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You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey everybody and welcome back to the into the Dark podcast. I'm your host, Peyton Moreland. So grateful you are here listening or watching today's episode. Getting straight into my 10 seconds. I'm hot. So hot. I'm so hot. My feet are hot. My hands are hot. It's hot in my house. It's hot outside. I wish could plant some trees. I really could use some trees right now. But other than that, I'm doing pretty good. I'm doing pretty good. I don't know, don't look on YouTube right now because my face is a whole whack. But been doing pretty good. Been working at the bagel shop, you know, just the US been aiding my burn. Honestly, nothing much change. I'm gonna try to grind out some episodes this week. Hopefully you know, feeling a little better. But yeah, I think that's all I have for my 10 seconds. I love you guys. I hope you're doing amazing as well and I kind of want to just jump straight into this week's episode. A quick trigger Warning. This episode includes discussions of domestic abuse, so please listen with care. Now, before I dive into today's episode, I think it's worth talking about the idea of the perfect crime. The concept that a murderer could kill someone, destroy all of the evidence, create an alibi, and then get away with it. Many true crime stories seem like they kind of fit this profile. They go cold because the police can't find a smoking gun or because it's impossible to narrow down the list of suspects. However, I would argue that even when they're unsolved, there is no such thing as a perfect crime. Because there is always a clue the killer left behind, a witness they didn't account for, a mistake they made. And even if it takes years or decades to solve a murder, there's always evidence that's just waiting to be discovered. Any mystery can be solved. We just don't always have the tools to find the answers right away. So today I am covering the story of a murder that seemed like the perfect crime, at least at first. This is the case of Arlene Frazier. Now, Arlene was from a town in Scotland called New Elgin. And all throughout her childhood, she was known for being outgoing, friendly, and popular. But then she began dating a man named Nat Frazier. And as soon as they got together, Arlene's personality changed. She stopped going out with her friends or meeting new people. She became quiet, withdrawn, very socially isolated. And there was one reason for that. None of her friends realized it at the time, but almost from day one, Nat had been violent. He was controlling and possessive. And when Arlene didn't do what he wanted, he hurt her. So on their wedding day in 1987, okay, 22 year old Arlene had a black eye, but she didn't want to tell anyone what had happened. She didn't want them to judge her or her groom. So she came up with a cover story about how she'd accidentally hurt herself. She joked about how she was just clumsy and everyone laughed along with her because most of her friends and family just didn't believe Nat, her fiance, husband to be, could ever be dangerous. He had done such a good job of seeming friendly and charming in public, it was hard for anyone to imagine that he could be an abuser behind closed doors. But arlene, obviously, at 20 years old, had no choice but to accept that reality. Because once she was married, the violence only got worse. Nat continued to control Arlene, abuse her, keep her isolated. And just a year after their wedding day, Arlene had a son, a boy named Jamie. Five years later, her daughter Natalie was born. And this just made it harder for Arlene to even think about leaving. She loved her two children. She didn't want to lose them. If Nat got full custody. Plus she didn't know how she would even support herself if they got a divorce. Arlene had been a stay at home mom and Nat worked as a fruit and vegetable seller. So she didn't really have any money of her own. And to make matters worse, Nat lied to Arlene to make her feel more powerless. He told her, well, the mortgage on our house is huge. It's going to take years to pay. Meaning if Arlene left Nat, she wouldn't be able to afford to live in her own home. But the truth was is that Nat had actually paid the house off years earlier. He didn't owe anything on their mortgage. There was nothing stopping Arlene from getting the house in a divorce and staying in it. But she didn't know that. And in spite of Nat's lies, Arlene actually finally decided she'd had enough. In 1990, she was 25 years old. She packed her bags, she moved out and went to a women's shelter. She except as soon as she got there, she began having second thoughts. Very normal. Nat had spent years destroying Arlene's confidence. He had made her feel like she would never do any better than him, that no man would ever treat her well. She was too weak to build a good life on her own. Now for the record, none of these things were true. But Arlene slowly believed them. So after a short time when she escaped and got away, she goes back to Nat. She just thinks it's the best