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- [00:00]
A
Show up Just keep showing up show up if you're shaking show up when you're tired show up when you think you're done.
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B
Welcome to Is this Really Legal? I'm your host, Liz Oyer, and I have a really special guest this week, so I'm going to introduce her with no further ado. Dani Benske is an artist, advocate, and educator. You may know her as a prominent advocate for justice for the survivors of abuse by Jeffrey Epstein. Dani is one of those survivors, but that is only part of her story. Dani hails from the dance world, and her justice advocacy work is fueled by her work teaching young performers. She strives to create more holistic and safe environments around dance education. Danny, I am so grateful and excited to have you here. Thank you for joining me.
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A
Thank you so much for having me on. Really appreciate it.
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B
So, Danny, you testified last week in Congress at the confirmation hearing of Todd Blanche, who has been nominated to be the next Attorney General of the United States. Dates. You testified about your experience as a victim of abuse by Jeffrey Epstein. You testified about your revictimization when your name was repeatedly exposed as part of the release of the Epstein files. And you testified about your desire to meet with the leadership of the Justice Department as part of your efforts to pursue justice. I was lucky enough to be seated just down the table from you and to hear your incredibly brave and eloquent testimony in person. I just want to know, did you. Do you feel like you were heard? Do you feel like the members of Congress who were listening actually heard you?
- [01:38]
A
Some. You know, I just. I think time will tell because I think Tillis kind of threw the gauntlet down, right? So Thom Tillis kind of said, okay, this is. Let's put your money where your mouth is to Todd Blanche, and are you going to meet with these survivors? And so I do. My question for Tillis is, what did he want the takeaway from the meeting to be? Did he want it to be a check the box meeting, or was he really looking for survivors to be heard? And I'd like to think that he was hoping for survivors to be heard and that he was hoping for us to really be able to seek that accountability and get that accountability that we've been looking for for so long. And so I think time will tell because if he votes yes on this, then we know that it's a bit performative and it's a tick the box moment. If he votes no with Cornyn, I think that would be, you know, a really huge act of. I don't even want to say good faith. I think it's bigger than that. I think it would be a moment where we are seeing that survivor voices are being heard, but also that they understand the capacity that this case holds. I think it's one of the largest sex trafficking rings that we've ever seen to date in this country. You know, we often say There are over 12,000 victims, there are 6 million files. There is one perpetrator who died in jail and one perpetrator who has just moved to a lower security penitentiary by Todd Blanche. And that's the only person that Todd Blanche has met with.
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B
Let me ask you about the meeting with Todd Blanche. That's something that you had been asking for for over a year, and you finally got the meeting. And it sounds like your hopes for that meeting didn't exactly match the reality of it. So I'm wondering, can you sort in your ideal world, what would this meeting have looked like and how did that compare to the reality of what you got after? As you mentioned, Thom Tillis essentially instructed Blanche to meet with you.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah, I mean, the meeting itself was very disorienting. I have to say. I feel like I'm still reliving it in my mind over and over. Because survivors, especially that group of survivors, we go into meetings with politicians all the time. We are always asking for. Right now we have quite a bit of advocacy on the table. Virginia's law, which would change statute of limitations. We're talking about this new private right of action, the Redact Act. So we are very used to going into meetings and piggybacking off of each other. And like, if Amanda and Sky, which are Virginia Giuffre's family members, if I know that they're gonna have a topic and talk about that topic, I know that I can then move around it and move to the next topic. So there were some real things that we