An Inside Look at the Asylum Process

Summary

It Could Happen Here – An Inside Look at the Asylum Process

Podcast: It Could Happen Here by Cool Zone Media & iHeartPodcasts
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: James Stout
Guest: Francis (spouse of asylum seeker Amos)

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Episode Overview

This episode offers a deeply personal, firsthand account of the U.S. asylum and immigration system through the eyes of Francis, whose husband Amos is currently navigating asylum proceedings amid intensifying policy shifts. The conversation exposes the procedural complexities, shifting political climate, and psychological fallout faced by asylum-seeking families under the current administration. It serves as both a narrative of lived experience and a critical review of systemic failures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family’s Immigration Story and Asylum Claim

• Background: Francis met Amos in Hollywood; the couple moved to Tunisia for better living conditions and family support.
• Activism in Tunisia: Amos was involved in pro-democracy movements and anti-corruption organizing, leading to harassment, arrest, and physical violence by authorities as the political situation worsened under the new regime.
• Flight to the U.S.: Safety concerns forced Francis and the children to return to the U.S. alone, expecting Amos to follow via visa.
• Visa Difficulties: The U.S. embassy repeatedly denied Amos, resulting in a 9-month separation.
• Trek to the Border & Asylum: Amos undertook a dangerous route through South America, eventually presenting himself for asylum at the border, as legal, safe alternatives were closed.
• Slow and Costly Process: Francis details how "the immigration system is broken...it takes years and years and tons and tons of money" (Francis, 06:42). She underscores the myth of “just doing it the right way."
  • Quote:

    “When you’re fleeing a country or a situation where you’re in danger, there is no other option. There’s nowhere to go back.”
    — Francis (07:01)

2. Legal Proceedings & Systemic Obstacles

• Multiple Court Hearings: Five master hearings, cycling through lawyers due to cost and scarcity; "it is almost impossible to get a pro bono lawyer anymore" (07:33).
• Checking in with ICE: Routine and cooperative check-ins at first, with notable changes in process and tone following the new administration.
• New Detention & Monitoring Regimes: Under Trump's administration, Amos was referred to ISAP (migrant supervision contractor), required to install a monitoring app, undergo surprise visits, and adhere to strict check-ins (08:29–09:13).
• Changes in Hearing Protocols:
  • Suddenly, Amos was summoned for an in-person court date despite a previous hearing being scheduled for 2028; the respondent (Amos) is now required to appear physically, bypassing standard virtual options for represented cases (10:47–11:54).
  • Both Francis and their lawyer read this as a strategy to facilitate case dismissal and immediate detention, stripping due process.
  • Quote:

    "They drop your case. So now it’s dismissed...you’re just here illegally and then they sometimes [are] waiting for you in the hallway or outside the building to take you to ICE detention." — Francis (11:35)

• Bond Hearing Rights Removed: A recent policy change eliminates the right to a bond hearing, meaning detention could be indefinite (12:40).

3. Family Impact and Community Tension

• Community Isolation: Living in a conservative town, visible hostility (flags, rhetoric) creates insecurity. Children are in therapy to cope with the trauma of their sudden move and fear of losing their father (13:54–14:34).
• Amos’ Contributions: Despite uncertainty, Amos volunteers locally and works thanks to a recently granted work permit.
• Uncertainty and Fear:
  • The looming threat of detention is emotionally crushing, with little recourse for information, communication, or release if it occurs.
  • Quote:

    “He has no criminal record whatsoever. He has not broken any immigration laws...he presented himself for asylum when you are coming from a country...where he was being harassed.” — Francis (15:09–16:04)

• No Weight to Family Bonds or Good Standing: The system is described as categorically dismissive of familial ties, evidence, or integration, instead tethered to rigid and opaque policy shifts.

4. Systemic Changes and Political Climate

• Case Dismissal & Expedited Removal:
  • Host James clarifies the federal policy shift: many are having their cases dismissed only to be placed into expedited removal, entailing forced detention and an unreachably high bar to prove “credible fear of torture.”
  • Quote:

    “You can be a US Citizen married to a non-US Citizen. This can still happen to you. It can happen to anyone who is not a citizen in this country right now.” — James (23:00)

• Conservative Neighbors and Social Isolation:
  • The family limits transparency, fearing community betrayal or reporting.
  • Anecdotes reveal how the children internalize fear and seek ways to “hide” their father’s ethnicity/appearance (e.g., “Can Dada just cover up his skin?” — Daughter, 26:09).
• Political Rhetoric and Disconnection:
  • Francis expresses frustration at acquaintances who support anti-immigrant policies yet profess kindness locally, highlighting the disconnect between political allegiance and real human impact (25:00–27:21).
  • The pernicious influence of conservative media and the reluctance of mainstream Democrats to oppose anti-immigrant sentiment are discussed.

