C (6:18)

Thank you, Dr. Bugaje. Cardinal Nayakon, would you like to add some thoughts on this question as well?

A (6:24)

First, I would like to confirm and agree with the impressions that Dr. Bogaje has just brought out, namely this bomb that fell on Christmas Day. We are still asking, what for? What was it supposed to do? Was he sending a message? And if so, what message was he sending? After the bomb, Nigerians were waiting to see how many terrorists were killed, Want to see dead bodies all over the place or to see their camps scattered? Instead, it was just rhetorics of people who had their own agenda telling us how wonderful this air strike from America has been. That air strike coming in the middle of the whole discussion in Nigeria about whether the United States and in particular Donald Trump, can move into Nigeria, guns blazing and boots on ground, to protect and defend his Christian brothers. A serious situation was created by that. The bomb simply came as almost as if to confirm those who have fears and to maybe also to confirm those who were looking forward to an American invasion in Nigeria. Dr. Bogadi has said it very well. What probably we need to add to that is this. Even among us Christians, there are Christians who are really looking forward to a massive invasion of Nigeria by America to deal with these terrorists whom according to them, Muslim terrorists. And so the bump was for them, oh, finally they have arrived. Provided we are happy that they come in. Who cares about sovereignty on the Muslim side? The threat of Donald Trump to invade Nigeria was taken very seriously by the Muslim community. And we have seen a lot of reactions on social media, said, will I wait for him, Let him come, let's see what he's going to do. And if that is all he's doing, we are wondering, is it worth the trouble? And my own position and my own feeling is that that event, whatever it was that was sent, was not helping us in Nigeria. Because I'm one of those who believe that the problem of the religion peace in Nigeria is not going to be solved through through a zero sum game. It's not going to be as if we will have peace when everybody becomes Christian or we'll have peace only when everybody becomes Muslim or we will have prince when everybody will agree to be under the domination of one or the other of the religion. No, we must work towards situation where Christians and Muslims are working together for a peaceful nation where we have so far not done badly living together. Finally, the only thing I can say, if that movement, if that bump on Christmas Day woke our government up to take seriously the fact that they must deal with insurgency, then well and good we will thank God for it. But for the moment, I have not seen anything of that nation. All we are waiting for is when our country will be safe.

C (9:32)

Thank you so much, Cardinal. And let me pick up on the point that Both you and Dr. Booger J. Have made about the divisions, the deep divisions that exist in Nigeria. Nigeria has already been said and implied by the both of you. Nigeria is deeply divided along ethnic and religious lines. And even though people choose to live together, there are high levels of tolerance. There are also high levels of mistrust. And very often this mistrust is manipulated by political actors. You, Cardinal, and working very closely with the Sultan. And I know Dr. Bogaje, you've also been involved in many of these conversations over the decades where you've been working to bridge religious divides through interfaith dialogue in Nigeria. Could you provide sort of an overview on the current state of interfaith mediation in Nigeria and given your years of service and experience working in this space. What progress do you see now and what challenges do religious leaders like yourselves still continue to face? Cardinal Nayakon, why don't I continue with you on this question?

A (10:42)

