Marianne Williamson: Exploring the Transformative Power of Love and “The Mystic Jesus”

Summary

Into the Magic Shop Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Marianne Williamson: Exploring the Transformative Power of Love and “The Mystic Jesus”
Host: Dr. Jim Doughty
Release Date: August 21, 2024

In this enlightening episode of the Into the Magic Shop podcast, host Dr. Jim Doughty engages in a profound conversation with Marianne Williamson, a renowned author, speaker, spiritual leader, and recent Democratic presidential candidate. The discussion delves deep into Marianne's latest work, The Mystic Jesus, exploring the intersection of spirituality, psychology, and contemporary societal challenges.

1. Introduction and Guest Background

Dr. Doughty opens the episode by introducing Marianne Williamson, highlighting her extensive background as the spiritual leader of the Unity Church in Warren, Michigan, and her impactful literary contributions. Marianne's seminal work, A Return to Reflections on the Principles of A Course in Miracles (1992), not only became a New York Times bestseller but also established her as a spiritual advisor to Oprah Winfrey. Her newest book, The Mystic Jesus, reinterprets the role of Jesus within the teachings of A Course in Miracles, presenting a figure of radical love and an evolutionary elder brother rather than one confined by traditional religious dogma.

2. "The Mystic Jesus" and Its Connection to A Course in Miracles

Marianne introduces her book, emphasizing its aim to liberate Jesus from institutionalized religion's constraints and align him with universal spiritual truths. She explains that The Mystic Jesus portrays Jesus as a symbol of love and an embodiment of divine consciousness accessible to all.

Marianne Williamson [01:15]: "Jesus who represents radical love, who is an ever-present teacher, an evolutionary elder brother, and a savior from the fear-based twisted thinking that dominates so much of our world today."

3. Understanding A Course in Miracles: Concepts and Teachings

The conversation shifts to a comprehensive overview of A Course in Miracles (ACIM), described by Marianne as a self-study system of spiritual psychotherapy rather than a religion. She outlines ACIM's core philosophy: attaining inner peace by relinquishing fear-based thoughts in favor of a love-centered mindset.

Marianne Williamson [02:49]: "The goal of the course is the attainment of inner peace through the surrender relinquishment of a thought system based on fear and the acceptance instead of a thought system based on love."

Dr. Doughty highlights the revolutionary aspect of ACIM, noting its alignment with modern understandings of the brain and consciousness. Marianne elaborates on how ACIM transcends traditional religious boundaries, presenting Jesus not as a solitary figure but as part of a broader spiritual truth shared across various traditions.

4. The Power of Love vs. Fear in Modern Society

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the dichotomy between love and fear in contemporary life. Marianne critiques the materialistic and fear-driven narrative prevalent in Western society, arguing that true fulfillment stems from a love-based perception that recognizes our inherent oneness.

Marianne Williamson [22:31]: "The Course in Miracles says that enlightenment is a shift in self-identification and self-perception from body identification to spirit identification."

She contrasts this with the fear-based narrative that equates success with money, power, and external validation, leading to a pervasive sense of dissatisfaction even among the affluent.

5. Personal Anecdotes and Insights

Marianne shares personal stories that illustrate the impact of embracing a love-centered mindset. One such anecdote involves her experience with a friend who, despite acquiring an $18 million yacht, remains unfulfilled, highlighting the futility of seeking happiness through material possessions.

Marianne Williamson [26:44]: "If I was on one of those yachts, I'd be afraid of some whale coming around. Isn't that fascinating?"

Through these narratives, she underscores the limitations of material wealth in providing genuine peace and happiness, advocating instead for inner transformation.

6. Challenges in Letting Go and the Role of Forgiveness

The conversation delves into the psychological barriers that prevent individuals from adopting a love-based mindset. Marianne discusses how early teachings of separation and fear-conditioned thoughts make it difficult to embrace love and forgiveness fully.

Marianne Williamson [39:30]: "You were taught at a very young age that you were separate. And at a very young age, you were taught that by the time you're taught the thinking of the world at a very young age, natural thinking, which is loving thought, feels unnatural to you and unnatural."

She emphasizes the healing power of forgiveness and gratitude, suggesting that releasing past grievances is essential for personal and collective transformation.

7. Political Implications and Marianne's Presidential Run

Marianne bridges her spiritual insights with her political endeavors, discussing her presidential campaign as an extension of her mission to heal the soul of America. She criticizes the fear-driven politics epitomized by figures like Donald Trump and advocates for policies rooted in love and service.

Marianne Williamson [44:13]: "Jesus didn't come to the earth to say love yourself. He came to the earth to say love one another. It's a difference."

Marianne articulates her vision for a love-centric political landscape, where policies aim to uplift and unify rather than divide and fear.

8. Conclusion: Embracing Love and Service for Healing

As the episode draws to a close, Marianne reflects on the universal applicability of love as a transformative force. She calls for a collective shift towards viewing others as extensions of ourselves, fostering a society grounded in compassion and mutual support.

Marianne Williamson [54:26]: "That's the point. Exactly. That's the point."

