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- [00:05]
A
Welcome to Into Africa, a podcast where we explore Africa's geopolitical landscape, its evolving global role, and the challenges and opportunities shaping the continent's future. I'm your host, Oge Onborgu, Senior Fellow and Director of the Africa Program at the center for Strategic and International Studies. Foreign. As the conflict in Sudan enters its third year, on April 15, it has degenerated into the world's largest humanitarian catastrophe. While the humanitarian crisis deepens, international aid support has seen drastic reductions, forcing many humanitarian organizations to rethink their operations in Sudan. A recent Sudan Humanitarian Fund event, hosted on February 3rd by the US State Department, included pledges from regional and international partners, including the US and UAE, pledging $700 million. This event appears to signal renewed international attention to address the humanitarian funding gap, but it also highlighted the magnitude of the challenges in addressing this conflict. On this episode, I'm joined by two guests who will help us understand the current humanitarian situation in Sudan and unpack what effective humanitarian support could look like and where the opportunities and challenges exist. First we will hear from Ms. Haneen Ahmed, a Sudanese civil society activist. Then we will hear from Mr. Daniel Omaui, the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross delegation in Sudan. So Haneen, thank you so much for joining us today. I want to go ahead and dive right into the conversation. Here in Sudan today, grassroots mutual aid groups are playing a very important role in delivering humanitarian support. Can you share your experience and how this approach by these grassroots organizations, how the approach is different or unique from what other humanitarian organizations are doing in Sudan?
- [02:20]
B
Thank you so much for this invitation to reflect how the Sudanese crisis is the worst one across the globe. Regarding to your question, grassroots mutual aid groups through solidarity and economy they are playing a role to deliver the humanitarian support. And from my experience I can see how this model is fascinating model and is unique model because of the way this grassroots model is adapt to the situation because Sudan has a very diversified context, sometimes even in the same state, they have a diversified context from area to another and also how this organization can be innovative and creative to respond to the need from the ground. And I remember one of the mass evacuation in 2025, these grassroots models like emergency response rooms and local organization implemented on the ground. It has more than 200 rape cases at that time and immediately through linked and networking we are able to provide safe houses and psychosocial support to those rape cases and also evacuate more than 5,000 civilian safely to another safe states and safe areas. So this kind of response and this capacity is something unique where there is complete absence for the international community and for the governments on the ground also. The last point that I want to reflect is the amount of sacrifice that this youth group are providing to save their people life. The amount of time that they spend to preach the gap on the ground, and also the amount of money they are spending on the ground. It's millions of dollars. They are doing a great job with it.
- [04:10]
A
Well, thank you so much, Haneen, for laying that out. And in April of this year, the war in Sudan is entering its third year. And the depolarization and fragmentation of the social fabric in the country has actually been accelerated by the ongoing crisis. So how can Sudanese civilians effectively assert their voice to foster social cohesion and accountability in Sudan today?
- [04:36]
B
This is a very complicated issue in Sudan. And we know since a long time, the, you know, ethnic and other type of very complex war are being escalating through country. And the worst was the 2023 war started in Khartoum and then escalated around other states. But for the social fabric and how those group are suing the social fabrics. And I think it's kind of a new model of the community is being building right now with, as I said before, with the solidarity with the economy and with the sacrifice for your need, for your other brother and sisters in the areas that are needed the most. So the needs are huge in any states in Sudan. But sometimes there is states, like right now in Kurdofan, the conflict escalating. So the priority is Kurdofan. But also we are prioritized as our needs. But sometimes in Kurdofan, we say, like, hey, give this money to Kurdofan and we can wait for our needs for this time and through this catastrophe, through this solidarity, through how we feel about each other, this kind of renew approach, it's actually suing the community fabric. It's building, as I said, with the new model, to move on from all the obstacles that faced the community in the past decades. And even sometimes in the way that people solving the problems inside the mutual aid groups and the emergency response room, the criteria or the idea that they are using to solve the problems. It's also kind of the new model of dialogue, if we can say, of building peace, and I think we can through time, we can move on from the obstacles that Sudanese community facing. And it's kind of unifying that the nation, our nationality, original work in Khartouman Azar areas in Sudan, there's actually a.
