Into Africa Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Back to basics: Africa’s bid for two permanent UNSC seats
Host: Katherine N. Suzuki (CSIS)
Guest: Amb. Martin Kimani (Executive Director, NYU Center on International Cooperation; former Kenya Permanent Representative to UN)
Date: September 11, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Katherine N. Suzuki speaks with Ambassador Martin Kimani about Africa’s ongoing campaign for two permanent seats on the United Nations Security Council (UNSC), the historical context, the implications of recent U.S. support, and the profound strategic challenges ahead. Their robust discussion addresses the complexity of reform, Africa’s internal leadership questions, the need for meaningful AU reforms, the strategic significance of demographic trends, and the global geopolitical transformation underway. The tone is candid, reflective, and unsparing in its appraisal of both opportunities and obstacles.

Key Topics and Insights

1. Why Africa Needs Permanent Representation on the UNSC

• Equity & Historical Injustice: The absence of Africa among the permanent UNSC members reflects a colonial legacy, given most African states were under colonial rule when the UN was formed.
  • Kimani: “Africa has no permanent representation and no veto, reflecting the fact that the Security Council and the UN were created at a time when most African countries were colonies.” [02:00]
• African Files Dominate the Council: Most crises handled by the UNSC involve Africa. Permanent representation would “vastly empower” Africa’s own peace and security institutions.
  • Kimani: “The majority of crises that the Security Council handles are African... that peace and security architecture would be vastly empowered by being represented in the permanent ranks.” [02:30]
• Need for Global Leverage: Permanent seats (with veto) would enable Africa to address its security challenges with the necessary global input, recognizing conflicts have regional and international dimensions.

2. The Long Road to Reform

• Ezulwini Consensus & AU Ambitions: Africa’s collective push for UNSC reform dates to at least 2005 with the Ezulwini Consensus, a reflection of a more ambitious, self-determining continent.
  • Suzuki: “How long have African countries been pushing for permanent representation?”
  • Kimani: “I think it actually started in 2005, if I'm not wrong.” [03:45]
• US Support is Symbolic, Not Decisive: Washington’s recent endorsement for two seats is significant but only marks the beginning of a “long and bruising negotiation.”
  • Kimani: “Let’s not get overly excited... there's no fait accompli... The United States does not get to say this is how global governance is going to go. Those days are passed.” [05:07]

3. The Critical Question of Veto Power

• Origins & Purpose of the Veto: Originally intended to keep post-WWII powers invested in the UN and prevent conflict between them.
• Africa’s Different Vision: Unlike current P5 members, Africa’s demand for the veto isn’t rooted in global hegemonic ambition, but the right to defend collective interest.
• Unanswered Strategic Questions: There’s little clarity on the practical use or strategic doctrine for an African veto—how it might actually be wielded remains under-examined.
  • Kimani: “Has the veto been thought through by the framers of Ezulwini and other African leaders who keep demanding it? I don't think so. I haven't seen any cogent analysis.” [10:40]

4. The Hurdles of Charter Reform

• Required Process: Expansion of the UNSC requires:
  • Agreement of all current P5 (each has veto power)
  • Two-thirds majority in the General Assembly
  • Ratification by two-thirds of all member states, including all five P5
  • Possible invocation of Article 109 for a Charter review conference
• High Bar for Consensus: The technical and political hurdles are steep, and mere pronouncements by external powers (like the US) are far from a guarantee.
  • Kimani: “You would have to have the agreement of all P5 members... and then ratification by 2/3 of UN member states, including all P5 members.” [11:50]

5. Who Represents Africa? Risks of Fragmentation

• Potential for Division: Direct allocation of the seats to specific African countries risks turning the AU “into a club of two giants and 53 minnows.” [15:14]
  • Kimani: “The power of subtlety and even disguise and sometimes even invisibility in geopolitics is underestimated... The African countries that would get picked... may start off as strutting peacocks, but they'll end up as plucked chickens.” [16:13]
• Burden of Responsibility: Permanent UNSC membership is more than status; it entails broad responsibility beyond Africa—engagement in global issues like Ukraine, Gaza, Myanmar, and more.
  • Kimani: "It's not just merely what you do in the Chamber in New York that matters. It's your reach globally." [17:00]
• Current Candidates: South Africa, Nigeria, and Egypt are natural contenders, but none presently exhibit the level of responsible, assertive global engagement required.
  • Kimani: “There are a number that have the financial means, they have the regional strength... South Africa and Nigeria... Egypt would certainly have a lot to say for itself.” [20:41]

6. Alternative Proposals for African Representation

• AU Commission Seat & Rotational Seat:
  • President Paul Kagame (Rwanda) suggested on X: one permanent seat for the AU Commission, a second rotating among African states.
  • Kimani: “The revolving seat... opens up the opportunity to have a sort of hierarchy of worth. Which countries best reflect the aspirations of the decisions made by Africa for itself?” [26:18]
• Vision Over Power: Representation should reward countries advancing continental integration and peace, not just “muscle.”
  • Kimani: “This is not...a contest of strength... We need to flip it from a contest of strength to a reflection of vision, of insight, of principle.” [28:10]

