A (5:12)

Sure. Well, I think that there are a couple of things. One is you were kind enough to mention my book, but there are three teachers who actually developed a educational program for middle and high school students from that of which a part is emotion regulation. Sadly, we have an antiquated educational system which has not significantly changed probably over the last 150 years. And with technology and frankly, a change in culture, it does create a disservice to a large swath of the population. And sadly, with the focus on sort of an authoritarian and regimented approach, while there's a subset of people who respond to that, and sadly, I think it's a subset of people who understand that narrative clearly. And I think oftentimes we see this in first generation families who see a path forward for their children, which is wonderful. Although the pressure sometimes that these parents put on their children is very unreasonable and causes a lot of anxiety and depression and stress, which frankly is not necessarily beneficial to the child. But I think also what happens is that it becomes a narrative of win at all cost, and there's only one winner. And the problem with that, of course, is it doesn't promote compassion, thoughtfulness and niceness. It promotes divisiveness and Separation and a goal of winning. And what that does, unfortunately, is, as you know, we were talking about a little bit earlier, cheating at a number of major universities, some of the most competitive universities, like Harvard or Stanford, because there's a subset of people who believe that that's what you have to do to win. And unfortunately, that's a horrible narrative. And when those people act in that way in college, it's basically imprinted in them and they're not going to change. So if it takes cheating and lying to move ahead in a professional position, they're willing to do that. And that's the worst thing we can have. I think, as you pointed out, children learn in different ways. And just because someone doesn't learn in the same way as society has decided they should learn, does it negate the value of that child? I'm sure you've probably seen that cartoon. It shows, like, a monkey, an elephant, an alligator, a penguin all standing together. And they give them one test, which is climbing a tree. And of course, everyone fails but the monkey. Right?

B (8:10)

That's perfect.

A (8:12)

And that's not how life works. All of us are different, and we learn in different ways. And you mentioned me in some ways. I mean, I can tell you from my own personal experience that I had a very hard time. Now, part of it was due to poverty, part of it was due to not really understanding how to study. But I did not excel either in grades or on standardized testing. And I've been fortunate to still be able to overcome those limitations. But I would say by far and away, I'm an exception and not the rule. And what I mean by that is, for every one of me who struggled through this system to achieve, there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who did not benefit in any way, and their lives were destroyed or certainly changed in a negative way because of the manner in which education has been put forth.

B (9:23)

I agree with you. And the extent to which it, I guess, violates some of the basic principles of education, really. I mean, if you think about what you should be teaching and, and what kids should be learning, it seems pretty easy to think about how to design. I don't know. At least to me it seems, like, obvious, you know, what would you want to teach your own children? Okay, let's do that in school, you know, and, you know, you want to teach them love, you want to teach them how to. How you know how to get along with other people, how. You know, my kids, when they go to high school, they don't even. Or junior. No, it was grade School, they didn't have a second to even talk to one another. The teacher would get right. Anytime you try to talk to your friends, I mean, do you remember this? When I was in school, it's like it wasn't okay to talk to your friends ever. Ever. Yeah, so.

A (10:20)

Well, yeah, no, I think that's right. And, and the thing is that when you sort of create an interdependent environment where one people are encouraged to help others and even, you know, there's some schools that actually bring together different levels of students. Let's say fifth graders with seventh graders and the seventh graders teach them. But this whole idea of orienting education about, around being helpful and thoughtful and kind, I mean, nothing is more discouraging than bullying we see in schools and some of these other problems, when part of the solution is letting children be children, which also includes play. Right. I mean, not having the ability to play and release energy is horrible. Plus, that's how kids learn, by interacting and playing and having a good time. And it's also how you develop resilience, you know?

B (11:23)

Yeah, that, that's, I mean, we, we, we're simpatico on this. We share the exact same, same view. And I think what's, what's curious to me is how individuals who are smart, have all the power, all the money, can sit around for generations, really, and decide that the best way to solve the problems that face our world, whether it be climate change or ethnic conflict or, I mean, what, you know, what do superpowers say they want to do? They probably do want to do some of that stuff, right? That they think the best way to do that is to create this funnel where you weed out 99.999% of, of the hum of the intellectual brain power of humanity and focus on the one or two people that are going to have the idea that is going to revolutionize the planet and you know, create that, that equation in physics or quantum mechanics that's going to solve our need to find another planet to live on because we've destroyed this one, or it's going to figure out the, the way to. It's a way to stop people from disadvantaged groups arguing with one another. Right. I mean, you're going to get that one genius that's going to solve it all instead of nurturing everybody we have and allowing the entire wealth of human experience to inform how to solve social problems. And