Dr. Doughty and Marianne jointly reaffirm the podcast's central theme: the transformative power of love and compassion in overcoming individual and societal challenges.

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This episode of Into the Magic Shop offers a rich exploration of spirituality, psychology, and politics through the lens of Marianne Williamson's teachings and experiences. By intertwining personal anecdotes with profound spiritual insights, the conversation provides listeners with actionable wisdom on cultivating inner peace and fostering a love-based worldview.

Transcript

[Dr. Jim Doughty]

Hello, my name is Dr. Jim Doughty and I'm the host of the into the Magic Shop podcast where we explore the mysteries of the brain and the.

[Marianne Williamson]

Secrets of the heart.

[Dr. Jim Doughty]

My guest today is Marianne Williamson, who many of you know recently ran as a Democratic candidate for the President of the United States. Additionally, though she is also an author, speaker and spiritual leader, she began her career as the spiritual leader of the Church of Today, a unity church in Warren, Michigan. She's written several self help books, including A Return to Reflections on the Principles of A Course in miracles in 1992, which immediately became a New York Times bestseller and resulted in her becoming a spiritual advisor to Oprah Winfrey. Her most recent book, the Mystic Jesus, reveals the role of Jesus in the teachings of the Course in Miracles and she writes of a Jesus who transcends both glib imagery and outdated religious dogma.

[Marianne Williamson]

She writes not only of a historical.

[Dr. Jim Doughty]

Messiah, but of a spirit alive and in all of us today, one who represents radical love, who is an ever present teacher, an evolutionary elder brother, and a savior from the fear based twisted thinking that dominates so much of our world today. I hope you enjoy our conversation and thank you for listening.

[Jim Doughty]

Marianne, it's wonderful to have you here with me today. Obviously you have been running for President, which I know has kept you occupied deeply and intently. But today primarily we're going to talk about your new book and maybe you can show us the COVID since a friend of mine borrowed the book from me. The Mystic Jesus. Yes, a friend of mine borrowed the book from me and did not return it. So I spent about a half an hour running around my house trying to find it. And then I remembered I gave it to my friend and she has yet to return it. But regardless, I know this book has meant a great deal to you over the last several decades and maybe you can share with us one, sort of the history of the Course in Miracles and two, how it impacted you and what point point in your life that you connected with it.

[Marianne Williamson]

Well, I started reading the Course in Miracles when I was in my 20s and the course has been described as a system, a self study system of spiritual psychotherapy. It's not a religion, it's a psychological mind training based on universal spiritual themes. And the goal of the course is the attainment of inner peace through the surrender relinquishment of a thought system based on fear and the acceptance instead of a thought system based on love. Now the idea here is that there's one truth with a capital T and it's spoken in many different ways. And those different ways are encapsulated in all the great religious and spiritual traditions of the world. Now where your work and the work of those like you comes into play that's so fascinating is that today we're living at a time of this great revolution in terms of the brain, in terms of consciousness, of course, in miracles at one point says psychotherapy and religion at their peak are the same thing. So when the great avatars, Jesus, Moses and so forth lived, they didn't have words like psyche or psychotherapy, but when Jesus said my kingdom is within, that's what he's talking about. So again, along the line of so much of what you have written, we're living at a time of extraordinary change. The passing away of one world and hopefully the birth of another. A true time of historic phase transition. And I think a lot of things that are passing away. Many of us found when it came to organized institutional religions, people were rejecting the dogma, rejecting the doctrine, none of which is in the course. No doctrine, no dogma, it's not a religion. But my entire career has been the largest denomination in religious circles is what's called the unchurched. Many people who found that by rejecting their institutional religious backgrounds found they had thrown away the baby with the bathwater. So there's a tremendous hunger in the world. Even as religious institutions are crumbling, there's a spiritual rebirth. People want to know what are the gold nuggets of spiritual truth that are at the heart. So I have written about several. In my book, Tears to Triumph, I write about depression through the filter of Buddha and the teachings of Buddha. Depression through the filter of the wisdom of Moses and Jesus. So this is the first book I've written where a publisher actually came to me rather than my telling the publisher, I'd like to write this or I'd like to write that. Being asked, what would you think about writing a book about Jesus now? The Course in Miracles. Because what they said it was interesting. When the editor called me, he said, what we're hearing from booksellers is that people are requesting books about Jesus that are not specifically Christian. And I'm Jewish. I read the Course in Miracles. I'm a student of a Course in Miracles. And of course the course doesn't have, doesn't claim to have any kind of monopoly on truth. The truth is one spoken in many different ways. But even though the Course in Miracles is a Christ centered teaching word, the traditional Christian concept such as Christ are spoken of in non traditional psychotherapeutic ways. So When I started reading the course, when I first saw the book, it was like, oh, no, I saw that Christian language. Now, I had studied comparative religion in college, so I'd studied quite a bit of Christian theology. But this was not college. This was my personal life. And I was like, thinking, oh, you know, we don't read that. That's all my mother ever told me when I was growing up. We don't read that book, darling. We read the other one. But it turned out to be a blessing in my life that I had no prior perceptions of what those words meant. I knew a lot of people who had been raised Christian who had a lot more ambivalence. I didn't have any ambivalence. I was just learning new concepts. They had to unlearn old ones. So the Jesus as talked about in A Course in Miracles is like a Jesus liberated from the kind of musty smell of an old museum, an idea under glass somewhere, inherited and losing, with every generation of doctrine, losing more and more relevance to people's lives. People want the relevance of ancient techniques, which, of course, your books are all about, that we're all, in a sense, as I say, downloading the same kind of material right now. So the. The subtitle of the book is the Mind of Love. And of course the title of your book, Mind Magic, the Course in Miracles. And I think, even though. And we can talk about this because it's interesting, the Course in Miracles makes a distinction between magic and miracles, but that's just semantic when it comes to something such as the work that you do. So the Course in Miracles says in the presence of love, miracles, or what you would call magic in your book, occur naturally. That that's the natural flow of consciousness, that consciousness is intentional, that it is always creating and recreating the next best thing for all living beings. And the only thing that stops that flow is the nature of our thinking. So Jesus is seen as someone. And in the Course in Miracles it says specifically, he is not the only one. However, if he is your portal, as it were, you don't need any other. But that's what all the great religious teachings are, portals of entrance into a space that is beyond any words or traditions. And he is presented as a kind of evolutionary elder brother. He is one. The Course in Miracles says he's not the only one who has lived on the earth and completely actualized divine consciousness, as the Course in Miracles says he lived on earth but thought only the thoughts of heaven. Heaven being described as an awareness of our oneness, that is what heaven is. And the Course in Miracles says that it is as though when he achieved that state, having achieved it, he was then authorized by God, should we request. And if the request is not made, it would be a violation of our free will. That's fine, too. He has the authorization to enter into our thought system should we request it. And he says, my mind, joined with your mind, can shine away the ego. The Course in Miracles says that a miracle is a divine intercession from a thought system beyond our own. So the idea there is, you and I might be having a conversation and you're going through something with someone, or I'm going through someone, or let's say I'm going through. And you say, marianne, my friend, lighten up, give it up. And I might say, you're right, I just need to let it go. But it might be a situation where you say, give it up. And the trigger is too big, the wound is too deep, the childhood trauma is too great, and I need help getting over, you know, I need an extra push, as it were. And the Course in Miracles says Jesus is one way. Once again, nobody's claiming a monopoly on truth here, that should you request it, you are given a divine intercession from the trajectory of pain and suffering that you were in and released to a space of inner peace through an alteration, an adjustment of your attitude and your thinking. The Course in Miracles says that it's like the highest prayer is, I am willing to see this differently. And by calling Jesus into your mind, that's really what you're asking. Let me see this situation. Think about this situation the way you, who are already fully actualized see it and think about it.