choice. Except obviously her life didn't get any better. And neither did the way he treated her. The violence continued and two years later, in 1992, now 27 year old Arlene hits another breaking point. She leaves for a second time checks into the same women's shelter. A team of social workers tried to support her, help her understand, you're making the right choice. But unfortunately, Arlene's self confidence was really low. It was difficult for her to even imagine a life where Nat wasn't controlling her, giving her rules to follow, demanding all of her attention. As bad as their marriage was, it was scary for Arlene to try something different. And on top of that, she didn't really have a strong social network. A lot of her friends still didn't believe that Nat was violent or abusive. After all, he played in a local band, he had a great sense of humor. Everyone enjoyed being around him, everyone seemed to like him. And Arlene didn't feel like she could just tell everyone, hey, he's actually horrible. She was afraid no one would believe her. So she felt Very alone, very vulnerable at this time. And so, once again, she leaves the shelter and goes back to Nat. Now, six more years go by after this, and everything in their relationship took an even darker turn in mid or late March of 1998. It was around this time that Arlene and Nat get into an argument. And Nat responded the way he always did when he got angry. He hurt Arlene. Except he didn't just hit her this time. He choked her until she passed out. And Arlene must have been terrified as she began to lose consciousness. She may have wondered if she would ever wake up, if she was dying, if he was going to kill her. But luckily, she did regain consciousness later. And this was when Arlene realized there's just. It's over. There's no room for forgiveness or reconciliation. She knew if she stayed with Nat, he would take it too far one day and he would most likely murder her. So after this specific set of events, she calls the police to report what happened. And thanks to the bruises and injuries on her neck, they believed her. And they charged Nat with attempted murder. He was arrested. He managed to get out on bail, and the terms of his release said he had to stay away from his wife, Arlene. And so this meant he couldn't live in the same house as her or see her. So he found a friend with a spare bedroom, and he ends up moving in with them. Now, as for Arlene, despite the fact he'd been arrested, she did not believe Nat was going to stay away long term. In fact, she kept seeing signs that he was already stalking her. When she would go out to run errands, she kept running into him. And that made it seem like it was all a coincidence, that he wasn't doing anything wrong. But Arlene obviously doesn't believe him. Plus, one day, her car caught on fire while it was parked in the driveway. A mechanic said it was an electrical issue, probably a freak accident. But Arlene was like, no, he set my car on fire. She realized now that the safest thing to do was to leave. So she contacted a divorce lawyer, scheduled a meeting. But Arlene didn't tell Nat that she was planning to divorce him. She knew if he realized that she was actually ending the marriage, he would only become more possessive and controlling. So for her own safety, it was best to pretend that she, you know, still somewhat loved him. So. So she tried to just act normal, do her best. She didn't tell any of her friends that she was filing for divorce. And as much as possible, she just stuck to her usual schedule that way, if he was watching her, or if one of their mutual friends talked to Nat, he wouldn't suspect anything was going on. For example, Arlene's first consult with the lawyer was supposed to be on Tuesday, April 28, 1998. That morning she woke up, she did a load of laundry. Her neighbors saw her hanging it on the clothesline to dry around 8am and about an hour later, when it was time for the kids to go to school, Arlene walked out the front door with them. She waved goodbye and she was still wearing a dressing gown, which is basically a bathrobe. You wear it over your pajamas, but you obviously wouldn't leave the house dressed like that. So her outfit gives the impression to the outside world that she has no plans to go out. Now, sure enough, once her kids were on their way, Arlene goes back inside. Now, her 10 year old son Jamie was actually supposed to have a field trip during the school day. That day at 9:41, Arlene called the school to double check his schedule. She wanted to know what time the field trip would end, whether he would be sent home early as soon as it was over or if he would like go back to class and spend the rest of the day at school. Now unfortunately, the person she spoke to didn't know the answer. They said they'd find out and let Arlene know later that day. Sure enough, just 10 minutes later, the school calls back. But Arlene doesn't answer. And at 11am she was supposed to meet with a friend for brunch. Except she doesn't show up for that either, which was really unlike her. Arlene was usually very on top of her schedule. She didn't flake out on appointments. Her friend was actually so worried she goes to Arlene's home to check whether she's hurt or sick or if something had happened. This was when she found the front door unlocked and the now 33 year old Arlene wasn't home. If you have listened to any of my podcasts for a while, you know my love for Quince. 