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Hazel Acacia (2:23)

Coal Zone Media.

Margaret Killjoy (2:29)

Book Club

Steven Monticelli (2:32)

Book Club Book Club.

Margaret Killjoy (2:37)

Book Club. Book Club. Hello and welcome to Cool Zone Media Book Club, the only book club where actually this week you had to have done the reading for yourself because I didn't do it for you. This is actually the way that every book club works. So this is. Now we're more like a traditional book club, but I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. As you may have noticed, incapable of synchronizing their chants with Me are my guests who have not failed at anything else, including Steven Monticelli, who's occasional host of It Could Happen Here. And also Hazel Acacia, who helps out with the book club. How are y'?

Hazel Acacia (3:12)

All? I'm doing all right, Margaret, how are you?

Margaret Killjoy (3:15)

There's a cat. I am happy.

Hazel Acacia (3:18)

He's really cute, really sweet.

Margaret Killjoy (3:19)

Recording cat is a good recording cat. I also have my Ursula Le Guin cat mug with me. My commemorative Le Guin mug that I'm going to now set down on the counter and make too much noise. Steve, how are you?

Steven Monticelli (3:34)

I'm doing all right.

Margaret Killjoy (3:36)

The reason I had you on today that you're already aware of. But I'm going to let the audience know. Dear audience, this is not a regular episode of Cool Zone Media Book Club because I am not reading you a story. Instead, we are going to talk about stories that you may have already read or you may go out and read now, in which case it'll be a little confusing. We're going to talk about the work of an author that means a lot to me. We're going to talk about two stories by the perpetual anarchist matriarch herself, who would hate being called a matriarch, Ursula K. Le Guin. If you haven't read those who Walked Away from Omelas and the Day before the Revolution or haven't read them recently, you might want to pause here and go take a look. They are very short and they are on the Internet for free. Or you can resign yourself to spoilers and forever hold your peace about it. I don't make your choices for you because as Le Guin herself once said, an anarchist is one who, choosing, accepts the responsibility of choice. You, listener, are accepting the responsibility of your choice to listen without having read the story that that quote comes from. Anyway, what do y' all think of the stories?

Steven Monticelli (4:56)

I think they are excellent examples of what the short story form can do. And they really get to the heart of, I think, what Ursula Le Guin was interested in in terms of politics and ideology. And they're just beautifully done. They're fun to read.

Hazel Acacia (5:16)

Yeah, these are really gorgeous stories. There's some really excellent prose she uses, like description really, really well and effectively in these stories to build out a world that you don't need to know the name of the city that Laia Odo lives in, but you can really feel, you know, what it's like to work to liberate a city for your whole life and how that changes how you interact with it as you walk through.

Margaret Killjoy (5:43)

We're going to get more into the themes of it as we start reading Reddit comments from you all, dear listeners from the it could happen here Reddit. And so I'm sure we'll have an awful lot more to say. But yeah, I just, I love. I feel bad because I'm just like. I just like Le Guin. Everything is good. These stories are amazing. In particular, the Day before the Revolution is one of my favorite stories ever written, and it's probably my favorite Le Guin story, and it just gets at so many things so beautifully. It is both an amazing piece just on aging and aging within a movement, but also like one of the more interesting micro analyses of anarchism that I've ever read. And it means different things to me. I've read it twice. I read it once a long time ago, and then I've read it just recently. And I love how I get different things out of it at different times. And I know I'm going to get more out of it soon. To recap these two stories for the audience, here is just the raw spoilers so that people have a chance of any idea of what we're talking about. The Ones who Walked Away from Omelas AKA the story that I always try and call those who Walked Away from Omelas, but that's not its title. Its title is the Ones who Walked Away from Omelas is a story about a perfect society. And it is critiquing the very idea of there being a perfect society. And it's like basically being like, all right, imagine a perfect society. Oh, you imagine a different society than I do, then imagine the one that you want to imagine. But there's a kid in the Omelas hole. That's not what it's called in the story, but that's what history has decided it is called. There's a kid who is being tortured by neglect in just a horrible fashion, just absolute atrocity. And that's what allows the entire society to exist. And then some people are like, I'm willing to accept this. And other people are like, fuck all this. And they walk away, whether metaphorically or physically. Is that a decent. Missing any key points from that one?

