Daniel Kurd (2:07)

Call Zone Media. Hello everyone. Welcome to It Could Happen Here. My name is Daniel Kurd and I'm an associate professor of political science and a researcher and analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics and authoritarianism more generally. Today, I Have on the podcast. Ben Lorber. Ben is a senior research analyst at Political Research Associates. He's worked as a journalist, organizer, and movement builder for over a decade and published on right wing social movements, Israel, Palestine, Jewish culture, and other such topics for outlets such as the Nation, Salon, Jewish Currents, and more. He's the co author of Safety Through A Radical Guide to Fighting Antisemitism book published in 2024. I'll link in the show notes for sure. Ben, welcome to It Could Happen here.

Ben Lorber (2:56)

Thanks for having me.

Daniel Kurd (2:57)

So I thought we could get started with you just telling us about yourself and your research.

Ben Lorber (3:02)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I came to the topic of anti Semitism, I guess, you know, in some ways, I mean, as an American Jew, you know, it's a part of life. But in many ways, I came to it politically through the Palestine solidarity movement. Over a decade ago, I spent a lot of time in the west bank doing solidarity work. And I worked for some years for Jewish Voice for Peace as their campus organizer. And I saw kind of firsthand how charges of anti Semitism are used to shut down dissent to stop Palestinian, Arab and Muslim students from asking their university to not use their tuition dollars to bomb Gaza. So at the same time, you know, we all saw the rise of the alt right in the first Trump administration. And yeah, you know, like many, I started digging into, you know, what do these folks believe? You know, the anti Semitism in their rhetoric was undeniable. And long story short, since 2019, I work with Political Research associates to, yeah, to monitor the radical right. I write a lot about antisemitism and how it animates the MAGA movement and rising authoritarianism. And also I also focus a lot on how, you know, the right uses these charges of anti Semitism to go after their political opponents and to shut down criticism of, you know, Israel's genocide.

Daniel Kurd (4:16)

Yeah, I mean, it's been something to behold to watch actual antisemites accuse others of antisemitism. And the irony seems to be lost on all university administrators apparently. But I've listened to you a couple times on different podcasts and, you know, read your work, I have your book. I realized that I really don't understand the contours of modern antisemitism, like maybe because I'm an immigrant. So the tropes that they're talking about, the tropes that they're using, it really is a learning experience for me to like, be like, oh, I didn't realize these are the stories that they're telling. With that said, you know, you recently published something for Convergence magazine titled something like what Antisemitism Is and Isn't. And again, I'll link in the show notes, and I thought that was really useful. What are kind of the main takeaways for people to know from. From that piece?

Ben Lorber (5:05)

Yeah, yeah. You know, in some ways, anti Semitism has some unique features, you know, and it also. It reminds us of, say, you know, Islamophobia with tropes that there's a grand Muslim conspiracy to take over the West. You know, antisemitism, you know, follows that kind of similar conspiracy theory logic that really is at the heart of. Of maga, you know, and basically, it's a conspiracy theory that says, you know, there's a Jewish cabal, you know, at the top of. Of the government and politics, you know, society, the economy, the media, you know, culture, basically, whatever authoritarians oppose and whatever they want to rally their base against, you know, they can use this. This image of, you know, things are not what they seem. There's kind of the hidden power structure, and it's. It's Jewish. I think a lot of what MAGA does really well and what the left tries to do, but in a different way, is, you know, to tap into people's frustrations that the rent is too high or that they feel alienated by the modern world or, you know, the more racist frustrations that their neighborhoods are changing. You know, there's a lot of frustrations and grievance that MAGA can tap into in our world. A vast, you know, inequality and desperation. And, you know, blaming someone at the top is very useful to channel those grievances, and that's kind of the way that anti Semitism has worked for over a century. I mean, even before fascist movements of interwar Europe that led to the Holocaust, you know, there were Russian ultra nationalists who. Who used documents like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, you know, to tell millions of Russian peasants, hey, don't join with, you know, more radical movements for liberation. You know, those are controlled by the Jews. Right. So, you know, these. These tropes especially, I think, of Jews controlling progressive movement. You know, Jews behind, you know, mass immigration or BLM or LGBTQ rights. They're very powerful for authoritarians, you know, to use. And sometimes they say Jew. Right. Sometimes they use dog whistles like George Soros or Cultural Marxists or globalists. But it's the same kind of idea.