- [06:34]
A
Lot of this work being done at the local level to address the fragmentation and to build Social cohesion. So I think keeping that in mind, knowing all these efforts that are, as you've laid out, that are happening at the local level to build social cohesion. Recently here in Washington D.C. we saw an event that sort of launched a new Sudan Humanitarian Fund that, you know, it appears to signal sort of a renewed attention to addressing the humanitarian funding gap in Sudan. But I think it also highlighted the magnitude of, of the challenges, the humanitarian challenges on the ground. And at times when there are conversations on funding in some of these types of conflict situations, there's often a lack of sort of understanding about what the actual humanitarian needs are on the ground. So given your experience and the engagements that you've done at the grassroots level across Sudan or in different parts of Sudan, how would you advise the international community to effectively include Sudanese voices to better identify where the key humanitarian needs are and then to also inform the discussions or solutions to address some of these humanitarian needs?
- [07:53]
B
Yes, I think this is a really great question. From the experience of the since war erupted and how the Sudanese people organize themselves and building those kind of the mutual aid model across Sudan, these models are bringing new ideas of how protection can be, this new social fabric can be suing, how women can be participated and amplified their voices, the idea of that, even the leadership of the community itself, how they are presented and representing themselves and the idea of knowing how the work it can be done. And this is the most important thing right now in the war because even in the areas with the post war context, the consultation is highly needed. Someone is paying for more than two and a half years or almost three years. They know how this thing it work in this area and it doesn't work in that area even in the same state. So the conservation of the grassroots model, it amplify, as I said, Sudanese voices, it's even unify people because they are represented, they are knowing. And for example, we have experienced a lot of kind of funding, but at the end of the day we discover or we found that the localized fund is the most effective way to fund the grassroots model. When the international community invited us to those kind of the models, you know, it give us the, the space to speak and to reflect the real situation on the ground, the need that we need and even design a model that can matches and chime in with the situation on the ground. And I think this is kind of provide sustainable and accurate solution to the situation.
- [09:40]
A
So what I hear you saying is that even with the magnitude of this crisis, the solution from this has to come from Sudan, has to come from the Sudanese people. So it's important that Sudanese voices are included in the conversation.
- [09:56]
B
Yes, exactly. It should be included. While we are, of course, appreciated, any kind of international support to the Sudanese crisis.
- [10:04]
A
Thank you so much, Haneen, for your time. And I think, you know, with this final question here, I have always found that music and just the arts in general helps to show sort of the human side of the struggle people are facing in ways that conversations like these may not necessarily capture. And you have been involved on the ground even before the outbreak of the crisis in 2023. So given the current situation in Sudan today, even though it might be difficult to see bright spots on the horizon, given the current situation, what are you most hopeful for? And a second part to this question. Is there an African musician or a song by an African artist that helps, that you can share or you can recommend to our listeners that basically helps reflect this hope or what you are most hopeful for about the situation in Sudan?
- [11:04]
B
Yeah, I think what I hope for for Sudan and for African countries and all the countries are facing war right now is a completely peace for the civilians, protection, wealthy life and, you know, freedom that they need and they looking for and the freedom that we preach when we reach out or when we arrive to the US So I hopefully as soon as possible, they can reach out to their dreams that they lost it due to war or any kind of dictatorship that they are living right now. And I hope that for Sudan, I hope, of course, the beast that we stood up for it during the 2018 revolution. And the song that I recommended to the listener is Freedom. It's coming by the South African singer. Thank you so much.
- [11:58]
A
Thank you so much. Haneen. The work that you do on the ground and the work that other young people like yourself do is really what gives us hope in this situation. So thank you so much for joining us for this podcast today.
- [12:12]
B
Thank you. Thank you. Have a good one. So welcome.
- [12:16]
A
Daniel, thank you so much for joining us today. So diving right into the conversation and the current situation in Sudan, there are a number of humanitarian organizations working on the ground. How is the ICRC unique from some of these other organizations on the ground?