5. Hopelessness by Design

• Legal Limbo and Bureaucratic Stonewalling:
  • Sponsorship petitions to USCIS move at glacial pace—Francis’ case countdown went from '1 week' left to an 'indefinite' wait overnight (20:58–21:01).
• Self-Deportation and the Threat of Detention:
  • The system’s opacity and cruelty are designed to demoralize and induce 'self-deportation'—to make people give up and leave voluntarily despite the risk.
  • Quote:

    “The system is designed to make you feel hopeless and just to, as they call it, self-deportation.” — James (39:46)

• Activists Silenced:
  • Amos, a lifelong activist, is now compelled to stay quiet, fearing retaliation and endangering remaining pathways to safety.

6. Broader Reflections, Solidarity, and Calls to Action

• Ways to Help:
  • Francis urges donations to the ACLU and direct support for affected families; she stresses the importance of personal connection, gratitude, and kindness toward immigrants in daily life (36:34).
  • Quote:

    “Get to know people…even, like, sometimes I see a Hispanic person in a grocery store, I just want to tell them, thank you for being here. I’m glad you’re here.” — Francis (36:45)

• Structural Appeal:
  • Discussion of the need for systemic change, including more vocal celebrity and political advocacy, as peaceful protest alone has proven inadequate (40:53-41:20).
• Empathy and American Values:
  • Concluding reflections challenge listeners to rediscover human empathy, to resist the narrative that suffering is not their problem, and to care about their neighbors regardless of origin (44:49–45:01).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You know, people who say, ‘Oh, just do it the right way.’ It’s not that simple.”
  — Francis (06:52)
• “[The plan is] what they’ve been doing now is when you go to court, they drop your case...[then] sometimes waiting for you in the hallway...to take you to ICE detention.”
  — Francis (11:35)
• “They should be looking at every single case individually and have a judge make a decision. That’s the whole point of it.”
  — Francis (16:51)
• “You can be a US Citizen married to a non-US Citizen. This can still happen to you. It can happen to anyone who is not a citizen in this country right now.”
  — James (23:00)
• “My daughter even said, can’t Dada just cover up his skin?...She was just thinking, like, was he gonna wear a parka?”
  — Francis (26:09)
• “[The immigration] system is designed to make you feel hopeless and just to, as they call it, self deportation.”
  — James (39:46)
• “No children deserve the horrors of this planet. We’re actually a lot luckier than a lot of other children...But at the same time, they’re our children, and this is a problem we’re dealing with...”
  — Francis (45:40)
• “A society that says ‘it’s not my problem’ is not one that any of us should want to live in.”
  — James (44:56)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:07: Episode and guest introduction
• 03:41–07:00: Family’s backstory and initial experience in Tunisia
• 07:02–08:05: Visa barriers and the journey to the U.S. border
• 08:29–09:41: Surveillance, check-ins, and procedural escalation under new administration
• 10:47–12:40: Unusual court notice, forced in-person appearance, and loss of bond hearing rights
• 13:54: Impact on children; therapy and community tensions
• 16:50–17:09: System’s disregard for family ties and evidence
• 20:58–21:01: Glacial pace of legal sponsorship proceedings
• 23:00–23:12: Explanation of case dismissal and expedited removal
• 25:00–27:21: Community alienation and family’s caution in social interactions
• 31:00–32:34: Racial disparities in immigration enforcement
• 36:34–38:13: Calls for solidarity and practical ways to help
• 39:46: Systemic hopelessness and ‘self-deportation’
• 41:20: Appeal for bolder advocacy and support
• 44:49: Emphasis on empathy and communal responsibility
• 46:29–47:04: Family’s determination to stay together

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Tone & Style

• Raw, empathetic personal narrative and analytical breakdown.
• The hosts and guest adopt a humanizing, urgent, and occasionally sardonic tone, with moments of emotional vulnerability and calls for solidarity.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode lays bare the chaotic, punitive, and dehumanizing state of the U.S. asylum process. Through Francis’ emotional testimony, it critiques the escalation of anti-immigrant policy—where due process is eroded, families live in fear, and even those with deep community ties and spotless records are rendered powerless and unsafe. It closes with a call for empathy, advocacy, and direct support for those enmeshed in a system driven by political will rather than justice or humanity.

Transcript

[Francis]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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Ugh. Come on.

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Uhhuh.

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[Francis]

Zone Media.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Hi everyone. Welcome to the podcast. It's me, James today and I'm very fortunate to be joined by Francis, whose husband Amos is facing a date in immigration court this week. We wanted to bring you a firsthand perspective of what it's like going through immigration court right now. So, Francis, thank you for joining us.

[Francis]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, of course. We're very glad you're here. So to start with, like, would you like to explain your family's. I know this is a lengthy topic, your family's immigration story.