Fifteen, 20 years ago, I used to go around the whole world proudly with my chest up, head high, telling everybody in the world that they should come to Nigeria and see how Christians and Muslims have managed to be able to live together in peace and in mutual respect. A nation of over 200 million people and 100 million on both sides, a nation where there is none of the two religions is dominant and therefore where we respect one another. And I was doing so very, very happy with our nation and looking forward to when we will resolve the other issue that was remaining in the question of our Christian Muslim relations we were working on. I'm sorry to say that when I go out now abroad, the other Europe and America, I'm no longer so optimistic about the situation of Christian Muslim relations in Nigeria. And it is a great pity. It is a tragedy that in the last decade the atmosphere has changed considerably. Now when I speak even to my own constituencies, when I speak in church and I'm talking in way of asking people to realize that we are all children of God, we are all citizens of the same nation. Let us work together for peace, you get some kind of reaction even in the congregation that it seems as if Cardinal doesn't know what is happening in Nigeria. The rhetoric of Christian Muslim antagonism and rivalry has increased. And the only reason I can see for that is the fact of the violent terrorist activities that have taken place in the last 10 years or 12 years claiming to be Islamic. And because they were claiming to be Islamic, it gave Islam a bad name. Christians considered them as acting on behalf of the Islamic faith. And that's where we begin to hear discussions about Islamization, about persecution, even about genocide. The Islamic community in Nigeria, for me, cannot really exempt itself from addressing these criminals who are calling themselves Muslims. Who else can address them? Certainly not me, not we Christians. And we have discussed this often between me and the sultan because the earlier, the first reaction from the Muslim community, our friends, is to say these people are not Muslims, to stop calling them Muslims. And above all, Christians in the vast majority call them Muslims and accuse whatever they are doing is judged as being either supported by the Islamic community one way or the other. And that is where the rise in insurgency has poisoned our national atmosphere. In this regard, of course, the state, which is the big elephant in the room, has completely failed in its duty to ensure the safety of citizens, whether they call themselves Muslims or Buddhists. If they are killing innocent people, it is the responsibility of the state to deal with them. Unfortunately, this has not been happening. We don't know whether it is because the state is unable or because the state is unwilling. And there are people who are talking about some elements strong in the state that are complicit in what is happening. Whichever way you take it is still not good news for Nigeria in all this. Where do religious leaders come in? We do have our limits. Maybe that goes to another question later about the role of religious leaders. But to conclude, our ethnic differences, our religious differences on their own have not been reasons for us to kill ourselves. Indeed, we must not forget that even our religious differences, or rather our religious identities, have often somehow brought different ethnic groups together. When I go to church on Sunday, the people I meet in front of me in the church, I'm not Igbo myself. They are Igbos, they are Yorubas, they are Hausas, all there. They are Christians. And the imams has the same thing in the mosque. So somehow these two religions, Christianity and Islam, has done a lot to bridge the gap between our ethnic divide. And I think the same happens the other way around in terms of ethnicity, that when you go home, your ethnic meetings, you have a meeting in which your brothers and your cousins are Christians and Muslims. So we should not see these two elements, ethnicity and religion, as necessarily leading to big problem and disorder in the nation.

C (15:17)

Thank you, Cardinal. Dr. Boogaje, let me turn to you on the same question, but I also want to pick up on a point that Cardinal Nayakon made about the role of the Muslim community too, as well as in calling out those who are using Islam or claiming their terrorist activities under the banner of Islam. Want to pick up on the point that he made about the role of the Muslim community in calling out those individuals. Is the Muslim community doing enough to call out those individuals that are masking their activities under the banner of Islam?

D (15:52)

