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- [00:06]
A
Hello, everyone. This is Katherine Nzucki. We'll be back to our regular schedule in two weeks, and in the meantime, I wanted to have an informal chat, slash coffee chat with the Africa Program intern, Darrell Lloyd. Darrell, welcome.
- [00:23]
B
Thank you for having me, Katherine.
- [00:25]
A
So I wanted to do this with Darryl because I get a lot of requests to do coffee chats, and I found that my answers over time are often similar. So I figured I might as well democratize this information and like the tips and tricks I picked up along the way. But obviously, take these with a grain of salt. This is my singular experience. I'm in my mid to late 20s. Whoa. And, you know, my frontal lobe just finished baking. So this is what I have to offer at this age. Darrell, would you like to introduce your first?
- [00:59]
B
Yeah, of course. My name is Darrell Lloyd. As Kathryn said, I'm the intern here at the Africa Program at csis. Yeah, I was growing up in Kenya and Rwanda, and I'm happy to be here.
- [01:11]
A
Awesome. So Darrell drafted some questions. I haven't seen them. I wanted this to be as organic as possible. So over to you, Darrell.
- [01:21]
B
All right, I think just to get us started, what first inspired you to focus your career on African affairs and international policy?
- [01:29]
A
Oh, part of it is the global experiences I've been fortunate to have. I was born and raised in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, from when I was 9 until I was 11. My family lived in Oman in the Middle East. And then I spent the last five years of high school in Eswatini, in Babani. Eswatini. And so part of it was the lived experience of seeing all the things that, as humanity, as, like, humans, we have in common. And then the other half was that I was a big model United nations nerd since I was, like, in eighth grade. And so I. I guess, yeah, since I started doing mun, I was like, I think I am really interested in international relations and international affairs and how countries communicate with one another and affect one another and are linked, both in our history, but also, you know, now.
- [02:24]
B
In the present and throughout your entire time. I guess getting more into this space. Is there a pivotal moment you can point to that influenced your approach to, let's say, research? For example.
- [02:38]
A
It'S probably been a few key moments. I was really fortunate to go to the high schools I went to, but particularly the high school I went to in Eswatini. We had really great English teachers, but specifically when you got to the last two years of high school, the IB level, I did higher level English literature. And we had this really cool teacher that helped us understand the power of a well formed sentence, if that makes sense. And how you can have all these great ideas, but how you communicate them is what really matters. And then I went to college in Maine, of all places, Bates College. And my first semester I took a class with Professor Bill Corlette Colt Western Political theory, which I thought would be, like, boring, but it was actually really changed my life because I remember I asked him in our first week, like, what's the standard for a good essay? And he was like, the people you're reading, I expect your work to be as good as them. And I was like, oh, is the sky the limit? Great. And so he really, like, pushed me to keep working on my writing. And the only way to do that is by practicing. But on research. I was a politics major, and so I think I was prepared really well to ask questions and try and not only find answers, but communicate them well. I was lucky to have really small classroom sizes. Like, by the time you got to sophomore year, even junior year, senior year, I've been in classes as small as like five people and one professor. And so you just get so much attention paid to your research and writing. And so, yeah, I guess that's a long way of saying, I give props to my teachers.
- [04:22]
B
Yeah. Shout out to Mr. Corlette.
- [04:23]
A
Yeah, Bill Corlette. What a guy.
- [04:25]
B
Okay. And keeping all that in mind, what are some of the biggest challenges you've encountered in this role or just working in the field more broadly?
- [04:33]
A
Yeah, that's a good question. I would say adjusting from college level writing to the very specific kind of writing we do at csis, at a think tank, where the audience is no longer Bill Corlette, it's policymakers, it's different stakeholders. And so that was an adjustment, I think, like coming being, quote, unquote, an outsider. Like, I came to the US as an international student, and so my first experience of the US was Maine, which, you know, isn't the bustling hub that D.C. is. And so I had culture shock when I moved to D.C. because it's just a different part of America. But also, I suppose, like, having faith in myself, that was a bit of a challenge in saying, okay, yes, I'm not American, but I just having the feeling of I have something to contribute to these conversations. It took a while to build that up, but it's like a muscle, you know what I mean? You build that up, you say, okay, I'm in this space for a reason. I have something to say and I have opinions And I have opinions on other people's opinions and it's okay to communicate them, if that makes sense. So, yeah, the culture shock of moving to D.C. and like, I mean, you know, people of color will all relate to this. Like, being in spaces, you just kind of have to, like, have faith in yourself and the work that you did to get there.