Hazel Acacia (7:46)

Yeah, one of the main things that Ursula's playing with in the first half of the story, where she's describing this beautiful, perfect society, is like, sort of pushing the reader on how much they're willing to accept a utopia. And she says, you know, like, do you accept Omelas? Do you accept how beautiful it is? Do you accept the Children running around. Do you accept the kites in the sky? And specifically, that's why she introduces the child. And in the whole, is to play with, like, how much utopia readers are willing to believe in. Like, there has to always be a catch. And that's, you know, one of the interpretations of what it means to walk away from Omelas is to believe that there doesn't have to be a catch, that you can just. That a perfect utopia could exist out there and you don't have to hang the joy and the mirth on suffering.

Margaret Killjoy (8:41)

Yeah, yeah.

Steven Monticelli (8:43)

And I really loved the way she sort of ends it. It's not just the walking away, but this idea that, you know, they're walking away to something that's perhaps even harder to imagine.

Margaret Killjoy (8:55)

Yeah. And specifically, like, I'm not going to tell you what happens to the people who walk away, even though they are the titular. I think that word is pronounced funny characters, those who walk away from Omelas. All right. And so the second story, the Day before the Revolution, is not literally set in the world because Omelas is set in kind of a no place. Right. A utopia meaning no place. I swear, I know things. But in the introduction to the Day before the Revolution, at least in the zine version that we have been linking people to, Le Guin offers a couple paragraphs of introduction and describes the main character who is one of the primary theorists of anarchism within the revolutionary society that she is in. It's a prequel to the book the Dispossessed, which is the 1970s heterogeneous atopia. Oh, I can't remember what she called it. Anyway, she's like, it's a utopia. It's not a utopia when she describes anarchism in that book. But you don't have to read the Dispossessed to read and enjoy this story. I would argue, actually, this story is easier to read and easier to enjoy than the Dispossessed, which is one of my favorite books, but it's not as short and delicious as this particular story. Anyway, at the end of the introduction describes our main character, Leia. Do you think. How are y' all pronouncing this name, saying Laia? Laia. Let's go with Laia. Laia is one of those who walked away from Omelas. And I love. To me, this is the key of all of my understandings of both stories is that one sentence that she writes, because. All right, well, okay, I'll get to that. This story is about Laia Odo, who is The Kropotkin of their world in some ways. Right. But is specifically, by the time the story starts, a 72 year old woman who is very aware of her age, has recently survived a stroke, whose husband and love of her life is dead. And she is watching the revolution begin to unfold, taken on by young people all around her.

Hazel Acacia (11:09)

And.

Margaret Killjoy (11:09)

And she's thinking about her own role within that revolution, what she has left to offer, how she kind of just wants to be herself and go for walks, but instead she's like, well, I guess I accept the responsibility of the choices that I've made and instead I'm this figure who has to write letters and be a little bit of a figurehead, even though our whole goddamn point is we don't do that shit. Here I am doing it. And also along the way a nice young, sweet 30 year old man comes and fucks her and then does her transcription for her. And it's good shit. I don't know.

Hazel Acacia (11:42)

Yeah. And that story specifically ends with they know that the revolution is coming. There's like one of the outland provinces is seceding and they're planning a big rally, a big general strike for the next day. And she's at the meeting and people are like, can you speak? And she's again going through this journey and it's kind of like a main theme of the story is that she is not a very good anarchist. You know, they all grew up in the movement. Like they are all so free of shame and they love their long hair. And she's like, I don't, I just kind of miss my husband. I said all of these things, but you guys are the ones who have taken it and run with it. Yeah. And she specifically says like, I won't be here tomorrow.

Margaret Killjoy (12:25)

Yeah.

Hazel Acacia (12:26)

And at the end she walks up the stairs to her bedroom, which is always a thing that she's dreading throughout the story, and kind of walks into a field of these flowers that she never had the time to learn the name for and really peacefully surrenders to her death. I mean, it's up for interpretation. You might interpret that differently. I interpret it as surrendering to death, but also surrendering to the new world. And it's also kind of deeply a story about how the difference between revolutionaries and the people who grew up in the worlds that they've created and the things that will sort of never be able to be bridged. The new world is birthed, but it's not a world for her. She is at her heart a rebel. She is throughout the story like rebelling against her aging body and telling herself, no, I can't drown in self pity. I can't succumb to my age. She's always been that person and is ushering along the revolution, but won't be there tomorrow.

Margaret Killjoy (13:25)

Yeah.

Steven Monticelli (13:27)

Something I found really charming about her rebellion is that it even extended to her position in the movement and the responsibility of that choice that she made long ago that carried forward. And now she's resisting the image of being this matriarch of the revolution and is exhausted by these young people who want to just come and look at her, even though she feels like she has nothing more to teach them than what she's already written in her books. So it was a beautiful character study, really, that helps bridge the allegorical mode that Omelas is written through.