- [12:33]
C
Thanks, Oge. Well, I think there's two or three elements which distinguish the ICRC in terms of our engagement and our presence in Sudan. Complementing, by the way, what organizations do, we're part of a bigger ecosystem where I think we all play a role. And I think in a specific case of the icrc, it is that first of all, we are present with a mandate which stems from the Geneva Conventions. So in terms of the protection of international humanitarian law, which is the rules of war, so to speak, and which enables us also to engage directly with the different parties, the different warring factions, and have engagements on issues which are related to the violations international humanitarian law, this part of our work, which we call protection, this is in ICSE jargon and also prevention code complements we do also in terms of responding to the consequences of those violations. And this is key in any conflict, but especially in a country like Sudan, where what we see is that what is happening today, if you look at all the numbers, whether it be people displaced, disappeared, missing, detained or killed through conduct of hostilities, at the end of the day, we're talking about the result of a massive disregard to international humanitarian law. So the added value that we have is to work in this area and combine the whole prevention action with also dealing or responding to the consequences, especially in certain areas where we have some technical expertise, whether it be in terms of weapon surgery, restoring family links, etc. There's this combination which I think makes it unique for the icrc.
- [13:59]
A
And how long has the ICRC been operational in Sudan?
- [14:02]
C
Officially? I think we started back in 1978. And what is interesting about Sudan is that Sudan has been both a country where the ICC has been operational, but also from which the ICSE has been conducting operations. So Sudan has been both a receiver and a base for the ICSE. So, for example, I mean, in 1980s, when there was the whole situation, you know, the fight in Ethiopia against the Derrick regime, a lot of the operations of the ICSE were conducted from Sudan, then were involved in the whole north and South Sudan conflict, which eventually finished with the separation of both countries. So we have a long and quite dilated history in Sudan as part of the work which we've done in the Horn of Africa, which I think remains one of the key areas for the ICSC now and for the past 30, 40 years.
- [14:48]
A
So looking at the current situation in Sudan, with the. With the crisis, and the fact that, you know, it's been described as an overlapping crisis based on unresolved issues that have carried on for so many years into where we are today, how would you describe the ICRC's approach into working and addressing the current situation as we see in the country today, and knowing that there's so many actors involved in the space, international actors, local actors, what would you describe as a neutral approach in sort of the humanitarian sense, to address some of the gaps that we see?
- [15:24]
C
Interesting question. I will start with the neutrality element, because I think it's also something which we need to clarify. There's a general perception that neutrality sometimes equates it to. In lack of action, we just see what's happening and we don't do or don't say anything, which is not the case, quite far from it. Neutrality is for the icse. You know, we have certain principles which are moral, ethical principles in terms of impartiality, humanity, etc. Neutrality, interestingly enough, is more of an operational principle. And for the over 160 years of history of the ICIC, the realization has been that if you need to talk to those who are responsible for committing these humanitarian actions, atrocities, you need to have a degree of trust. And they need to know that the manner in which you engage with them is devoid of any kind of political agenda or ideological agenda or otherwise. So this allows us to be involved with them and also to create that trust, which allows to have conversations which are quite often very difficult conversations in terms of the. The way in which they're conducting themselves, always aiming to try to change the behavior or to try to change the way in which they're acting. Easier said than done. But this is also something which has to sort of be developed during quite a number of years. So that's why the fact that we're in Sudan since 1978, and that many of the people or many of the key actors we're seeing today, they were there 10, 15, 20 years ago. So they know the ICC quite well and they know where we're coming from and they know the type of conversations that we're having. So this is, I think, what distinguishes a bit the icrc. The other element is that, as you rightly say, this conflict, it's not really a single conflict. It's an overlapping of conflicts at the very local level, national level, and regional level. The fact that at the local level, we also work with the Sudanese Red Crescent, which is the largest humanitarian organization in the country, with about 20,000 staff and volunteers. And many of the volunteers are part and parcel of the community. Allow us to have that footing at the very local level and understand the granularity of all the different dynamics. At the same time, we're able to talk at the official level with the authorities, whether it be in Port Sudan, will it be Nyala? In order to bring issues more to the national level. And then at the wider regional level, we have also operations in neighboring countries. And quite often there are overappling interests which allow you to have these conversations. So, for example, if we need to talk about the effect of the Sudan crisis in Chad. We have our Chadian team, which is engaging with the Chadian stakeholders. And to top it all up, we have what we call our work in terms of humanitarian diplomacy, where the ICSE is present in many of the key fora, often as an observer to be able to place these humanitarian issues on the ground. So whether you talk about Davos, where you talk about now, the Munich Security Conference, where you talk about discussions within the UN General assembly, this is where we do the mobilization at the higher level. And our colleagues here in the Washington office are part of the effort. And me being air in Washington these days is also part of that combination of linking up the conversations at the higher level, the national level and the local level. And if you don't combine the three of them, you're going to be missing a leg in the stool, so to speak.