[Francis]

Yes. I met my husband Amos in Hollywood. We were both living in Hollywood and we dated a couple years there and then ended up moving to his home country of Tunisia because he had a big family there and I don't have much family here and we wanted to have children. It's much better cost of living there. And at the time the government there was doing pretty well. There had been an Arab Spring which my husband was very much involved with on this over here in the States, like helping with that. And so he's an activist and at the time the government there was pretty good. So we lived there for eight years, had our children there and a new presidency came in while we were living there, the current president, Kaius Saeed, and things started to change. So my husband was doing a lot of organizing, grassroots movement through local farmers unions and monitoring elections and doing pro democracy activities for anti corruption. And he's really an activist for free speech and things like that. So he started getting harassed, he was arrested, he was beaten up by the police and things like that. So it started getting very uncomfortable. Also, I was getting harassed. I would get pulled over a lot by the police. They would impound our car, they would take us out. Yeah, the police there carry big guns, you know, as in most Arab countries. And so it was very frightening for me. Yeah, they carry big guns. They're either on their backs or even in their hands and they would have me and the kids get out of the car and it was very frightening. So the children and I, well, we were all planning on coming back to the States. I hadn't been home in a while, and so the children and I went ahead and came assuming that my husband would be able to get at least a visa to, you know, see us. And while once we were here, he was not able to get a visa. He tried and tried and tried, and I was begging the embassy to allow him to see us here, and they just would not. So we were separated for nine months. So him being away from our children, they were about 4 and 6 at the time, or maybe 5 and 7. It was devastating for all of us. So he ended up taking a very treacherous journey across South America and made his way through many countries and presented himself for asylum at the border because, again, we did not feel safe living in Tunisia anymore. So he presented himself for asylum at the border, and they allowed him into this country with a court date. And at the time, Biden was president. So things are, you know, have changed a lot since then. Yeah, it, you know, the. The immigration system is broken. Everybody knows that. It's. It takes years and years and years and tons and tons of money for an immigrant to, you know, go through the process. You know, people who say, oh, just do it the right way. It's not that simple. It takes a lot of money and a lot of time, and it's very complicated. And when you're fleeing a country or a situation where you're in danger, there is no other option. You know, there's nowhere to go back.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

So that's what we're kind of facing now. So he had a court date. We've had five master hearings, and we've gone through a few different lawyers because we have found, for one thing, it's extremely difficult to find a lawyer these days because they're very overbooked. Most of them are not taking new cases. People tell us, oh, just get a pro bono lawyer. It is almost impossible to get a pro bono lawyer anymore. And, you know, who has thousands and thousands of extra dollars to pay for legal help with the situation. We do have a lawyer now, thanks to some fundraising that we've done. So since he's been here, we've had to check in at the ICE office like it was on sort of a basis of, after you have a court hearing the next day or within a couple days, you must go check in at ice. And it's been very fine. Like the. There's a very nice officer there who knows us and tries to help answer our questions. So it was. It was pretty calm when Biden Was president.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

And then now that Trump's administration has taken over, we knew that there would be a lot of changes and we were very frightened.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

So we went for a hearing earlier this year. You know, we're just a lot more nervous and the hearing went fine, just kind of as normal. We went to the ICE check in. I think our guard was kind of down because we thought since the hearing went fine, this will go fine.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

And the, the nice officer told us, you know, well, this is going to sound a little scary, but we need you to go check in at a different place this time. And so they sent us to a company called isap. They own, I think, migrant detention centers. So we went to this place and he was there the whole day. They were interviewing him. They, they put an app in his phone so that now he has to do these weekly check ins where his phone makes this loud alarm sound. He must stop everything and take a picture of himself. There's a monthly home visit where they come to our house and take his picture and ask him questions. There's, we have to go check in at their office. And also he does virtual check ins. So it's just a lot more.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

And everything was kind of going as planned. We, our last hearing in July, that was really stressful because we didn't have a lawyer leading up to it. And at the last second we were able to, to get a lawyer. And the reason it's so important to have a lawyer is because if you don't, you must appear in person. And that's very stressful and frightening. Again, we have small children, we don't even do babysitters. Like we're always just together. We're a very tight family unit.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

And so we go to these things together and we really wanted this last one in July to be virtual because if it's virtual, you know, it's just feels a lot safer. We're in the comfort of our own home and we've been hearing in the news, you know, how they're picking up people outside of their court hearings. So we got the attorney, we got a virtual hearing. It was a very short hearing. It was great because she just gave us the next hearing date was September of 2028. And the judge said, okay, see you in 2028. And we breathed a sigh of relief, crossed our fingers, did our necessary check ins and we were just, you know, hoping that everything would be fine.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

Well, just here at the end of August, beginning of September, we get out of the blue a new notice. It Was very interesting too because this ISAP company calls us and says, good news, we're gonna lessen the amount of check ins you have to do. It's gonna be a lot less now. So you know, it was interesting cause she's like, this is great news for you. It's like once a month, you'll still do the weekly ones and then it's just gonna be once a month.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Francis]