Margaret Killjoy (14:04)

Yeah. And the reason that I find so interesting, the line something like, you know, Laia is one of the people who has walked away from Omelas is that a lot of interpretations of Omelas and a lot of critiques of Omelas come down to the idea of like, well, why don't you stay and fight instead? Right. And I think the fact that Omelas is written, as you said, in an allegorical style is such an important part of this, because Laia is specifically called someone who walked away from Omelas. Laia has not walked away. And it's really funny because Le Guin is a pacifist anarchist, or was, or I don't know, whatever. Death is just going in another direction. So I'm going to use is as a pacifist anarchist. Right. And there's sort of an implicit, like, these characters are like, you know, not necessarily like violent revolutionaries, but she's describing her actions and she mined a, like, shipyard and she's like, kicked police officers. She's like, pissing on statues. Like, she's not walking away to go set up a society somewhere else. Obviously, Inara in the Dispossessed is essentially, the anarchists have kind of had to flee and set up their own thing. But there is this, like, stay and fight. And so I actually think that in the allegorical style of Omelas, to walk away from Omelas is to walk away from the acceptance, is to walk away from the, like, social peace that is undergirded by all of this horrible shit. And so I think that actually in a Le Guin style, you can stay and fight is walking away from Omelas. Okay. And another part I love about the day before the revolution is she's like, oh, when I was like 22, I came into the cities with my head full of really boring ideas like better wages and vote for women. You know, like, oh, what we cared about was money and power. That's not what matters. Like, I love this idea of anarchism as this transcendent idea that goes sort of not just like capturing these things, but going beyond these things. That's my big takeaway and what you can't walk away from because it's too sweet and is probably undergirded by suffering. I mean, it probably isn't undergird whatever I'm allowed to say legally. There's ads. They're here. Here they are.

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To begin with, there was a large

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Margaret Killjoy (20:21)

And we're back.

Hazel Acacia (20:25)

Yeah, and I think this is a good time to maybe start transitioning into some of the Reddit discussion. I want to bring in a comment From Reddit user gts84. This is the great thing about doing a Reddit thing is I have these wonderful, thoughtful answers from people with names like GTS84. Yeah, GTS84. Like there's Pegleg Hippie on my notes Doc. Y' all are so great. I'm so grateful for all of the wise words that you've shared. Thank you for making this what it is. We're talking about walking away and we're talking about staying and fighting. So GCS84 says. One thing I will always find fascinating are the people who think that, quote, walking away is literally leaving and insist that they would rescue the child and fight. Yet when you interrogate these people about their own actions when it comes to things like smartphone use or chocolate consumption. As to examples of products utterly dependent on child exploitation, their own actions don't line up with their insistencies that they would rescue the child. This is not to judge them for those choices, but to point out that Omelas is less fiction than they supposed and that they have been making a choice to stay for a long time. Of course, there is a discussion about what walking away actually entails and to what extent it might include fighting. Are people who flee the state to live in the woods Thinking back to Cool People episodes about the Great Dismal Swamp, those who walked away, would you include people in prison for fighting back against state oppression? People who lived in the trees to try and stop Cop City? Yeah. And I think that this, again, just building on this contradiction around what it means to walk away. What Le Guin is setting up with this metaphor is walking away fighting, or is that a third choice? One of the things that I have enjoyed about this story is that it always seemed to me like the right answer was to stay and fight. You know, like we're given this assumption that all of the joy and beauty of this world is built on the torture of this child. But it seems to me that people willing to torture a child might not be reliable narrators.

Margaret Killjoy (22:33)

Yeah, that's true.

Hazel Acacia (22:35)

So, you know, and Le Guin is setting you up, this dichotomy, this binary choice. And it seems so clearly the option is to break out of that binary and have a revolution. And I wonder if that is part of what she is doing, is she is, like, trying to intentionally get people to flex that muscle and to think about where else they could flex that muscle.

Steven Monticelli (22:56)

You know, I mean, I think, you know, the pairing of the stories answers one of those questions pretty clearly, with the bridge being Le Guin's own words and the couple paragraphs we mentioned earlier. You know, I think it's in at least Le Guin's mind that someone like Laia is someone who walked away. But also, you could view what she's done as fighting, as being imprisoned and resisting the oppression that she's faced. So in that sense, I think it takes many forms. But that's why I think of it as an allegory, right? I mean, it's less about the actual act of walking away, it's more about what that represents. Because within the boundaries of this allegorical frame, we have the choice to either accept the social peace and all those nice things that rely on that suffering, or to refuse it as the basic assumption that doesn't necessarily mean actually removing yourself from the world, because that's not possible within the context of actually doing anything in the world.