- [18:36]
A
That's very interesting. You know, I want to pick up on that. With the war in Sudan, as it moves into its third year, April 15, will be three years of continuous fighting on the ground in Sudan. And it's really the world's largest humanitarian crisis by any metrics. By any numbers you look at, it is the world's largest humanitarian crisis. And I want to pick up on a point that you made before we started this conversation where you said, you know, the war in Sudan, it might be fueled from the outside by regional actors, but it's fed on the inside by Sudanese actors, by local actors. As an international humanitarian organization, you've mentioned the importance of having Sudanese voices at the table towards finding a solution to this crisis, because the solution has to come from the Sudanese people. How do you ensure that Sudanese voices and actors are included in the actions that the ICRC carries out on the ground in Sudan?
- [19:34]
C
It's a good question. I think there's two or three entry points. Well, first of all, we're never going to be able to encompass all the, all the Sudanese voices, but at least making sure that we listen to them. I think, as I mentioned before, we work with the Sudanese Red Crescent. That already is a very useful entry point into getting a feel of what's happening. We work a lot with local communities, and this we're able to do because we have a physical presence all across the country. We have what we call an all Sudan approach where we ensure that we have structures. Right now we have, yes, we have our main office in Port Sudan. We're also commuting back and forth from Khartoum to. But we have four big structures in the north, south, east and west of the country, with teams there which are autonomous, which are made up of international staff, but also Sudanese colleagues who engage at that level. And this allows also to provide those channels to engage with these voices. It doesn't mean that we have the solutions. But I do agree with you that at the end of the day, if they are not part of the process, the question is, at what point do they include them? We're not going to have a sustainable action. And I do agree with you. We've been very good at looking at the metrics. Sudan has been an endless factory of statistics, whatever. But the problem is, what do we do with this? And I was having a conversation the other day with a colleague, and it reminded me of sometime back, the captain of the Irish rugby team, a guy called Brian o', Driscoll, he was doing a press conference and he said, you know, we have to distinguish between knowledge and wisdom. And it's that knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting a tomato in a fruit salad. So I think that we have the knowledge, but the wisdom is not quite there. And the wisdom will have to come from the Sudanese. So they'll decide if they do the fruit salad with a tomato or not. They decide what ingredients they use. But if we don't have them there, we're going to end up getting in the wrong ingredients, even if we have all the data.
- [21:29]
A
And speaking on that point of wisdom, I understand that there are several populations that are at risk, some of them most at risk in parts of Sudan that your organization cannot get to, and some other humanitarian agencies as well, are unable to get to. What would be your advice for those who are working in this space, even international actors? We see those just recent conversations now in Washington, D.C. with this whole lunch of a Sudan humanitarian fund. How would you advise actors who are coming into this space to reach out to those who are most at risk? What steps could be taken? What approach has ICRC taken? And what could folks do collectively to ensure that those who are most at risk in this crisis get the assistance and the help that they need?