- [05:57]
B
So keeping that in mind and your unique experiences coming to D.C. as an international student, what advice would you give to someone with a similar background trying to break into the think tank and policy research space in DC Especially as it relates to African issues?
- [06:12]
A
Yeah. So I would say, you know, when. Well, first of all, first of all, just to say it is a really rough job market right now. I've had a lot of people reach out because they are applying for the summer internship here, which is good. Apply. But we've already seen way more applicants than I've personally ever seen in this role. And so the first thing to understand is that it's a numbers game, right. And that the more you apply, the more opportunities you give yourself. But the second piece of advice, like, be gentle on yourself. I mean, even when it's not a tough job market, people hiring tend to have a very specific idea of what the skills they're looking for. And so align yourself as much as possible. Well, let me backtrack a little bit. Do your best apply, but be easy on yourself. That's number 1, 2, 3, 4. Be prudent or go the extra mile. So I receive a lot of COVID letters, like, filled with typos, filled with grammatical errors. I know people are churning out like, so many job applications, but please, please take the time to like, double, triple check your work. Because especially when it comes to research roles, the first exposure I have to your writing is your cover letter. Right? So that's your first opportunity to make a really good impression. So don't squander it. For, let's say somebody's coming from Tanzania and they've studied international relations and now they want to break into this field, I would say you have a paragraph in your cover letter that other people don't have necessarily, which is your lived experiences. And so be sure to add that. Right. If you're saying, I have an interest in African affairs, I've done this coursework, I've taken this data course, but also I am Tanzanian and I've lived in these cities. And these are some of the observations I've made. You don't even have to be from the continent. Maybe you studied abroad in Ghana. Talk about that honestly, even if you haven't stepped foot on the continent, I mean, try, but obviously it's not cheap. And so there's some people who just have a sincere interest but haven't had the opportunity yet to go try. Look for virtual internships. Just try to look for something that helps ground you in the field that you're looking to study in. And yeah, play up to your strengths, play up to what makes you unique and make it clear what you bring to the table. The last piece of advice, which is something that Darrell did when he was applying, is especially for think tank roles, like, read recent publications that have been written and if you make it to the interview stage, try, come up with specific topical questions that can make your interviewer go, oh, that's interesting because A, what you're showing is, one, I have read your recent work and two, I've been able to engage with it critically and come with questions, right, that aren't just me regurgitating what you wrote. So that would be my advice. Oh, and put the right company name on your cover letters. Man, I know, like, honestly, it is so hard job apps are so, so, so hard. But please, please go the extra mile to make sure that everything that you are submitting looks good. Last thing I would say, this is, in my opinion, don't, don't use ChatGPT for your cover letter. A, it's all going to look the same, right? And there isn't good software out there to discern what is AI and what isn't. But I would say at a time where a lot of people have access to these language models that are churning out pretty milquetoast, you know, cover letters, having a writing style, having a flair, having personality in your writing really sticks out. And like, you know, when I see cover letters like that, it makes me happy because I'm like, this is something that somebody wrote, right? This is something that has some personality to it. And so as much as you can, please try to show how you write and what makes you unique and find your voice in your writing.
- [10:30]
B
Well, this summer's opening application, you received hundreds and hundreds of submissions and you obviously have to review all of these. You talked about how writing style plays a big part in it. You talked about how international experience works in your favor, but if you can't, there's alternatives out there. So speaking more to that, because we obviously have people who can't afford, or as you mentioned, it's very pricey to travel, what could be a nice substitute for that? If you're looking to break into this Africa policy space, but you can't afford to visit the continent. Is there any specific examples you can point to?