Margaret Killjoy (24:02)

And it's interesting because Le Guin has explored a lot the ideas of can you just literally walk away? In other pieces where you have a book. It's been a couple years since I read it. I think it's called the Eye of the Heron. And it's a book about there's some people living on an alien planet and one group of people is being oppressed by the other people. But they don't want to fight back, literally because they're pacifists. I hope I'm getting this right. Again, it's been a couple years and they just literally walk away and they're like, fuck off into the wilderness. In kind of a way that's a little bit reminiscent of what the not actually oppressed puritans thought they were doing when they came over to colonize North America. But you know, this sort of like walking into terra nullis kind of idea is explored in that book. Right. But you have other books that, you know, the word for world is forest, which is a anti colonial militant struggle allegory about Vietnam that Star wars stole the name Endor from. And the entire third book in the original trilogy of Star wars movies is just a weird, let's call it an homage, but it's written by a pacifist. But it is describing using violence to defend your homeland. And so it's interesting to me because also she's also obsessed in her work about the idea of coming home. Right. And she talks about it in the Day before the Revolution. The real journey is the return home is something that she's very interested in. And so how does that relate to walking away if the real journey is to return home? And so I think she's kind of doing both. I think sometimes she means literally, like, I don't know, man, just walk out of there, you know, like hit the bricks. Cool. Cher Zone style with the skeleton, you

Hazel Acacia (25:51)

know, security guard, Dashere zone.

Margaret Killjoy (25:54)

Da share zone. That's it. Yeah.

Hazel Acacia (25:56)

I can also see this in the Lathe of Heaven, which is not in the Hanish cycle. It's sort of a one off book. It's about a guy whose dreams come true and has like fucked up Psychiatrist, which is a kind of different exploration of the unintended consequences that happen when you try to make the world better.

Steven Monticelli (26:16)

Yeah. And I mean in the Dispossessed, which is the technical sequel to the Day before the Revolution, there's the image of the circular wall they have for the landing pad where the ship from the planet comes and lands. And kind of the fundamental question around that wall is, is it to actually keep. Keep out this ship which could land anywhere, or is it really to keep the society that they have on this moon from, you know, this symbolic way to get back to Earth, or not with Earth, but this Earth like planet and the relationship with that Earth like planet and the political factions that are there, it's like, still entangled. They're not fully separated. They didn't actually fully walk away from, you know, this bigger system that they're operating within.

Margaret Killjoy (27:10)

Oh, that's true. And like, one of the whole points. It's been a couple years since I read that book, but one of the whole points is we need to coordinate our science across national borders, even though we have, like, wildly different ideological positions.

Steven Monticelli (27:21)

Correct.

Hazel Acacia (27:23)

I want to bring in a Reddit post here as well. From words, words, woods, dogs, to kind of, I don't know, bring us back a little bit into what does it mean to walk away. I think it does a disservice to the story to interpret walking away as one big, solitary act. My takeaway is the big question. Do you try to ignore what you can't unknow? We can ask ourselves this a million different ways in everyday life. We all know that cell phones are awful for labor exploitation, environmental extraction, enabling of big tech. But what do we do when we feel like we need a cell phone? Do we buy the new one that our provider will give us a good deal or a big payment plan on? Or do we spend time looking for a used one that could last us as long as possible? Living our values isn't just something that happens in big, seemingly consequential moments. It happens every single day in all of those little ways. You can insert that question into what kind of housing we choose, transportation, our food choices, the kind of job we work. Making ethical choices often means taking a vow of our poverty, working more and often harder, and being looked at as a weirdo by many around you. To me, that's what walking away is. It's choosing the path that often feels lonely when everyone else around you is literally buying into it all.

Steven Monticelli (28:43)

There's a lot of truth to what they're saying. The idea of walking away in my mind when I consider the pairing of these stories is it's that it's not just this single monumental act. It's. It's like a beginning of a change in the way that you live your life.

Margaret Killjoy (29:00)

Oh.

