Invest Like the Best, EP.447: Wolfgang Hammer - The Power of Story

Release Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Patrick O’Shaughnessy
Guest: Wolfgang Hammer

Episode Overview

Patrick O’Shaughnessy speaks with film producer and executive Wolfgang Hammer. Wolfgang shares his deep experience in storytelling—from producing hits like House of Cards and leading major film studios, to guiding founders and CEOs in discovering and communicating the core stories of their companies. The discussion explores why story matters, how to find your own or your company's story, and the layers and techniques that make stories resonate. This episode serves as a manual for leaders seeking to clarify purpose, motivate teams, and powerfully communicate what distinguishes them.

Key Topics & Insights

The Role of Story in Leadership and Business

• Foundation of Story:
  Wolfgang explains that most founders and even established businesses often lose touch with the deep reason for their existence—their story becomes muddled or unconscious, and regaining it is transformative for leadership.

  • “With a founder, they're simply trying to find access to some buried truth that they haven't looked for in the right way that's in there.” (06:01 – Wolfgang Hammer)

• Three Layers of Story:

  1. External (What): Mechanics, product, function.
  2. Emotional (Personal Why): Why does it matter to the founder or team?
  3. Philosophical (Abstract Why): What worldview or core belief underpins the work?
  • “You want to hit each one of them.” (08:40 – Wolfgang Hammer)

Practical Application

• Self-Inquiry for Leaders:
  • What are we doing? (External)
  • Why am I doing this? (Emotional/Personal)
  • How should the world be? (Philosophical)
  • “The questions are something like, how should the world be? In a general sense... why am I doing this? ...what are we doing about it?” (09:43 – Patrick and Wolfgang)

The Familiar vs. The New in Storytelling

• Misconception:
  Many founders disproportionately emphasize novel features. Instead, effective stories are “20% new and 80% familiar.”
  • “With storytelling especially... the new is really just the obvious uncovered through systematic trial and error over a certain period of time.” (13:11 – Wolfgang)
• Examples:
  General principle from designer Raymond Loewy: humans can only accept so much novelty at once. Even in innovative business or art, rooting newness in familiarity is what allows ideas to land.

Customer Perspective & Communication

• Story Begins with the Audience:
  The best communicators and sellers deeply understand their target’s present worldview, needs, and psychology.
  • “The right thing...for the founder is to spend most of their time understanding the story of the customer as it currently exists versus how it should be, and then build off of that.” (16:07 – Patrick)
  • “That's exactly right.” (16:21 – Wolfgang)
• Human before Professional:
  The CEO or founder’s job is not just strategic but “master communicator”—adjusting the emotional and philosophical content for each audience, ensuring resonance.

Lessons from Film & Leadership

• Filmmakers vs. CEOs:
  Both roles require ultimate responsibility and repeated willingness to risk failure—a process of temporary organizations (movies/projects) that live and die by vision and courage.

  • “All the great filmmakers have a very particular worldview...and some of the CEOs I've gotten to know are artists, in some ways.” (18:36 – Wolfgang)

• Communicating Across Worlds:
  Success comes from alternating language and worldview between creative, business, and operational domains, while maintaining philosophical clarity.

Anatomy of a Great Story

• Character Arc:
  Visionary stories—both in business and art—chart a hero moving from one extreme to another, overcoming escalating obstacles, experiencing transformation or revelation.

  • “Stories are either desires fulfilled or anxieties purged.” (23:15 – Wolfgang quoting Robert Towne)
  • “Character starting at an extreme point, going to an extreme point that they cannot imagine at the beginning, but somehow deep down know...then situations arranged in such a way that the original intent faces bigger and bigger versions of a barrier that is then resolved at the very end.” (26:21 – Wolfgang)

• Underdog Appeal:
  Everyone identifies as an underdog; this narrative of rising against obstacles is universally compelling.

• Transformation vs. Epiphany:
  Traditional stories stress transformation, but sometimes, a more subtle “Joycean epiphany”—a flash of understanding—can suffice.

Status & Power Dynamics

• Everything is about Status:
  Every interaction is a play of status and accepted superiority—narratives work by exploring and shifting these dynamics.
  • “Every scene is about status. There's a sort of story about...when he matched status, he will get whatever he asked for.” (31:05 – Wolfgang)
• Definition:
  “It's a sense of accepted superiority vis a vis another, whether it's physical, societal or moral.” (31:40 – Wolfgang)

Risk, Failure & Boldness

• Calculated Risk:
  Success in both creativity and business means embracing calculated risk. American culture offers an edge in risk tolerance and forgiveness for failure.
  • “Even just being around people who have a more benevolent attitude towards failure can be extremely helpful...” (34:26 – Wolfgang)
• Fear of One’s Own Potential:
  The greatest fear is often of one’s own potential and the “bigness” of what one could do if fully unleashed.
  • “Fear is present, but it’s a fear of potential, of all that could be.” (36:20 – Wolfgang)

The Ultimate Concerns of Stories

• Metaphors for Existence:
  Every story is ultimately about existential concerns: Am I worthy of love? Is it safe to die?