Thank you, Olgi. In the first place, let me just before addressing your question, go back to a point which I share with the Cardinal. I mean, the impression that Nigeria is deeply divided, I think is not quite accurate. Yes. On the Internet, social media, and this is all construed and sponsored by people who really want to create this division. And I think it is the politicians that are weaponizing identity because politicians who are not competent on their own tend to use these sentiments to climb to power. So there is a lot of sponsorship of false, if you like, divisions. You only need to look at the fact that the sokoto caliphate, which is the seat of the nigerian muslim leadership, has from 1953, hosted a Catholic diocese which is run up to this day. And that diocese has continued. There has never been any particular threat to it. And people have become comfortable relating to the christians. That location. You can point to a number of other places where there are christian communities living with the muslims. Adamawa is another very good example. If you go to gombe, if you go to many states in the country, the muslims and the christians have developed a way of working together. Remember, there are a number of communities where the same family have got both muslims and christians. And this is what you get in the northeast. And they celebrate the age of the muslims together, and they celebrate the christmas together. And there are many scholars who have, in fact, attacked the idea of a few radicals that say that you cannot eat the food of the other because the quran's position is very clear. So when muslim scholars, or very little learning or using sentiments as part of those instruments of division and come out with these things, There are muslims who immediately counter that. And I have known in the last few years, and especially one of the organizations I run, the arya movement for good governance, they do in their iftar, that is this month of ramadan, they. They come together as a group of scholars, and they invite the christians to attend their iftar and they break fast together. They do prayers, you know, for the country together. So there are lots of things that are happening that are not maybe properly reported. What gets reported usually is the bad news, you know, people using social media. So my view is, and this is the view of the sultan, that the situation is not as bad as it is portrayed by the media Is the fact that politicians, both the ones in america and the ones in nigeria, are busy weaponizing identity, Creating this impression of strife. On the specific question as to the claims of people who are creating insecurity to be muslims, those who are under the muslim leadership, they have been controlled. You have got extremist groups of tendencies for extremism that has been controlled by a number of means within the sultanate and within the sufi brotherhoods, within the. What they call the al sunnah, the isala groups, you know, so all these would listen to the authority of the sultan, and they will work under him. And they come to him, to sokoto, to seek his blessings, to seek his consent in a number of things that they do. But others who would not listen to muslim authorities Were primarily not from the muslim authority. They were taken, trained, funded, and programmed to do what they are doing so. They are outside the reach and the control of the Muslim community. But if the Muslim community were to have its way, and the Sultan had conferences with the traditional institutions or traditional leaders, they have produced a report with the understanding of the governance. They have put this report which would have dealt with this. This is in 2022 and now three years or more. Nothing has been done because the governments are not interested. This report has been presented to governors. They said they were going to work on it. They did not. These are ways we can deal with these elements.

C (21:09)

And just for clarity, Dr. Bugaje, what report is this for the listeners that may not be familiar with the report that you're speaking about?

D (21:17)

Okay. The Sultan at a certain stage got the traditional institutions together to address the same issue, that these people claim to be Muslims. And we know they are not Muslims under any of the existing authorities. They were selected, funded, trained, program, but we have a way to deal with them. So the Sultan called for a conference in 2022 with the understanding of government, because police, army, customs, immigration, all the paramilitary forces were all brought together and the issue of how to deal with these bandits and insurgents were discussed. And after this discussion, the traditional institution set up a committee. That committee produced a report on how to deal with this. This report was returned back to the governors and all the northern governors were there. And this report was stable. They accepted it. They said it should be implemented. But then they withdrew. They did not fund it. They did not even allow it to take off later on, which is sometimes last year when they saw a rise in the insecurity. They came back to this report just this last December. They called for a meeting. The Sultan came and this report was presented and they accepted it. But they are still dragging their feet. But the point I'm making is that this report, if it was allowed to be implemented from 2022, perhaps we will not be talking about the kind of insecurity at the moment. The point is the Muslim leadership have the capacity to control this, but the traditional rulers do not have any power in the Nigerian constitution at the moment. So they are limited by that particular constraint. They can only advise the government. And clearly the politicians are not interested in bringing to an end the insecurity situation in Nigeria. It's not that the Nigerian army or the Nigerian police or the totality of the Nigerian armed forces don't have the capacity to deal with the rag tax army. It would appear to be a policy of government to allow this thing to continue if they wanted to. It could have been Finished a long time ago. This is the general view of many informed Nigerians.

C (23:57)

Thank you so much, Dr. Bugaje. I see a whole different episode now that will break down governance and insecurity on Nigeria. But I want to come back to, to sort of the conversation on religion where religion is really identified as an important aspect of everyday life in Nigeria. And the role of religious leaders too as well is also one that is very important in helping to resolve conflict. And in some cases religious leaders too as well are also at the forefront of instigating conflict in some communities. So given that Nigeria has this really vibrant religious landscape and the country also has some of the world's largest churches and one of the most vibrant Christian communities in the world. So given this narrative of Christian persecution in Nigeria and Cardinal Nayakon, I want to come to you first with this question. Please help us understand the reality on the ground given Nigeria's vibrant Christian community and this narrative of Christian persecution, help us understand the reality on the ground of what role are religious leaders playing in mediation and reconciliation, especially in communities that are heavily impacted by the ongoing insecurity.