Steven Monticelli (29:01)

And what happens after that is kind of, you know, up to you and the responsibility of your choice. And then we see that later, you know, with Laia and, you know, she's grappling with all of her choices and is kind of criticizing herself for being A bad anarchist quote, unquote, and the imperfectness of her choices. But she's still leaning into the responsibility of those choices, whether they're all perfectly ethical or not, or constrained by other things that are larger than her. She's striving to move, at least towards something that's better. And so I think that it's an individual choice. I think, also, I think that's why it's depicted as lone people walking away. Sure, you can learn something in the context of the society you're in, but it is really about the choices that you make as a person. If you at all believe that individuality or singular consciousness is a phenomenon that's not some sort of illusion. But let's not talk about science,

Margaret Killjoy (30:05)

okay? So I love this idea because. Okay, I love the idea that walking away is a solitary action because only you as an individual can do that. Breaking. You can break from Omelas and walk away, but coming home as a collective action, right? And that's even something that Laia is almost a little bit struggling with. I mean, Laia was absolutely part of a whole crew of revolutionaries in her day, but she's, like, watching the fact that this is, like, spread. It is such a collective thing now, right? Whereas, like, she. A lot of her work, you know, the writing of words is more solitary than the average job. It's not truly solitary. That's nonsense. And I don't think anyone worth listening to truly believes it's a totally solitary action. But it is a more solitary art than most. And that's what Laia was getting up to, right? Was like, alone in a fucking cell, you know? And, yeah, I really like this idea that walking away is the individual. Like, you know, you gotta take the pill from the. This is a metaphor that no one's done anything bad with. There's this movie that not a lot of people have seen, and that two trans women wrote. That's an allegory being trans. It was called the Network or something like that.

Hazel Acacia (31:19)

For the Matrix.

Margaret Killjoy (31:20)

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Monticelli (31:22)

The weave, the tapestry.

Margaret Killjoy (31:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something. One of these things. But, yeah, this idea that, like, in order to break out of this thing, that is something you do. Solitary, but then coming back, collective action. I'm into it. Hazel and I were talking a little bit earlier about the sort of intentionality of writing where, like, one of the points of writing in an allegorical style is, like. I don't think Le Guin thought about all of this shit before she wrote this. She wrote a thing and Then her words were exposed to millions of people. And, you know, and that's one of the beauties of writing.

Hazel Acacia (31:54)

Yeah, good stories are smarter than their authors. And I think this story is really fucking smart. And I think that Le Guin is really fucking smart. And I think that it takes a smart author to make a really smart, really smart story. But I want to bring in another red comment.

Margaret Killjoy (32:08)

Yeah, let's do it.

Hazel Acacia (32:09)

This is from Count Pickman, who says, I don't think I'd have the strength, willpower, whateverness, that is necessary to make that choice. But I think that part of that is because walking away in the story is a solitary choice. Those people in the trees, in Cop City and in prison for fighting the state, they make those choices with other people. Follow. My closest friends would walk away from Omelas with me. Could I do it then? I think then what I was incapable of doing alone, I would do in a heartbeat. That makes me wonder, why does everyone who walks away in the story do it alone? Le Guin writes, each one goes alone. Youth or girl, man or woman, do they have to go alone, or do they all individually choose to? It makes me sad that they are alone. I have always felt that the only way we can do anything at all, especially when we create new ways to be, is together. I will have to think more about what it means to walk away.

Margaret Killjoy (33:06)

And I want to say I a little bit cheated all of my thoughts that I'm coming up with now. I have read the Reddit. You all absolutely influenced the shit out of all my thinking around this stuff.

Hazel Acacia (33:17)

Yeah, you guys fucking killed it.

Steven Monticelli (33:18)

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I don't mean to be too critical of the commenter who, you know, read the story and gave us their great thoughts, but it's not so literal. I think to even be contemplating this signifies that you've kind of already made that choice. And it dovetails with what you were saying, Margaret. It's about returning home. Is that collective action? Because it's not like the people in the story. It's not like they don't see these people walking away either. And so if you saw your friends doing it, I'm sure you would also make that choice. But I do think, ultimately, yeah, it's just kind of. It's a representation of that. That rupture that has to happen internally within one person, and that it's something that you have to choose.

Hazel Acacia (34:04)

And I think, you know, the decision to leave is one that you could make on your own, but the leaving doesn't have to. The leaving does not necessarily have to be individual.

Margaret Killjoy (34:14)

Yeah, yeah.

Hazel Acacia (34:16)

And I think. I don't know. I'm interested in that, in the tension between those things.