But then she says, and then we'll see you after your hearing in September, meaning this September. And we, we thought it was a mistake because we knew we had one in 2028. Yeah, like no, no, you got a new hearing notice. So that's how we found out. They didn't send it to us. Even our lawyer didn't know. So we find out that we have a new hearing out of the blue. There was a mix up about the dates. But anyway we, we, it was September 11th or 15th and then our attorney asked for an extension, right. And the most they could give us was nine days. So now our hearing is this coming Wednesday, September 24th. And on. This has never happened before. But when again when you have an attorney, you can appear virtually, right? And on this hearing notice it said that the attorney can appear virtually, but the respondent must appear in person. And that is highly unusual. It's in bold at the top. So our attorney agrees with us that it's pretty clear the plan is, what they've been doing now is when you go to court, they, they drop your case. So now it's dismissed. And therefore you are just here without due process. Like now you're, you don't have a right to due process. It's done. So you're just here illegally and then they sometimes waiting for you in the hallway or outside the building to take you to ICE detention, right? So obviously since we found this out, I mean we've just been sleepless nights, full panic mode of figuring out like what to do. And then our attorney doesn't even have answers for us. She does not know what to do. She says every, this is all new to her. It's new to all the lawyers. She doesn't even know what to do or who to ask. Yeah, and that's frightening because that's why we have an attorney. You know, it's, we're hoping for some support or someone who's knowledgeable about the law and what are our options. And it feels like we don't have any. We feel extremely helpless. And I've never thought I would see this in my country. My Quote, unquote, free country that I have lived in most of my life and grew up in. Also, about two weeks ago, they changed the law where now we are not entitled to a bond hearing. So if he is taken into detention, we can't even get him out, because that was the first thing we thought was, well, let's just try to get some money together and we'll bail him out. Yeah, that's not even an option anymore. So, again, more fear. So we're dealing with all of this and. And wondering what to do as far as, you know, again, we have small children. They're now seven and nine years old. We're extremely happy where we're living. We live in a small community that does lean on the conservative side. So we do feel a little uncomfortable with some of our neighbors and their flags and everything. They're very bold.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

So, you know, and you can't hide being brown, so it's. It's awkward. And then our children, because of the way that we left before, when we left Tunisia, it was pretty sudden. We kind of took them out of school and just came to America. America. And left their dad behind. So.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

They've been in therapy ever since. They. They each have a weekly therapist just to help with if they're, you know, if they're going to have any symptoms of trauma coming up for them. And. And they're doing great, actually. They're thriving here. They are so happy. They are in the best school. I actually work at their school, and my husband volunteers at the school, and he's been their soccer coach for both of their teams, which is a lot to take on. He also volunteers in our community at a RA helping with horses and at a facility for senior citizens. And he does have a work permit. They granted him a work permit, which took a long time to get.

[James (Podcast Host)]

That's good because that can take a long time.

[Francis]

It took a long time. Over a year. But he does have it now. So we. So we got excited because he only got the work permit a couple months ago. So we're very excited. You know, he can work. And now it's just out of the blue, our world is turned upside down where there's a strong potential that he will be taken into ICE custody. And listen, I. I understand if that's how they want to do things now, but if it was like a safer situation where maybe they. They just.

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[Francis]

It's just there's so many unknowns about where are they taking him? There's. Our lawyer does not Think we will be informed about where they take him. That's one thing. Which means we probably won't be able to communicate with him. We don't know how long he'll be there. They could keep him there the entire three years until 2028. They might just want to keep him in detention and wait, you know, for his next year. It doesn't make any sense to me because that costs money and he's a taxpayer. Wouldn't it pay more if he's home working, by the way? Yes. He has no criminal record whatsoever. He has not broken any immigration laws. At least when he came over the border, it was legal to present yourself for asylum when you are coming from a country. Like he was, where he was, you know, being harassed, detained.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

And his entire family. Like we were being threatened and feeling very unsafe there.

[James (Podcast Host)]

So, yeah, it's a textbook asylum case. Right.

[Francis]

Like, yeah, we have a valid asylum claim. We've submitted hundreds of documents of evidence to the court. You know, the judge actually complimented us on how well we did because at the time we didn't have an attorney. We were just trying to do it on our own because we couldn't afford an attorney. We were both college graduates. So we, we put together a really organized, you know, case. And so I have filed to sponsor him as well, you know, as my husband. Yeah, we've been together 12 years, married 10, two kids. And they don't care about that. It does not matter if he has an American family. It does not matter they are taking anybody.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

And that also is very, very frustrating. And that's the reason that we should have due process. They should be looking at every single case individually and have a judge make a decision. That's the whole point of it.

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[Francis]

Come on.

[Tech User]

Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Tech User]

Whoa, this thing moves.

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[Francis]

Obviously, if we had hindsight, if we had known that this, you know, could have happened, we had no idea that this yeah. Could have happened in our country. We would have started this sponsorship process a long time ago. The reason we didn't is because he was married before and he went through this process with USCIS to try to get sponsorship with his first wife and it was extremely complicated and frustrating and cost a lot of money and he went through a bunch of lawyers and he was so traumatized by the experience that literally we had big legal files in our house that I had to hide because he couldn't even see them or he would get triggered. So he didn't want to put me through that. And we were living in Tunisia anyway, and so we just figured we were just kind of kicking the can down the road thinking, oh, we'll deal with it at some point. Unfortunately, we waited way too long and, you know, didn't start dealing with it until he got here. And. And so USCIS, which is where we file for the sponsorship.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. U.S. customs Immigration Service people know. Familiar.

