D (3:34)

Thank you.

C (3:36)

So, Chevathai, I would like to start this conversation, I guess, with two questions is how do you engage with the movement as a diaspora Kenyan? And the second is with your academic research, can you explain to us a bit more about what counter publics are and the feminist angle which you take in this research?

D (3:57)

Effy. Okay, thank you so much. So I'd say similar to you, I engage with it through social media because there's no way that I can physically be at the protest. And so whenever there's huge protests going on, I make it my job to log on and basically do what people say is injecting. So retweeting every single tweet I see, especially those that are documenting the protests. Those are highlighting who has been kidnapped, the fact that they're missing, or any efforts to do with crowdfunding. And I'd say yes, I also have this feeling of like missing out because I'd love to be there physically, but it's also very scary to watch all of these things through the screen and especially in such an isolated way. I mean, I'm just on my screen whereas my family and friends who are at home, when I talk to them, they state how in as much as they were afraid to be there, facing the police or just like perhaps interacting with goons, there was a sense of solidarity. You know, you're many of you, but when you're on your screen alone, you're getting all of this information. It's very heartbreaking, the scenes that you're seeing. And then I don't live close to many Kenyans, so it's. I can't really talk to people about this face to face. So it's like I'm here retweeting, but I still have to go on with my life. I still have to go to work. I had when I was a student. I have to submit this assignment and basically pretend like there's nothing going on back home. And your second question to do with counterpublics? Counterpublics simply, it's when marginalized groups decide to come up with a different public or narrative that is away from the dominant culture. So for example, with Ruto must go just Kenyans in general. It started off as youth were using social media to just talk about their grievances since they weren't being listened to when they talk to politicians. For me, it's kind of crazy that the Ruto Must Go movement can classify as a counterpublic considering it's not really marginalized groups alone. I mean, in the sense that like yes, Kenyans in general are suffering at the hands of the government because of the economic situation and the political situation, but it's majority of Kenyans are contributing to this conversation. So to what extent is this a counter public if it's actually the dominant group that's talking about it? But unfortunately the dominant group in quotes, I'm talking about it in numbers, isn't really the group that holds the power, it's the political elite that hold the power. So that's why it still qualifies as a counterpublic.

C (6:22)

Yeah, no, you're so right. Also, when you're thinking of marginalized groups, the youth, specifically the youth are the majority in Kenya. They make up more than 70% of Kenyans. Thinking of them as, I mean, minority power holders. It's really interesting. And seeing how this movement aims to shift that power and get governments to be accountable to the people who they say they are supposed to serve, I find very inspirational. And I'm motivated by the lack of giving up that the youth have and the energy which, as you say, they inject into the movement. The first theme which I'd like to discuss about the protest is the theme of justice. This year, as the June 25 anniversary was approaching, we saw on social media a lot of people mobilizing, wanting to get justice for the more than 60 people who were killed in last year's Protest. And on June 8, Alberto Zhuang, who was a teacher and a blogger, was arrested in his home in Western Kenya, transported to Nairobi and he was found dead in police custody. And this sparked up a wave of protests right before the June 25 protest. Eye opening, first of all, the impunity with which police engage in and operate in, but also the way this past year the kidnapping, harassment, government critics, specifically on social media, have been targeted. And a lot of times without any, no justice comes to these victims. I think the question which I have is how has social media and digital activism helped push these demands for justice forward? And what has driven the growth of organizing on social media specifically?

D (8:27)