Margaret Killjoy (34:22)

All right, I have another Reddit comment I want to read from availablerise669 I have heard this story summarized as a torture of a child to maintain happiness for a town before, and I know neglect is a type of torture. I just have always personally found intentional neglect is so much harsher than cruelty of actions or violence. Like when I got told about that case of a girl who was isolated by her parents and grew up unable to speak or become independent. After her rescue, she got saved. People tried to give her a second lease on life, but it failed because of her neglect, she became a case study and an oddity. It was in psychology class in high school and it felt like the worst thing ever. Maybe because violent action seems quicker and at least ends so you can heal. Or if you die, you don't have to feel pain anymore. The citizens who leave because they can't stand being there choose more neglect. They can't stand the foundation, so instead of taking responsibility or fixing it, they leave. I hate that narrative too. I hate that when your home is broken, you leave it, you don't reclaim it, you don't change it, you just abandon it, neglect it, and neglect your responsibilities to it. I believe we can fix things, or try at least. I am also a small actions ripples kind of person. So a deep cut for me is the line about the child not receiving a kind word. Ever so many times a kind word has helped me through a bad day. The child also knew kindness once, but they were taken and put there to be neglected. I also know this isn't the point, but was there a lottery system for when the neglected child dies? Do they just grab a kid off the street? Is it an honor that here to give your child to everyone else's happiness and then do you just leave because you feel guilty and pain that you neglected your parental responsibilities to your kid? Is there a bunch of shitty parents suffering out in the world for their choices? That would be cool, but they probably live in Omelas thinking they're in the right like most shitty parents are in reality. I don't have a lot specifically to say to that one. I just think it's an interesting idea, this idea of like neglecting your responsibility to fix things by just walking away. It's an interesting challenge and it obviously only works if you take walking away in one literal way versus this other way Whatever, you know, like, what does it mean where you're like, all right, fuck it, I'm not using a cell phone. Or like, fuck it, I'm not eating meat. Right. And then you're like, oh, but you're not fixing the problems. And then you're like, I don't know. I just find this an interesting concept.

Hazel Acacia (36:47)

It's also interesting to me because I often think about the state as a way to avoid responsibility and to avoid engaging with the consequences of our actions. You know, like, if some fuck shit's happening and I call the cops, the cops are then going to have to do the violence to mend that instead of me or, you know, taking on the de escalation. You know, I'm. I'm not explaining this very well right now, but.

Margaret Killjoy (37:17)

No, you're passing the buck on to. Yeah, being like, I don't do violence. I just call a guy with a gun to come do my violence and put people into cages.

Hazel Acacia (37:25)

Exactly. Or, you know, like, in a kind of a less fucked up way, like, I'm calling a poorly trained social worker to, like, come and de escalate a situation instead of me taking on the, you know, the onus to de escalate that. And I don't know, I feel. I think of that as like a deep disservice to ourselves to, like, not build skills in talking to people and also as a passing the skills and also passing the violence.

Steven Monticelli (37:56)

Yeah, I mean, I think this, you know, this comment has legitimacy if, you know, you don't kind of take away from the story this idea that this thing is unreformable. And I think that's like one of the fundamental points of an allegory like this is that she's framing this as a thing that cannot actually be fixed. So any attempt at amelioration of this particular thing isn't really going to do what people want to happen.

Margaret Killjoy (38:28)

Yeah, yeah.

Steven Monticelli (38:29)

And, you know, I think a lot of people who are frustrated with capitalism or nation states or what have you, you know, they. They probably think something along similar lines. And then, you know, you get into the whole reformism debate, which I think she's trying to sidestep here.

Margaret Killjoy (38:44)

But you know what we can't sidestep?

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Is it the products and services that support this podcast?

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Certainly we can't sidestep our obligation to running their content.

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Hazel Acacia (42:44)

And to kind of build on that last comment, Steven, that's one of the things that's really interesting to me about the allegory is that it means so many things to so many different people. People. And so we can draw all of these different kinds of conclusions from it. And that's one of the things that's really powerful about fiction, is because it means so many different things to different people, you can get a really wide range of experiences from the story. That's like 1700 words. Like, it's really quite short. Most of what we try to run on the show is like between three and 5,000. Yeah.

Steven Monticelli (43:16)

All right, I'll read one now. So this is from Express Tangerine 42. They wrote this story reminds me of a dark cartoon where people celebrate turning off a baby killing machine, but they only turned it off and never destroyed it or asked who made it and why. It bothered me that the story is based on the lie that everyone is in unity, much like justice for all. This is a fantastic story and I would love to know whether if enough people left, would the greater good no longer be considered worth it? Or if it was a cute animal, how that would change that line. I mean, I think they're just trying to. I think this commenter is just trying to get at this idea of, like, when is enough enough? How many people, you know, have to leave and how would it change if it wasn't a child? And I mean, I think, you know, these are all interesting thoughts. And, you know, I think we kind of get to that a little bit with the paired story later on where it's like it, it seemed like it was just a few people and then it starts to build and build and suddenly there's this whole movement that spans a nation. And so, you know, everybody has their breaking point. And, you know, a child being tortured through neglect seemed like a pretty vivid one that, you know, would trigger most people, given that not everybody, you know, feels the same about animals or something else.