Daniel Kurd (7:05)

Yeah, the Heritage foundation guy saying, globalist. We're not going to bow down to globalists. Yeah. So, I mean, lots of political Ideologies use antisemitism. And there are, of course, a lot of intersections and overlaps. But I think what I particularly found confusing or like the piece that I was least aware of when I said I didn't understand the contours of what this looked like was the Christian nationalism bit. How has, like, the Christian nationalist movement used anti Semitism and how has that movement kind of progressed and developed?

Ben Lorber (7:35)

Yeah, that's a good question, you know, because, you know, we're so used to the Christian right saying that they're built on a, you know, timeless foundation of Judeo Christian values. Right. You know, I think in the west, you know, after the Holocaust, with the rise of, you know, U.S. support for, you know, for Israel, it became, you know, very common to have a kind of, you know, philo Semitism on the Christian right of saying, you know, we are the world's, you know, most valiant defenders of the Jews. In the 80s it was against godless communism, or after 911 it was, you know, against radical Islam. And, you know, that in itself has a lot of anti Semitism. Right. I mean, I think, you know, listeners might know about, you know, the Christian Zionist, you know, movement which supports Israel because of end times fantasies in which Jesus is going to return and most Jews are going to perish or convert to Christianity. You know, so there's a lot of anti Semitism in the kind of we love the Jews, we really, really love the Jews attitude of Christian nationalists. But, you know, more recently also, you know, there can be even a turn away from that. You know, like, that was always like a kind of contingent phenomenon that, you know, arose in a very particular kind of post war sort of neoliberal context. And the world is changing. And there's a lot of Christian nationalists now who, you know, who might say, let's just drop the Judeo and let's have a Christian nationalist movement in the US and in the west. And they're a lot more skeptical of US Support for Israel. And, you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's not surprising, I guess, if you look at the history of anti Semitism and, you know, you know, from the Crusades onward or the Spanish Inquisition, you know, whenever you have triumphalist Christian movements that are allied with state power, it goes south for the Jews pretty quickly. In many ways, it's not surprising that, you know, today the majority Christian country we live in as it gets more chauvinist, you know, Judaism has long been kind of a main sort of theological other for Christianity. And so all those tropes are coming back that Jews killed Jesus or you know, or Jews don't worship the same God that we do. Like it can be very easy to otherize Jews as well as obviously, you know, Muslims and you know, and non believers and every other, you know, and Christians who don't meet their definition of the good Christian. So it's yeah.

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Daniel Kurd (11:52)

So this is maybe A dumb question. Excuse my ignorance, but is Candice Owens a Christian nationalist? Like, would she be classified as such?

Ben Lorber (11:59)

Yeah, definitely. She's Catholic. I mean, that's the thing. There's, you know, so many varieties of Christian nationalists. But yeah, you know, she's definitely Christianity. To be at the center of American public life and for the American social order to be structured by a far right vision of Christianity.

Daniel Kurd (12:15)

Yeah, okay, so I was on the right track there because I did not listen to her interview with Norman Finkelstein, who is a American Jewish professor and writer who has been quite vocal on the Palestine issue and written a number of books. But, you know, he's generally seen as on the left. He goes on Kendace Owens podcast and does a very long interview. And I, I could only stomach the snippets that the Jewish Currents podcast put out, but that's when I was really confused hearing some of those tropes that she was using. I recognize now that they are Christian nationalist tropes, anti Semitic tropes about, like Jews wanting to enslave Christians. And I, I had no idea that people believed these things. Anyway, it's a larger problem, I guess. But yeah, so Candace Owens host, Norman Finkelstein, Tucker Carlson has been repeatedly hosting Palestinian Christians. So there was like a nun and there was a priest. Yeah, so, yeah. What's going on here? How can we explain this kind of merging?