[Francis]

Yes. Thank you. After we filed that, they gave us a time period on when we would get the decision. It was 15 months that we would have to wait. And we've been checking the site, checking the site, checking the site has been counting down, counting down. And about a month ago, we were down to a week that we would be getting a decision. And after the week passed, it changed. The message on the app now or the website now says, indefinitely, you'll have to wait indefinitely for this decision. So we've been trying to ask our lawyer, please push for this, because if that gets, you know, an answer, that would be great. But the answer could be no on that as well. They could just say, no, come on in, and they can take them straight from there as well. So the whole thing is so incredibly stressful and frightening. The fact that my government, I'm in America. I'm an American citizen with two American kids, and my government is threatening to tear our family apart and take my husband away, the father of my children, and traumatize my children again. To have, you know, their dad not with us, and Lord knows where they're going to send him. It is absolutely infuriating. And it feels like agony, too, because, like, every day I wake up and I'm counting down the days to this hearing, and we have no idea what's going to happen.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

It feels very, very threatening to our safety and our livelihood. And that it's coming from our government does not make me feel like this is a great country to live in, and I do not feel safe living here.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Thanks for sharing all that. That's a lot to.

[Francis]

Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

To have to. To put out there. So thank you for sharing it. I guess we should just explain for people, like, there's a lot of stuff that maybe people who haven't been through the system might not grasp within that. Right. So what the government has. If I just break down, like the dismissal of cases, as I understand it, what the government has been doing has been dismissing people's asylum case. Right. Which they got under Title eight when they entered under the Biden administration, and then placing them in expedited removal proceedings.

[Francis]

Yes.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Which is A mandatory detention, as you said. Right. It's not a bailout situation. And then, as you say, forcing them to fight from detention. Right. Which in this case would obviously stop your husband from working, stop your husband from paying taxes, and instead make him a burden on the American taxpayer while he's detained in conditions which can often be very poor. In that situation, your only sort of claim is a credible fear of torture. Right. Which is something that, in your case, it sounds like would be very real. But nonetheless, that is a very high bar. And we've seen the United States do all kinds of things to get around that. We report on that all the time. So I can understand that fear and where it comes from. I think people will be shocked, but they perhaps shouldn't be to hear that, yes, you can be a US Citizen married to a non US Citizen. This can still happen to you. It can happen to anyone who is not a citizen in this country right now. I wonder. It must have been pretty heartbreaking to see the election, to see the rhetoric, like, how does that line up with your lives in your community? Because I see this often even from really conservative people. Right. Like, I know people who voted for Trump who have also shown up to, like, cook for asylum seekers in the desert or to help refugees living in our community. Like, it's very strange thing. Have you felt alienated from your community since the beginning of this year? Like, has it? I'm interested in, like, how your lives have changed because of that change in rhetoric.

[Francis]

Yes. Like I said, we have neighbors on our streets, so there was a block party for 4th of July, which I didn't even feel like celebrating, but we had just moved into this house, so we felt like we should go at least meet the neighbors. And there's a lot of Trump flags on our street, and it was very awkward. But. But my husband is very charming and charismatic and outgoing, and he just goes right up and introduces himself. And there was one gentleman wearing a T shirt that said, they hate us because they ain't us. And it's got a big old, you know, Trump face on it. And it was just so, so awkward. So, yeah, we feel uncomfortable. Also, like I said, it's a. It leans conservative in this community. And our school. Even, like, as we're doing this fundraiser, we were very careful not to share it with anyone that we live near, just in case, you know, because we have been hearing reports of people, like, neighbors calling ice on their neighbors to, you know, report them and, you know, go pick up this person. You know, he looks brown. Or I don't know what they're. What they're doing or their logic, but, you know. Yeah, it feels very threatening. And even. Oh, my. My daughter even said, can't Dada just cover. Cover up his skin? You know, like, she was just thinking, like, yeah, was he gonna wear a parka?

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah.

[Francis]

I mean, you can'. Hide who you are, and you shouldn't have to.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right. And it's very hard for the kids to be saying that.

[Francis]

Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

That dad should be hiding.

[Francis]

Yeah. And they've asked me, how can we make Trump just forget about data? You know? And I said, well, he doesn't really know. They don't, you know, he doesn't know exactly, your dad. It's just. They're doing this to a lot of people, you know.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

We just happen to be in that group. But I will say we have some. Some close friends that we really adore, and they are Trumpers. You know, we see it on their Facebook page, but then where in their presence, they don't bring it up. And it's just kind of an elephant in the room. And honestly, as our data is getting closer, we plan on having them over to talk about it because it feels very awkward. And I just think they're just the kindest people. They're extremely religious, which we are not. We're more on the spiritual side. But, you know, I think they're just on a team. They've chosen a team, and I don't think they're necessarily paying a lot of attention to what's actually happening to people. So we're hoping that just a conversation and we'll just let them know we want to be honest with the people that are close to us and that mean a lot to us, you know, because.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, right.