[Jim Doughty]

Well, I think that you could argue many voices, one truth.

[Marianne Williamson]

This idea that, as you point out.

[Jim Doughty]

Repeatedly, there isn't one path and there are many individuals to help us along the path. I think that, of course, one of the challenges for all of us and also one of the negative aspects of institutionalized religion is the nature of ego and power, which unfortunately perverts the fundamental message of Jesus and other, if you will, elevated or enlightened beings.

[Marianne Williamson]

That's the attraction to the Jesus in this book and the Jesus of any gnostic or mystical tradition. And those Gnostic mystical traditions have been around since the early days of Christendom. I'm not talking here about something that has never been talked about before, the idea of the mystic or the esoteric Jesus. Yes. In terms of what you're saying, it's more than ego. I mean, great evil has been done in the name of organized institutional Christianity and other religions and the course in Miracles. Speaking of Jesus says some bitter idols have been made of him who came only to be brother to the world. And I think that that's the attraction that people feel towards the mystic Jesus. Like, I don't want the doctrine. I don't want the dogma. I don't want the ego of the institutional dance. I don't want any of that. But is there anything else there? And that's why I wrote the book a lot there.

[Jim Doughty]

So, actually, though, getting back to our original, or my original question, maybe you could give us a little bit of history about the Course in Miracles. And of course, I know it somewhat, but in terms of the woman who was used, if you want to call it, as a channel for this universal truth. And obviously, as you know, I mean, this did not happen overnight. This channeling or process took several years. And the woman did not actually indicate she was the author. She just, if you will, was the channel. And maybe you can talk about her, her background and sort of how this was released and actually the power it's had over so many people.

[Marianne Williamson]