went in with a lot of clarity that we wanted answered. We wanted why Ghislaine Maxwell was moved. We wanted understand why no investigative leads are being followed. We wanted to know why the redactions were what they were. And especially now that we know that there was a FOIA request put in and we know that they were scrubbing the files, FBI was scrubbing the files, and that they were. They were told to do so. Right. So we had very specific things that we were going in with. And generally we are so good at throwing the ball. And instead it was just he deflected. He. Every time we would ask a question, it would be like, you were running headfirst into a brick wall and hoping the door would open and instead being thrown back five feet because it was just at every turn. I never said that. And then you're arguing the semantics of what you said or what you didn't say, and we're like, we've seen you on the news. We've seen these clips. It was on this. On this day, right? And he just didn't, like, at every turn. It was just getting into this, like, granular detail, and we were just hoping to stay very high level about it. We wanted to say, like, okay, we're getting in this way. Let's redirect it. Let's talk about this other topic instead. And then he would pull us back into that same level of, well, you guys just, you know, you don't understand. You have to go to the FBI. You have to start over. So it's just. It was depressing and exhausting. And, you know, you've heard the term from us a lot, saying that we felt really gaslit. And it was another moment of, I believe, revictimization. I left that meeting. I felt shell shocked. I got into a van with Amanda and Sky and Liz Stein, and just my heart started racing, and my whole chest locked up and got tight, which I experienced a lot of ptsd. So sometimes I'm like, okay, just breathe through this. And this was a moment where my chest locked up and I just started to sob because I was like, he did what he was supposed to do in terms of what Tillis asked. And the meeting was so re. Traumatizing in so many ways, because you just feel like you're, you know, in an abusive relationship in a way, because he kept talking in circles. And so I remember Amanda and Sky, you know, kind of pulled me to the side, and sky had shown me a video of Virginia, which, you know, we really fuel each other's fight, all of us, as a collective. And that meant a lot. And Amanda looked at me and said, you know, don't let. Don't you. Like you testified this morning, you cannot let this moment take away from what you did this morning. And, you know, it's those moments where you see people supporting you and pulling you up, and that is the beauty of this community. And I think that's why our fight is so strong, because we do have that level of support. But the meeting was just. I mean, it was an abomination.
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B
I am so sorry that that happened to you.
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A
Thank you.
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B
One thing that I have thought a lot about, about the justice system Because I've been working in it as a lawyer for, you know, my whole career is this idea that people really feel like the justice system is fair or unfair based on how they are treated by the people who represent the justice system. So, like, I was a public defender for 10 years, and I felt like the way I treated my clients and the way I advocated on their behalf in court really made all the difference in terms of whether they felt like the outcome was fair. At the end of the day, it might not be the outcome they wanted, but if I treated them with that dignity that they deserved and advocated zealously on their behalf, they might come away from that feeling like the justice system treated them fairly, even if it wasn't the outcome they wanted. But I think that not all lawyers and not all people who work in the justice system really understand the importance of that. It kind of seems like a little bit clinical, maybe to the professionals. It's like that doctor who, you know, rushes through your appointment and doesn't answer your questions and treats you brusquely, and then you walk out of there feeling like what just happened, I don't really understand. So I'm wondering, as somebody who has now interacted with people at even the highest levels of the justice system, what advice would you give to those of us who are lawyers who are actually carrying out the important functions of the justice system and are in the positions to do justice on behalf of people like you and your survivor sisters?