A (25:21)

I would like once again to agree with my brother Usman indeed that our problem is not with religion, but rather what people have made of religion. It's interesting that Dr. Mbukaje has mentioned this roadmap or plan of action that the Islamic religious leaders had put together in a document which the government has failed to take notice of. And according to my brother, this would have been a way out of our problem. But I also mentioned that it appears that the politicians are not interested in resolving the problem of insecurity in the country. Now that is a very serious statement which I fully support. Now it seems our government is not interested in the well being of its citizens starting from the security of life and property. What are they interested in then? Well, we could say they are interested in grabbing power so that they can use the power to have full control over our natural resources and begin to make themselves rich. That is the situation we are in now. In that situation to start talking about religious leaders, who are we? What can we do? We have no army, we have no police. We can preach all right in the church. And even all these politicians, they do attend mosque, they do attend the church though some of them actually they keep away from the church where anybody will talk to them. They don't want to be guided. I don't know where that is leading. But to come to your question, we have for a long time now wondered at the fact that Nigeria is indeed A very religious country and yet it's a country that is full of corruption and wickedness. By wickedness I mean killing. Because killing is going on, kidnapping is going on. So the religious leaders are completely powerless. And if the government does not do its duty, there's not much that we religious leaders can do. Nobody can blame us for not preaching to them enough. You already said that the churches are full and the mosques are full and the pastors and imams are busy trying to our best to preach. Beyond that, what else can we do? But I believe it is not a problem that we cannot solve. If we have a good government that will look at reality, that will not tolerate any bad behavior by its citizens, whatever may be the excuse they are using, whether it's religious or ethnic, if government is doing its work, many of these things will go down. Now, as far as Christianity, many Christians claim that they have been oppressed for a long time. They have been discriminated against. And of recent time we are hearing that the many Christians are claiming that they are being persecuted and object of genocide. It seems that we are now hearing mostly I'm saying too that they too have been badly treated. And the latest attack in Kwara State was of a Muslim community. I would have thought that now we should stop attacking one another. I mean Christians and Muslims, we should stop accusing one another and realize that there is a big common enemy that is hitting all of us. When we reach that stage, when we are able to put our heads together to face the common enemy we have, namely of misguided elements who claim any religion to perpetrate atrocities, killing innocent human beings, abducting people for ransom, then we may be able to make some progress.

C (29:04)

Thank you, Cardinal. Dr. Bugaje, do you want to add on this question too as well?

D (29:09)

Well, I think Cardinal has covered the point. The emphasis is that the religious leaders I have the capacity to bring the two faith and work together. It has happened before and we can always go back to it because the basis for coming together and working together has not changed, it's still there. But then we have a regime where politicians are behaving irresponsibly and that is where the real problem lies. They are not quite ready to address these issues and they are not quite prepared to allow the religious leaders to actually bring in what is required in terms of advices to really fix the country. So it's something that is not sustainable. Eventually, we hope with more awareness and more education within the religious circles, a lot of these things will be fixed. If you go back to the histories of many countries from the period before Christ to date, there have been periods where societies, countries, communities, nations go through these kind of problems, Then they overcome and they eventually surmount the obstacles and become the countries that are great and they are a source of envy to. To many other countries. So we are generally very hopeful.

C (30:45)

Thank you so much. And I want to pick up on something that you said there and also something that the cardinal mentioned to you as well, and sort of a theme, the fact that there is insecurity. The levels of insecurity in Nigeria today impact everyone, Regardless of if you are Muslim or if you are Christian, regardless of your ethnicity. Everyone is impacted by the levels of insecurity. And ultimately it will fall on Nigerians to be able to address the current situation through honest and very uncomfortable conversations. I think we've moved into a space in Nigeria where honest conversations have to happen and these conversations will be uncomfortable. So how can Nigerian citizens get to a place where they can sit down together to have these types of conversations, the types of conversations that are needed to move the country forward? And what role can religious leaders like yourselves play to help foster an environment that can help facilitate these types of conversations? Because everyone is feeling the pain, everyone is feeling the pressure. And it's really important that these conversations happen and happen in an honest way. Dr. Bugaje, let me start with you on this question here.