Her name was Helen Schuchman, and she was a teacher. She was a professor in the clinical psychology department at Columbia University. This was 1965, and the head of the department was a man named Bill Thetford. And she went to him one day and she said, bill, I've been having very, very strange dreams, and I don't know what to do about it. I'm starting to hear a voice in my head. And he said, well, what is the voice saying? And she said, the voice in my head is saying, please take notes. This is a course in miracles. She called this, by the way. She would refer to this as a process of inner dictation. So when she said, bill, what should I do? He said, well, if I were you, I take notes. And they began a process that lasted from 1965 to 1971, where she would hear this voice. She would hear the words. She would write it down then in a kind of shorthand. Then he would write it out, type it out. I think she said one of the most depressing days of her life was when she heard the words Volume two. And so the book is divided into three volumes. It's volume one, which is the intellectual basis of the course, a very dense book. The volume two, which is the crux of the course, and that is meditation exercises, and that is 365 days of lessons. So the text explains the larger metaphysical, theological construct and the workbook actually takes you through the attitudinal changes. The Course in Miracles says enlightenment begins as abstract concept. And you know, we're all living at a time, you and I understand this. You know, every. Everybody's got it abstractly now. I mean, millions have read the books with, you know, but that the rubber meets the road when you're actually challenged in your own life. So the course in miracles, that is enlightenment begins as an abstract concept. Then you take a journey without distance from the head to the heart. Now the idea of Jesus and the story of Jesus in the New Testament and where it all becomes so fascinating and what this book is about is the idea that you can look at the stories and this is not only the story of Jesus, this is the story of Buddha, this is the story of Moses, any of the great. And you look and you hear the story and then you go, okay, what's the next deeper level? What's the deeper level? Like for instance in Buddhism, Siddhartha crossing, leaving the compound, his father having been told, you will have a great warrior son. No, I'm not. I talk about that in my book Tears to Triumph. Here it's the idea that the birth of Mary represents the Mary being the feminine within us. So Mary is awakened in the dark, in out of her sleep. All of us are awakened out of our sleep. An angel tells her to go up to the roof, which means start meditating, basically go up to the higher mind. An angel, which is defined in the course as the thought of God is going to tell you you were going to give birth to someone new. Now, from a psychometaphysical construct here, the new person you're giving birth to is yourself. You're re parented, fathered by God, mothered by your humanity. And that's what Mary, she was impregnated. It's a virgin birth in that it doesn't come from anywhere outside. It's a divine process within you. And the idea here is that we give birth to that newborn self. The course in miracle says you are born again in any moment when you do not take the past with you. You're not taking your grievances, your resentments, your anger. You're just letting this moment be the holy manger, being the holy instant when you were willing to open your heart in love. So it's an extraordinary psychotherapeutic description of these religious concepts that you go, oh, wow. For instance, another one is the Christ mind. So we've all heard, you know, the Carl Jung idea of the Collective unconscious, that if you go deep enough into your mind and deep enough into mind that there are mental images or archetypes that we all share. So the Christ mind takes it one step deeper that if you go deep enough into your mind and deep enough into mind, we're not just sharing images, we're sharing the same mind. Which is when you were telling me before we got on here that the gentleman from Transcendental Meditation said, consciousness is all there is. The course in miracles says God's love is all that is. And it's an idea that is consciousness. And instead if you have a problem with that, you have a problem with the fact you are an idea. Another image there that I love because you were talking about ego. And the way ego is defined in the course is the. The way the ancient Greeks defined it. The small separated self, the false belief that we're separated. So obviously on the level of the three dimensions, you're over there and I'm over here. But the course in miracles is on the level of consciousness, that is spirit, which is all that is. There's no place where I stop and you start. So the course uses a beautiful image that you're like a sunbeam to the sun, thinking you're separate from other sunbeams. You're like a wave in the ocean, thinking you're separate from other waves. And what's fascinating about that image of thinking I'm separate from other waves, if I'm a wave in the ocean and I think I'm separate from other waves, how could I not live in constant fear of annihilation, constant terror that a wave bigger than me is going to obliterate me? But if I realize I'm one with every other wave, the whole power of the ocean is mine. And it moves, I move, I move, it moves. And I can be at peace knowing I cannot be obliterated. And so it takes the entire story of Jesus in these Christian terms, and it's just. Hopefully people will feel in this particular book an illuminating understanding about what the esoteric or mystical interpretation of these terms and of the life of Jesus.

Well, I think it's interesting because in some ways Jesus is a metaphor for many other religious traditions, and many of these stories overlap. But I think there are a couple important aspects here. One is openness to changing your perception of how you see or view the world, and also the power of your mind to actually help you see this world. It's interesting, this metaphor of fear versus love, especially in modern society, because there are so many people who have if you will, bought into the narrative that we define in our culture that success equals money, power and position. But I argue this is a fear based narrative because people keep looking for external affirmation that they're okay versus a love based narrative, which one? You accept yourself as you are, but you also look at the world through the lens of the other and recognizing that the other is you. And I think this is really a important aspect of how we walk in this world. We're not separated, we're all one. And when you accept that and see the other as yourself, it makes it much easier to be nice, frankly.

