Jeff Jarvis
This was a.
- [156:17]
Yes. You petted cows?
- [156:19]
Paris Martineau
I petted three cows, which I've wanted to do. I haven't. I hadn't pet a cow before. And I remember.
- [156:23]
Jeff Jarvis
Next time you're in Petaluma, let me know. I can. You could pet all sorts of farm animals out here.
- [156:27]
Paris Martineau
I will, because I love petting farm animals. Had a lovely time. Just really enjoyed the drive.
- [156:35]
Jeff Jarvis
I love it that you did that all on your own in your. In your Toyota Camry. I just. I can see it.
- [156:41]
Paris Martineau
And then it was like. And it was snowing the Saturday night after the ritual. So then I. I was. I. Why? That's the one hotel I did book. And I made sure it had a hot tub. So then I did some snow. Hot tub.
- [156:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Breakfast or hotel?
- [156:57]
Paris Martineau
Hotel. But they made coffee. It's like a small hotel. It's like a. It's like a. In style.
- [157:02]
Jeff Jarvis
Okay. All right.
- [157:03]
That sounds everything up there.
- [157:05]
Yeah. Yeah.
- [157:05]
Paris Martineau
I was about to say I'd never been to Vermont before. Huge fan. Vermont. Fantastic state.
- [157:11]
Jeff Jarvis
It is. Yeah, it is. Long drop syrup and cheddar cheese. What more could you ask for? Really healthful.
- [157:20]
Paris Martineau
It's true. It's all you need.
- [157:22]
Jeff Jarvis
Jeff, you're slightly mad at me. Oh, and Gizmo. Did Gizmo miss you? Did you have a Gizmo sitter or was she on her own?
- [157:28]
Paris Martineau
She. When it's like 36 hours, I just do a auto feeder situation because frankly she is more upset if someone invades her space.
- [157:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [157:38]
Does she punish you when you get back?
- [157:40]
Paris Martineau
No, but she does. It's very cute. Whenever I like had like my little carry on suitcase and whenever I like put it down, she immediately like gets on top of it and like digs her claws into it so that she can't leave me again.
- [157:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Our cat urinated in my suitcase. My open suitcase that I was packing. Clearly did not want me to leave. Yeah, we are famous in Germany, says Jeff Jarvis.
- [158:07]
We are so. So I want you to play this at exactly the three minute mark. This is. I'm going to explain first. I spoke in Mediantage Munken Media Days Munich, and my friend Richard Gutierre, who's a, you know, tech journalist from way back, was in conversation with him and you need to hear how he introduced me for three minutes.
- [158:31]
Kevin Kelly
Jeff Jarvis is Emirate theater.
- [158:36]
Jeff Jarvis
Leonard to.
- [158:37]
Kevin Kelly
Professor of journalism for innovation under City University of New York's crack.
- [158:47]
Jeff Jarvis
Wow, that jingle has traveled. Holy cow.
- [158:53]
Paris Martineau
How did he. Where did it come from? I know, but how did he know?
- [159:00]
Jeff Jarvis
He watches the show.
- [159:01]
Paris Martineau
Hello. Shout out.
- [159:04]
Jeff Jarvis
That's amazing.
- [159:04]
Yeah, he's a really nice guy. Wonderful, nice guy.
- [159:06]
Wait, so you. Wait a minute. You were in Germany between the last show and this.
- [159:10]
No, no, it was the one. I was gone. I was gone for a week.
- [159:13]
Oh, that's right, you were gone. Okay.
- [159:14]
Yes. I just put the video of the entire conversation up in the social so you can see it there where I called you dead.
- [159:20]
That lesson. It's called lessons from the US media crisis on Mediantag Munchen on YouTube.
- [159:29]
Paris Martineau
Look at. You look like a man who's speaking German.
- [159:32]
Jeff Jarvis
I did.
- [159:33]
Did you do the whole thing in German?
- [159:34]
No, I didn't do any. I did one sentence in German. I said, was it that sentence? And they started applauding. I said, mitfield Hilfa von Google Translate.
- [159:52]
Well, I'm sure they were very happy that you. You at least attempted a little bit of German and then, you know, excellent English. We do a photography show with Chris Marquardt who lives in Hanover, and his. His English is impeccable. Yeah, yeah.
- [160:07]
No, they're amazing. They're better than ours. And then you know what I have to say about bridges.
- [160:11]
Oh, no. Ladies and gentlemen, here is a huge Chinese bridge about to collapse. I'll turn off the sound because this is the shocking moment. A 2,500 foot bridge collapses. Brand new in a cloud of dust just months after opening. Nobody's on the bridge.
- [160:30]
They met it. They did stop it. Thank goodness.
- [160:32]
Thank God. Do they know why it collapsed?
- [160:34]
Yeah, there was a. There was a. An avalanche of rocks or something. You think they would have figured that out?
- [160:39]
Paris Martineau
The bridge's fault?
- [160:43]
Jeff Jarvis
Don't blame the bridge, Jeff. Blame the rocks.
- [160:48]
If you're gonna live next to rocks, you better figure out how to stay up. There goes the bridge.