So I'd say the thing with social media being an avenue for organizing was quite predictable considering Kenyans are very online to the point where we have this moniker, Kenyans on Twitter, because of how engaged we are with digital activism. I mean, we ran off our former president, Uhuru Kenyatta off Twitter, now known X, because people would insult him online. And he was like, I literally can't be on Twitter anymore. So Kenyans are not new to sharing their grievances online. I mean, furthermore, we have an Internet penetration rate of 40.8% and a smartphone penetration of 56.1 million mobile data subscribers. So this shows that there are lots of people online. And a recent study or data that was put out In January of 2024, there were 22.7 million Internet users in Kenya. So this shows that at least slightly less than half of the population is online and engaging, but it also highlights that another half of the population is not online and engaging. So in as much as we're using social media, it can't end there, but it's been a great avenue, especially in the last few years. We've seen, not just in Kenya, but even here in the United States, the Black Lives Matter movement, the use of infographics to basically disseminate information on meeting points for protests, protest etiquette numbers to call if you're in danger, and also ways of organizing crowdfunding online, which is something that we have seen occur in Kenya. Last year, we actually managed to raise 20 million shillings in a matter of two weeks to basically pay for the bills of victims of police brutality, those who were hospitalized, as well as the funeral bills of those who were killed. So I'd say with social media, we've been online, we've been engaging, we've been active. So it was just another avenue for Kenyans to talk online. But I think what's interesting about this protest, specifically Ruto Moscow, is for the first time in recent Kenyan history, at least when we're looking at our democratic history, Kenyans have organized along class lines. So it's basically Kenyans against the political class. Whereas in Kenya's history, our politics has been highly ethnicized. Most people have aligned themselves according to their ethnic group or the region they're from in the country. But because of the economic situation, because of how this government has decided to deal with just social reforms, economic reforms, people are realizing that it's basically us against the elite because it doesn't matter your ethnic group. It also doesn't matter if your class anymore, because the middle class are now being affected. Often the middle class wouldn't really engage with these protests to do with cost of living, because they were cushioned. But under the Ruto administration, in the last two years, the middle class is Feeling it.

C (11:07)

So yeah, I think what I'd add to that, the crowdfunding is also like a huge thing which me as a diaspora, I participate in because it's something which is it's very simple to send money back home thanks to mobile money and M? Pesa and you know, like the technology which we have, it's a really easy way to engage and feel like you are part of helping make a change in our country. And another huge thing which I've seen on Instagram is civic education. And in terms of like those infographics, like people make the most beautiful graphics you've ever seen, which can educate you both about like history as well as current politics and policies which are going through the government. And for me, as a Kenyan in Diaspora, Diaspora in Kenyan, I feel like I can be part of the movement even though I am so far away from home. The next theme which I would like to talk about is accountability. The protests in 2024, in June 2024 came after another huge round of protests in January 2024, which were the End Femicide Kenya protest, which was the largest protest against gender based violence in the country and saw more than 10,000 people on the streets marching against Femicide Chemitay. Please can you share a bit more about women's roles as leaders and activists in these protests, why goons were charged with targeting women in the protest and the significance of the end femicide KE protests to the current protest movements that we are seeing right now.

D (12:50)