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Quint's also offers elevated essentials for your home, from bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and furniture make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.comdark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quince Q-U-I-N-C-E.comdark don't forget/dark for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comdark at DSW, we ask the important questions like what? What shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate vacay, the right shoes can make or break an rsvp. So own the moment. You've got big plans, and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price, of course. Get ready to get ready with Designer Shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today and let us surprise you. Her friend wasn't the only person to notice Arlene's absence. She also never showed up to her meeting with her lawyer. And when her kids did get home from school that afternoon, the house was empty. This had never happened before. They had no idea what to do. I mean, think about Arlene's situation. It would have been very dangerous for her to ever do anything like that. Wasn't according to plan. So the kids go to the neighbor's house. They're like, hey, our mom's not home. But before they leave the home, they the her son actually writes a letter, a little note, and leaves it at the house, just saying, where are you? Just in case Arlene comes home. So when the kids got to the neighbors, the neighbor actually calls the police because even they know that this is just not normal. And in no time at all, officers were walking through Arlene's home and looking for clues. Except to all appearances, everything was where it was supposed to be. There were no signs of violence or forced entry. There was no blood. There was nothing missing besides Arlene, nothing was knocked over, out of place. The laundry she had been seen hanging up that morning was still on the clothesline. It was Dry. Nobody brought it inside. The vacuum was still plugged in. It looked like Arlene had just kind of been about to do her chores for the day, maybe, and then vanished into thin air. Now, this made it impossible to say if she had been kidnapped or if she had run away or if she had just run some errands and was literally out in town. And if somebody had hurt her, they had apparently committed the perfect crime because there wasn't any evidence left behind. Now, unfortunately, Arlene didn't have security cameras. Neither did her Neighbors. It was 1998, so it was impossible for the police to know when she had left or if she'd gone with anyone. All they could say for sure was she was probably missing around 9:40 or 9:50am because that was the window between when she called the school and when they called back and she didn't answer. It was also possible she had an innocent reason for not picking up the phone. She could have been in the bathroom when it rang. Doesn't necessarily mean that's when she disappeared. But she didn't answer by 11. But it was clear she'd definitely gone missing by 11, when she missed her brunch that she had with her friend. And so the police come up with two major theories about what they believe happened to her. Both of them had to do with her husband. Now, again, the officers knew about his history of abuse because he was out on bail. They'd seen the reports. They knew about the choking incident. And Arlene's lawyer had reached out to admit. Hey, she hired me. She didn't show up to our meeting, but she's planning to get a divorce. So one theory was that maybe Arlene had run away from Nat. She may have realized she just wasn't safe at home. She may have just taken off in the middle of the day without leaving a clue behind because she didn't want him to find her. Problem was that everyone who knew Arlene was like this would have. This would be extremely out of character for her. She loved her kids. She would never have abandoned them. And if she was trying to run away, she probably still would have met with that lawyer. It didn't make sense for her to disappear without even filing for divorce. Plus, when Arlene went missing, she left several personal items behind. These included her glasses, her contact lenses, prescription medications, all of which she needed. She couldn't have gotten far without these things. So this obviously leads police to their second theory. That not had learned Arlene was going to divorce him and he had killed her before she could go through with it. This feels most obvious, but unfortunately there was no physical evidence connecting that to Arlene's disappearance. Plus, he had a rock solid alibi that day. He was at work delivering fruits and vegetables for his business. At 7am he showed up in