The Course in Miracles says that enlightenment is a shift in self identification and self perception from body identification to spirit identification. So what you were talking about before, power and things and prestige in the world, that all comes from body identification. And the Course in Miracles says that the realm of the body, nothing in the realm of the body has deep enough roots to sustain you. But the Course in Miracles says that the mindset, which, as you said, of fear, so the course says love is all that is, and what is all encompassing can have no opposite. So when we're thinking without love, the course says we're actually not thinking at all. We're hallucinating. And so this vast material world is the Maya, or illusion that Buddha called it, that Einstein called it. It's a vast hallucination we're having. And we are looking for peace and happiness by changing the hallucination, changing the form, when really the. Our peace comes from knowing that's not even who we are. That's not the real thing that's going on here. It's a lesson, it's a suit of clothes. It gives us the opportunity to be learning the lessons that we're learning here. But if we identify with it and attach ourselves to it and think our, our happiness lies there, that's idolatry. And that, that will crash every time, those idols will crash. Because no matter even if you get it, I mean, the best example I know of that is a friend of mine. He has since passed. I knew him in Los Angeles many years. A very nice man, very wealthy man, but he hung out with wealthier people and he bought a house for $18 million. And he was saying to me one day, yeah, but it's nothing like David's house, nothing like Barry's house. You know what I'm saying? It's never enough in this world. So this idea of the mindset of fear, the Course in Miracles says a thought system based on fear has dominated the planet for millions of years as we know it. Although in reality this never happened at all because it's all hallucination. And that enlightenment, the new beginning, the salvation of the human race, lies in our relinquishing that and replacing it with a thought system of love. Once again, a word like salvation. I mean, we think of it as, you know, salvation. The only thing to be saved from is your own fear based thinking. The only thing to be saved from is your own insanity. You know, it's like when Gandhi said the problem with the world is that humanity is not in its right mind. Now, where something like the mystic Jesus would come in is when you were saying, as you talk about in your books, if we associate ourselves only with the external world, we can't be happy. Like duh, in a way, like all of them say that. The point is, how do you do that? And that's where the meditation comes in, the prayers come in, whatever your path is. Because you can't just think yourself out of your own rotten thinking because it's you versus you. And that's where of course the practices come in in your books and what Ruth taught you when you were a child and all of that.

You know, it's interesting you mentioned your friend who bought this 18 million dollar mansion. A woman invited me because I happen to be in Europe and she said, you know, our yacht is docked here, please come and we'd love to have share the afternoon with you and have lunch, et cetera, et cetera. And I said, sure. So I went down and I got on this, I think it was like 125 foot yacht, which was massive. And we went out and so we're out there and we're having lunch and she looks at me and there's this larger, a significantly larger yacht going by and she says, you know, I feel so bad, I have to apologize. You know, our new yacht's not going to be delivered in a year and it's that size and I know you'd be much happier there. And I'm like going, what planet are you on.

These days? If I was on one of those yachts, I'd be afraid of some whale coming around. Isn't that fascinating? What's happening with those whales?

Oh, it's orchids. Well, I think for those size yachts there's not much concern about that. I think you're talking about sailing vessels that are, you know, 20 to 50, 60ft. I think 125 foot yacht would be okay with that. Yeah, that's, that's Several tons, thousands of tons. That would be the last thing I would worry about, actually.

But now that woman will not find inner peace, just full her.

Well, but, you know, this is the problem in the Western world because the narrative is, if I only have this, I'll be whole. And of course, and this is the problem with many extraordinarily wealthy people is the more they get, the less they feel secure, the more they want. And it's constant comparison. And this need for attachment or craving to have more is a fundamental source of suffering. And it's interesting because, you know, you look in many other countries that are in fact less developed, and you see people who are extraordinarily happy simply by having enough food to eat, having security, having a roof over their heads, and they're ecstatic. And the sad part is so many people want to come to the west because of the false narrative that conspicuous consumption is the road to fulfillment.