A (13:10)

well, you know, their end part is part of the problem because that subset of people have a perception that they're right and they should be listened to. And also in some ways, these people feel they have a right to be in that position. And the problem is, when you question that right, like anyone who has privilege to, they feel they're being oppressed. If you bring these issues up, and this is in part part of the problem with income inequality, which is a fundamental, significant contributor to poverty and also the ills, if you will, of the educational system. I think one of the other problems, of course, is in the United States, at least, schools are funded through tax dollars, local tax dollars. And if you live in a poor area, then you by definition have a poor school. And this is actually the opposite of what it should be, where you should put resources into disadvantaged schools, because frankly, the groups from affluent backgrounds don't need that level of support. Or certainly it should be a much more equitable distribution because as you know, when you come from poverty, it's not just the lack of money, it's as an example, a lot of kids don't have a place where they can study. A lot of kids come from unstable, chaotic parental situations or home life. And also in those situations, there's a lot of chaos and instability. And somehow to think that a child's going to overcome this magically, it's not realistic. And to be honest with you, it goes beyond the schools. I mean, you have to have a safe place to be able to sleep or a safe home life, or you have to have food. You can't educate a child or promote motion regulation if a child's hungry or if a child's been abused or is in an abusive situation. And fundamentally, every one of these problems relates to, frankly, worsening income inequality, in my opinion.

B (15:40)

So where do you, where do you envision, where do you envision changing something like that? I mean, do you, do you think that there's anyone who's at the top who is interested in changing the incoming inequality?

A (16:05)

Well, the challenge is that the government system in the United States especially is controlled by a fairly small billionaire class and corporate interests. I don't know if you've seen the study. Princeton did this study and it was how legislation gets passed. And basically it took the data over 20 years and it said if there is a population in The United States, 95% of which wish to either pass or not pass some law, the likelihood of that actually occurring is minuscule. If it is a legislation that relates to corporate self interest or the self interest of billionaires, then that has a likelihood of passing of about 60 to 90%. If that same class of people choose something not to pass effectively 100% of the time, it will not pass. So, so the problem is that you have a group of people who control the levers of power, and frankly, they're not going to change who controls those levers until they're forced to. And this is the nature of privilege. And as soon as you bring this up, which always amuses me, as an example, if you point out that oil companies get the largest amount of government subsidies or industrial farms, or the fact that Walmart basically benefits about $6 billion a year because they pay their employees such a low amount of money that they have to go on welfare or get health benefits through the Medicaid system, nobody complains about those vast swaths of money that corporations are fundamentally stealing from the citizenry, when of course, they're the people who make the money. And so there's a great saying by Tolstoy who says there's a man on your back choking you. He acknowledges he's on your back choking you, but at no time does he make any effort to get off your back and stop choking you. And unfortunately, any person who is a person of privilege will not voluntarily give up privilege that benefits them. It's just like if you are paid to fundamentally cheat people and that's where your source of income is from, then it's okay to cheat people. And I hate to sound so cynical, but I think time and time again this has been proven the case. And until we create a narrative that brings people up in arms, and I'm not talking about this small percentage of people, but the working class people, then we're always going to be struggling.

B (19:11)

So I've thought about this a little and I think that in the same way you wouldn't want a Russian revolution where you basically have the working class or, you know, take from the people with privilege. And that's what I mean, that's, that's what you're looking at once, once you create the kind of income disparities that we're, we're headed towards. I mean, you're looking at people just literally physically taking away things from people who have things, which to me it seems chaotic and, you know, unsustainable and a huge problem. But I was just going to say that if you think about the issue a little differently, like maybe like, as a human rights issue, where the idea of having a lot of money and power and privilege isn't a problem in and of itself, especially if you've done, you know, things to really, you know, like, you've, like things that you've you've done, you know, that you write about in your book. I mean, the, the kinds of, the work ethic you had, the, the, you know, the, the morality that you developed. The, I mean, there's. So I would say, I'm not suggesting that, that somebody like you would be subject to, oh, let's level the playing field here. You know, Dr. Doty, you know, it's like. No, I'm saying something different. What if human rights becomes your metric, your barometer, and anyone can do anything that they want to do as long as they have a stellar record on human rights. And so whether it's a corporation or a company or, or, or a, I'm sorry, corporation or an individual, they just, you know, you just, you have a different kind of a way of vetting who can stay in power and you slap lawsuits or put people in prison and you crack down on white collar crime instead. And you really try to elevate human rights as your standard. Sorry, I can tell you.

A (21:21)

No, no, no, I understand what you're saying. You know, the challenge with that, of course, is that as I said, those in power typically don't stand by and let their power taken be taken. But I agree with you. I mean, obviously you don't want a Russian revolution or a French Revolution to create anarchy. My point to you in making those examples though is if you mention creating programs for the poor, education, health care, etc. There is a huge outcry from this subset of people who say you're promoting socialism and you're giving people welfare. But you see, the point Mai was making was that we give massive amounts of corporate welfare. And there's never a statement about that whatsoever. I mean, massive billions of dollars in corporate welfare. And my point is that one that needs to stop. The other problem, of course, is that as one becomes wealthier, they don't become more generous. And I think study after study has demonstrated this reality. In fact, if anything, they become more selfish and look through the lens of scarcity. But I think the aspect that we need to remember is most people don't aspire to be a billionaire. Most people aspire to have a job that allows them to feed their family, have shelter, maybe a little entertainment, and have security and a situation where their children can prosper. And that doesn't take billions of dollars or even millions of dollars. So it's not a matter of somehow these people aspiring to do that. I would say that the wealthy class have to, though, realize that if they continue with this level of self interest, they are Going to create that Russian revolution or French Revolution and then things will come tumbling down. And the other aspect of this, of course, is there's the anxiety of so many people because they are suffering economically and it relates, of course, or has an impact on the educational system. But they also have an existential crisis of climate change and the world coming apart at the seams. And that creates its own level of stress and anxiety which interferes with oftentimes education.