his office, meaning he was there a full hour before Arlene even took her laundry out that day. And all day for the rest of the day he was visiting customers who were pretty much able to corroborate his story. Several times he stopped and made calls at payphones. The phone companies had records of these conversations. It was clear Nat had been on the line. Plus there was security camera footage showing him driving around, packing, carrying boxes. There was simply no way he could have hurt Arlene. Police are like, this is pretty solid. The timeline just doesn't allow it. But police also think there might be more to this story, especially because of how suspicious Nat acted after Arlene's disappearance. Her family complained that he kept making off color jokes about her and treating the situation like it was just kind of funny. He also continued booking gigs with his band. He didn't even care she was missing. Everyone else is sitting by the phone, checking in with police, desperately waiting for some kind of information or answers. And Nat is going out with his friends, having a fun time, acting like he doesn't even care. One time he even told his father in law that his kids would quote, soon just forget about their mother. Keep in mind, the rest of the family was hoping Arlene would come home. But Nat was like, I'm, I'm happy with never seeing her ever again. And then something very strange happened on or around May 7, although it's hard to nail down an exact date from my sources. But that day a bunch of Arlene's family members had a get together at her house. She'd been missing for about nine days at this point. But as much as possible, her family wanted Arlene's kids to feel safe, have a stable life. So that meant continuing to have get togethers, acting just as normal as possible. Well, during this gathering, one of her relatives actually goes to use the bathroom. And while she was in there, she saw a jewelry stand with a bunch of rings on it, including Arlene's engagement ring and wedding ring. Now this relative knew that Arlene never really took these off. So she finished washing her hands, left the bedroom and asked, hey, did anyone see that her rings were in there? Now Nat said he thought Arlene had left the rings behind when she disappeared because she was running away from the marriage. So he's like she ran away, put the rings in the bathroom to send a message that it was really over. Except the rest of her relatives don't buy this. They knew a bunch of people had been in and out of Arlene's house since her disappearance, that crime scene investigators had been looking for clues, and relatives had been watching Arlene's kids and taking care of them. Everyone except Nat agreed. We have not seen these rings for the past nine days. Someone recently put them there before this family gathering. Whoever had done this had to have access to Arlene to get these rings. They had to have had keys to the house. And it didn't make sense that Arlene would have left Nat and then come back to put her rings in the bathroom and then left again. So everyone is like, nat's lying. He put those rings there, and that probably means that he took them off our lane at some point. But the rings obviously aren't a smoking gun. They weren't solid enough evidence for police to arrest him at this point. They're just looking for him to slip up, maybe implicate himself in a more concrete way. So as the days ticked by and Arlene was still missing, some officers asked Nat if he would be willing to, you know, speak at a press conference. This is very normal. They wanted him to go in front of cameras and reporters and talk about how he felt about Arlene and her disappearance. Obviously, the officers would be watching to see if he did or said anything suspicious. So in May, this is about five weeks after Arlene disappeared. That's exactly what he did. During a press event, Nat goes in front of the camera and says, quote, arlene, if you are watching this, please get in touch, just to let us all know that you're safe and well. The children are missing you terribly. If you do not want to come home right now, at least let us know you're all right. Now, the whole press conference, he's very calm. He doesn't come across as worried or upset. And while he admitted that the children missed Arlene, he personally didn't say anything about loving her or missing her or wanting her back for his own sake. Honestly, it doesn't come across like he really cares. And obviously, different people show their emotions differently. It's hard from the outside to tell. So the police still don't have enough evidence to arrest Nat or charge him with anything. And weeks turn into months with no new breaks. And by late 1998, the investigators were running out of leads. They had worked with a local news team to do a TV special on Arlene's disappearance parents. The hope was that if they raised awareness, tipsters might see her story and feel inspired to come forward with new information. And it actually worked.