Ben Lorber (13:22)

Yeah, it's very confusing when parts of the far right can adopt talking points that sound from one angle to be left wing. You know, in some ways it's, it's not just related to Israel, Palestine. I mean, you know, Trump ran both times on a kind of economic populist platform. You know, and he also, you know, as he said recently when he met Zoran Mandani, he said, we agree on some things. You know, some Bernie voters went to me. So, you know, the far right is always trying to kind of, you know, co opt some sort of, you know, left wing ideas at times. But yeah, you know, around Palestine, I think since the start of the genocide, you know, MAGA pundits like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson have, you know, started to get, you know, very critical of the U. S. Israel relationship. And, you know, some of it is mobilizing, you know, genuine outrage at the images of the genocide, all of our films every day, obviously. And some of it also is part of this kind of America First. We don't want any of our taxpayer money to fund, you know, foreign wars. And that's, you know, very reasonable and understandable. You Know, the way they bring in anti Semitism is to say, you know, the reason the US Supports Israel, it's not because of imperialism or colonialism, you know, because that would indict their own, you know, nationalism. But, you know, it's because of a Jewish cabal. Right? So, you know, they focus on Jewish Zionists in the US and in Israel, obviously, who they think have kind of yet enslaved the US Government or their, you know, outsized global power, you know, over finance and media, is the root cause of the US Support for Israel. So that's what they mobilize and they bring into it a lot of Christian nationalist themes. Right. Because if the US Is a Christian nation and here's this state with, you know, a Star David on its flag that claims to speak for world Jewry, it's easy to kind of then use those Christian tropes and say, oh, this is the same old Jewish enemy kind of, you know, rearing its head again. So, yeah, it's a mess.

Daniel Kurd (15:10)

Yeah, it's a mess. Yeah. Very conveniently removing American complicity from the equation. Removing empire from the equation. It's been disturbing, I have to say, obviously, on the basic level, like, this sounds trite to even say, but obviously, like, rising anti Semitism has been disturbing. But then it's also been disturbing, kind of the mental gymnastics that are going into some people or some people are using to justify this turn on the far right, as if the Tucker Carlsons and the Candace Owens of the world genuinely care about Palestine. And so there is this ridiculous assumption that, oh, we can. We can turn people on the right. And I think you see it also with, like, the discussion that's emerged after Mamdani met with Trump. It's like, oh, the. You know, it's not really a left or right. It's a bottom top. I was like, what are we talking about here? What are we talking about? This is not.

Ben Lorber (16:11)

Yeah.

Daniel Kurd (16:12)

What was your definition of the left? Exactly?

Ben Lorber (16:14)

I think we have to remember that these are the same, you know, forces who are, you know, rounding up and deporting our neighbors and who are, you know, jailing, you know, Mahmoud Khalil and so many other dissidents. And they, yeah, they want to see a future vision of America that has no room for. For most of us in it. So it's. It's important to keep that in mind.

Daniel Kurd (16:33)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have this mess. We have the right wing really trying to weaponize this moment and using allegations of anti Semitism to attack universities, to attack political dissidents, et Cetera, et cetera. And then we have kind of the establishment Jewish organizations, organizations like the Anti Defamation League, the adl. What's happening with them? What are they doing in this moment?

Ben Lorber (16:57)

Yeah, I mean, they're very complicit. You know, the short answer is they're really part of it. I mean, since the first Trump administration really long before. I mean, if you want to really, you know, tell the long story of how the ADL has been complicit with Empire, it goes, you know, at least back to, you know, the 70s when the ADL was, you know, spying on left wing groups alongside on fascist groups, or, you know, even all the way back to the 50s when the ADL was complicit in the McCarthyist, you know, purges and could have supported the state's actions against, you know, the Rosenbergs. So we can go way back. But, you know, basically the reason these organizations exist in many ways, like, so much of their funding priorities and their programming, you know, has become about, you know, defense of Israel. Like so many American institutions, they're hollowed out. They're not democratic. You know, they don't reflect the priorities of most American Jews. You know, they're, you know, bought and sold by a small donor class. And, you know, so they have made combating BDS and supporting Israel the entire, you know, focus of their existence. And, yeah, you know, somewhere around the last year, last two years, you know, probably since October 7th, you know, people like Jonathan Greenblatt at the head of the ADL made the calculation that they're going to go ride or die on teaming up with whoever they can to suppress the movement for Palestinian freedom. And so, yeah, they've been cozying up to the Trump administration more than to give them a teeny bit of credit. In the first Trump administration, they were saying, if there's a Muslim ban, sign me up, was Jonathan Greenblatt's tweet in 2017. They did put up some resistance, even though they were also still quite bad in a lot of ways. But now they're just all in. They're trying to curry whatever access they can to the Trump administration, even to the extent of taking down their anti bias initiatives, shuttering a lot of their anti extremism work, saying they aren't going to teach critical race theory. They're completely just trying to keep a seat at the table. But the irony is the MAGA movement doesn't even want them there. Some people in the administration are probably still working with the adl, but you have FBI Director Kash Patel saying, we aren't going to work with you because now they think the ADL is anti Christian, you know, which is itself kind of anti Semitic. So it's, yeah, it's, they're kind of in this losing battle where they're trying to ally with, you know, rising fascism in the hope that they can find Jewish safety that way and, you know, can suppress, you know, Israel's critics. But it's a, it's a fool's bargain. We're seeing that play out in real time right now.