7. AU and African Leadership: State of Affairs & Necessary Reforms

• A Crisis of Leadership:
  • Kimani: “Africa is dealing with a crisis of leadership... Many African leaders not only bring very little credibility continentally, but even at home are barely holding on.” [31:15]
  • The era of transformative continental leadership (e.g., Mbeki, Meles, Obasanjo) is greatly missed.
• AU Reforms Essential:
  • Implementation of lagging reforms from Kagame’s initiative, especially fully funding the AU independently—“you do not get to be independent... when your bills are being paid for you.” [34:43]
  • Calls for greater decisiveness, re-separating political affairs and peace/security, and more innovative youth inclusion.
  • Kimani: “Africa needs a youth assembly... with structural input into decision making in a big way.” [36:20]

8. Youth, Demography, and Education

• Future Workforce: By 2050, 1 in 4 people will be African; Africa will comprise much of the world’s working-age population.
• Urgent Education Reform:
  • Kimani recounts meeting with Michael Crow, President of Arizona State University, who told him:
    • “You guys need to be producing not thousands, but hundreds of thousands of engineers... your universities are so conservative... when in fact they should be completely open to innovating new models of producing quality quickly and affordably.” [41:00]
  • The quality and adaptability of education needs radical innovation to realize Africa’s demographic dividend.

9. Africa in Multilateral Forums (G20 and Beyond)

• Questionable Leverage: AU’s accession to the G20 (now G21) has yet to be translated into substantial collective gains.
  • Kimani: “You wouldn't be asking me that question if it had done so. We would know.” [43:01]
• Strategic Diplomacy: African states need to restructure their foreign ministries to focus on global power platforms (G7, G20, BRICS), not just regions.

10. Africa and the Changing Global Order

• Africa’s Moment Amid Multipolarity: Africa’s demographic dynamism and growing collective ambition coincide with instability and opportunity in the liberal international order.
  • Kimani: “We have everything to play for. Africa is not a dystopia. Africa is not failing. Africa is actually struggling to emerge... We only need to keep that in mind.” [50:00]
• Calls for Self-Determination: Africans must lead their own agenda, recognizing past global neglect as an opening for agency, not as a disadvantage.
  • Kimani: “We shouldn't be scared of neglect... Africans need to understand that we're going to have to do this on our own. And in fact, we are sufficient to it.” [52:49]
• Collective Self-Love & Pan-Africanism: The episode ends with a hopeful message on cultivating a collective continental consciousness as the foundation for global participation.
  • Suzuki: “A sense of a collective self-love as an act... of Pan Africanism... we need to hold ourselves to high regard.” [58:30]

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Kimani on US Endorsement:
  “Let’s not get overly excited... there's no fait accompli... Those days are past.” [05:07]

• On Burden of Leadership:
  “To wish on yourself permanency in the Security Council year after year... is to assume a considerable burden as a state.” [15:55]

• On African Countries Seeking UNSC Seats:
  “They may start off as strutting peacocks, but they'll end up as plucked chickens.” [16:21]

• On Visionary Representation:
  “I'd rather a member of the Security Council that is driven by a vision of African integration and African peace and security more than a country that's trying to measure its muscles.” [28:10]

• On Leadership Crisis:
  “Africa is dealing with a crisis of leadership... many of them are so underwhelming... not because of a sense of mission but... their own very narrow and petty interests.” [32:00]

• On Demography and Opportunity:
  “We have everything to play for. We only need to keep that in mind. Africa is not a dystopia. Africa is not failing.” [50:00]

• On Young Africans:
  “All the failures of leadership are creating their own negation. And the young Africans are not just sitting still.” [56:18]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Context: [00:01–03:28]
• UNSC Representation & Ezulwini Consensus: [03:28–05:07]
• US Endorsement & Global Negotiations: [05:07–06:48]
• Veto Power Explained: [07:18–11:19]
• Charter Reform Process: [11:19–13:29]
• Risks of Fragmentation, AU Reform Needs: [15:00–20:04]
• Which Countries? Leadership Dilemma: [20:04–24:58]
• AU Commission, Rotational Seat Proposals: [24:58–28:09]
• Leadership Crisis & AU Reform: [30:26–34:07]
• Education, Youth, and Reforms: [37:51–42:36]
• Africa in the G20 (G21): [42:36–45:42]
• Strategic Diplomatic Reordering: [45:42–48:26]
• Africa’s Place in a Multipolar World: [48:26–54:02]
• Concluding Reflections, Pan-African Consciousness: [54:02–59:16]

Conclusion

Throughout the conversation, both host and guest emphasize the necessity of not simply inclusion, but genuine transformation and agency for Africa within the global order. Africa’s bid for UNSC permanent seats is a test case for broader challenges facing the continent: leadership capacity, strategic vision, institutional reform, and leveraging unique demographic advantages. The conversation is honest about internal deficiencies but ultimately optimistic about Africa’s opportunities in the coming decades.