Mother Teresa famously said when she was here, you are not the most successful nation. She said, I come from a far more successful nation. She said, in my country, where I come from, she said, a dying man will give away half of his one banana to another dying man, starving man. She said, in your country, people have so many bananas and won't give any away. But, you know, once again, keeping it on the level of the spiritual and the metaphysical, just knowing that, yeah, we all get that we're an overly materialistic society, we're an overly consumerist society, but actually dismantling all that through meditation, through prayer, through the actual spiritual practices seems to me where so many people are right now. And I also think that so much of the anxiety, so much of the depression really, that people are experiencing today has to do with this disconnection from the heart. You know, I've mentioned this to you before. I don't know if it was in one of your books or if it was when I heard you speaking or a conversation that we had. I've repeated it to so many people. When you told me about a kind of highway, correct me if I'm wrong, that you said that the neuroscientists have now discovered exists between the brain and the heart. And if I understood you correctly, you said they used to think that the brain was the intelligence center of the heart. And you told that story about the monks who laughed. Right, right. And that now they realize that it is the partnership between the brain and the heart that is the intelligence center of the body. So what I've told people when sharing that story is that this is True of civilization as well, that that is the intelligence center of civilization, and it's the intelligence center of an individual life. So if people are not taught that the purpose of your life is to love and to be loved, if people are not taught, you know, it's not enough to just say, the power doesn't lie, the satisfaction doesn't lie in getting a bigger half. If you just leave people there, it's like, what do they do with that? They still that of itself. But if you say the purpose of your life and peace and happiness are to be found in forgiveness, in being willing to open your heart to someone and to see that maybe they made a mistake, but you are at choice whether to focus on their guilt or their innocence, which doesn't mean you don't hold people accountable, but that you are responsible. We can't always control what happens to us, but the idea is that we are always responsible for who we choose to be in the space of what happens to us. So when you talked before about love or fear, recently you talked about my running for president when. Well, you know, there are so many things I go through in my life. I've always said my life works pretty well when I practice what I preach. This is a big one, to practice what I preach. If I allow my ego to be in control, man, there's anger, there's resentment, there's grievances. But my choice is, if you go there, Marianne, you will constrict. You'll be kind of pathetic. But more than that, you won't allow in the new. The Course in Miracles says time, and I'm sure this is in your books as well, that time itself is a construct of the mind. The past is only in your mind, the future is only in your mind. And that the course says, if you bring shadow figures from your past, what they did to me, what happened yesterday, then you're not allowing the miracle that would otherwise occur naturally, because miracles occur naturally as expressions of love. So the idea is, if my heart is open, then a miracle. There's always new beginnings if my heart is closed. And victimization is one way to close your heart. You know, I heard many years ago somebody talking about Jesus on the cross. Get off the cross. We need the wood. I've said to many people it was three days between the crucifixion and the resurrection. Not three years, not three decades. You have to go through the process, but you don't have to hold on to this longer. You know, I always say it's one thing to process your Feelings, it's another thing to spew them. It's one thing to honor your pain, it's another thing to indulge your pain. So the idea of the crucifixion is the, from a metaphysical perspective is that this is what the ego, fear based mind will do, always about guilt, what somebody else did to you, or anger at yourself, or what you did or didn't do, somebody's always guilty. That's the central core belief of the ego mind. Somebody's guilt. And the resurrection is that moment of forgiveness that love is all there is. This was a massive nightmare all of you had. And learning to forgive them and forgive yourself is your quote, unquote, salvation, quote, unquote, your resurrection and life will begin again at an even higher level. So the idea of understanding these old terms in a new way is like, wow, I think a tremendous gift. And I also think, Jim and I know that you'll agree with me on this. Within our community of the higher consciousness world, et cetera, there's always been an openness to Buddha, but there's been this weirdness about Jesus, which once again, I'm a Jew, so I, you know, but this wasn't a book we read and I mean, he's a Jew.

Pardon me, he was a Jew, so.

Well, yeah, absolutely. And so we just didn't. But so many people because of their upbringing. And so I think it will really, it's a real gift to the higher consciousness community, this reidentification and not reinterpretation really, but. But a look at the mystical and esoteric interpretation of Jesus that's really been around for thousands of years.

Well, I think at least my understanding of the book is that in some ways it liberates him from the dogma that has been attached to him.

Absolutely.

Versus looking at him in the context of underlying universal truths that apply to him, to Buddha and other, if you will, narratives about the power of who we are at our deepest level.

You know, a minute ago when we were talking about anxiety and depression for a moment, that really is the issue of who you are at the deepest level. If you're told you're your body, you're your resume, you're your mistakes, your successes, your failures, other people's opinion of you, you cannot be happy because all of that is identification with the mortal material world. Who we are at the deepest level is love. Why are you here? To be loved and to love and to be loved and to understand. You know, once again, going back to the imagery, when the three Kings came, they bowed before the Christ child, the Christ child didn't bow before the kings, in other words. And by the way, this whole idea of the inner child, the inner child is that in secular terms, when we are in that space, when we go into any situation knowing, give up your thoughts about what your agenda is for this meeting. Just open your heart, bless everybody there, send your love before you even went. See Jesus with his arms around them. Whatever the imagery your subconscious comes up with, and your only purpose here is to love. That's not just the source of your inner peace, it's the source of your literally miraculous power. It makes you a miracle worker.

Well, I think a lot of people don't appreciate that. And that's right. I mean, the challenge, I think, for all of us, and we discussed this, I think a little bit in a previous conversation was we don't appreciate how the baggage that we carry from our childhoods has a huge impact on the narrative of ourselves and how we see ourselves. But it also impacts every action, every decision, every relationship. And until you can connect with that and understand that and in mind, magic I talk about, all of us are manifesting. But you need to understand what you've already been manifesting. And without some insight, knowledge, or an external method of knowing or learning, you're sort of stuck.

Well, you know, it's interesting that there's a lot of talk about the baggage from our childhood. I think you and I are both old enough to know. Yeah, there's also baggage from your 20s and baggage from your 30s and baggage from your 40s and baggage from your 50s. You know, like, I was not traumatized as a child, I've been traumatized as an adult.

Well, perhaps a better narrative is just anything ongoing trauma. Yeah, anything prior to this moment.

Right. So where Jesus comes in, the mystical Jesus is. He says one of the exercise lessons in the course is give me your past so I can change your mind about it for you. And that idea is all the love you ever gave was real. All the love anyone else gave you was real and will exist forever. Nothing else existed. But once again, if you get that intellectually, it might be interesting. But then the idea of the mystic Jesus is actually that you can give it to him and he has the authorization to lift it from you. The idea of an altar, the Course in Miracles says the altar is in your mind. It's the higher mind. So what you place on the altar is altered. So if I place the relationship on the altar, that's my way of saying I only want to have higher thoughts. About it. I only want to remember the good this person did for me and the good I did for them, and I put it on the altar that it might be lifted above lower thoughts, and then it can begin again. And we're. Like you said, you're talking about magic. Whether you use the word magic or miracles, it's a difference and a change on a level that the mortal world does not even necessarily acknowledge.