Margaret Killjoy (44:32)

But it triggers most readers, but it doesn't trigger most people. Right. Like readers are people. But like, it doesn't trigger most people to actually walk away.

Steven Monticelli (44:41)

Are they?

Margaret Killjoy (44:43)

Because most people accept this. And that's something that I think most readers understand, that most people do accept it. I think that's one of the most brilliant parts about the story is like, oh, you aren't even going to believe me about the society until I say there's a kid being tortured. And now you believe me. Because we all kind of know that there is darkness in the center, that everything is built on. And we all know that, especially in the colonizing nations, the colonial core. People are fully aware of that now. And it's still. It changes people's behavior, but it doesn't fundamentally break it. Okay, I want to read a piece that made me think a lot. I don't even know if I have any specific responses to it. Prune Tracy wrote, I work as a music therapist and researcher in aged and disability care, and this story really made me think about the assumptions we make about suffering and joy. I find it interesting that the story starts by challenging the reader to subvert the bad habit of thinking only pain is interesting. I think there is a really dark tendency to pedestal pain suffering to the point where people can't envision that life could be worth living with pain suffering rather than accepting that it is part of life that can be beautiful and worthy of joy. Suffering in many stories narratives is like a vicarious catharsis for the audience. True crime. Looking at you, I see this in the way that the reactions to the suffering of the child are described. The people of Omelas are conscious of suffering, but most can't envision that life without the absence of suffering could be worth living for themselves. This really got me thinking about how people who haven't experienced particular types of suffering can be so spooked by the thought of it that they would sooner choose death than to live with it. This comes up a lot in voluntary assisted dying and disability discourse. I see this a lot working with and caring for people who have dementia. It is a fucking brutal disease. But the thing I'm constantly reminded by people with an actual diagnosis is that it is not all doom and gloom. Many people have extraordinary moments of joy, connection, love and personal growth amongst the challenges. And many of the challenges are related to systemic issues rather than the disease itself. Similarly, the way that the people of Omelas rationalize the cost benefit analysis of keeping the child in suffering too degraded to know any real joy recalled for me many ableist assumptions about the value of disabled lives and capacity of disabled people to live rich and wonderful lives. Assumptions that stem from the inability to imagine disability as anything other than suffering and the inability to imagine suffering as anything other than that which should be avoided at all costs. This also made me think about how many people reacted to pandemic lockdowns when they were asked to temporarily give up some freedoms to protect others. People were really quick to minimize the impacts of COVID on disabled people and older people. Their suffering was okay because they already suffered. I'll never forget how quickly non consensual DNRs were quietly rolled out for disabled group homes in some places. I was also really struck by the passage, but to praise despair is to condemn delight. We can no longer describe happy man nor any celebration of joy. In my research work, the focus is almost always on how to reduce suffering or deficit. This is what gets grants and funding. Yet the outcomes that people with lived experiences consistently report is that most meaningful to them are joy and fun. For them, the aim isn't to eliminate their suffering because it cannot be eliminated, but to live with joy and meaning. So I really like that the story simultaneously critiques our inability to imagine or value happiness without suffering while critiquing our need to minimize the suffering in others in order to cope with the knowledge that it exists. And I know that's a lot, but one of my main things that I think about this is again, but comparing these two stories is Omelas is like, I guess we're going to try and do a perfect thing, so we got to put a kid in a hole. And the day before the revolution is like, nah, people want to do drugs and live in the sewers. We can't tell them not to. We're just like, maybe you shouldn't, you know, like, maybe that's a maybe I shouldn't. But whatever. We're not telling people they can't do that. And I know that's not about disability specifically, although it talks about addiction a little bit, but this very specific thing in the day before the revolution where we are not building a society without suffering, we are not building a society without pain. And she's also aging and accepting her own disability as she ages in it. And she's like, I have been stripped down to the foundation, that's all that's left of me. But she's still okay, you know, and she's not okay because like, it's great. Everything's gonna get Healed. It's just like, okay, because it is what it is.

Hazel Acacia (49:29)

I think that comment also reminds me, or it brings up a feeling of the Mark Fisher quote, like it's easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism. And there's so much of that in Omelas and also in the day before the Revolution. But, you know, Le Guin is explicitly asking, like, what are you capable of imagining? What are you capable of believing could be real? And, you know, we can't imagine the utopia without, you know, without there being the dark side. And also, again, the tension with Laio Odo in second one, the day before the Revolution, of how she is a good revolutionary, but she's not a good Odonian. Yeah.