Definitely. So I'd say women's role in the Ruto Must Go movement is very intersectional and it's because of the End Femicide KE protest, which is just one of the most recent digital feminist movements in Kenya. The digital feminist movement in Kenya really took off in 2013 with the justice for Liz movement. And since then we've seen many other movements. We've seen total shutdown ke which place in 2019. And so now in January of 2024, we had the end femicide ke protest, the first one on the 27th of January. And as you stated, more than 10,000 people took part in it from 10 different counties all over the country. And this was in response to the brutal femicides of 16 women in the first four weeks of the year. We see that the End Femicide KE movement actually created the framework that the Ruto Must Go movement uses in terms of digital activism, in terms of political education and dissemination. But the thing is, the sexism and misogyny that is quite prevalent in the Ruto Must Go movement has stopped the two movements from converging, considering they're both demanding for justice and accountability from the government. But I think what's really interesting about the End Femicide KE protest, we're not just pointing fingers at the government, we're also looking within our community because based off of the statistics in Kenya as it relates to femicide, 70% of femicide cases, the perpetrator is usually a loved one, an intimate partner, a relative, a friend, somebody that the victim knew. I can't even say survivor at this point, because these women were murdered. It shows that this is really personal. It's not just state sanctioned violence, but it's intimate partner violence. It's familial violence. So it highlights the patriarchy that exists within Kenyan society. And we see this in the Ruto Must Go movement. I must highlight that some of the women that are pushing the mantle within the End Femicide KE movement, which is similarly leaderless because it's so personal to so many women and femmes in Kenya. We have Njeri Megwe, who is the head of Usikimie, a feminist organization in Kenya that deals with sexual and gender based violence. And one of the goals that they are pushing for in the end Femicide K movement is basically better recording of femicide cases and also the criminalization of femicide, because femicide cases are just dealt with as murder. So when it came to the one year anniversary of the June 25 protest, there were reports of 14 women who were actually raped, many of them gang raped. And this statistic was shared by Usikimie, the organization that I mentioned before, because many of these victims were actually referred to Usikimie. So we see this case of state sanctioned rape because a lot of these goons are allegedly hired by the state to throw off protesters to bring violence into the protests for them to engage in looting and basically have the protesters be scapegoated. Because the protests are usually very peaceful until the police and until the goons show up. And what's really interesting is the goons will show up wielding weapons, the police will be watching them. Many times there's been videos of the police accompanying them and nothing happens. So I'd say it's a really troubling time in general because we're seeing the state sanctioned goons with the police supporting them. The state is supporting them very openly and nothing is happening but the extent of state sanctioned rape. And I think it highlights how the intersectionality of being a woman in Kenya or Just a woman, woman in general who's engaging with politics, how sexual violence, rape as a tool of war, rape as a tool of just intimidation is something that is always going to be weaponized against women. And it's very heartbreaking because while women can simultaneously attend end femicide protests, they will also attend Rutomas Gomu protests. But we won't see the same occur when it comes to non women or femmes attending the end femicide KE process. So I hope that over time Kenyans will realize that all of this oppression that we're facing, it's connected. And I just hope that women can continue to be courageous and go out into the streets. There's been, after those rapes were recorded, I mean, now Osikimi has gained a lot of attraction online. Many Kenyans know who they are, men and women alike. And people were discussing about how the next time we have protests, how we need to have a body system. And also men are putting themselves at least are availing themselves to be a part of these groups. So then they can perhaps fight all these goons. But I don't know how we can go about that when it's about 30 goons wielding machetes against a group of people who are unarmed. I think we just have to be strategic. And this just highlights how community is important. Acknowledging that we are all Kenyan regardless of class, race, ethnicity, gender identity, sexual orientation. We're all facing this state sanctioned violence. As I was saying, we see that the movements haven't converged in terms of nfemicide. Kei Ruto must go. And this is, this is because sexism exists within Ruto Moscow in as much as we're converging online and we have, everybody has access to their phones, they can talk about these issues that they're facing. That doesn't mean that sexism or any other type of violence is going to be left offline. It also ends up being online. We see a lot of these women like Njeri and also Hanifa Adan, who's been one of the most vocal protesters within the Ruto Moscow movement, is actually the one who was in charge of the crowdfunding efforts last year that raised 20 million shillings. She faced. This is a lot of sexism online, a lot of verbal harassment, sexual harassment. Whenever Njeri goes online to talk about a case of sexual or gender based violence, we have men in the comments trivializing it. These are cases that also involve children. These are cases that involve young men, older men, women. It involves everybody. But we just see that this trivialization of sexual violence, this trivialization of women engaging in politics or within the public sphere is reflective of the sexism within Kenyan society.

C (18:58)

Your point on the intersectionality of the Nfemicide KE protest and the Rutomasko protest is something which I think about a lot and about how, as Kenyans, we are demanding revolution, we are demanding a change. But as much as the change needs to happen at the top, it also needs to start at the bottom. And you shouldn't demand change of others that you're not doing yourself, you know, like that. It's not just governmental change that we're asking for. We're asking for societal change. Which is why I think it's important to highlight the feminist movements which are happening in line that are driving forward these other movements that are happening. The next thing which I'd like to talk about is Joy. When you see the headlines, which are very true, a lot of traumatic and horrific things are happening on the streets and in the homes of people. But something else which gives me a lot of hope and inspiration is whenever I see clips from the protests, you'll hear music. You will see people dancing. There's been a lot of music which has come out as a result of the protests. There's Angukanaya, which is, like, now, it plays in every single Kenyan function which I'm at. No matter where I am, you will hear it. I also think of even just Ruto Must Go chants. I went to a Bien concert. Bien is a Kenyan singer, musician who was touring the US and during his concert, it was mostly Kenyans in the audience. We started to chant Rito Must Go. And I feel like this protest movement has. It's moved beyond the streets and into people's lives and art and forms of expression. And I wanted to find out what position you think Joy has in protest movements.