  • “Storytelling is so teleological and has as its concern a form of salvation. Not the form of salvation, a form of salvation. Maybe the answer to the question, am I worthy of love? The answer is yes, very often comes back to that...And then very often, is it safe to die? And the answer is, in most cases, yes.” (39:45 – Wolfgang)

• Letting Go, and Self-Acceptance:
  Drawing on spiritual teachers, Wolfgang describes the value of holding your beliefs lightly and letting ultimate truths surface metaphorically rather than directly.

Notable Quotes

• On Story Structure:
  “Story works in three layers. One, there's the external mechanics…a subjective layer of why is this series of events important to me...and then a philosophical layer.” (07:10 – Wolfgang Hammer)

• On Communication:
  “All society is communication…knowing to context switch between [buckets] and understanding the language games that each one of these buckets plays, but never forgetting the core principles underneath...” (20:09 – Wolfgang Hammer)

• On Leadership and Responsibility:
  “I come back to this ability and willingness to take ultimate responsibility, which is really not what most people want to do at all.” (18:36 – Wolfgang Hammer)

• On Status:
  “When he overplayed his status, he would be hated. When he underplayed his status, he wouldn't get what he wanted...When he matched status, he will get whatever he asked for.” (31:05 – Wolfgang Hammer)

• On Fear and Potential:
  “There is a fear of the bigness of the world. That fear ... is also reflected in the inner world. So much of story is...an inner transformation…” (35:39 – Wolfgang Hammer)

• On Story’s Purpose:
  “It’s a technology...to communicate an ultimate concern...so that the individual can understand it on an emotional, personal level...storytelling is so teleological and has as its concern a form of salvation.” (39:45 – Wolfgang Hammer)

Memorable Moments & Practical Exercises

• The "Terrifying Story" Question (35:20):
  Wolfgang asks: “What is the version of your story that is so big that it terrifies you?” An exercise for leaders/founders to confront their own biggest ambitions and fears, drawing out buried potential.
• Matching Status (31:05):
  Anecdote about navigating status appropriately in communication and negotiation.
• Metaphor over Explanation (40:51):
  Importance of using metaphor (“couch all these absolute truths revealed in a subjective way in metaphors...”) rather than direct exposition.

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------| | 04:23 | Introduction of Wolfgang Hammer | | 06:01 | The search for self-knowledge in founders | | 07:10 | The three layers of story | | 09:22 | Applying story layers to business | | 13:11 | The balance between novelty and familiarity | | 16:21 | Understanding your customer's story | | 18:36 | Parallels between CEOs and filmmakers | | 21:38 | Iconic characters and resilience | | 23:15 | Stories as “desires fulfilled or anxieties purged” | | 26:21 | What makes a great story | | 28:24 | Hardship, originality, transformation | | 31:05 | Status, power dynamics | | 34:26 | Risk and attitude toward failure | | 35:20 | The “terrifying story” question | | 37:04 | Inner conflict and leadership | | 39:45 | Grand unified theory of story/ultimate concerns| | 40:51 | Teaching through metaphor | | 42:08 | “Kindest thing” closing |

Tone & Style

Wolfgang Hammer brings a thoughtful, philosophical, and literary tone, often referencing mythology, classic thinkers, and filmmaking. The conversation oscillates naturally from the abstract (“Am I worthy of love?”) to the actionable (“Ask yourself, what are we doing? Why?”), always aiming to inspire leaders to dig deeper for clarity and meaning beneath surface-level business narratives.

Key Takeaways for Listeners

• Powerful stories, whether in art or business, have layered meaning: what you do, why you do it personally, and the philosophical stance you take against the world’s prevailing views.
• Leaders and founders should not shy away from confronting their ultimate potential—and their deepest fears.
• The best way to communicate change or a new idea is to anchor it deeply in familiar context, then let newness emerge incrementally.
• Every interaction, negotiation, and message involves status—success comes from matching and appropriately calibrating it.
• Storytelling is not just craft; it’s a vehicle for transmitting the most existential truths and building organizations around shared meaning.

For further resources, transcript, and related podcasts, visit joincolossus.com.