B (24:15)

Yeah, I mean, you seem to me to be suggesting almost like a rehabilitation for the. You now, you put everybody in the upper class in the same category. And what I was trying to do is be, you know, suggest that, you know, that people do vary on the human rights, you know, dimension that just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. I mean, I think we need to be like, I mean, maybe it does because, you know, everybody probably, and I don't know what I'm talking about.

A (24:50)

Well, I'm not trying to put everybody in that basket, of course. Not at all. Now I would say a large percentage of people, but don't get me wrong, I've met some very thoughtful, kind billionaires or extraordinarily wealthy people. Listen, I'm in the top 1%. I don't deny that at all. But that is far different. And this is not a justification statement. But the group of people I'm talking about is not the top 1%. It's the top.001%. The eight or 10 or 15 individuals who control 50% of the wealth in the world. Now that is obscene. But there are tons of people who have worked hard and have prospered. Unfortunately, the nature oftentimes of being in that situation creates a very challenging environment and frankly, many of us are blinded by things. You know, when oftentimes you're in these situations, it's not as clear to you that you may be part of the problem either.

B (26:01)

The thing that's concerning this is why I'm so focused on education as a pathway through. Because we can't really do much about those of us who've come up within this system. That's pretty damaging from my vantage point. But we can make it so that the kids who end up being responsible for decisions in the future or the, the, the children who will be the next billionaires can feel very differently about, about what they're willing to do to get there and what they're willing to do when they're there. And you know, our, you know, I, I don't like to talk about change, changing systems. But, but there are arguments that could be made to the people in power now who are concerned about competition for scarce resources and they might, or who have a problem with thinking about economics differently from a, you might call it compassion. I would call it, you know, letting your compassion drive your, you know, drive your spending habits. Right. I mean, if you think about the amount of money just from a self interest perspective that's available when people are actually being driven through compassion motives, there's a lot more money that's going to be spent in that context than if they're self interest interested and, and hoarding and, and consuming. They take, they take resources out of the population when you, when you come at it from that perspective. So maybe there are self interest motives that could be, you know, put to the people in, in power now as a, hey, you adopt our compassion model and now you're going to be a trillionaire. How about that? Would that work?

A (28:01)

I don't think so.

B (28:03)

Billion's enough. I don't want that complexity.

A (28:06)

Well, I think again, I was at a event on Necker Island, I don't know if you're familiar, Richard Branson's private island. Right, okay. And it was put on by a group, a wealth management group, so everybody there was worth at least a quarter of a billion dollars. And it was interesting because as an example, I had a conversation with a young man and I say, young, he's probably in his mid to late 30s, but he was saying how he had made $350 million, which is wonderful. And I said, so what is your life goal now? And he goes, well, I have to make a billion dollars. And I said, but why? I mean, what are you getting for that billion dollars? And he couldn't answer the question other than that the goal was to be worth a billion dollars. And I said, okay, so let's pretend you're now worth a billion dollars. What are you going to do with that? Or what's the next thing? And he said, well, now I need to get 2 billion. And you're sitting there going, but for what purpose are you doing all of this? And it's sort of a fascinating discussion because at no point was there any comment on social good whatsoever. And so I think unfortunately you have this driver of many people's behavior that they can't even explain. It just is from a lens of competitiveness. And I win, you lose. And it's hard for me to even comprehend when people make these types of statements. But look, don't get me wrong. I mean, there are people who are extraordinarily wealthy who give immense amounts to projects. But as you probably already know, if you look at a lot of charities, they struggle. I mean, theoretically, the work that I do, which is focused on compassion and on some level improving the world, I have to run around all year long begging for money, I should say all the time begging for money to support a nonprofit that has brought programs and teachings to well over a million people, if not more. And why is that? An individual who's extraordinarily wealthy could put 10, 15, 20, 30, 50 million. And I always say it doesn't have to do with me. Do it for anybody who's doing a program that helps people to do good in the world.

B (30:53)

Yeah. The issue about begging and pleading to try to do something good versus how easy it is to do something not so good, that asymmetry is concerning. It's like you're identifying the alcoholic mindset or, you know, again from your book, I just, I reread it just before our talks. I mean, going back to that. But that, that addictive drive, I mean, it doesn't seem like there's any difference between a coke addict and a billionaire in terms of what is driving them. And, and, and what, and what you're talking about to me seems reminiscent of, you know, trying to talk sense into somebody who's addicted to cocaine. You know, in terms of, hey, you're gonna kill yourself, you're gonna kill the people that you love. But they, it doesn't matter because what the brain, as you know, is addicted to is that dopamine rush that they're getting much, or opioids or, or all of it. Right. It's just like hedonic pleasure centers over and over and over again. And it's, it's gonna, it's gonna blind them. Not intellectually, but at least in terms of how the brain works. That, that consumption drive is gonna be, is gonna overshadow the compassionate.