- [08:56]
A
That's such a great question. I mean, I think back to 2008, actually, when I went to the FBI for the first time. I was subpoenaed, and I was terrified, and I sat with FBI agents and nobody told me what my rights were. Nobody told me that I wasn't on trial, that I wasn't the one that was going to be, you know, put behind bars. Because for so long, you know, Jeffrey had said to me while I was there that I would be brought up on prostitution charges once I turned 18. So you're talking to a very, very scared young person. Right. And I didn't have a victims rights advocate. And I feel like that is something that if I could say anything about going back, it's just how to treat victims, especially when they are so fearful, getting the story more than once, making sure. I talked to a prosecutor recently who said, I tell everybody that works with me to try to get the story three to five times to get the real story right. You're never going to get it on the first try. So I felt very much Like, I was on my own, no support system. And now we do have a support system within this community, but through this process, communication is everything, right? Communication. Give me the facts. Give me what this really is. Talk to me straightforward, but talk to me as an equal. Don't talk to me like I'm the thorn in your side, which is exactly like Todd Blanche minimized what we've been through. We're talking about five administrations, 30 years of trauma, 30 years of people coming forward, Right? This is not just a drop in the bucket thing. And it feels like, well, you have a survivor problem, right? You have, like. It's this thing about, like, just get rid of them. And that's the way it consistently feel when it's like, meanwhile, you're protecting perpetrators, you're scrubbing perpetrators names from the files, and you're outing all of our information for everybody to see. And you're basically like, oh, well. It's not an oh, well moment, you know, just to be. We just expect to be handled with. It's not even with care, like, handled with baseline humanity. We saw that moment with. With Pam Bondi where she just didn't even turn around and acknowledge survivors. And that is, in a nutshell, in an image like that is how we have been handled by the DOJ entirely. This whole time.
- [11:09]
B
You, in all of these interactions, are reliving a really traumatic chapter in your life. I mean, every time you go out there and tell the story again, every time you do an interview, every time you testify, every time you meet with a government official or a politician, you are reliving the most traumatic chapter in your life. What kind of toll does that take on you? And what gives you the strength to keep going rather than just trying to bury it in the past and leave it behind?
- [11:43]
A
Well, I think I did try to bury it for a lot of years, but I often say that it feels like we were branded by Epstein. You know, he would say, you'll never escape the, like, the power and the wealth, and, like, powerful people will always prevail. Like, he ingrained a lot of that in a lot of, if not all of us. And so, you know, I do think that. Yeah, just that. Yeah. Can you give it to me one more time? I'm so sorry. Can you ask me one more time?
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B
No, no, you're great. I'm just wondering how you find the strength to keep reliving that trauma over and over again. I mean, it must take a new toll, like open a fresh wound every single time you talk about it.
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A
Yeah, it really, it does. I mean, there's a lot of PTSD that many of us live with. And I think so much of the strength and so much of how we do keep going is rooted in our survivor sisterhood. I thought that I lived in a silo, and for a lot of us, I think before we met each other, we felt like, well, this must have only happened to me, right? Or maybe I got this worse, or maybe I got it wrong. And then you start to see, oh, this happened to you too, right? And then you start to see, outside of the Epstein and Maxwell spirit, how many survivors there are of in general. Like, we know that the number right now is one in three women. And honestly, I think that's kind of low because we're starting to see more and more people come forward. And so when you start to see how broad this is and how many people are affected by sexual trauma and sexual abuse, you start to see and think, like, I can't stand silent. And for me, you know, you said it so beautifully in the beginning, that I am a dance educator, and I work with kids that were my or are my age when I was abused. And so I want to make sure that they are safe. I want to make sure that they're not being groomed, that they don't fall into these pitfalls and patterns. And so the only way to make it safer is by really getting to the core of it and making sure that those power dynamics, the vulnerability versus power, are starting to level a little bit more. And you can only do that by being very vocal about it and getting out there. And, you know, as sky said, it's so eloquently so many times, too, turning pain into purpose. And so using the past trauma, using that ptsd, using that feeling of being branded for life by it, and knowing that for me, my past is my past, but knowing that you can change the path for someone else is really, really important and keeps the fight alive.
- [14:21]
B
Can I ask you if it's not too personal, just in terms of how we talk about this issue. You and your fellow survivors are often referred to as Epstein victims or Epstein survivors. How does that feel, having his name attached to yours? I mean, does that bother you? Does that make you feel like you're permanently branded in some way with the. With what he did to you?