- [160:53]
This has never happened. To the Golden Gate Bridge. I just want you to know, Jeff, never. Not once.
- [160:58]
Would you knock wood, please?
- [160:59]
Knock wood. Mr. JJ. Jeff Jarvis. We had KK ll and JJ on the show, and PM. You were the only outlier.
- [161:11]
Paris Martineau
What's everybody's middle names? Have we done this in the show yet?
- [161:14]
Jeff Jarvis
No, no. I think we know what yours is, though. Paris, which is Albania.
- [161:20]
Paris Martineau
I don't know.
- [161:22]
Jeff Jarvis
Cheese.
- [161:24]
Paris Martineau
Mine is Gabrielle.
- [161:25]
Jeff Jarvis
Gabrielle.
- [161:26]
Oh, that's nice. Oh, that's very nice.
- [161:27]
Yeah, very nice in French. Your. Your parents are Franco files.
- [161:31]
Paris Martineau
They are.
- [161:32]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [161:32]
Paris Martineau
What do you guys. So pgm. This is why I asking.
- [161:36]
Jeff Jarvis
PGM is an excellent.
- [161:37]
Excellent. That's good.
- [161:41]
Monogram. That's the word I was looking for.
- [161:45]
Paris Martineau
Oh, you're also Gabrielle.
- [161:46]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm Leo. Gabrielle. Jeff.
- [161:49]
Kevin Kelly
Are you.
- [161:51]
Jeff Jarvis
I'm. I'm breaking the chain here. I'm Alan.
- [161:54]
Paris Martineau
Oh, we have discussed this before, I think, because I don't. I had some sort of comment last time with Alan. I think I did.
- [162:01]
Jeff Jarvis
After my maternal grandfather I never met.
- [162:04]
Oh, nice. I'm named after my grandfather, who I. Gordon. But I met him. But he was. But he passed when I was, I think, two, so I never. I don't remember him.
- [162:14]
Paris Martineau
I'm just trying to imagine a show hosted by Gabrielle or Alan and Gordon, and it's a very different vibe.
- [162:21]
Jeff Jarvis
It is.
- [162:22]
It isn't the same show, is it?
- [162:24]
Paris Martineau
No, it's not.
- [162:25]
Jeff Jarvis
It's the Gabrielle Gordon Allen Show.
- [162:28]
No, my father's name.
- [162:29]
Paris Martineau
We all wear turtlenecks and we're all roughly the same age.
- [162:35]
Jeff Jarvis
And it spells gag.
- [162:39]
Paris Martineau
You have to stop.
- [162:43]
Jeff Jarvis
She's cheese drunk. It's amazing.
- [162:46]
Paris Martineau
Cheese drunk.
- [162:46]
Jeff Jarvis
I guess she's drunk on cheddar. Jeff Jarvis is the author of the Good Gutenberg parenthesis and magazine. Hot type comes out in the June. Make sure you check that out as well.
- [162:58]
Great books@jeffjarvis.com, links to order it.
- [163:01]
Yes. Jeffjarvis.com oh, pre. Orders are already open. That's nice.
- [163:04]
Yes, they are there indeed.
- [163:06]
And of course, you'll find them at Montclair State University and SUNY Stony Brook. When he's not on this show. Paris Martineau is at Consumer Reports. She goes to Yonkers every once in a while just to see what's.
- [163:21]
Paris Martineau
Just to see how it's going.
- [163:22]
Jeff Jarvis
Just see how it's going. You find them. Find her at Paris nyc. And of course, Jeff and Paris join us every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly.
- [163:33]
Look what I just found.
- [163:35]
Paris Martineau
Check out my website because it's looking cool right now.
- [163:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Is it? Did you update it?
- [163:40]
Paris Martineau
I did.
- [163:42]
Jeff Jarvis
What did you use?
- [163:44]
I found in Bronxville, which is right next to Yonkers. I looked. Is there a cheese store there? There is.
- [163:50]
Ooh. I gotta say, if you had that on your dating profile.
- [163:57]
Paris Martineau
I do think it would clean up.
- [163:58]
Jeff Jarvis
You would meet some very interesting clients.
- [164:01]
Paris Martineau
Okay, go to the contact page. Next.
- [164:03]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, my gosh. She's got her cell phone and she's not afraid to use it in her bolo tie and her gray shirt and plaid gray suit.
- [164:20]
Paris Martineau
Hey, listen, we do it all. We do it all.
- [164:23]
Jeff Jarvis
You look so serious in the contact photo. Like you really. You're really making a call there. Really?
- [164:28]
Paris Martineau
Yep.
- [164:29]
Jeff Jarvis
Really getting serious. Anyway, very happy to have you both on the show every Wednesday, 11am I'm.
- [164:36]
Sorry, not 11am we are giddy to be here.
- [164:38]
Giddy, giddy, giddy to Giddy up. Giddy up. 2:00pm Pacific, 5:00pm Eastern, 2200 UTC. Yes.
- [164:45]
Paris Martineau
You know, as you're saying, times and dates. You know what's happening at a time and date. Monday, 5pm Eastern.