A (32:26)

No, I think that's exactly right. And that, that is the challenge and is, you know, how do you make these individuals see a different narrative? Now the only time I've seen that really happen is one, if there's a life threatening illness that affects them individually or a family member, and then suddenly they realize that they are a human being with a finite existence and that they can't control everything, but very few sort of spontaneously come to Jesus, if you will, unless there's some profound event. And I think it relates to what you're saying about an addiction. Most people don't stop being an addict until they hit rock bottom. And that rock bottom can be all sorts of things. And many of these individuals who are addicted to wealth accumulation, until they have that event occur, nothing changes. And it's sad because so many of these people, when you think about the accumulation of wealth and a very small number of people, what it could do for society and the world in general would be massive, and they would still all be extraordinarily wealthy, as they are. As an example, in terms of lifestyle, what's the difference between whether you have 250 billion versus 5 billion? It changes absolutely nothing. Right.

B (33:58)

Well, I have an idea. Okay. As we're talking. So prestige and legacy are things that I know these people are at least a few that, you know, I've read. Sometimes they. Things that they've written. There is. There are things more than money that are just as important in terms of status. Right? So if you're the billionaire that solves the climate change problem, or you're the billionaire that transforms the world, because now you've read evolutionary psychology and you realize that actually, if you make people feel safe, they're going to reproduce less. And all of a sudden, a couple generations from now, your grandchildren will be thriving because you, you made this change. You. You decided to. Maybe you don't want to spend your billions, but you spend the money of the taxpayers because you're able to influence them to vote for programs that make everyone feel safe, because when everybody feels safe, everybody stops reproducing massively. And then. And they, you know, I'm just saying there are, There are appeals you could make to the status of people. It's like, do you want to, you know, the coke addict, do you want to just do your coke, or do you want to, like, you know, do it with friends? Right? I mean, it's like that kind of thing, you know, it's. That's just terrible to put it this way. But. But stance and prestige and legacy, you could, you could think about almost like leading a horse to water. Almost like. Like these people are in the. That's the thing. Their addiction has nevertheless put them in a position to transform the world in a very positive way.

A (36:02)

No, I totally agree with you. Yeah. I don't know what the driver is to change that, though, in terms of that perception. It's interesting. I've talked to a few of these folks, and one of the narratives that I find always fascinating is that, well, these people are lazy and they don't want to work. That's always an interesting. I Don't know. Very few people who are lazy, per se. Yeah. Are there people who are troubled, Mental illness, drug addicts and things like that? Well, that's a different subset for the average person who's poor. They're not poor because they're lazy. They're poor because of circumstances have worked against them and it's not their fault. And sort of putting it always in the context of they're lazy. I was having a conversation with Robert Sapolsky about his interpretation of free will, but he made a statement which I think is true, that, you know, if you look at all the poor people, most of them and their offspring will also be poor. And so there's not a social mobility by the nature of how we've structured society for many, many people, unfortunately. And using individuals who've sort of overcome it is not really a fair analogy. Right. It's like saying, oh, well, Shaquille o' Neal became a great basketball player. Therefore, every minority child has the opportunity to be Shaquille o' Neal or James lebron or whoever it is. And that's just a ridiculous statement. It's like saying, you know, every kid has a chance to be a neurosurgeon. No. And because they don't, isn't their fault.

B (37:51)

Right.

A (37:52)

But anyway, we don't have to continue on this topic.

B (37:55)

No, that's okay. I do have a question for you. Sure. If. If you don't mind. Sure. So you talked about Ruth suggesting ways to open your heart, like, before doing things to try to, you know, bring your dreams into play. And. And you said that you made. So you made some statements that made me think that you. You were lamenting the fact that you feel like your life would have been different if you had heeded that part of her instruction a little bit more. And I. I don't know if we can assume that people who turn in. Tune into this podcast have read. Read your book. So if you. If you want to talk about that a little bit. But my question. My question to you is, now that you've written your second book, now that you've seen how your life has unfolded, do you really regret. Do you really think that things could have been different? And if so, what would you have liked to see be different? Or do you feel like the universe sort of had a different plan in store for you and maybe you did exactly the right thing?

A (39:17)