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A
Yes. I mean, the fact that it really is that shifting. Shifting the blame thing, shifting the accountability, right, where instead of just being survivors of this horrible sex trafficking ring, you're carrying his name with us all the time. And we were Actually, recently at the World Without Exploitation conference, there were a few of us there, and they. One of the other survivors from other abuse came up and said, you know what? Like, we're done with this Epstein name. We're calling you guys the golden warriors now. And it was just such a weight. Like, I just didn't even realize that it sits. You know, it's one of those, right? It sits on your chest and it sits heavy with you, and you don't realize how heavy it sits until it's lifted for just a brief moment, and you're like, oh, that's what that feels like. All of a sudden, you're like, I don't have to carry him with me everywhere I go. Wow, that would be amazing. It's bad enough seeing his face everywhere all the time, so hopefully at some point, maybe we can lose that name. I love the Golden Warriors. Sky and I and Amanda, we joke about being the Mighty Ducks because we're the Flying V. You know, they're like, there are different things that we're like, we're throwing around. But, yeah, I mean, it always comes back to where the blame is being placed right now in sex trafficking. And it's always on, you know, the abused instead of the abuser. And so we need to see a cultural shift, which I think we're starting to see, you know, with Andrew Tate and with these other cases that we're starting to see a lot more accountability. And so that's exciting. But it's so wild to me that, like, we're seeing a culture shift before we're seeing any accountability in our government, which is mind blowing.
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B
Well, when we see that shift really completed, the golden warriors are going to have a lot of credit to take for that, for that movement. I love that name as well. I mean, there are a lot of powerful people, a lot of powerful men in particular, who really would have preferred if you and your fellow survivors chosen to remain nameless and faceless. It's inconvenient for a lot of people that you've decided to come forward and advocate for justice. And a lot of these are really powerful people. I mean, you've talked about Epstein's wealth and power, and there are a lot of people in that orbit who are equally wealthy and powerful. Does that. Do you ever feel afraid? I mean, you never sound afraid. You always sound brave and fearless.
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A
Thank you for saying that. Because, I mean, I shake, like, the whole time that I'm in dc, my body physically shakes. I am always fearful. And I actually was thinking, even yesterday, I Like I just went and tried to like, you know, sit for a moment because lately it's just been a lot of input all the time. And I realized that I'm always looking over my shoulder. I am always thinking that the worst is gonna happen. Like my brain jumps to like A through Z plans about, you know, I have a son and I'm thinking like, okay, well when he gets hit by a car, here's what we're gonna do. And it's like, that's not logical, not how we always normally think. But so many of worst case scenarios happen more than not that it feels like the probability of worst case scenario is a lot greater. And so I just, I am always feeling, yeah, there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear. And especially the more public you become, you know, getting on planes, getting on any of that, you sort of are always looking over your shoulder to make sure that you're gonna be okay. Your spidey senses are up, as I like to say. So yeah, it's not an, it's not an easy thing, that's for sure. But it's a thing that really needs to happen. You know, you have to stay the course and you have to keep pushing because otherwise what is the fight for, you know, And I ask myself that a lot, like, what are our goals in this? And it is absolutely to put perpetrators behind bars, change the power dynamics and make sure that those, you know, that need to see accountability do.
- [18:50]
B
You mentioned your son, and I know you draw some inspiration from him. Can you talk about what kind of motivation he provides you? Like being a mom, raising a son in this world, how does that affect the decisions that you make and the positions that you take and the risks that you take?