- [11:02]
A
Yeah, I'm sure. I mean there's probably so many. Engaging with the diaspora if you're here in D.C. d.C. Has one of the biggest Ethiopian diasporas in the US and in the world, period. Get involved in your local community, attend these cultural events, try to make friends, try to learn more about the people around you. The cool thing is you can find Africans just about anywhere. I was in Maine, I'd be walking down, you know, our campus and like Somali teenagers would pass me speaking in Swahili and I was like, right, right, right. So we're everywhere. Let's just say you're somewhere where there isn't really a much a large African diaspora population. Like volunteer online, volunteer with organizations that are helping people resettle and so on. There's just so many ways to get involved with people from the African continent without physically being there in a way that is constructive and will help you sort of enrich what you already read on paper. Because it's one thing again, you know, you can read male and guardian South Africa and you can read the East African and so on and that's good and you should. But yeah, I think ultimately when we're talking about international relations, like sure, we're talking about a state and state to state relations, but states are made of people, right? And like, so it's one thing if you want to study Ethiopia's history, but do that and try and engage with your communities. And I think it just makes for. It makes you a better person. Right? Like I think it probably ends up making you well rounded. But yeah, just showing that that interest go goes beyond the classroom is really important and there are just so many creative ways that you can do that.
- [12:51]
B
And also real quick, before we move on to the next section, as far as resumes, do you have a preference as far as length, even points within each job that you've had?
- [13:01]
A
Yeah.
- [13:01]
B
What can you speak about that? What stands out?
- [13:03]
A
I don't have a strong preference, but I would say keep it to a page. I remember when I was applying to CSIS and I was asking for tips. Her name's Laura, she used to work for AILA here and she said if you're just graduating college, there is nothing that you have done that cannot fit in one page. And I was like, you know what? Real because yeah, try to put it in a page. The advice I give a lot of people because you're applying to so many different places is have a quote unquote master resume that has all of your work experience, all of your volunteer experience, all of your campus experience, and then make tailored resumes for each field. Right. So if I'm applying to think tanks, try to show your coursework, try to show your experience with writing, try to show your experience juggling multiple tasks and responsibilities. Usually can do that by saying, I do XYZ clubs and this and that and that. Versus if you are applying for a UN internship, I'm sure it would be different. If you're applying for a consulting internship, it should be different. So the best way to save yourself some time is to just create this really long document with everything that you need and then make tailored resumes that play up to your strengths. But try to keep it at a page.
- [14:27]
B
Okay, Moving on to interviews. So from your experience, what helps candidates perform well in interviews, whether it's for research or policy roles or just think tanks in general?
- [14:37]
A
Yeah, I would say practice, practice, practice. If an interviewer is asking you, I mean, everyone hates this question, but what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses? This should not be the first time you've thought through this question, and this should not be the first time that you've tried saying it out loud. And the interviewer should not be the first person hearing this answer. Get your friends, okay? And practice, practice, practice, because that's the only way. And when you. At least for me, the more I practice, the less nervous I become. And so there are all these resources online. I mean, now with AI, you can just ask it to churn out questions for you. So that's one. Practice number two, there's something called the Star Method. You don't have to do this. But for me, whether it's been when I was applying for jobs or just trying to find ways to pitch myself, it's been great. I think it stands for situation, task, action, Action and result and result. And there are more guides out there, but on how you should weigh each portion of this. But the Star Method is good if you really struggle to condense information. As is clear from as I'm recording this, that's something I try to do sometimes.
- [16:01]
B
I actually used it when I was interviewing with you guys.