- [22:18]
C
That's an excellent question. And it's something which is not only applicable to Sudan. I mean, this is something which we see throughout all the conflicts in terms of access, in terms of prioritization, and in terms who are you sometimes to decide, but how do you direct the assistance? What I would say in terms of access, and maybe just to clarify a couple of things, there have been issues of access. There still are issues of Access and access at different levels. It could be administrative, with permits, whatever. We're never going to do that. But what we have to remember also is that this is an active war. It's very fluid. And it's characterized amongst another number of things because you have a number of frontlines. We don't have one frontline. We have multiple frontlines which keep moving back and forth. And what we've seen is that quite often the most gruesome act or the highest level of humanitarian violations take place when these spontaneous move one side or another side of a location locality, and each time a locality changes hands. This is when we see the peak of humanitarian consequences. Call it El Fashir, call it Janina, call it Wadmadani, call it. Call it Khartoum. So here we have to go back to the whole issue of preventive work. There's no area in Sudan which is permanently non under access. I mean, to be honest, there's only very few areas where you cannot go in simply because the security guarantees are not. Also because the fighting is ongoing. But before or after, this is where you have to be able to sit down with those who are engaged in the fighting and remind them time and time again, okay, this is what you have to be responsible for. When you engage, we have to be able to contact you. For example, and there were very specific examples at the time of the fighting in Khartoum. Even if we were not physically able to be in certain areas, we were able to act as a neutral intermediary and work with both sides to assure the movement of people from one neighborhood to. To the other. We're also able on a couple of occasions to go into Khartoum and receive civilians who've been trapped in the middle of conflict. So the main issue, I guess I have to say, is that you need to invest in being there, in the knowledge, in the trust. Again, we go back to trust and being present before at one point an area closes and trying to gain trust and trying to network in a time of crisis, it's never going to work. You have to do the homework before. And this is quite. Also it's quite important. Sometimes when you talk about humanitarian assistance and funding, it all goes to activities which are more visible, where you can put a sticker, you know, you give up food, you give a cash, you provide medical assistance, which is necessary, which is great. But if you don't have the investment before in networking, in being there, in having that dialogue, and this is often a part which is forgotten, you won't be able to do the other elements. So the whole prevention work, the whole humanitarian dialogue is key to be able to have a humanitarian response. And quite often we try to have a humanitarian response when we haven't done the homework before in terms of having that dialogue. And this is where neutrality comes in as a key element in terms of saying, listen, we focus on this. We have this bilateral confidential dialogue. But we need to have your trust to be able to be able to go into this area or into this locality when the situation changes.
- [25:14]
A
To pick up on a point you made about this is an active, ongoing crisis, and the situation is really fluid. And over the last couple of weeks, we've seen increased reporting about food insecurity and malnutrition in different parts of the country. Can you put that into context for us? For there are people that might hearing about the situation in Sudan, the crisis in Sudan, but don't have a full picture of how dire the situation is. Could you put this into perspective for us?
- [25:44]
C
I mean, it's sometimes difficult to describe, but the issue of food insecurity in Sudan has been very much linked to the way in which some of the military actions are conducted. And if we look at the pattern of areas which have been more affected by food insecurity, the majority have been areas which have been under siege for a number of months. And when that siege really sort of closes in and nothing is allowed to come in or out, this is what we're seeing, spikes in food insecurities. Also, just to clarify, I mean, Sudan is a big country. So it's not that, you know, you go in Sudan and you'll see situations or images like you had in, you know, Biafra at the time, I guess, or Ethiopia. It's something which is much more targeted and localized. Again, it's as impactful. But the frustrating thing is that there is food around if you drive anywhere. I mean, the last time I was driving to Khartoum, it's difficult to drive because there's so many trucks, you know, carrying food around up and down. The same in Darfur. I landed in Darfur last year when we're supposed to be in the middle of a food crisis. And again, it was harvesting time. The issue about food insecurity is that it really is affecting very concrete locations at very concrete times. And it's closely linked to the way in which the hostilities are conducted, which makes it sometimes even more complicated to manage, because the solution could be there. But, I mean, this is tied to what is being seen as part of a military tactic which shouldn't be taking place. What I would say also is that sometimes there's peaks of information. We talk about food insecurity. When we talk about. There's always the headlines in Sudan and I think the headline in Sudan, what we keep missing, it's the daily individual struggles and the daily individual tragedies and the process whereby, you know, the social fabric of the country is being torn apart by people who are displaced, by women who are subject to sexual violence, by the families of the thousands and thousands of people who remain missing. We don't know if they're dead or they're alive, by those who had to leave the country. And this doesn't come into the headlines. And this is something which we try to advocate for. I mean, it's a tragedy which is on a daily basis. And the fact that you talk once every blue moon about a peak in food insecurity, a situation like El Fahshir, I think it's useful and it's necessary that the attention is paid there. But it cannot be done at the cost of the daily tragedies that we're seeing at a scale which is difficult to imagine.
- [27:56]
A
So help us move beyond these headlines. You know, there are always these conversations about funding needed for humanitarian assistance. Based on your experience on the ground, where do you see the real gaps, the real humanitarian needs on the ground in Sudan that funding should be targeted towards?