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See Terms so soon after this program aired, someone reached out to the police. They were like, hey, I just watched this thing about, you know, Arlene's disappearance and I actually saw something strange the day before Arlene's disappearance back on April 27. But they hadn't said anything earlier because they never realized it could potentially be tied to a crime. So the tipster said back in April, the day before she disappeared, they were trying to sell a used car. And on the 27th, a man contacted them wanting to buy it. He gave the seller extra cash so long as they agreed not to tell anyone about him, which obviously stands out as weird. They don't understand why a perfectly legal, ordinary used car cell had to be a secret and like it was on the black market. But they also were like, I'm not doing anything wrong. He's agreeing to buy it. So they accepted the deal. And they almost forgot about it until months later when they watched the special on Arlene's disappearance. And now they couldn't help but wonder if the buyer might have used that car to then do something to Arlene. I mean, it was the day before. Maybe that's why he was being so secretive. Now, of course, this isn't much to go on, but the tip caught the Police's attention when they learned the name of the buyer. The tipster said it was a man named Hector Dick. And Hector was actually very good friends with Nat. In fact, Nat had been the best man at Hector's wedding. The investigators wondered, okay, so the husband's best friend buys a car, asks the seller not to tell anyone, and then the next day the wife is killed, goes missing. Maybe he used this car to kidnap his best friend's wife for him. So they pull Hector in for an interrogation. He obviously denies everything. He wouldn't even admit that he had bought the car. However, the investigators felt like they had a major lead. Now, they held Hector in jail while they continue to investigate. And in the meantime, Nat had other legal issues he was dealing with. You'll remember he was still facing attempted murder charges for choking Arlene. Well, it was time for him to go to trial. He agreed to a deal. Nat pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of assault, and he was sentenced to 18 months in prison. And one day toward the end of that 18 month sentence. So time goes by, A guard ends up contacting the police. He's like, listen, I don't have a smoking gun. But he had noticed something odd that seemed worth bringing up. Namely, a guy named Glenn. Lucas had been visiting Nat in prison pretty regularly. Glenn had known Nat for years. He was a good friend, just like Hector. And Glenn had also known Arlene and didn't live that far from the home. Glenn had actually already been on the police's radar for a while because they knew Nat couldn't have, you know, killed Arlene because his alibi. So they had suspected that he had some type of accomplices and had looked into his friends, and Glenn was one of them. Now, the problem was there was no hard evidence against Glenn. But this prison guard contacted the police to tell them that all of Glenn's visits to Nat had been recorded on security cameras. Now, unfortunately, they didn't capture audio, only video. But when the officials watched the tapes of their visits, they see Nat talking to Glenn. And from their body language, you could tell that when what they were talking about was intense and emotional, it wasn't casual chat. It was something important they were discussing. So the police actually hired a lip reader to watch the tape and try and figure out what Nat was telling Glenn. And after this expert reviewed the footage, she said they were talking about disposing of a body. Glenn and Nat spoke for a while, apparently about cutting off the dead person's arms and legs. And. And they discussed breaking someone's teeth. So they couldn't be verified by dental records. So in other words, it's a very detailed discussion of how to get away with murder. This is what the lip reader says, and it's exactly what police are looking for. They're trying to tie Nat to Arlene's disappearance, and they feel like this is enough to charge him with her murder. The problem was there were a few issues with the lip reader's findings. According to other experts, the prison footage was pretty blurry. So they were like, how is this lip reader even telling what is coming out of Nat's mouth? They said, there's no possible way that you could read these lips. Now, the person the police had hired must have been exaggerating or mistaken. Now, the officers argued, no, you can see Nat's mouth. The lip reader's interpretation is correct. Basically, there was a lot of back and forth about legal hearings. Is this even accurate? Is this even evidence enough to arrest someone? But at the end of the day, the lip readers take on Nat and Glenn's conversations ended up not being admissible in court. So the state has to build a case without it. Now, the good news was that the officials didn't need the lip reader during Nat's trial in January of 2003. They call Hector Dick to the stand. As a reminder, this is the man who bought the used car. Now, despite what he