- [16:05]
A
It's such a great way to streamline your thoughts to get to what is actually important. And so when you're asked, how do you juggle multiple tasks and responsibilities, what I'm really looking for are examples of you doing that, but actionable examples. I don't want you to say oh, I'm in three clubs in college. I'm looking for. I'm the treasurer of the Da Da Da Da Feminist Collective, and I am also a volunteer with my school's Africana club. And I do Da Da Da. And these are the tasks that I do. And this is how I manage multiple specificities. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So the STAR method is good. So we've covered practice, we've covered the STAR method for think tanks. Specifically. Read. Please read what that program has done recently. It'll give you a really good idea of, like, the questions that people in that team are asking themselves and what they're looking for. It may come up, it may not come up, but it's whether you bring up a question in, you know, the question portion of your interview or, I mean, at least with the AFCA program, we tend to be very conversational and chill. And so if you talk to me about your college paper on security issues in Nigeria, you can then say, and I also just read your recent report on this, and I found that it is interesting. Now, does it feel weird and like, suck up ish? Yeah, it does. It feels awkward. It feels really strange. But I promise you, what you're signaling is I've engaged critically with the work that you are doing. And then if the organization has a funny name. Not a funny name, but if the organization has like a long name or something like that, just maybe put a sticky note so that you remember people get nervous and instead of saying csis, they'll be like CIS or C, you know, and it's completely fine. It's not something to disqualify you. But having a little sticky note will be helpful, especially if you're doing multiple interviews. It's easy to lose track. Yeah, those would be my interview. Oh, and then the best advice I got, because if I get nervous and rambly was my drama teacher in grade nine, and she said, before you answer, take one really nice deep breath and breathe out. Then answer. Because it just kind of gives you a second to center yourself and make sure you're putting your best foot forward. And the breath might feel long to you. For everybody else, it's like nothing. So take a nice breath and answer.
- [18:48]
B
So moving on to networking as a junior staff member or even an intern, it can often feel like a daunting task to approach someone who's in a much more senior position and ask for a piece of their time. And so how would you recommend reaching out to professionals whose work interests me? And should I ask for informational interviews or Is there a better approach? What is the etiquette?
- [19:11]
A
Yeah, it's. That's a great question. I'm a big believer in shooting your shot to like 100%. If you want to talk to somebody, you should reach out. When I was starting this podcast, I reached out to Sean Ramasfram, who's the host of Today Explained, which is my favorite podcast. And what I did, which is a formula that has worked for me, is obviously a very polite greeting. If you don't know them, stay on the side, be cautious. So call them. You know, start with dear, da da da da da. Don't be casual. One sentence introducing yourself, and then two or three sentences that actually show you've done more than, I don't know, skim their LinkedIn. So with Sean Ramsfrom, I mean, I listen to that. I listen to Today Explained every day, but he had a running bit about brat Summer, like Charli XCX Brat Summer. And so I was like, I hope you're enjoying your brat summer. I also enjoyed this podcast and that podcast just to show like, no, I'm not just reaching out on a whim. Like, I've taken some time to get to know you and then, yeah, shoot your shot. Ask for a coffee. Chat usually just say 30, can I please have 30 minutes of your time? But don't take it personally if they say no or if they're busy or if they don't reply because 99% of the time, like somebody's just swamped and busy. And if you're listening to this and I haven't replied to your email, double down. So reply if they don't. If you don't hear anything, circle back in two weeks. And if you don't hear anything after that, you gotta let it go and hope that you'll run into them organically. But the other half of that equation, and I think this is where people really stumble, is when you get to the networking call again, please come prepared. Almost like an interview, right? Read their work, have specific questions and be intentional in that you have prepared yourself well. But also be present. Because a lot of times I can see somebody asking a question and then immediately thinking of their next question, like, be there, be present, be chill. Like, engage with this person as like a human being that you are in conversation with. Like throwing out five generic questions isn't actually building a network, if that makes sense. Asking follow ups, asking tailored questions makes you more memorable and actually helps to build some sort of kindle, some sort of like friendship or connection that could then lead to that person being quote, unquote, in your network. Right. But if you just ask me, like, five generic questions, no follow up, no sort of nuance to it, it's not using this opportunity to the best of your abilities.
- [22:03]
B
Okay, so you've talked about the do's, now I want to hear a bit more about the don'ts. What are some of the common mistakes you see interns or junior staff making when they're networking in this space? And how would you advise our listeners to avoid them?
- [22:16]
A
Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'd say is always stay on the side of formality until you are told otherwise. So always start with dear, da, da, da, da. Look up that person's title. I've gotten a few. A few. Not too many. A few, actually, no. A few like doctor. And I'm like, I wish. Right. But that's not happening. Right. So, like, just. Just look up that person and make sure you're getting the right title. And God forbid, it's the inverse where they actually are, you know, they have that doctor in their title and you don't use it.