- [164:53]
Kevin Kelly
Whatever.
- [164:53]
Paris Martineau
Other times, Back to the maze.
- [164:57]
Jeff Jarvis
Back to the corn maze. Club Twitter.
- [165:00]
Paris Martineau
Micah, get that makeup on again. And if he isn't, we'll be mad.
- [165:04]
Jeff Jarvis
He is a scarecrow. He does a great scarecrow. Paris, of course, is the world famous Kathira Longswallop.
- [165:13]
Paris Martineau
Guys, they gotta cancel the show.
- [165:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Paris Martin.
- [165:17]
Oh, that almost needs a. Hey.
- [165:20]
Hey. Well, you can't believe how much restraint I showed the entire time we were in the corn maze. But I didn't do it. We will go back in the corn maze. Also joining us will be Ham. What is it? Helm Hammer. Bland. That's better known as Paul Thurat. Jonathan Bennett. I can't remember what his character's name is. And Jacob Ward. And we are going to do part two of the horror in the cornfield. 2pm Pacific, 5pm Eastern. That should be a lot of fun. I'll be there as playing your faithful bard Sag Bottom, the cheerful, playing my bagpipes. And I promise, no AI. I will write all my insults by hand. Okay.
- [166:08]
Paris Martineau
Wow, he's a real boy now.
- [166:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Inkwell, yes. On the other hand, you know, if you look at this image of you with the ears and the phone.
- [166:18]
Paris Martineau
The phone that is upside down. Love that.
- [166:21]
Jeff Jarvis
No, it's a phone on the.
- [166:22]
Paris Martineau
Oh, no, it's a phone SAP. Oh, that's very fun.
- [166:25]
Jeff Jarvis
So you can use it as a piece of paper. Yeah. I like the green leather jacket. That is magic wand.
- [166:32]
Paris Martineau
The green leather blazer.
- [166:34]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [166:34]
Kevin Kelly
That's a good look.
- [166:35]
Paris Martineau
Fantastic.
- [166:36]
Jeff Jarvis
Cai is okay. That's, by the way, one of the reasons you want to join the club, because not only do we do these fun shows. Chris Marco will be joining us on Friday. We've got Micah's Crafting Corner on Wednesday. We've got the D and D Adventure on Monday, but we also give you ad free versions of all the shows, access to the Club Twit Discord, and all the cheese you can eat. All you have to do is go to Twit TV Club, Twitter, Twit cheese not included.
- [167:02]
And next week, we have one hell of a guest. Two big stars in a row.
- [167:06]
Don't. No, don't. No, don't. She's gonna swig Vermont. She's gonna swing from the maple syrupal.
- [167:15]
Paris Martineau
It's only mine, so it's fine.
- [167:19]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. Kevin mentioned one of the people that we think a hundred years from now our ancestors will say, thank God they were here. Jimmy Wales, the creator of Wikipedia. Jimbo will be joining us next week.
- [167:32]
Paris Martineau
I'll finally be able to get my own Wikipedia page next week. You'll see it here, folks.
- [167:36]
Jeff Jarvis
I don't think he's open to lobby.
- [167:38]
Paris Martineau
I know, I know. I'm joking.
- [167:41]
Jeff Jarvis
But, you know, I bet you you'll have a Wikipedia page before next week.
- [167:45]
Yeah, probably. I'm just saying, God knows what's going to be on it. Paris.
- [167:48]
But we know what the picture will be. Yeah, that should be a lot of fun. Join the club. That's what supports all of this work. Oh, wait a minute. Who needs a cell phone when you've got a brick of Swiss? There is Kathira Long Swallow, I guess.
- [168:10]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [168:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. I don't know why they keep giving you pointy ears, but that's because it's.
- [168:15]
Paris Martineau
I'm an elf. That's appropriate.
- [168:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, okay. Okay. Your character is okay. Are those prison tats or are you just crying? I can't tell.
- [168:25]
Paris Martineau
Why not?
- [168:26]
Jeff Jarvis
Both could be. Both could be. You cried and then they tattooed them back on. Hey, that's Magic Club Twit. That's where the magic happens. Go to Twit TV Club. Twit. Sign up today. We've got a coupon for 10% off the annual plan. Great for gifting for yourself or loved ones for the holidays. That coupon ends on Christmas Day, so do it now and we will see you all back here next Wednesday.
- [168:51]
You better be here. You better be here right now.
- [168:55]
Jimmy Wales.
- [168:56]
Paris Martineau
It'll be a whale of a time.
- [168:58]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. Thanks, everybody. See you next time on intelligent machines.
- [169:03]
Kevin Kelly
I'm not a human being. Not into this animal scene.
- [169:09]
Paris Martineau
I'm an intelligent machine.
- [169:13]
Jeff Jarvis
Introducing family freedom from T Mobile. We'll pay off four phones up to $3200 and give you four free phones, all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com familyfreedom. Up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card. Typically takes 15 days. Free phone via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement. Example Apple iPhone 16128 gigs $829.99 eligible trade in. Example iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end in balance due if you pay off early or cancel contact us.