So why do you think so many people suffer? And whether it's this particular path or many of the traditions that talk about many of these things and this higher consciousness, why do you think it's so hard for people to either let go, accept or forgive, or perhaps even have gratitude?

Well, the Course in Miracles says that you were taught at a very young age that you were separate. And at a very young age, you were taught that by the time you're taught the thinking of the world at a very young age, natural thinking, which is loving thought, feels unnatural to you and unnatural. I. E. Judgmental attack thoughts feels. That feels natural. So this idea of relinquishing a thought system based on fear, like I said earlier, it might be as simple as you saying, oh, Marianne, get over yourself. You know, just drop that. Come on. You're bigger than that. And you're right. Thanks for reminding me. But some of these are like what you said before, deep, deep ancestral. And, you know, the traumas of life. You know, one of the problems I have, Jim, because I've worked a lot, just as you've worked with serious illness, brain surgery. I've worked with serious psychological, emotional things that people have been through. And one of the problems that I have had with so many people's almost embellishment of glorification of things that do not represent the deeper traumas of life, is that I think it's made us less value and less available to understand what some people have really gone through, like the women in Afghanistan or the children in Gaza. I mean, we've made our own minor suffering too important, I think, and it's made us less available. I've seen this happen in the culture over the last, what, two or three decades. I always say, don't take yourself so seriously. Why? Because life is so serious. You can't really be available for how serious life is if you take yourself too seriously and even everything you and I are talking about. And once again, this is an issue in the higher consciousness community. Most of the higher consciousness world is a bunch of privileged white people.

Absolutely.

And so we really have to. When you start thinking of these Things in reincarnational terms or whatever. Did we win the birth lottery or what? And it just to go to the humility of this, this is the sort of deep zone. So what we have today, and this is where the course in miracles, we're talking about the difference between magic and miracles. You know, there's a lot of talk today, people talk about manifestation. Right. So the course in miracles, even though what you're talking about in your book is just a semantic difference in the course, there's an interesting distinction made between magic and miracles. The magic is where you use the power of the mind. You figured it out.

Wow.

I can manifest anything I want. And by the way, this is what your first book was about. Yeah. You manifest it and then what? So the course says, it describes it as magic is when you use the power of the mind to get what you want. Miracles is where you say to higher consciousness, love God as you understand him. What do you want? How can I. You know, sometimes some of this manifestation conversation is almost like you're using God as your errand boy. Ooh, I figured it out. And the way of the miraculous is a path of just waking up every morning. Where would you have me go? What would you have me do? What would you have me say and to whom? That I might be an instrument in this ever unfolding, intentional healing of the Son of God, which means the human race.

Well, I think in some ways this is one of the greatest sources of your own suffering is you look at yourself and you're attached to that suffering or what you believe has hurt you or whatever it is. And I think one of the greatest sources of healing and also a benefit to others is you look outward and it's not about you, it's about the other. How can I be of service? How can I be of benefit? And the reality is, through that lens, your physiology works its best because that's how we evolved as a species, to care for others, not only our offspring, but everyone.

You know, I've said often that I've learned in my life that 90% of the time the best advice I can give myself is, oh, Marianne, get over yourself. It's not about you. And this is another thing, Jim. I feel that in the higher consciousness community, in some ways we have contributed to this over. You know, Jesus didn't come to the earth to say love yourself. He came to the earth to say love one another. It's a difference.

Oh, no. And sadly, many. And it's not just Christians, but organized religion is very ego focused. And it's to pat yourself on the back nominally for thinking you're doing the right thing instead of not even thinking about you per se, but thinking about how can I be of service? Because that's why we're here. How can I contribute to this, if you will, single consciousness or this narrative of oneness. You know, one of the quotes I always say is the longest distance for most of us is the distance from our head to our heart.

Well, the Course in Miracles actually uses that expression when it says that the journey of enlightenment is a journey without. Well, actually, those. I think you heard that, that quote from the course, A journey without distance from the head to the heart. And Journey without Distance is the title of Bob Skutch's book about the writing of the Course in Miracles, because that is the longest distance. You know, you to know this stuff intellectually. If it was as simple as that, I would have been an enlightened master.

Probably all of us would have been so new.

Hall.

Well, how do you. Maybe as we are ready out of time, maybe you can comment on, if you will, the lessons learned through this process you've been through, which I know has been stressful, has had its positive aspects, negative aspects. And where do you think this leaves us? You. And what are your thoughts on the present situation, politically?