- [22:53]
B
So moving on, I guess, to now the social media side of things. Have you found LinkedIn or other platforms helpful for networking in this field, and do you have tips on how to use them effectively?
- [23:05]
A
Yeah, you know, I honestly used to be like, oh, LinkedIn. Everybody's like, I'm so grateful to announce. But then I started this podcast and I started making LinkedIn posts, and then that's how people have been finding the podcast. So I do have to swallow a lot of the things I've said about LinkedIn. Right, right, right. And it's like, so it's been helpful in helping me find the people that would be interested in this, would be interested in these conversations. And so, yeah, LinkedIn's good. I would say, on any social media, but especially LinkedIn, post what you are comfortable having reshared. I've seen posts with people frustrated, rightly, but, you know, railing against, like, an interview they had and, you know, even though they're trying to be cryptic. But, like, I think if you've got stuff to say, you gotta take it to your. You gotta take it to your, like, burner Twitter account or something, dude. Or you gotta take it to your close friends on ignorance. Don't bring that on LinkedIn. Think of it as a professional, you know, platform. And so, yeah, and the question of hot takes. I remember when I first started, there was a director here who was like, listen, y' all are young, okay? Sometimes we don't have the luxury of having super hot takes because, well, you're young and that's what you'll be judged on. Right. Versus somebody who's like, much further established. They can say what they want to say and they probably won't. I mean, obviously with some limitations, but they can. I'm being very vague for a good reason, but if you got a hot take, don't. Don't post it on LinkedIn and don't do it.
- [24:50]
B
So we've talked about the COVID letters, we've talked about the resumes, we've discussed the interview process. But now moving more into the weeds and the work that you actually do, are there any specific habits or routines you recommend for building strong research and analytical skills?
- [25:06]
A
Yeah, I mean, a lot of this is stuff I've picked up from the directors I've worked with and the fellows and senior fellows. I've, you know, reading the news, I know it sounds so like basic, but reading the news is really important. I know people here who wake up at 5am and spend the first hour of their day just reading up on things that have happened in their countries, in their regions. So that has really helped me as like a habit. I have a lot of news apps on my phone and I get a lot of alerts and those have been really helpful in just keeping me aware of what's happening. I say this a lot, but like, I'm like a podcast fiend. Like I'm constantly listening to podcasts and so the other way that I stay really up to date is just following a variety of new shows. I really like Focus on Africa by the BBC. Also BBC Africa DW has a really good podcast. And then for like niche or more specific podcasts, I really love the SMWX podcast. It started by Sizwe Mpolful Walsh. He's like a South African commentator and expert. So those have been good. In terms of research, I think the number one thing I've had to learn is that you're not doing this alone and that you can just send out emails to professionals who are experts in this field. I remember one of the coolest things I've actually ever been able to work on was the weeks leading up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the program I worked for at the time and the humanitarian agenda here. We got together to write about the possible civilian impacts of a full scale Russian invasion of Ukraine and I was like, how am I gonna talk about this? But then we just sent out emails to people working for the UN refugee Agency based in that area. We talked to people who work on humanitarian responses, et cetera. And through that we were able to form an understanding of what the immediate and long term impacts would be of this full scale invasion. And so the research doesn't start and stop with texts and books. You can learn from people really actively in the field because think tanks, we try our best to engage and go out, but there are some people who, if you're the UN refugee agency coordinator for Ukraine, you're just so much closer to this issue than we could ever be. Right? Yeah.
- [27:54]
B
Final question would be, as interns, we're looking for ways to stand out and kind of transition more to a full time position. So what qualities or skills do you look for in junior team members or interns who stand out?