[Francis]

We don't know what's about to happen. And even there's members of my family that I feel very awkward talking to as well, where I kind of distanced myself, because people who are still supporting this regime at this point, to me, are too far gone to even kind of get them to come around, I guess. I mean, I just don't understand. I can't understand support of Trump from the first place. So, again, if people are still on that boat, I really don't relate to them. And it's very awkward, especially. Yeah. People in my family who supposedly love me and my children are still supporting that regime. And despite seeing all the things, maybe they don't see it. I mean, I know they. If they are exclusively watching Fox News, then they are Only receiving that information, which is not telling the whole story.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

And it's definitely completely skewed to make them look like the good guys. And anyone on that's liberal is a bad guy. And they're very much targeting, you know, Democrats now as the enemy, the enemy of the state. They have even said so. It's, I mean, it's. So now I'm starting to feel even unsafe for myself because I'm, I'm not super active on, on Facebook, but I, I am outspoken because I can't resist. I mean, I, It's. There is freedom of speech in this country, or at least there was and there should be. And it's hard to be quiet at this time. And I, we would be a lot more outspoken if we weren't feeling unsafe.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. But you have that fear.

[Francis]

Yes. Yeah, yes. Especially my husband because he's always been an activist and a, you know, fighter for free speech and, and equal rights. And so it's, that's one of the things that's really crushing him and his soul and his spirit through all this is that he cannot even speak out.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

So, you know, for people like him, it's not even for himself, but just for people like him. I know he wants to help, you know, and it's really challenging.

[James (Podcast Host)]

I know it's so sad to see the whole point of the asylum system and at least the sort of stated purpose of American foreign policy is to spread democracy throughout the world and allow people who have stood up for democracy and been persecuted to come here and be safe. And evidently the United States doesn't even believe in saying that anymore in so much as it said it, but didn't always do it in the past. Yeah. It is really sad to think that even that is gone for so many people. I think the idea of migrants is like an abstract one. Right. For your Fox News viewer, migrants are just like an abstract brown skinned bad person. And I often think that if those people had known migrants in their community, they would either not vote that way or they would at least not like that policy. Even if there were other things they liked about Trump, which I gave. That's not something I can find much understanding of. But.

[Francis]

Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

And those people do exist, but it's just so sad to see, like, people turned against anyone who wasn't born in this country.

[Francis]

Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

And simply because they weren't. Not because of any, any other character.

[Francis]

Trait they have, particularly the brown skin, though, because you have to admit, the Canadians are. I mean, even though there's been a little Tension with the Canadians at first in this regime, you know, they're. They're pretty much under the radar. And anyone from Europe or anyone. He's even said, like, send the Nordic people. That's fine. You know, I mean, he's. He's very clear.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right?

[Francis]

Yeah. The South African refugees are welcome. Come on.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yes. Yeah, right.

[Francis]

Just so blatant, you know, And I remember when I was growing up, my mom in particular would. Would complain when. When we started to have to press one for English. I remember my mom complaining about that or thinking, you know, you know, if you're here, you should learn the language. Well, I gotta say, I lived in Tunisia for eight years, and I did not learn the language. I tried to teach myself. It's a dialect that, you know, at the time, they didn't have lessons that you could get on. On YouTube or Duolingo or anything. You know, if I learned French and Arabic, maybe I could pie. But I. You know, it's not as easy as. As people say. And. And.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not.

[Francis]

And. And then just to speak of my mother, I guess she prides herself on making friends with people at the grocery store who are of another ethnicity or, or like, really, you know, getting to know a doctor or she has a housekeeper who's been working for her for, like, 30 years. And. And so I know she doesn't think of that person as being someone that should.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

You know, so I think even if you do know a family or two who's. Who's an immigrant, you might think, oh, well, not them. I don't mean them. I mean all the other ones. I mean all the bad guys.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And the bad ones.

[Francis]

Yeah. And if. If Trump was serious about getting the bad ones go to the gang neighborhoods, like, we do know where the dangerous gang neighborhoods are, but they're not sending the tanks there. They're sending them to MacArthur park, you know.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

Home Depot. It's like, if you want to get the gang, the gangs, but I think they're too scared of that because these are really just regular people that they're hiring to do this work for them, to pick up people. And that's why they're hiding their faces, because they are regular people who would like to probably have a normal life outside of this new job that they've been so well paid for.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right. Yeah. And certainly they're. They're recruiting a lot more people to do that right now, which is going to only see a step up in enforcement. Yeah.

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[Francis]

Ah, come on.

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[James (Podcast Host)]

I wonder, like, in so much as anything has helped, because people will want to have, like. I think people will listen. They will understand your situation. They will see the possibility of your family being torn apart and want to help. But it's hard to help right now. Right. Unless you're an immigration lawyer. And every pro bono immigration lawyer I know. Is mental health damaging? Levels of overworked and stressed and traumatized?

[Francis]

I think so.