- [28:15]
C
I think it's so white that it's difficult to specify what the needs will be. I mean, certainly I think what we've seen in Sudan is, and this has been quite particular of this conflict. There's two things we need to take into account. First of all, and which are quite different from what I've seen in other contexts in the 20 years plus I've been working in humanitarian sector, first of all is that this is a conflict which is affecting the whole of the country. Most conflicts, you have regions which are stable, where you have a level of prosperity which can be kind of safe havens and people will intend to gravitate to them or not. But there seems there is some sort of division or equilibrium between the war affected areas or not Sudan, the whole of the country is affected. And if you look at the map, Sudan is not a small country. And this has been also the result of the introduction of new technology. So drones in Sudan, as has been the case in other conflicts, have been made a big difference. So geographically, if you're trying to look at what are the priorities, you have to go for the whole country. Secondly, there's a Large number of what we call kind of secondary humanitarian effects. Quite often we talk about the displaced or those who have been directly killed because of the conduct, hostilities, etc. Etc. And in Sudan, what's been happening is that there's been direct targeting. And I say direct targeting because this goes beyond any kind of collateral damage of essential infrastructure and essential services, which means that many people who are not directly affected by the fighting will be affected because they don't have access to minimum medical services, to drinking water, because the pipelines, again, we're going to food. It's not that food is not available, but the pipelines are actually broken in terms of communication networks. And this is where we're seeing the biggest impact, trying to restore this essential services. And we're not talking about development, we're not talking about, you know, building, you know, we're talking about really sort of bringing some of the services, whether it be hospitals, whether it be power plants, water treatment plants, back to working level already. That will have a kind of incremental effect on the humanitarian crisis. And this is where, you know, we need to balance the shorter term emergency interventions to the more medium term, which again, we're not even talking development, we're just taking bringing up to a minimum standard where at least you can assure that those who manage to survive the bullets are not going to die because of cholera, as we saw, for example, in Khartoum back in March. So this is one of the particularities of Sudan, which I haven't seen as much in other places in this time.
- [30:35]
A
Of where we see significant geopolitical shifts, we see a reduction in funding for humanitarian support programming, and we see a lot of institutions like yours on the ground really thinking about a humanitarian reset and trying to figure out where are the most pressing places to address or engage in. And on the one hand, we want to ensure that there isn't a total collapse of the humanitarian system, especially in a place like Sudan. And we want to stay optimistic in these conversations and in situations like this. What do you see as prospects for peace building in this situation in Sudan as a way to move forward from this impasse? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
- [31:23]
C
Yes, this is interesting because this is an area of reflection which has been nurtured in the ICC for the past two, three years. I mean, the ICC before was very adamant that we were not involved in peace processes because these were seen as, and they were essentially political processes where by definition we could not be directly involved or if we were involved in specific situations where we were facilitating processes as a neutral, intimidate role. The added value which we see in terms of peace and which there's a whole reflection ongoing right now is the fact that the way in which you fight a war today will have an effect on the peace which we'll have eventually. If we have a narrow definition of peace as just the absence of conflict, we know that this is going to repeat itself. The lack of fighting doesn't mean peace. And Sudan is a good example. If you look at Darfur, Darfur, you've had spikes in fighting 2003, 4005, 3000 than 2020, 2023. Because at the end of the day they aren't resolved. And if they aren't resolved in many ways is because of the way in which the fighting was conducted. So our stance is that if international humanitarian law is respected and we're talking about very basic standards, we're not talking about anything very sophisticated, it's just principles of distinction, principles of precaution, principles of, you know, if you have a detainee, you're responsible for the well being of that person already. Applying this, which at the end of the day boils down to keeping the dignity of the people, will translate eventually into more solid peace processes. So IHL is not just a framework to put the limits to what you can do in a war, but it's also the first step towards aspiring to have a peace which is durable and a peace which is much more than the absence of fighting. And this is what we've been working on. And in fact there's been an initiative which has been launched by President Rihanna Sporaric about a year ago on an international initiative on IHL which tries to bring these values back and tries to sort of build coalition and alliance around putting IHL back in the center of conflict in terms of how we approach conflicts. And when we see in certain areas not only that IHL is being disregarded, but in fact it's a further twist. Sometimes certain parties have been using IHL as an exception excuse to be able to gauge in certain actions this is something which want to bring back, and we know when to bring back to its origins and to really say that it's not just a normative framework, but it really is a moral framework which can help into feeding into this trust, into this dignity which can support processes. So whilst not being part of the process itself, we can ensure that the way in which they engage, whoever has to engage in this process, they come from a better place, so to speak.