Daniel Kurd (19:27)

I mean, I've never seen such a self own in my life, like a self goal, you know, where they defended Elon Musk and the Nazi salute and then Elon Musk calls them an anti Christian organization and like, and calls them out. And I mean, we have all of these kind of outrageous incidents. But the fact that the ADL kind of stepped away from its civil rights work, very clearly stepped away from its civil rights work. They missed the moment.

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Daniel Kurd (22:14)

You're gonna love it. Jewish Currents has been publishing on this. I mean, lots of people, yourself included, have been publishing on this about how the ADL's like audits are skewed.

Ben Lorber (22:30)

Yeah.

Daniel Kurd (22:30)

For lack of a better term. I'm wondering if maybe you can speak to that.

Ben Lorber (22:34)

Yeah, no, that was a great piece by actually the co author of my book, Shane Burley, you know, wrote that along with Naomi Bennett, who's another great analyst. You know, really looking at their data and, you know, seeing that, you know, in their 2020, I think it was 2023 audit of anti Semitic incidents, they included like just a huge, you know, swath of pro Palestine rallies. If you go to their data, it. It says, you know, speakers chanted, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. And so that was an anti Semitic incident according to the adl. And this was, you know, hundreds of incidents, you know, including some rallies that were led by Jewish Voice for Peace. Right. So now you have, you know, Jewish groups who are anti Semitic for, you know, for calling for Palestinian freedom. So it's just, you know, that kind of counting, which, it's a departure from previous years. So even methodologically, it's. It's very unprofessional. They get to say, oh, there's been a startling rise in anti Semitism. They're expanding their own parameters for what counts as an incident, you know, so they're kind of cooking their own books. But it does a disservice to the, you know, to the real fight against, you know, anti Semitism. I think one thing that Shane and Naomi pointed out in that article is that, you know, there is a rise and in white supremacist groups like Patriot Front, who are holding rallies and harassing Jewish institutions alongside harassing trans folks and black communities and many other groups. And that's ironically undercounted in the audit. And if you have data that equates real neo Nazism to people saying Palestine should be free. It just discredits the entire fight against anti Semitism. So it's dangerous to democracy, it's dangerous to the movement for justice in Palestine, and it's also dangerous for American Jews and our attempt to actually get a grasp on the contours of, you know, anti Semitism that is rising in this moment.

Daniel Kurd (24:16)

Yeah, there is always this conflation I see over and over with the far right and people who speak on Palestine issues. I mean, this is not exactly analogous, but Sarah Hurwitz, the Obama speechwriter.

Ben Lorber (24:31)

Oh, my God.

Daniel Kurd (24:32)

Has recently gone viral. I'll link the video, but I'll leave people to. To make their own judgments. But the part that I'm referencing here is when she puts, like, in the same bre, Nick Fuentes and Al Jazeera reporting. And it's. And again, it's this kind of conflation between, like, actual extremists and people who just happen to say things you'd find uncomfortable saying. And, you know, there's also this kind of trend of discounting Jewish voices that aren't part of the establishment. So, like, Jewish Voice for Peace is seen as an extremist group and not within the fold, which of course, gives the far right, including President Trump, the ability to decide who is Jewish enough for their purposes. And when he's annoyed with Chuck Schumer, he calls him a Palestinian, which, by the way, is offensive on many levels to me because I don't want Chuck Schumer to be a Palestinian. But, yeah, it's just really, really quite a mess.