[James (Podcast Host)]

What can people do, either for you or in their communities to, like, show up for people who are in your situation?

[Francis]

I would say donate. You could donate to the aclu, donate to individual families like ours, I'm sure. I think there's a lot of gofundmes out there that people are trying to raise money for. That's the way, you know, everything is kind of done these days when people are desperate and speak out. And I think the most important thing is have conversations and get to know people. And even, like, sometimes I see, you know, a Hispanic person in a grocery store, I just want to tell them, thank you for being here. I'm glad you're here. Fear. Because I think they must be feeling so scared right now and so unwanted and so unappreciated when they are doing some of the hardest jobs that nobody else wants to do for very little money. Yeah. These are essential workers. They should be paid the most. Everything is backwards, you know, the. The people who are doing the hardest, you know, cleaning the toilets and picking the. The fields, they should be paid the most. It doesn't make any sense. Regardless of where they're from, from, they're willing to do the work. And Lord knows their background of where they came from and how. What the struggles that they've been through to leave their home country. Nobody wants to leave their home country. You do that because it's so bad that you. You must, you know, especially if you have children. You're trying to make a better life for yourself. And we've been sold on this American dream prospect, you know, that we've heard our whole lives and the whole world has heard about.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

So they come, and now we're just punishing them brutally. It's not even like. Like, oh, no, sorry, we're full, you know, we're gonna have to send you back. It's like, no, we're gonna punish you. We're gonna treat you like dogs, Call you animals and vermin and call you horrible things.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

Send you to places where you're Unsafe and untaken care of. And maybe if you're lucky, you'll get sent back to your home country or you'll get sent to a random country or even a, A prison, like a horrible prison in another country where who knows what's good. It's just. This is what frightens me.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

You know, again, if he was sent to somewhere, to a place where I could, you know, we could have visits or calls or, you know, and he waits it out, I guess that would be more tolerable than the unknown of his, his safety. He's not going to be well taken care of. That's a fact. They don't care about these people. And, and my husband, unfortunately, he's always been extremely strong, extremely brave, a fighter. And I feel like his fight is gone. He's physically and mentally at the end of his rope. And I'm extremely frightened. I mean, he just feels like he's tired of fighting. He's just exhausted from this. You know, again, he. I mean, we've been together 12 years and again he was going through this process with his first wife, who he was with for eight years, and he never got an answer. He was never denied, but he just never got an answer. And that was enough for them for our case, just to, you know, it's going to be really, really difficult to get a yes from. From. For a green card.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it still happens. I've heard of it happening even in the last few months, but it is increasingly harder and less common and that is brutal.

[Francis]

Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Like, it's horrible. And the way, of course, as you're saying, the system is designed to make you feel hopeless and just to, as they call it, self deportation.

[Francis]

Yes. And even our lawyer doesn't know what to do. And I feel the judge seems like a nice person and I would imagine it must be very frustrating too, to be a judge at this time, where they have to be the ones that are just kind of. Their hands are tied. They will lose their job if they don't do what the regime wants them to do. So, you know, this is what happens in third world countries. This is why America has been great. Because we weren't like this before with this, you know, cutting out free speech and things like that. It's, it's changing rapidly and, and if, if people don't stand up more, and I'm sorry, but it's going to have to take more than these peaceful protests, unfortunately, because they're not doing anything. We are being laughed at by the MAGA Republicans. They do not care about our peaceful protests. They're just like, okay, there's a protest on this day. Next day, they're just going to keep doing it harder, you know.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

It's not changing anything. So something has to change. I'm hoping more celebrities come out and start speaking up. I think that would help because people tend to back the celebrities that they love. And I'm kind of alarmed that more people, like, especially the most powerful celebrities, like Oprah, for example, why aren't they out there every day, you know, saying, this is what I support and this is what I don't support. I think they're scared, I'm assuming.

[James (Podcast Host)]

I would imagine so. Yeah. Like, that's quite a sad thought.

[Francis]

I do think that the MAGA Republicans are outnumbered, and I think that they're continuously going to be outnumbered as things get more and more, you know, shocking as we're seeing our freedoms being stripped, the constitutional freedoms that we've always known being stripped. I think it's going to get worse and I don't know how bad it has to get before change happens.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I don't think any of us do. I do think you're right that more and more people are not happy with how this is happening, but there doesn't even seem to be a will among Democrats to oppose this in a meaningful way.

[Francis]

Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Which is very sad. And like.

[Francis]

Yeah, even the Democrats in power don't know what to do. I mean.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And they seem to think that it's electoral suicide to just to be basically decent and say we need to be decent people and kind to people who come here asking us to help them. And this seems to be something that is just. Just inadmissible in electoral politics, which is really sad right now.

[Francis]

Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

So you guys have your court date. We will obviously continue covering this.

[Francis]

Thank you so much.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, we're going to continue updating people. We will continue talking about this and covering this. And. Yeah, we'll try and get an update out. This is coming out. You'll be hearing this on Monday. We will try and get an update out within a week or so just to let everyone know how things have gone and what they can do to help. Is there anything else you'd like to say to people before we go?