D (32:13)

Well, for me, Ogi, this has actually started. This difficult conversation that you're talking about is actually has started. Maybe it's still gathering momentum, but I've had three experiences. Maybe time will not allow me to mention all, but maybe I'll just pick one. There was a time when this was about seven to 10 years ago, we realized that just allowing the government alone to continue will not solve the problem. So we initiated, and I took the permission of the sultan. We created in the northern part of the country where some of these things are known to have escalated to levels that create a lot of concern. Reached out first to the Muslim imams and the ulama. And we told them, I mean, we brought them together. We told them that there is no way we can continue to build our country without working with our Christian brothers. It took us time and there were people who challenged that. In fact, when I, in the first or second meeting and I mentioned the fact that we need to work with our Christian brothers, somebody stood up and said, they are not our brothers, you know, that we cannot work with them. And I had to now remind him of what the Quran actually said, that the Christians are actually the closest to the Muslims. And of course, by the time I made that point, others supported me. He had to give in. So we're able to put these Muslim scholars together. After that, I went with the chair of the Khan, that's the Christian association for Nigeria in the north at that time, Dr. Yakubam. And we summoned a similar grouping of Christians this time. We brought in the clergy, we brought in the politicians among them, we brought the journalists, we brought in academics. And we said, hey, wait a minute. We cannot continue to operate separately. We cannot allow politicians to come and divide us and create problems. They will escape and they will leave us. We have to sort this thing out. And then we sat down, we discussed the difficult issues, and we increased our number gradually until we got to a point where in the meeting of Muslims, we will get a Christian from that group to come and give a goodwill message, and we get a Muslim imam to attend that Christian meeting to give a goodwill message. After two or three meetings like that, we decided to have a common steering committee. So we put in a steering committee and we formed what we call the Ariel Movement for Good Governance. Why did we call it good governance? Because we feel all the crisis, both ethnic, religious, economic, social, are all as a result of bad governance. Therefore, the focus is, how do we create good governance? How do we fix governance? And we also did something which we find very interesting. We said, okay, Muslims, what is it exactly that you want in this country? Christians, what exactly do you want? Everybody agrees that what we want is justice and equity and peace.

C (35:32)

Thank you, Dr. Bhogaje. Cardinal Nayakon, do you want to add on to this question too as well?

A (35:38)

I was saying that there's a lot of conversation going on in Abuja right now and all over the country, people are talking. Unfortunately, much of the talking is more like different groups talking to themselves. You have Christian groups talking about what is happening to Christianity, different Muslim organizations, and then the political discussion, a whole rabble of noises about the political parties and what is happening to them. That's as much of what we are saying. But the kind of conversation you mentioned here, namely conversation where you have through honest and uncomfortable conversation that talks about the country in general. We bring people of different views and different positions together to speak together about how to make this nation a better place, that is not happening too much. We should not forget, however, that we did start NYREC about 20 years ago, Nigerian Religious council. Even though it decided to work on the basis of representative leaders of two religious groups, it had its own Advantage since we have leadership and authoritative members. But it's a disadvantage because the membership is not made up of people who are freely joined in the common conversation. And you will notice too that in Nairc there's always a kind of caution, almost self censorship. You don't want to say anything that might offend the other or you don't want to speak in a way that may say you are Christian. Why are you talking like this? So that's why Narek has not moved fast. But we can't expect Narek to solve all our problems. Which is why, for example, Dr. Bugalaji was very much part of it. Why the Sultan and I actually formed a small group of, shall we say, willing participants, Christians and some Muslims who would like to come together to talk. Not representing any special religious community. And we were meeting regularly but of recent our meetings have become very rare. Not as good as it is. We call it the Nigerian Interfaith Initiative for Peace. Peace going on. So what we will be asking for now in the present situation in Nigeria is that more and more of this meeting should take place bringing together people who have this general like mindedness about moving Nigeria together as one country where one is not merely interested in this rivalry between who is going to dominate who, where. It is not the question of how Christianity can overcome Islam and how Islam can stop Christianity. These are the conversations that is going on around us every day. Now we need a different conversation. We should still find a meeting and having this honest or comfortable conversations. What I'm doing between me and Usman, is it not an honest conversation?