- [28:09]
A
You've probably heard me say this a lot, but attention to detail is really important. Making sure that your work is good, understandable, clean. And it's such an adjustment from like college to a think tank internship because it's just a different way of communicating ideas, it's a different way of talking. But if you and Darrell can speak to this, like, if you just keep going at it, you will finally find not only what's good, but what it means to have attention to detail. And I think having attention to detail reliably, consistently means that people will give you more and more tasks. It's almost like, what's that thing people say the benefit of good work is? More work, you know what I mean? So if you just are consistent and have attention to detail, those are two of the really big things that we pay attention to. Of course, the other one is ideally internship roles transfer to full time, but especially in this job market, it's really hard. And so again, you gotta go easy on yourself. What about you, Darrell? What would you say you've learned since being with us from January?
- [29:26]
B
I would definitely say the ability to multitask. I know coming in, I thought that in my previous experiences that, you know, I was very adept at multitasking. But I feel like here in particular, because it is a smaller program, that you are assigned more work, but because of that, you do get to broaden your skills and learn a lot more new things. And so multitasking is definitely a very important skill to have as an intern.
- [29:55]
A
Have you found yourself reading more news?
- [29:57]
B
I have daily, actually.
- [29:59]
A
It's like it is just you because you're, you know, like, for example, we work with Cameron Hudson and very cool and is very knowledgeable on Sudan. And so sometimes he'll Be speaking. And it's like, huh, I should know this. And then all of a sudden, you're like. As soon as you see an article on Sudan, you're like, I mean, not only for Cameron, but also for, you know, our own edification, if you will. But you just find yourself. Or Vemba Dizolele, he's a DRC expert. He starts speaking. Eventually you're like, huh, I kind of. I would love to know more about this piece of, like, DRC's history. And so you just find yourself reading a lot of news all the time, and then not just reading it, but also digesting it and then starting to see patterns forming. Yeah. What do you think you would tell yourself? The version of you that started in.
- [30:53]
B
Like, mid January, I would say specifically for people who are focused on covering Africa, it's obviously a very vast continent, and so people do specialize in very certain regions. But I think reading about events that are outside of your expertise, I feel like can allow you to understand or give you a better thematic overview of what's taking place on the continent, because I think it is very easy to get caught up in a bubble when you're covering an entire continent. So reading things that are outside of your expertise will help to broaden and give you a bigger perspective on what's really going on.
- [31:28]
A
I agree.
- [31:28]
B
Yeah.
- [31:29]
A
And even just. I mean, ultimately, part of what we do at think tanks is finding trends that are forming. Right. And really the only way to do that is by staying up to date on what feels like everything. And then, Darrell, maybe my last question for you is, have you learned anything about networking? I mean, you just staffed a podcast interview with His Excellency Peter Obi right now, which is very cool. Have you learned anything about networking or talking to experts through your time here at CSIS and the exposure to all the really incredible people that come through our doors here?
- [32:09]
B
I think, yes, I definitely have. I think one thing that you mentioned earlier that I feel like is certainly key when you're speaking to people who have the jobs that you hope to one day have as well, is really reading and engaging with their work. Because these people spend countless hours alone writing and trying to churn out material for the world to read. And if you take the time to really engage with their work, they will truly appreciate it. And that can be a way to strike up a conversation as well. So really taking time to read their work.
- [32:41]
A
Yeah. Oh, and actually, that reminds me, if there's another really big piece of advice I have for networking is please network across a. Because these are your peers, and you should try and make friends, right? Like, if you're all doing, I don't know, UN internships, you're there because surely you have some sort of interest in what you're doing. But also, secondly, like, the person who's the intern next to you ten years down the line, that person might be your boss, right? So do it for yourself and for the joys of friendship and the joys of fraternity and community. But if you're gonna do it for selfish reasons, it's because these people will be your boss at some point, you know, or you'll be working together in some high level. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And so as you're both progressing in your careers, you'll inevitably keep interacting and keep intersecting. So, yeah, talk to your mate. Chat with your mates. I can't help. I can't even begin to describe how phenomenal the friendships are formed here at CSIS are. And all the people who've come and gone, but have left me with so much advice and knowledge and tips and just helped me thrive. That's part of that, is just taking the time to build friendships with people. Sissa tuamaliza. Tuamaliza. Guys, thank you to Darrell, our outstanding intern. Thank you all for listening. And we will be back in two weeks on our regular schedule. All right, bye. Bye.