[Francis]

Yeah. So as we found out, you know, that there's a good possibility that he will be taken into ICE detention on Wednesday. We asked our lawyer. Okay, so what are the next steps if that happens? What? You know, he has a constitutional right to due process of law, habeas Corpus. And she doesn't know what to do. She's never done it before. So therefore, we need to find a different lawyer that can help us with that. It's not an immigration court, it's federal court. So we have inquiries. We actually have a consult today with someone who maybe help us with that. We sent emails out last night, kind of telling our story to another lawyer, hoping that we can get some support on that front, because basically that's your next step. Once you're in detention, you raise your constitutional rights of due process of law, you know, but then again, it's another fight. And again, it could be from detention, which is. Yeah. More money. I'm. I'm gonna be at that point a single mother, you know, trying to.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

Support bills here in California, which is already, you know, difficult and, you know, on my own and also paying lawyers and trying to fight to either find my husband or get him out of there. You know, Know, we, we don't want to leave the country if we, if we don't have to. We, we love it here. I don't know where else to go. We can't go to Tunisia. I'm American. Where are we supposed to go?

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

And that's what people don't understand too, with immigrants, you know, if they can't return to their home country because of safety reasons, which is most of the cases. That's why we have asylum cases, then what are they supposed to do, you know?

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And I don't think a lot of people seem to care. Right. They think people, they just want people to go away somewhere.

[Francis]

Yeah. Go figure it out. Yeah. It's not our problem. Yeah.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Which, like, in this case, it very much is. And in every case, like, and like, it is our problem that, like, we should take responsibility for one another's well being. Right.

[Francis]

Yes.

[James (Podcast Host)]

As humans should care about each other. Yeah.

[Francis]

Like, have empathy at least. That's the least we could do.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. I know a society that says it's not my problem is not one that any of us should want to live in.

[Francis]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And in our case, my husband's particularly worried because if he does get sent back to Tunisia, most definitely he would be in jail there as well, which is also not a pleasant experience.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. To put it mildly.

[Francis]

And it would be. Yeah. Where they torture people in. In jail. So. Yeah. Again, we don't really know what to do or where to go, but these are the thoughts that we're having.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. They're not unreasonable.

[Francis]

Yeah. If we do self deport when do we. Like, we're trying to push it as long as we can stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay. You know, and then when do we let them know, okay, okay, I guess we'll self support, like at the last second before they take them into detention. Like, you know, I don't know the safe way to do that.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Francis]

And then if we do, can they give us time to get our affairs in order? Like, leaving the country is no small task, and we don't even have money to do that do that. So, you know, these are our options. These are literally our options. And again, small children, second grade, fourth grade, you know, and they're thriving here. Like, they don't deserve this. And my husband even said, you know, he said this the other day, like, our children don't deserve this. And I said, no, children deserve the horrors of this planet. You know, that, that. I mean, we're. We're actually a lot luckier than a lot of other children, so. But at the same time, there are children, and this is a problem that we're dealing with, and unfortunately, they have to deal with it too. You know, that's just what a family is.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Francis]

Our goal is to stay together no matter what. We want to keep my husband safe, and we want to keep us together. That's our number one goal. So, unfortunately, that may mean that we need to leave. And I will be very, very sad if that's the case because. Because I have always loved this country. It's always stood for greatness. And ironically, the group that thinks they're going to make America great again is. Is failing miserably.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's incredibly sad. And like you say, you've already upped and left with your children once.

[Francis]

Yes.

[James (Podcast Host)]

To come to a safe place, to be safe, and then to have to do it again from that safe place I'm sure will be. And the older they get, the more than they realize what's happening.

[Francis]

Yeah. It's only two years later, you know, the poor kids.

[James (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

[Francis]

Yeah. Thank you.

[James (Podcast Host)]

This sucks. We'll all be thinking of you.

[Francis]

Thank you very much.

[James (Podcast Host)]

And yeah, if you're. If you're listening, I will. I will try and keep you updated over the next few weeks.

[Francis]

Thank you so much, James.

[James (Podcast Host)]

All right, thank you. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

[Francis]

Yeah, thank you. It could happen. Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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[Francis]

Ah, come on.

[Tech User]

Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Tech User]

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[Danielle Fishel]

This is Danielle Fishel from POD meets World Parents. Quick question. When is the last time you won snack time? The other day I handed my son a perfectly portioned Pinterest level snack and he traded it for a Mott's Applesauce Pouch.

[Francis]

Pouch.

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Learn [e-mail] Honestly, honestly, honestly. No one wants to think about HIV, but there are things that everyone can do to help prevent it. Things like prep. PREP stands for Pre Exposure Prophylaxis, and it means routinely taking prescription medicine before you're exposed to HIV to help reduce your chances of getting it. Prep can be about 99% effective when taken as prescribed. It doesn't protect against other STIs, though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sexual practices. Ask a healthcare provider about all your prevention options, and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more. Sponsored by Gilead this is an iHeart podcast.