C (38:28)

Yes it is Cardinal. It is an honest conversation and we want to have more of that. We could even go longer here. But you know, just picking up on a few themes that you have made or points that you've made. You know, we often hear when it comes to Nigeria, one step forward, three steps backward. Nigeria always gets to this uncomfortable point and then it pulls itself back. But today we see Nigeria is at an inflection point. And as has already been implied throughout the conversation, the country is shuddering under intense insecurity and and weak governance as it prepares for critical elections in 2027. In the midst of all of this, all these challenges, there are many Nigerian citizens, especially young people, young Nigerians who are working really hard to see the country progress. And at this point it's many people are saying, you know, it's either the country follows a path where it just implodes and nothing work or it follows a path where it, where people come together, address their differences and move forward as one country. So given this pivotal time in Nigeria, as respected religious leaders and leaders in the community, what recommendations would you give first and most importantly to the Nigerian government and Nigerian citizens? And then what recommendations do you have for the US and the broader international community? Dr. Bugaje, let me start with you before I come to Cardinal Nayeka.

D (40:07)

Well, first, Ogi, for the experience I have had and I don't claim to know everything, I'm really confident at the end of the day, the young people are looking not in terms of which religion will predominate. They are looking for a good life. They are looking for a good country. They are looking for a good future. A lot of them are educated enough to know because they watch other countries. Now social media has made it easy for them to see what other young people are doing, what other countries are doing. So they are focused on that. And what we need to be doing is basically to see how we can channel the energy of these young people, guide them in the best way to be able to create this. There are obstacles. Those who are holding political power at the moment, a lot of them are not practicing good governance. A lot of them are very poor education. A lot of them are into primitive accumulation. A lot of them are the ones who actually manipulate ethnicity and religion, weaponizing identity to be able to remain in power. So it's going to be a struggle for some time, but I'm confident because what the bad governors are doing is not sustainable. But what the young people require are basically two things. They require tenacity and they require tact and wisdom. And this is something that we need to continue to mentor them, continue to guide them in this respect. There are a number of other ways to do that. Religious leaders do that quite a lot. And what we have done from the Muslim side, and I've shared this with our Christian brothers so that they can also consider doing that, is that we have looked at the role of the Muslim ulema. A lot of them have become agents of the politicians. And especially in the 2023 elections when a lot of them went into this supporting the Muslim Muslim ticket, which many of us oppose because we don't think that is fair. We don't think it's equitable, we don't think it's sustainable. We don't think it was even necessary. So heaven from 2023 elections, we realized there is something in the way some of the Muslim scholars are thinking that is wrong. So what we did was to engage them immediately after the elections. In fact, we started the engagement, you remember there was an extension of the voting by another two weeks. So that gave like one month. So we used those one month between the two elections to start engaging the ulema. And we told them that clearly you seem to be missing quite a lot because the argument we are presenting are not supported by the text. And the way you are interpreting the text is quite dangerous because you are not representing Islam. And because we have engaged them, we realize the gaps in their knowledge. So what we did was to set up committees, especially those among them with PhDs who already familiar with modern research methods. We got a committee of them to write four areas that we realize there are gaps. And we came up with four books. And what we did with these four books is to take 12 of these ulema across board, meaning the different group that you find, the Izala, the Tariqa and any other groups you know, we brought them together. We did a zonal workshop on these books. And like, we have a collection of nearly 100 in the Northeast, about 100 of these from all the states of the North, Central, in Abuja, from all the seven states of the Northwest, in Jigawa. And we had these three nights and two effective days, and we went through these books and we were surprised, pleasantly surprised, that the idea was accepted. So that encourages now to go state by state, because the point is that you can condemn the ulama for doing the wrong things, but if you don't engage them and if you don't correct their understanding, then you are stuck, because then it's going to be a long fight. God knows when it's going to end. So, but this engagement to allow you to understand the gaps in their knowledge and these books that were designed and they were not written by a particular person, and we said, I will not bring a book from Egypt or from Saudi Arabia or from Muslim country, because that is part of the problem. Your books, written in the different contexts for different people, for different objectives, are sometimes brought in to a society that doesn't have that particular problem. And because you teach that book, then you create the problem which you eventually never solve. So we produce our own internal literature designed to solve the problems. And we have now covered about nine states. So the point is, we feel if we go this way, because a lot of the problems really we are facing is a problem of ignorance. I am quite confident, yes, we are living in very difficult times, but for the work we are doing, I am confident that we shall overcome.