- [19:11]
A
Yeah, I think you have to do what you preach a little bit. Right. And I think it's. It's my son, who's only 6, so he's young. But my students, I've had many students that I've seen grow up to be incredible people. And I always think to myself, what would I have them do if they came to me and told me about these horrific stories? You would say if it happened in your school, you would say, go to your administration, talk to your administration. And so I think there is so much of that practice, what you preach, you have to model what you expect from them. And I just, you know, we're living in a time right now where I'm watching these students be so overstimulated, but also like there's like this weird desensitization that's happening as well, with a sensitivity, simultaneously. Right. And so when you're watching media just infiltrate kids and, like, media is, like, raising these kids more than going and playing outside and more than playing in your imagination and all of those things. And it feels a bit scary, right? Like, sometimes we have to bring it back to just, like, play, to just being and just existing. And I keep thinking about how hard that world already is, and then to add this other layer of these powerful people that are running the country and that are not listening to survivors. And so, like, if something were to happen to any of them, would they even see justice? Like, all of that feels so incredibly hard. I think kids just need to be kids for a while. And so I think part of this fight is to be able to allow the space for kids to come back to the priorities that they should have, which is, you know, learning to tie your shoe at 6 years old or, you know, going and playing outside and.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So I just. I hope that. I hope that we can get rid of just one of those heavy lifts so these kids can be kids.
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B
Well, you didn't really get to be a kid for as long as you should have because of Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, he robbed you of part of your childhood. And I am sure that sitting, you know, when you were. When you were young and you were a teenager, I'm sure you didn't imagine that you were going to be testifying in front of Congress and known internationally as an advocate for justice. How do you kind of reconcile the young girl that you were with the way brave and fearless woman that you've become? And what do you think your younger self would make of this journey that you've been on?
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A
Thank you for saying brave and fearless, by the way. I don't see myself that way, so thank you very much.
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B
Other people see you that way. Everyone who sees you talk sees you that way.
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A
You know, it's just one foot in front of the other. And I think I was a child dancer, right? It started with dance competitions when I was very young. I moved into ballet. And the ballet world has its own set of issues. And I was groomed from a very young age. And so there's a whole story that happened before I even met Jeffrey. Right. And many of us have that where our backstories kind of led the way into a trap, like what Jeffrey was able to set for us. And so I do feel like I wasn't really allowed to choose anything for myself as a young girl. It was always like, you Are a dancer, that's what you will do. You have to keep pushing. Perfectionism is everything, Body image issues, all of that. And I was. It was that false sense of maturity because I also grew up, you know, in and near New York City. And so I was riding the subway by 10, and I was on my own in dance programs away from my parents. But, you know, by the time I was 13 and 14. So anyway, all to say that I didn't feel like I got that much of a childhood, to be honest. And I think at this point, you just really, like. I think at this point you just have to keep growing into yourself and keep pushing into yourself. And I think I was like that shy kid at the back of the dance class that did not want to say a word. I got into dance and said, I move. That's what I do. To speak. It wasn't about actually speaking words. And so it's hard for me now. When I first started doing the public speaking, I struggled. I mean, I still do to some degree, but I feel like when you have a message, message that you know is important and strong, and you just stay in your message very clearly and remember that it's not about. It's not about you, really. It's about something broader. It's easier to step into that.
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B
You're so right about that. And I mean, your message comes across as so genuine and authentic. And you. And I think that's why it has really resonated across the political spectrum. One of the things that you have really emphasized effectively is that this is not a political issue. This is not a partisan issue. Everyone should want justice for you and your survivor sisters. Everyone should condemn this type of behavior and should demand better. And I just wonder, how do you kind of manage to maintain that line when you're also dealing with people in Washington, D.C. you're testifying in Congress, you're meeting with elected officials where everybody has a political agenda. How do you protect yourself from being used as part of someone else's political agenda?