Ben Lorber (25:29)

Yeah. You know, I was reminded when you said that of, you know, groups like Canary Mission, you know, do the same thing. They list, you know, first. First generation black and Brown college students as anti Semites, and then they list Nick Fuente. And it's, you know, it's a way for them to kind of protect their brand of, like, look, we are going after real anti Semitism, but it's this, you know, totally discredited notion that, you know, anti Semitism or all extremism really is like, you know, kind of an equal threat on both sides of the political spectrum that is just, you know, doesn't meet our moment at all. It's very clear that, that anti Semitism is much stronger and more deadly, you know, on the radical right. And the data supports this not only in the US but around the world. And yeah, so this kind of discredited centrist notion that both sides are equally threatening is just not Suiting us for not only around anti Semitism, but it's the same thing you hear from people like Chuck Schumer about extremism more broadly. So it's not the way to meet this moment of rising fascism to say, oh, both sides are bad. It's just very outdated and dangerous.

Daniel Kurd (26:30)

Yeah, it's absolutely obfuscating. Yeah. So for me, in the bubbles that I live in, I feel like the adl, because of the last couple of years, has really discredited itself. And there have been, you know, critics from within, kind of the American, Jewish, even establishment, I would say, from your perspective, of course, we're going to link your book. So first and foremost, read Ben and Shane's book. But who do you think is speaking on antisemitism in a rigorous way now, like Nexus Foundation? Like who. Who would you say has a better grasp of this situation?

Ben Lorber (27:04)

Yeah, I think the Nexus project is very useful. It's a coalition of academics who are actually specializing in antisemitism. And they have a really rigorous attempt to really give people guidelines that can help to parse where antisemitism is and where it isn't. And they really stress in every incident that you come across, every question, you have to pay attention to context and to really. And take a close look at what people are saying. To separate, as you said earlier, to separate the discomfort that, for example, a Jewish student who's Zionist on a campus might feel if they hear Free Palestine, be able to distinguish that discomfort from actual danger or from actual anti Semitism. So I think they do a really nuanced job at it. There's an organization called Diaspora alliance that's not always the very public, but they do a lot of important work, you know, helping folks, you know, to grapple with these issues, especially if you're being, you know, hit with these kind of false charges of anti Semitism. And then, yeah, I'd say Jewish Currents puts out great resources. Yeah. So those are three that I think of that I look to. But I think, you know, right now we need, you know, I go back and forth over, do we need another better adl? But ultimately, you know, I think we need new institutions and new projects that are able to look at anti Semitism in an intersectional way, to see the connections between antisemitism and anti blackness, anti immigrant xenophobia, to see how antisemitism fuels authoritarianism and makes all of us less safe. I think there are some exciting projects coming down the pike that people will know about soon. But I do think we need New institutions and new resources for this.

Daniel Kurd (28:43)

Yeah. Ariel angel, the editor in chief of Jewish Currents, wrote, I don't know, it feels like a lifetime ago at this point, but about the need for new Jewish institutions. And I think this is a, you know, from the outside looking in, you know, not my, not my discussion perhaps, but it seems like this is an unnecessary component because there's always this tension between exceptionalizing antisemitism and then not meeting the moment or seeing it as part and parcel of fascism connected to other, you know, ideologies as well.

Ben Lorber (29:16)

Yeah, yeah. No, it's so often exceptionalized as this kind of unique hatred that's, you know, outside of all history. And it's the oldest hatred, you know, and it's the, you know, the worst hatred right now. There's, you can all these reasons why, you know, not only Jewish leaders but, you know, leaders of all establishment, you know, bipartisan politics kind of frame antisemitism in this exceptional way. But it doesn't serve anyone. So I do think we need, yeah, like you're saying, like a rigorous ground analysis that puts it in, in the context of Christian supremacy, of white supremacy, you know, of Islamophobia that traces these, you know, these connections and neither exceptionalizes it, you know, nor minimizes it, but, you know, sees it as part of this fabric of rising authoritarianism. For sure.

Daniel Kurd (29:59)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So in the show notes, I'm going to link all the stuff you mentioned as well as, you know, Diaspora alliance and Nexus Project work. There's also an academic article if people are interested, by Dove Waxman that I find pretty useful. But yeah, I'll put that all in the show notes. Thank you so much, Ben. This has been extremely helpful and horrifying, but helpful still.

Ben Lorber (30:19)

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me on. Great talking to you.

Daniel Kurd (30:22)

Take care. It Could Happen. Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for. It Could Happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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