C (45:29)

Thank you, Dr. Bugaje. Cardinal Nayakon.

A (45:32)

Well, again, I want to Support and confirm the concerns that Dr. Bogadjie has expressed with regard to how to update the logical perspectives of those who are teaching religion to our people at the grassroots level, namely the imams and the pastors. Because we are talking about Christianity and Islam. And we must admit the fact that both religions has a rather heavy baggage of bad history in terms of living a peace with one another. If you take the Christian religion, our theology for a long time has never been a theology of working together with Muslims. It has always been a theology of how we can either contain Islam or destroy Islam. And the theology of Muslims for a long time was that. And this is what was being taught in our seminaries and institutions where we train our imams and our pastors. As a Catholic, I am proud to say that my own church actually took a historic decision to change some of these things in our way of looking at our relationship with other religions through the work that was done in the big meeting we call the Second Vatican Council, which is whose documents we keep quoting today, to push our work to recognizing and expecting other religions to work towards us. Working together as children of the same God, working in the same direction. Now, this is not how it used to be before it required to change. But just to give an example, during the Second Vatican Council there was a document on religious freedom. A good number of bishops completely disagreed that there can be no such thing as freedom of religion because error has no rights. Now, coming from the point of view that only the Christian religion is the true religion, then other religions are false religions. They have no rights. So you cannot talk about freedom of religion. But as it turned out, the discussion went on and as we said, the Holy Spirit guided them. They came up with a very beautiful document which now has become a standard for us in the Catholic Church that recognize that freedom of religion, everybody is free to take religion. Now. I'm very happy to hear the work that Bubaji and his friends have done with regard to getting the imams to sit together, listen, going back to the elements of the Quranic teachings. It would have been wonderful if we found forums where those imams and the pastors can be put together on that wall to work together on this issue. Since they are all working together on the same problem, namely governance and good governance in Nigeria. I believe them to be a wonderful situation if we can create that kind of forum where the moms and pastors come together for that purpose. Cardinal Onaikon foundation for Peace actually works in this direction. We bring together every year for sometimes Christians and Muslim Leaders at the local and low levels for precisely this kind of thing, so that they can together talk together, pray together, eat together, dance and sing together. Now, this question of one step forward, two steps back. As a Yoruba man, for me, I'm used to a dance where we dance one step forward and two steps back. So one step forward, step back may not be a bad idea because sometimes you take a step forward and you realize that's not the right place to go. You go back, take another step forward, that the right step forward. So let's not worry about how many steps forward and how many steps backward. What I'm more concerned about is another thing that is going to the round, namely that we are dancing on the brink of chaos.

C (49:18)

Thank you very much, Cardinal and Dr. Bogadje. I remain an eternal optimist when it comes to Nigeria. And I've always found that music, or just the arts in general, helps to show a more human side to a conversation or to the struggles that people are facing in a way that is different from sort of the heavy, uncomfortable conversations that we've just had now. So I would like to know, as we close out this discussion, what are you most hopeful for in the case of Nigeria? And is there a book or a song by an African artist or a Nigerian artist, Nigerian musician that you would recommend to our listeners to reflect this hope? Cardinal, I want to start with you because I want to know the type of music you listen to and the books that you read. So, Cardinal, let's start with you.