D (20:53)

That's a lovely question. And I like how you highlighted music because we see it used all over the protests. And as you mentioned before, I did have a radio show where I talk about the intersection of music, politics and social life. And music is a form of resistance. I mean, when every day you're waking up and there's a new scandal that's being exposed in terms of the government misappropriating funds, it can be really disheartening. And it can also take away a lot of the momentum and a lot of. Of the morale that you might have in hope of changing Kenya because you realize how deep seated the issue is. Like, to be honest, the Ruto administration, yes, has made the situation in Kenya worse. But this has been something that's been compounded on by previous administrations. It's just his administration is the most aggressive with it, and they're also the ones who really don't care. And the way they're talking to Kenyans when we complain, it's quite alarming. They talk to us like we're children, yet we're the ones who voted them in. Well, I didn't vote for them. Sorry. But it's just interesting to see how people are using music at the protest. Also memes. I remember there's this meme of one of the protesters smoking tear gas, or at least he was pretending.

C (22:07)

Crazy.

D (22:08)

That was crazy. The thing is, he wasn't actually smoking the tear gas. It was an empty canister, and he had a cigarette. But it did look like he was smoking the tear gas. And there were people who were, like, hopping onto nganyas. So nganyas are like buses, public transport, but they usually have lots of graffiti on them. It's very artistic, and it's specific to Kenya's matatu culture. So people were just, like, bouncing on the nganyas as the music was playing, bouncing on the beat in front of the police. A lot of people were chanting or, like, cheering whenever they were hit with the water cannons and coming back for more. So it's just. It's interesting to see how people are using humor as well as also using humor to make fun of our president, William Ruto. There's this song that's called Kasongoye Ye, and it's basically about this woman who's pleading to her husband to actually just be good to her and maybe not drag her through the mud. So Kenyans have taken on this song, and we're saying, like, kasongo, can you please just not drag us through the mud? There's also been memes that have been put out by specifically cartoons by this cartoonist known as Kibet Bull. Basically, he's drawn the outline of the president's head, which I must say, to many people, it might be seen as funny shaped. And so lots of people have used that as their profile pictures, have also used it. Just whenever the government posts something, they'll put it on Twitter. They'll put underneath the government's comments. And so we're seeing many ways of Kenyans finding dignity and honor by subverting the violence and using humor through that to be subversive. There's also the song reject your Bill by Sabi Wu, who's this Kenyan musician and also my friend. He's a really good rapper. So it's great to see that. In as much as we. We're feeling very tired, we're using music, we're using art, we're using humor, we're using poetry to build up the morale. But I will note that this year at the protests, the extent of music wasn't the same because of the violence of the government. Also. The government, the police, they were a lot more prepared this year for the anniversary protests of June 25th. So they blocked off a lot of the major roads. People weren't able to congregate in the central business district as they did last year. Police were also going into residential neighborhoods in the middle of the day and shooting live bullets. So it's like the vibe this year or the mood this year was also very different and a lot more grim than it was last year, I must say.

C (24:35)

I completely agree. I think that the humor, the art is a show of resilience. And I like the word she used, like, dignity. And something else which I thought about was all the nicknames that he has. So on top of Kasongo, I mean, my favorite is El Chapo. Have you seen it?

D (24:55)

Yes, I've seen those.

C (24:56)

I'd say no, it's. There's something.

D (24:59)

Do you want to explain it?

C (25:00)

The El Chapel meal, I think that's a. It's like a long story, but. So in Kenya, we eat chapati, which is a flatbread, and Ruto promised that he would bring a machine which will be able to feed school children and produce 1 million chapatis a day. The moniker for chapati is chapo, and people call him El Chapo, Like El Chapo, the drug lord. El Chapo, because he's going to, like, fund all of these chapatis. And I find that extremely hilarious, Bringing some levity into him, first of all, cutting funding for education, yet speaking about these millions of chaputis chapattis that he's going to be giving to the school children. Exactly. So my last question is, what is the way forward? How do you see the protest evolving? And what are some steps the government can now take to answer the demands of the youth and just Kenyans in general?