- [24:49]
A
It's absolutely not about, like, each one of us. You know, it's not about the. You know, it's not about us being political pawns. And I think we will go to anybody in Congress. We will have conversations with anybody in Congress about our stories. We will give leads to anybody in Congress. We will do whatever we have to do to just make sure that justice is served. And so. So in those meetings, we're always saying, how do we help? What can we do? And the meetings are great meetings, and that's where it gets really confusing, right? And it's like we need to put aside partisan politics for this moment. Something that we saw for the Epstein Files Transparency act was that putting aside party lines. And that's why it was so successful. And that's why, honestly, a lot of us felt seen for the very first time where it was like, oh, my gosh, they're starting to get it. It's not about divisiveness. It's actually about us coming together and really making sure that we're making it safer. There was this beautiful moment that I like to refer to during the Epstein Files Transparency act where Marjorie Taylor Greene sat by herself for the houseboat. We were in the gallery, all the survivors were up above, and we're looking down. She sat in the middle by herself, and Melanie Stansbury didn't say a word, but she stood up and she went. And she walked over and she sat down, sat right down next to Marjorie Taylor Greene. And to see those two women just sit there on the floor of the House and just watch these votes come in and just hope for justice or hope for this release, that would at least give us more information and get us closer to justice. That moment will be something that lives in my brain forever. And that was a really powerful moment of inspiration, I think, for a lot of us, because we do feel so polarized in the world right now, and it doesn't need to be that. We really do need to make sure that we're coming together for the right reasons.
- [26:43]
B
Well, I know that your fight is ongoing, but I want to take a moment to acknowledge that you have accomplished so much already, and that is a perfect encapsulation of it. I mean, bringing people together from across the political spectrum in this day and age, in this time in our history is no small feat. And it is just a tremendous credit to you and your fellow advocates that you have been able to do as much as you have. I mean, even if you decided to end the fight right here, it would be a victory unlike many that we have seen in this time in our history.
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A
Well, thank you so much. I mean, we keep fighting, and we will. There's so much work to be done. It feels almost overwhelming. But, you know, we'll keep moving.
- [27:30]
B
I know you will. I want to ask you because, you know, you've kind of created a model for others, what advice you might have for other people who are trying to find their voices. What you have done so effectively is, you know, you. You're not just waiting for justice to be handed to You. You are out there actively pursuing it, and that is really inspiring for a lot of other people who feel powerless, what advice would you give to other people who are trying to find their own voices?
- [28:01]
A
I think show up. Just keep showing up. Show up if you're shaking. Show up when you're tired. Show up when you think you're done. Show up and remember that you have people supporting you and community, and you might find community and you might find that family somewhere that you might not be expecting it, but just one foot in front of the other. Don't look back, Just look forward.
- [28:24]
B
Well, America owes you a debt of gratitude for your efforts to hold powerful people accountable. How can your fellow citizens support you in this fight?
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A
Yeah, we have quite a few laws that we're looking to pass at this point. Right now, we are still pushing Virginia's law, which would change the statute of limitations for civil cases. So that will be on the horizon. And then we're also looking to pass this new private right of action bill that's called the Redact act, and that would allow us to bring accountability to the DOJ and allow survivors to sue. The DOJ basically put the parameters in place for that. And there are all kinds of things that we're working on at the state level. There's the New Mexico, there's our ranch investigation. That's happening. So following along with that, and even at the state level in New York, we're hoping at some point for a truth commission there. So, you know, keeping in touch. There's a survivorsisters.org website that you can go to. World Without Exploitation is an amazing resource. They've been helping us at every turn just to make sure that we know. You know, I always say that we would be screaming into a WhatsApp without them because they really do help to facilitate quite a bit of this. So supporting those organizations and just staying in touch with us. We want to hear your stories. It's been absolutely incredible, the outpouring of people sharing their stories and telling us more about their own backgrounds, and that fuels all of us in such a huge way. Even if we're not responding to every single message that we get, there are often moments where we'll call each other and be like, I want to read this to you. Hold onto this, because this is the fight, right? This is how big the fight is. So, yeah, just keep following us. Thank you.
- [30:18]
B
We will put all of those links into the episode notes so that folks can follow you. And, Danny, you are just such an inspiring role model. You're a role model for your son as well as for your students, as well as for so many Americans that you probably haven't even met and may never meet. And I really just want to thank you for your service, service to our country.
- [30:40]
A
Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you.
- [30:42]
B
Liz, thank you for joining me on Is this really legal? Please stay in touch.
- [30:47]
A
Thank you. Will do.