Well, you know, the first sentence of the new book, you. You probably don't know the first sentence says the universe doesn't give a fuck about you, but Getting back to your question one. Yeah. I mean, depending on the circumstances, if I had been born into wealth and had a different path and had different parents, would my situation be different? Probably profoundly so. And is it certainly possible that I could be a self absorbed narcissist focused on wealth accumulation? Sure. That being said, I think what you're referring to in terms of the mistake I made is as follows. As you know from my book, I grew up in poverty and my father was an alcoholic and my mother had had a stroke when I was a child. And as a result of that, and she was chronically depressed, I should say attempted suicide. We were on public assistance. You know, I grew up with a sense of despair and hopelessness. And you mentioned Ruth. I ended up one day in a magic shop and met this woman named Ruth. And Ruth was quite insightful. And she was one of these people who you just felt naturally relaxed with and safe with. And she ended up teaching me a meditation practice which allowed me to deal with my internal conflicts as well as my stress and anxiety, which was characterized as muscle tenseness and not being able to attend or focus. And of course, in that situation, which is true of many children, if you have war going on at home, you know, you're living in a battlefield all the time and never know what's going to happen. And this is why so many of these children end up with post traumatic stress disorder, which then interferes with their ability to succeed in life by standards of society. So what happened is Ruth taught me a visualization or a manifestation technique. Well, I was 12 years old, so I had no insight or self awareness. So she said, you know, make a list of 10 things you want. And you know, the list included a Rolex watch and living in a mansion and having a million dollars and having a Porsche, et cetera, et cetera. Now, I have to say I did get every one of those things. And the problem was that my motivation was actually not only to get them, but with a false belief that when I got them or when I accomplish anything, there would be this external affirmation that would make me feel secure with myself or overcome the shame that I carried with me because of my background. And of course that did not happen. I would have friends who. And friends may not be the right word at this point, but I would have individuals who I hung out with and they would say how great my life was. You know, I was driving a Ferrari or Porsche, had a big mansion overlooking the ocean, and I was never more miserable in my entire life than when I was in that situation. And the problem was is that my actions were based on getting affirmations externally, and that that did not fill the emptiness I felt inside. So after losing $80 million when the dot com crashed, I went back and went through a period of reflection. And what I realized was that even though I was a doctor and helping people, I was focused on me. I want this. And it was, I want this so I can prove that I'm okay. And that did not work whatsoever. And so through this period of reflection, I changed how I saw the world. And it wasn't focused on me anymore. It was, how can I be of service? And that's a different narrative. And in some ways, that saved me and made me whole again. And it took the emphasis off of me, but it put the emphasis on what is it that I can do to help others. And that changed everything. And this is why I say I went from rags to riches and then to rags. But going back in that situation actually created an environment in some ways where I, if you will, got extraordinary riches. But that richness was not monetary. It was having the honor and privilege of meeting some of the greatest spiritual and religious leaders in the world and understanding that essentially every one of these individuals who's an evolved spiritual leader lives above the dogma of their religion because every one of them believes in compassion, unconditional love, acceptance, caring. And that's where I decided I wanted to focus and listen. I also understand that I'm an imperfect being and have messed up multiple times and will probably continue. But that is my focus at this point in time, and I try to stay on that path. But I am an imperfect, flawed human being who's trying to do the best they can. Now, that being said, when I lost all of this money and was effectively in the whole $3 million, I had two individuals who became friends of mine. One was my banker, because I'd borrowed $15 million, and the other was my lawyer. And the banker wanted his money. And to deal with all those aspects, I also had to deal with my lawyer. But I had to sell everything pretty much. And even after selling everything, I was still $3 million in the hole. But my attorney, he told me that I had made some provisions for charity to give stock away in a company. And. It turned out he had never filed the paperwork. They had made a mistake. So all of the stock I was going to give away, I still owned. And he said to me, said, you know, so you're not going to be broke. And after this period of reflection, I decided to go ahead and give it all away still. And that ended up being $30 million. And. But when I did that, that liberated me. And what I mean by that was I was so focused on proving to people I was worthy and, if you will, making money, that. That liberated me from that. I didn't need that anymore. That wasn't the driver or the definer of who I was. And it was the greatest gift because it allowed me to meet all these spiritual and religious leaders and become friends with the Dalai Lama and chairman of the Dalai Lama Foundation. So in some ways, I went from rags to riches to rags, but also a different type of riches.

B (46:56)

Yeah. So I guess. So my question. Would you have done anything differently or not?

A (47:06)

Well, I think the challenge for everybody is that you don't have that crystal ball to look through. You would like to believe that the situation you have today was the ideal one for you to become who you are. Would you become who you are without that? And I don't know if anybody can answer that question, but the problem is, of course, am I the perfect person I would like to be? No. Could I be better? Sure. If I had different circumstances, could I have been a lot better? Maybe. But I have no crystal ball to look through. So I'm thankful that I am, with you, alive and able to contribute what little I am able to try to make the world a little bit better.

B (47:53)

Well, I have to say I found the writing in your book, the level of conversation, how the different sections that you are or what you chose to write about, how you weave that together. You. You brought. I mean, you. You brought yourself alive for, I don't know, to help other people take that journey. At least help me take the journey through your life that was so incredible and transformative for you. But for me, and just in just reading about what a person could do and, and, and it was the fastest read of any book I've ever read in my entire life. I didn't want to put it down. It's really true. And I don't read very much, so it's. It's so. It's just a delight. And I just find it. It's remarkable. And I. Gosh, I just really encourage everyone to read it. That's what you could do. Give the book to those friends of yours who don't do anything to help the world. They'll bet if they read those, it might make a difference.