A (50:14)

I don't know what to say. At 82, I no longer follow the latest trend in music at the word, the Chilean boys. And I don't even understand the language they use nowadays. The latest trend in music, I really have nothing to say. The only thing I can tell you is this, that most people in Nigeria, except the few who are in the corridors of power and who have access to massive resources, are complaining that they are very difficult and they are looking forward to a change. Now, I'm sure many of the people who do sing, they are singing these things now. They are not giving up hope because we cannot live without hope. Now I believe we shall get over it.

C (50:56)

Dr. Butaje, before we close out with you music, what are you most hopeful for?

D (51:02)

Honestly, I'm not as old as the cardinal, but at 70 plus, I am not really into. But I must say that I've seen young people coming together doing songs about building the country and uniting the young people. I don't know what the names of these Songs are. But once in a while I run into them and I think they are good to encourage. But in terms of books, I have three books that I would want, if it was possible people to. This is in addition to the four books we have written. One book is that of Muhammad Bello. Unfortunately it has not been published, but somebody has done a PhD on it. The book is called, it's an Arabic because they write in Arabic called meaning reflections. And this is about how society can degenerate and the kind of elements that one needs to address in recreating or rebuilding, you know, a society that is crumbling. I find that very, very useful. So Bello has written this book, Azikra, which I think will find very useful Reconstruction of society. The other book is that of a scholar, a very prominent scholar in Ahmedabele University. He died I think a little over a decade ago. His name is Yusuf Bala Usman. He wrote many books, but one particular on the manipulation of religion. And I think it's good that we understand this book because politicians are very good in manipulating religion. And that is part of the problems, you know, we, we, we are facing. Another book is the one that we. I made reference to Principles of Leadership according to Islam and Christianity. I think that will, you know, clearly make everybody realize that in actual fact there is not much difference between what the Quran is saying and what the Hadith is saying and what the Bible is saying in terms of governance. So in those areas that we share a common kind of text, if you like, we should be able to hold on to that, work together and build our own society. So these three books I think are important, maybe in the other books that we have written, one of them that deals with the issues of the philosophy or the goals and objects of Islamic law. We have addressed a particular issue which I thought I should mention. You know, we get perennial attacks. Some non Muslims make certain statements that are interpreted by Muslims to mean blasphemy. And they don't even wait for the law. They just simply lynch or attack, you know, people who have said that. Now that is clearly wrong. But bringing it in a book and teaching scholarship, who usually justify that kind of thing, we thought is the best way to address this issue. So in one of these books we have made it very clear that in Islam it's not your business to act on anybody that you think is. If you think he has done Blush Freeman, then you take him to the court. It's only the court. No matter how knowledgeable a scholar is, he cannot say that this person has done blasphemy or this person is no longer a Muslim. For what he has said is not for him to do so, it is for him to take it to court. And in a court there are processes very clearly defined. I think these are the books that I would say can do quite a lot in improving our situation and hopefully in fixing our country. The potential for Nigeria, as you know, is great. In the next 25 years, Nigeria is going to be over 400 million, is going to be the third largest country in population after India and China. And as you know, in 25 years, Africa would have the youngest population. The mean age would be 19, Europe would be close to 40, Asia will start aging. Mean age would be getting to 30. And therefore Africa has that potential for the future. And because of the resources in Africa, which are now stolen or wasted or whatever, you know, with good governance that would bring education and provide jobs to the young people, we are going to be the engine of the world for the next century.

C (55:37)

Thank you so much Dr. Bhagaji. Thank you, Cardinal Nayakan. I definitely know that we will have some more episodes on Nigeria throughout the podcast for us to also be able to unpack some of the themes that you highlighted during the discussion. So I thank you so much for the time that we've shared today and encouraged that we continue these honest and uncomfortable conversations. Just as the both of you have have started off here with us today. So thank you so much.

A (56:09)

Today is Ash Wednesday and the beginning of Ramadan.

C (56:12)

Yes, it is.

D (56:13)

So Lent is here, right?

C (56:15)

Yes it is.

D (56:15)

So we are all in it together.

C (56:18)

Lent in Ramadan.

D (56:20)

This is great.

B (56:27)

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C (56:32)

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B (56:35)

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C (56:37)

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