- [33:59]
A
So before we round up, I Want to ask if there are any other final thoughts that you want to put on the table, things that you were not able to cover in my questioning here.
- [34:08]
C
I think that one point you were talking about the reset, maybe for the. I think the reset is something which has been more within the UN system. I think for us has been. We've been going through an internal reorganization which was back in 2023 wasn't quite a reset. I think it was a kind of a streamlining. But in terms of how we prioritize and our policy approach and our general engagement, we haven't had to reset that. I mean, for us it's quite the opposite. I think given the present circumstances and the present dynamics, the way in which we operate, I think is probably even more relevant now than it was maybe 20, 30 years ago. And linked to this. I would say that I think we need to start seeing humanitarian action as just a narrow provision of goods and services. I think the humanitarian sphere can offer the possibility of having conversations or having engagements which are depoliticized, which can help in terms of building trust. And here the typical examples are in terms of accessing detainees, detainee exchanges, being able to identify areas where people are buried. You know, sort of, it's, it's all these discussions and measures which can be taken delinked from any political process, but complementing certain political discussions. And I think that sometimes this link is not made. Sudan is a very good example where there has to be a space and there's a space for the policy, for the diplomatic engagements. But this space can be complemented by certain conversations which can take place within the framework of international humanitarian law and which can feed into the diplomatic conversations. And it's not always easy to find that connection. There has to be a very close liaison and understanding of the roles and responsibilities both of humanitarian organizations and those engaged in these political conversations. But I do see that in the case of Sudan, if we want to take a step forward, just talking at the political level is not going to be enough. And I think we need to have those confidence building measures. We need to have those signs that certain things are moving in the right direction, whether it be in access to detainees, whether it be in addressing the issue of the missing, supporting any kind of political action. And this obviously can be extrapolated to other situations. So yeah, just to dispel a bit maybe the image of humanitarian action as just giving out bags of rice. It is much more complicated than that. Humanitarian organizations have a privileged position in terms of their physical presence, their understanding of dynamics and the engagement with key stakeholders which makes them part and parcel of processes which are a bit more complex than just, as I say, giving out food parcels or rice, which is important. But if we limit ourselves to that and it's still key, we're going to be doing a disservice, I think, at the end for the affected populations.
- [36:46]
A
Well, thank you so much, Daniel. I want to ask you a final question here for everyone that comes onto the Into Africa podcast. This is not related to Sudan, but we always ask our guests to recommend or let us know which African musician or a book written by an African author that you would recommend to our Into Africa audience. Probably something you listen to or a book you've read that helps you as you think and you reflect on your work.
- [37:14]
C
Interesting question. I got more into music because I'm more of a musical person than a reading person. But lately I've been rediscovering. I was in Ethiopia for quite some time back in the day and I remember the time I bought quite a bit of Ethio Jazz. It wasn't a specific musician. There was a number of recordings which were done. There's this mythical place in Addis near Mescal Square. I always forget the name of the place. I can see it. It's the basement of a hotel or back in the day there were amazing recordings of, you know, there was this at the time of the really the explosion of Ethiopian culture. It was a bit underground at the beginning, but then afterwards and I would go to those recordings of Ethio jazz, you get into a bit of a trance. And I think sometimes when you're sitting in Port Sudan just listening to Ethio jazz, looking at the sea at the distance, that combination is quite reassuring. I recommend people to rediscover Itheo Jazz because it can take you to two places many other sort of musical styles cannot get you to.
- [38:05]
A
Oh, well, you are our second guest that has recommended Ethio Jazz. So I need to kind of build up my own music gallery too as well. I get to rediscover Ethio jazz.
- [38:16]
C
You have to be into the mood and if you're able to eat a bit of injera meanwhile and having a good interview, coffee, that also helps. There's a whole combination. There's a holy, the whole trinity. If you're jazz, Ethiopian coffee in Jeddah doesn't get any better.
- [38:28]
A
Thank you so much, Daniel, for joining us today.
- [38:31]
C
Thank you very much.
- [38:32]
A
Thank you. Thanks for listening to Into Africa. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe Wherever you listen to your podcast, you can find more analysis from the Africa Program of on our website CSIS.org or find us on social media. Search for SISAfrica on X, LinkedIn and Instagram.