A (49:09)

Well, I would tell you that many have. And the challenge is all of us create a delusion of how we think of ourselves. Whether it's me or you. And there's a great book you may have seen. It was called Mistakes Were Made, but not by me. It's by two psychologists. And one of the aspects of it is that they interviewed, I think, 10 former dictators and they had a conversation with them. And essentially everyone said, no, I was not responsible for the murder and killings. This was done unauthorized by other people. No, I did not steal the millions of dollars I'm accused of stealing. Other people did it. I was just trying to work in the best interests of the people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So no one who's a horrible person believes they're a horrible person because you cannot wake up every day. So everyone creates a narrative that justifies their behavior and their existence. And this is why I say, I've talked to some people and they'll say, well, these people are lazy. Well, if they accumulate their wealth of unfairly, then they have to create a narrative that justifies their success. As an example, what job is possibly worth somebody being paid a billion dollars in a year for? There isn't any. Okay? And typically those situations are basically from large events happening that these people either instituted or instigated or created, created, and they benefit. And you know, in their world, they go, well, I created this, therefore I deserve this. Well, really, how does that different than, you know, somebody working very hard, their lives digging ditches? You know, you are just a winner of the sperm lottery. It wasn't as if, you know, you had some innate special knowledge. It's just you were a product of your circumstances. Well, how does that make you any better than anybody else? But anyway, thank you for the kind words. I'm supposed to be interviewing you. I'm sorry, but that's okay. But you know, my other book, which is called Mind Magic, the Neuroscience of Manifestation and How It Changes Everything. It actually talks a lot about this manifestation process and takes it out of the woo woo pseudoscience arena and talks about how brain networks, cognitive networks interact.

B (51:48)

Cool.

A (51:49)

And how you can, if you will, maximize your ability to embed your intention. But the fundamental aspect of it, which relates to what we're talking about is, as you know, we had an educational system that promoted the I generation. And what I mean by that is this idea that if there are 10 people in a race, everybody's a winner, right? If you just show up, you're a winner. And that's not how society works. There are winners and there are losers. And in a competitive environment, you have to perform. Now, this isn't to say you take advantage of people or you beat up weak people, but there are certain domains where you have to perform. And that's okay because what happens otherwise is you create a entitled group of people. And I'm sure you've run across this too, where people say, well, I don't think I should have to do this, or Jesus, not fair. You're demanding that I show up in class every day or et cetera, et cetera. You know, I came to class, therefore I should get an A. And that's not how the world works. So I think there has to be a situation where people understand that you don't get everything you want just because you want it. And I think that the purpose of the new book actually is when you focus everything on you. In some ways that's a very maladaptive, unhealthy situation. And you don't get what you want if you don't work for it, versus if you look at the world through the lens of compassion and how can I be of service to others? That's actually not only how you maximize your own physiology, both brain and peripheral, but that gives life purpose and meaning, which ultimately gives long lasting happiness. So if you focused your, if you will, your goals and aspirations in that direction versus saying, you know, I want a new Porsche, which is what I did at 12, you may get it, but it's not, at the end of the day really going to benefit you a whole lot.

B (54:11)

Yeah, it's an onerous task to ask a 12 year old to decide what they want for themselves.

A (54:18)

I mean, yeah, yes, exactly.

B (54:23)

But what?

A (54:25)

Go ahead.

B (54:26)

No, go ahead.

A (54:27)

No, I was just going to say, yeah, I mean, that being said, that's the only thing she gave me the ability to make that decision and she didn't, or I probably wouldn't have listened if she said, well, you need to focus just on others and not about yourself. Because if you come from a deprived background and you have lived with scarcity, you know, you sort of want and believe based on societal narratives of success that wow, I want what creates success. And, but it doesn't. And I didn't know that. And so it was a decades long lesson to learn. But, and I think ultimately if we're going to self actualize, if that's the right term, that is the conclusion at the end of the day you have to come to is to have a life of meaning and purpose and happiness. Ultimately you have to be of service to others versus a self centered narcissistic self absorption which Leaves you isolated by yourself and nobody wants to be around you, frankly. Yeah.

B (55:40)

Yeah, I. I think that it's. It just seems like a really exciting area to me to study that interplay, because obviously we go back and forth between being focused on our own needs and. And focus. Focus on the needs of others. And I might argue in your situation that. That the most important thing for you at that time was money. You know, that unless you were able to, I mean, that. That you had such big goals and dreams and. And at least in my field, I mean, it's. You're providing a. An anchor and a rigor to the kind of work that I do that is, know, absolutely critical for it to be taken seriously and have any chance of transforming, you know, anything, you know, at the smallest level, at the largest level. And, And. But to get, you know, to get you to the. To the place where you are making such a huge difference again, I mean, I'm just speaking for myself in the area that I'm focused on, but. But I do see it as having great potential. And to get you to that point, you needed that money, you know, I mean, you needed to be able to break into that group that you broke into. At least that's. That's a little bit how I see it.

A (57:13)

Well, probably, though, that. I would say, though, I probably should have looked at it through, how can I improve my family situation? Right? Or how can I make my family or my loved ones more comfortable or help me?

B (57:30)

They were hurting you that you wrote about. I mean.