You know, the Course in Miracles talks about God's plan for the teachers of God. Every cell in the body. You would know more about this than I. Every cell in the body is programmed through a kind of natural intelligence to go to different parts of the body. One cell is assigned to the pancreas, one cell is assigned to the brain. One cell is assigned to the blood or whatever, in order to then collaborate with other cells in order to serve the higher functioning of the organ and the organism of which they're part. So every once in a while, a cell disconnects from its natural intelligence, therefore from its collaborative function, goes off to do its own thing, and it seeks other cells that are also similarly malformed in their intention. And we, of course, call that a malignancy. So the idea here is that that's what's happened to the human race. We have been infected by a malignant thought form. And that thought form is, it's all about me. So when you look at a gps, what the Course in Miracles says is God has an answer to every problem the moment the problem occurs. Like a gps, if you've taken a wrong term, the GPS will automatically recalibrate. So the human race has taken a wrong turn. And in many ways, the United States has taken a wrong turn. So the course in miracles, it's like the image of the immune system, right? Sometimes cells go wrong. The immune system is when the cells are sent out to the wound or to the trauma. So the course in miracles says in human terms, this is the plan for the teachers of God. You go be a brain surgeon, you go be a writer, you go be a healer, you go be an artist, you go be a business person, you go be. You be in North America, you be in Africa that we' assigned depending on our own lessons to be learned, our own talents, our own intelligence and so forth. So the idea is that we are sent into whatever area in order to be the presence of the alternative. So I have felt, obviously, I felt that I have work to do and service that I can do in the field of personal transformation. But I began to feel that I could be of service given my experience, given my understanding. In this field of politics, you're not called to shed the light in the area of the light. You're called to shed the light in the area of the darkness. What I saw in politics and now I've had quite a bit of experience with all that is sad in that I see in the American people a readiness to begin a new chapter. The American people are not stupid and we're decent. There's an intelligence and a decency and a nobility ready to be called on. But I also experienced that the machinery of what I call the political media industrial complex is very corrupt. Now you ask me, where are we now? Because of my own experience, I saw things and experienced things that should make no American happy. But I also know, and this has to do with everything you and I have talked about at times, get over yourself now. It's time. In my own journey and the political journey in the United States, the primaries, all I stood for, even standing for an open primary, as my brother said to me, and it meant a lot to me when he said it. He said, marianne, that was yesterday's fight. There's something much bigger now. The primaries are over. And what's important now in my mind and in the mind of millions of Americans is defeating the policies of Donald Trump and the attitudes of Donald Trump and the perspective on our democracy of Donald Trump and his attraction to authoritarian ways of being. I think that choosing Tim Walz as a vice presidential pick was a very good choice. You know, Joel Stein says things I like. Cornel west says things I like. Bobby Kennedy says things I like. And for me, the issue now, given that we have 90 days left from the time you and I are talking. A little bit less than that, actually, is for me to keep my eye on the ball. What's the. You know, were there many battles within a larger war? And keep your eye on the prize. And the prize for me, I'm not saying it should be for other people. For me, is making sure that Donald Trump does not enter the White House again. So I will, in whatever way I can, help to inspire people, really, no matter who they're voting for, to continue to have hope. Listen, after what I've been through, if anybody has a right within the world of the material, mortal reality to say, oh, to hell with it all, and I don't, because I know American history, and I know that justice has ultimately prevailed, whether it was abolition or women's suffrage or the civil rights movement or the establishment of organized labor. That was the whole message of my campaign. It's our turn now. And I stand strong and hopefully within myself and in whatever way I can be of service. Meanwhile, you know, I had written a book called Healing the Soul of America. I read about Gandhi. I read about the philosophy of nonviolence. I read about Gandhi's idea that there is within every man, woman, and child an inner light, which is the Buddha mind, the Christ mind, whatever you want to call it. And he said that it heals not only all personal relationships, but all political and economic and social relationships as well. Then Martin Luther King went to India, studied those principles, brought them back to the struggle for civil rights in the 1960s. That fascinates me. Martin Luther King said, in order to change the world, we must have external changes in our circumstances and internal shifts in our souls. So, for me, it's easy to go from running to president to talking about the mystic Jesus, because, really, to be honest, it's. It's all the same conversation. How can both, in our inner experience as well as our outer experience, become vessels and vehicles of love? How can we and how we act be vehicles of love? And how can public policy be a vehicle of love? Well, I think we're here.

Yeah. No, I think the reality is, unfortunately, I think Donald Trump has preached the fear narrative and has created a lot of, if you will, boogeyman or bogeyman to promote himself. And unfortunately, a subset of people out of fear go to this very base level. But I think everyone yearns to believe actually that the world's a good place, that the United States is a good place, that we are here to be of service, to help others. It's not a distinction of what I want. It's how can we create a narrative that allows everyone in America to flourish as human beings?

That's the point.

Exactly.

That's the point.

That's the point. Well, Marianne, it's always such a pleasure to hang out with you, and thank you again for taking the time. I'm sorry about my mic being over here, but fortunately, we fixed it turned out good.

So I'm sorry I can't make you Surgeon General, but we'll continue to serve in the ways that we can serve. And there's no big or small in the land of trying to be more loving. So thank you. Thank you, Joe. Thank you for having me.

Well, listen, my dear. Take care. Always a pleasure.

Thank you, darling.

And we will be in touch. Okay.

Thank you.

Again.

[Dr. Jim Doughty]

Thank you for being with us today. The into the Magic Shop podcast can be found where you find your most popular podcasts, or you can find us at into the magicshop.

[Marianne Williamson]

Com.