said earlier, Hector testifies at court that he did purchase the car for Nat. Apparently, Nat had told Hector he wanted to have Arlene killed. He had hired a hitman. Although Hector's like, I don't know who it was. Nat had claimed he had to do it because Arlene was having an affair. She needed to be punished. Now, I don't know if Hector believed that story back then or if this was even real, but I will note that there's no sign Arlene ever cheated on Nat. It's more likely that he killed her because he was angry she was leaving and he couldn't control her anymore. Either way, Nat asked Hector to buy a car that couldn't be traced to him so he could use it to dispose of Arlene's body. So Hector's like, being the best friend I am. I bought it. And then the next day, she went missing. Now, presumably once Arlene was dead, Nat used the car to drive somewhere remote, chop her up, grind up the pieces, and then burn them. Hector also testified that after the disappearance, Nat actually gave the car back to him and. And Hector scrapped it for parts and then destroyed the remaining evidence. But he does see on Stan, he did know what Nat was up to. He never went to the police, and apparently he did help cover up the crime. Now, as for Glenn, he didn't testify, but the prosecutors presented evidence that he was the hitman. So these three, Glenn, Hector and Nat, had allegedly conspired to kill Arlene, all while letting Nat craft a perfect alibi. Now, between Hector's testimony, the rings in the bathroom, the other evidence, the jury was convinced Nat definitely had done this. And they found him guilty of murder and he was sentenced to life in prison. And as for Glenn and Hector, they were originally also charged with conspiracy to murder. But during Nat's trial, prosecutors dropped all of the charges against them. In Hector's case, it was because they wanted him to testify. And officials have never explained why they decided not to pursue charges against Glenn. I don't know if it's because they thought he only kidnapped her and then delivered her to Nat for not to murder. The point is, Nat's the only person who serves any time for Arlene's murder. He files a bunch of Appeals, and in 2011, he actually won the right to a retrial. But this hearing didn't go his way. Once again, Nat was found guilty, sentenced to life in prison with a possibility of parole in 17 years. But I need to be clear, this was not a completely happy ending. Arlene's family was very relieved to see Nat pay the price for his crimes. But they don't have closure because throughout all of this process, Nat claimed he was innocent. He's like, no, I'm not telling you how Arlene died. I'm not telling you where her body is, because I don't know. So the police never found her remains, so her loved ones couldn't even bury her or give her a proper funeral. And it's also worth noting that Nat's last trial was in 2012. If he's paroled after 17 years, he'll be due for release in 2029. So in 2028, he'll have hearings for that. Many of Arlene's loved ones think it would be fair and unjust for Nat to go free while Arlene's body is still missing. In fact, they're like, this is just him continuing to abuse her. He's controlling her family's grieving process, preventing her from having a funeral. He's holding power over her investigation. So for the past decade and a half, they've been fighting for a change to parole laws in Scotland. They want it to be easier for murderers to get released if they cooperate with police and lead them to the victim's remains. And harder to get parole if they continue to keep information a secret. Basically, they want to set it up so Nat will stay in prison if he refuses to say what actually happened. But if he points officials toward her remains, that could get him one step closer to freedom. And it's not that they want him to get out in 2029. They just want an incentive for him to come clean. Now this, thanks to their efforts, that law actually did pass in September of 2025. Meaning when NAT is up for parole, he will have to decide, should I keep a secret or should I let it out? And as of this recording, Nat still hasn't told anyone where to find Arlene's remains. He hasn't even admitted that he's done it. But that could change in the next few months. We'll just have to watch the news to see how things play out. The important thing to remember as we wrap up is that Nat didn't get away with it. He didn't pull off the perfect crime, but he did come close. I mean, there's not a lot of big evidence in this case. Sadly, he did find a way to continue to hurt Arlene and the people who loved her, even from behind bars. But at least he's paying the price for his crimes, and that is the murder of Arlene. Thank you guys so much for watching or listening to today's episode. And I will see you next time with another one. Goodbye. Insurance isn't one size fits all this. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name youe Price Tool for years. Now, with the Name youe Price Tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. 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