A (57:34)

Well, I don't think they were consciously hurting me by neglecting me. But see, this is the way in which compassion changes your perspective. Right. You know, I used to have a lot of anger and hostility towards my parents, but it was because I wasn't seeing them through the lens of compassion. My parents weren't bad or evil. They were focused on their own situation. My father didn't have the tools to overcome his alcoholism, and my mother didn't have the tools to overcome her depression. And so I looked at them as individuals who were suffering because they weren't able to overcome their addictions or their mental narratives that crippled them. And so I didn't have any anger at them any longer. And I realized that everyone is suffering, and it wasn't necessarily their fault. You know, circumstances oftentimes cause suffering that have nothing to do with the individual. And so I was much more thoughtful and gentle, and I've tried to bring that into interplay with people in general because, again, as I said earlier, a lot of People don't have insight or self awareness and a lot of people are in situations where which they didn't choose. It's just like you see people who've benefited extraordinarily from different situations. Either they were born into a family and a particular position and wealth. And it can be a two edged sword for some people. It is incredible, it can be helpful, it can become empowered, have profound effect on the world. And then you see others who grow up in horrible poverty and their life ends too soon. I wish I could say that the universe cared, but at best it's indifferent.

B (59:33)

Now I was going to ask where that first line in your book, what you meant by that?

A (59:40)

Well, what I meant by that actually is that the universe doesn't have any fucks to give. It's not as if there's somebody out there saying Stephanie deserves to be a full professor at Harvard. Therefore we make this happen. The reality is everything is within our heads and we have the power to choose. The problem is that so many people give their self agency away when they look for some magic to happen outside of themselves. Like geez, if only the universe would make this event happen. And I get what I want. And my point is that there is no outside universe that's going to do that. Within you is every bit of power to change your narrative. And I think that's really the point here, is for you to reclaim your self agency instead of giving it to other people. It's just like I'm sure you've told individuals who you care about or love or friends, et cetera, about aspirations or goals. And you'll have people sit, think oh you're never gonna do that. And you sit there and you go, wow, this was really important to me and you've just tore me down. And then there are a subset of people who somebody in authority or somebody they respect tells them that and they believe them. And you know, that's my point is that you have so much power within yourself and you limit your beliefs based on these external narratives that you listen to. And this is the nature of, in some ways of mindfulness, you have negative dialogue going on in your head. And once you say I can't or it's not possible, that becomes truth. And so the point of that is that there is no external event. It's all in you. It's like you're the only person who can choose happiness for yourself. It doesn't come from people telling you how great you are or the fact that you drive a Porsche or have a rolex Watch. It has to do with the sense inside yourself that you're okay. And it's taken decades for me to understand that, and sadly, decades for a lot of people. But hopefully, by educating people or explaining your own narratives, that hopefully will allow some of them to bypass the pain and suffering that you've gone through.

B (62:07)

Right, Right. I think that I have my parents to thank for being able to face that kind of challenge and say, no, I'm going to do this anyway, because that's what I had in graduate school. And without saying anything at all negative about the people who were my mentors, because they ended up making me the scientist that I am, and I'm internally grateful to them, but they put one of the biggest challenges in front of me, which was for all of them to say, I don't see what's important about what you're doing effectively.

A (62:51)

Well, but good for you. I mean, the fact that they did that, it allowed you to demonstrate your own strength and liberate yourself right. From other people's opinion. And in some ways, this is the challenge of manifestation, is to let go of your limited beliefs and believe that within you is the spark, if you will, to allow things to happen. But it only can happen once you believe.

B (63:21)

Right. And I feel like that's what would be so great to give to the next generation, which is that at least what Ruth gave you, what my parents gave me growing up was, you know, you get to be anything you want. And they said, you know, if you want to be a garbage man, you can do that. Because I was like, really? That's okay with you? Because I was, like, interested in those kinds of jobs, you know, when I was a little kid, you know, and I was like, well, what if I don't want to be a, you know, go into, you know, college? Oh, well, you don't have to. You, you, you could do. You can work when you're 16 if you want. And, you know, they. They told me I could literally do anything. And what if that message could be given to everybody? You know, like, you know, that.

A (64:09)

No, no. And, and, and the thing I think is important is there's no job. That's a bad job. I mean, maybe some people may not want to do it, but there are also people who do want to do it. And, and you know, what I told my children is I could care less whether they go to college or not. If they're a kind, nice, thoughtful human being, that's by far and away the most important thing. And it has nothing to do with money, position, or power, it's just being a nice person. But the other thing I said was I believe you're fairly intelligent. And what I think would be sad is if you don't use that potential the best way you can in whatever field, then I think you're doing a disservice to yourself. And also that you have a lot more choices when you excel at different things than if you barely make it through anything. And I think I would much rather be in a position where I can choose whether it's college or being a garbage person versus not

B (65:17)

now. It sounds perfect. I mean, I got the same. The same thing from my parents again. That's why I'm so focused on education, or at least, I mean, I see it as having the greatest potential.

A (65:31)

So tell me three things that you want to do in the next five years, which is going to change the needle.

B (65:37)

Oh, wow. I would like to write a paper on, from an evolutionary perspective on the illusion of. Of this competition for resources that can be solved with providing a psychology of safety to our next generation. That if we. If we take care of everyone, we're actually going to have use evolutionary models of promiscuous versus monogamous mating strategies to talk about how if you create conditions, environmental conditions that favor monogamy, then you actually have the power to reduce population in an ethical way, as opposed to the kinds of things that our companies are trying out on us these days. So that would be one. One thing I'd like to do. Chase. Neil, did you have a. Something you wanted to say about that or.