D (26:09)

I think this is a very interesting question because it suggests that the government is open to adjusting. And I'd say we've given them a year since the last protest, and we've seen that they've just responded with a lot more brutality. And I think for a lot of Kenyans, we are wondering, okay, are they actually interested in good governance? Because Something that the president has been echoing a lot in his public appearances is I would like the Gen Z to come and talk to me and tell me what the problem is. Well, Gen Z have been talking for the last year. Not just talking, but we've been going to the streets and it's also. So the movement has extended outside of Gen Z. Kenyans have been telling you what is wrong and they've not been listening. So I really don't know because we're dealing with a government that seems to lack a conscience. A government that gaslights us when there's evidence of police shooting Kenyans. A government that will completely ignore the brutalities that they're committing. The other day our president and the interior Cabinet secretary Kipchumba Murkomen stated that the police should not shoot to kill, but shoot to maim. Government that we're dealing with surely. So I would say in terms of the government, all they have to do is listen really. They're being told what they need to do. But I do understand there is an $80 billion debt that they have to pay off. That is our national debt as it stands right now, but at the same time. So of course there has to be increased taxation to pay that debt but there's no service delivery to reflect that. So I think that's another reason why Kenyans have been so angry. If you're going to be taking about almost half of our money, money, half of our income, then we need to be seeing service delivery. So I think I'm going to answer it in the sense of over the last year, how have Kenyans grown? Maybe what can Kenyans continue to do to hold their government accountable? So in terms of coming together as a constituent, I'd say Kenyans have been very successful over the last year in terms of de ethnicizing our politics and realizing that a lot of this is class based. We need to continue to put pressure on the government because that's the only way that a democracy can actually flourish. We have to be active participants. It can't just end at voting. We must be able to keep these people accountable. And unfortunately we have to keep checking what bills are they passing, where's the money going and that's what it means to be an active citizen. Another thing that I've noticed Kenyans discussing is how we can't just keep congregating within the cbd. They know our tactics now. So we need to find new ways of organizing. We need to build community, we need to build long lasting networks. You need going to volunteer at These local organizations such as Usikimye, the Madare Justice Institute, it's finding ways that you can perhaps give your labor, maybe resources, be it monetary, your skills, and contribute to the movement. Another thing is we must stand together and support the victims of state violence. And we've been doing a good job at that in terms of raising money for them, in terms of showing up for their families. Mama Rex, the mother of Rex Masai, has received a lot of support, not just financially, but people still visit those families just to see how they're doing because they've lost children. So it's realizing that we actually all have to just come together as Kenyans if we want to see change in our government. If Ruto ends up going come 2027, we still have to be active participants in our democracy. And so just building a foundation for that and getting rid of civic apathy. I see right now people are already talking about registering for the next elections. I'm getting ready to do that. So getting your voters cards read, understanding that it doesn't end at the ballot. Another thing is making the movement feminist. It has to be intersectional because we can't just be here fighting on the streets. Ruto must go. Ruto must go. But there's the existence of misogyny which creates an environment for gender based violence such as femicide rapes. If we're going to be liberating and if we're people and we're going to be dreaming of a better Kenya, it must be a better Kenya for everyone. Not just men and not just men with certain access to resources and power. A Kenya that works for everyone, not just the lucky or the well connected.

C (30:23)

Thank you. Very well said, Chai. The previous election I did not register to vote because I felt very powerless. And you know what will be will be. It's okay. The government is not going to service and that's fine. But I think something amazing which these protest movements have done is they have shown the youth that we actually have the power, that this is our government and they are supposed to serve us. So. So I love how we are owning our future. Not holding back, not taking a step back when they come with their bullets and when they come with their harassment. I find it to be a very inspirational time. I pray for all the families that have lost people and also everyone who's been injured during these protests. But I hope to see great change in Kenya. Yeah.

D (31:15)

Thank you so much, Hasai. I really enjoyed this interview and I hope that by the time we go back to Kenya it's like that's a serious place because right now. Hey.

C (31:24)

Yes, very true.

A (31:26)

Thanks for tuning in. This podcast is produced by Gina Kim and our music is by Wonder Child. If you have any suggestions for future topics, you can find me on X and Instagram at at Catherine Zuki Underscore.