A (66:39)

No, no, I'm waiting to hear the other two.

B (66:42)

So am I. I'm like, okay, what am I going to think of in addition?

A (66:45)

Well, one is the interdependence educational program.

B (66:48)

Right, right, right. That would be a second one. The third thing I'd like to do is I'm actually still trying to decide because I invest. I had invested a lot of energy in trying to understand the causes of Alzheimer's, and I've discovered that. That it's probably a. An issue of getting too much aluminum in the brain, essentially. But it's not aluminum's fault. It's. It's something called malto, which is in so many of our products, that changes the permeability of the blood brain barrier. So it gets too much aluminum inside the brain. And then there are things that are remedies for that, like eating blackberries or berries that have. Have micronutrients that actually protect the brain against neurodegeneration. So so one idea I had was trying to, you know, alert people to that just basic issue and you know, so that people could have more agency in terms of voting, voting for certain FDA standards in our, in our, in our cosmetics, in our food, in our, you know, in our clothing. Perfumes, for example, have magnet magnites in them that actually, that actually redirect brain activity and, and in damaging ways. Right. So we're, we're talking about like, like something really important for the world to know, which is I don't think we have to have, you know, the, near the kind of ubiquitous dementia that you get if you live long enough in our, in our society. So that would be one thing I'm, I'm wrestling with. The other is I also done a lot of research on environmental, different environmental influences on the body and these would be the non ionizing radiation, the, the, the smart city, you know, bandwagon that everyone's going on is really dangerous, like hugely dangerous and very reversible. So, so I like to study things in the environment that are, that are fixable. And it turns out, it turns out that there's a, a lot of problems with. I thought all the cell phone research was, I really did. I'm working on a book right now, kind of like the one that, that you wrote and about, you know, two thirds of the way done with it where it's, it's a narrative, it's a story, it's a novel, it's a romance romantic story, but it's filled with little, little, you know, musings about the research and what it says, you know, opportunities to, to kind of let people know what's happening and how we might be able to, I don't know, protect ourselves. There's this incredible study with, in Japan about removing a cell phone tower. They didn't tell people it wasn't funded by any agency that, so that, so that there was no, there could be no confirmation bias and there, there would be no. Yeah, no, no one with a vested interest. They just measured people's health symptoms before they removed the tower and after. And there was this like 100% remission of almost like 20 out of 20. 20 out of 20 symptoms. The only one that, that had any problem was heart symptoms that was about 50% remission. So if people complained of heart palpitations or heart problems, they didn't recover completely. But everything else, tinnitus or skin problems, any kind of health problem you can think of, it was all of them just removing the cell phone tower in your backyard did the trick. And this was a non biased, quasi experimental study.

A (70:59)

I'd love to see that study. Maybe we can put it in the show notes when. Because I think it is fascinating. I mean a lot of people talk about that and again, I think the converse of that is all of us give out energy ourselves. Right. You know, if you look at the manner in which our heart sends out bioenergy, if you will, I mean it's five to six feet beyond our bodies, if you will. And I think that actually has an effect on other people. You know, you see people who have sort of this presence and it's because they're giving out this incredible energy to other people.

B (71:39)

I didn't know that you said five or six feet beyond. What do you measure that or.

A (71:43)

Yes, yes. There's a whole body of literature on heart rate variability and in fact in the new book there's a whole long discussion about that. I'll send you a PDF of that too, which.

B (71:56)

Okay, well I'm going to buy it. I mean I.

A (71:58)

You can buy it, but I want

B (72:00)

you to get your. Get us. That sounds silly now, but.

A (72:06)

No, no, but, no, no, I think you'll appreciate it, but yeah. And in fact, this is why as an example, if a group of women live together, their periods synchronize and the same as if you line up a group of metronomes together on a platform, they'll ultimately all synchronize as well. Which seems bizarre and incredible, but yeah.

B (72:30)

Oh my gosh.

A (72:31)

So there's a whole, in the book, there's a whole discussion about those facts and how our presence or how we carry ourselves or how our energy interacts with other people. So while on the one hand you pointed out these high frequencies are very powerful frequencies that are emitted, have a negative effect. But the reality is our presence and the bioenergy we carry with us can have a very positive or negative aspect to our lives.

B (73:04)

That's really interesting. You're making me think that it might be possible to buffer ourselves a little bit through human interaction from what's happening.

A (73:14)

Well, but that's the work of Robert Waldinger with the Harvard study, right? The 85 year study on human development or longevity or the work of the blue zones where we know that regardless people talk about diet, or primarily plant based diet or moderate exercise, et cetera, et cetera, are associated with longevity. But by far and away human connection and depth of relationships are the most powerful contributors to health and longevity out of all of those things. Anyway, nice chatting with you. And we'll see you soon. We'll talk about that later. And it's great to have you with me, and I look forward to interacting and maybe doing a study together.

B (74:07)

Sounds wonderful.

A (74:09)

Okay, take care. Thanks.

B (74:11)

Bye.

A (74:21)

Again. Thank you for being with us today. The into the Magic Shop podcast can be found where you find your most popular podcasts, or you can find us@intothemagicshop.com.