Steven Monticelli (50:14)

All right, here's one about day before the revolution from Pegleg Hippie. They wrote, odo, the thought leader of the anarchists in this world, seems tired and weary in the day before the revolution. At one point she thinks, quote, why the hell did she have to be a good Odonian? I think the allegory from before is present here, too, between Odo and Le Guin. There's an enormous amount of anarchist ideas in the dispossessed. And it must have been a lot of work for Le Guin to put together such a coherent package, all while placing the events of a novel into that world. The weariness of Odo is a reflection of the weariness of the author. I think the day before the Revolution is Le Guin telling her readers that she isn't Odo, or that even if she is, then why the hell does Le Guin have to be a good anarchist? Yeah, I mean, you know, great, great comment. Kind of hits the nail on the head. One of the key themes of the story is this tension between people who play these significant roles in movements, which every movement has them and can teach other people based on what they've learned. And the tendency to put these people up on a pedestal and treat them less as people and more as symbols or figures. And so her resistance to that is really strong in the story. And you mentioned it at the top of the show. I'm sure Le Guin would similarly bristle at, you know, this idea that she's some sort of matriarchal figure of, you know, lefty sci fi, even if she is, you know, a giant. And so I think it's like, you know, an interesting exploration of the reality of, you know, this tension within anybody who is interested in anarchism. It's like there are these people who kind of are giants in movements, but there's this really strong principle that we shouldn't exceptionalize them in these ways that we've seen the downsides of that time and time again throughout history. And so, yeah, I mean, it's just a masterfully well done exploration of that principle through this character study that really humanizes what that tension could look like.

Margaret Killjoy (52:26)

When I was about a wee traveling anarchist who was interested in writing fiction, I interviewed Le Guin about anarchism and fiction. And. And in it I asked her, I was like, are you an anarchist? And she was like, oh, I don't know that I deserve to be. She was like, I don't know that I do enough of the work. And I was like, well, can we claim you? And she was like, yeah, I'd be honored. And I'm paraphrasing here, but not by a lot. And I think it's that like, you know, she's like not an Odonian because she's like, still just kind of trying to live her life, you know. And the her as Laia is real strong. I know that the whole point is that she's not Laia. But there's so many interesting things I think about. When Le Guin died, a bunch of anarchist science fiction writers, we all messaged each other and we were like, what the fuck do we do now? And then the slow consensus we reached was like, oh, well, we got to do it now. And rereading this story hit me really hard thinking about that moment where it was like, the shoes are too big to fill with one person. We're just going to cram a lot of us into there as best as we can. Anyway, that was my self indulgent response to that. And when I first read the day before the Revolution, before I did that interview with her, and I felt more like the. Well, it's just kind of funny to be like, I've read the story twice and I read it once as a young man and now I read it as an old woman and I get to be both. And I am again, I am way closer to 30 than I am to 72, but it still was just really interesting to realize. I read it the first time as this, just like I was just a frontline anarchist who wrote some zines and now a lot more of my work is words. And so it's just fascinating to look at this at two different points of my life. And I think one of the reasons Le Guin is such a masterful writer is that both are presented so, well, like all writers, we have to write the other. And she is not Laia. Right? I'm willing to accept that, you know, but both characters feel very real.

Hazel Acacia (54:47)

I want to share a comment from Count Pimkin. Again, the section that talks about how Odo felt anarchism before she learned about it and elaborated on it. How she felt at the bottom of something. I grew up in a mostly stable middle class household in the us. I did not grow up experiencing the bottom of society. Only by reading the perspectives of those at the bottom and then being a poor adult, did I start to understand. Stupidly, I feel envious of those who grew up with that inherent understanding. I was never rebellious, always a good kid, meaning I was obedient out of fear. I've had to build my own capacity to rebel into myself by surrounding myself with friends who can rebel. Part of my inherent nature seems to be that I am someone who wants to follow a good set of rules where if everyone followed them, everything would turn out okay. Lawful, good, I guess. Or maybe it's related to my autism. But that desire to run up against the limits of the law and process has unraveled until what I am left with is mostly kindness and support for those around me, mainly for other queers. I'm thinking a lot about this, like, reflection on what it means to feel anarchism before you learn it. I think I identify a lot with growing up as like the good kid and needing to learn how to rebel. But the quote that you said at the beginning, Margaret, that an anarchist is one who choosing, accepts the responsibility of choice. I think a lot of people kind of instinctually sort of know that. And I think that can be an easy thread to start to pull on. And it's definitely the thread that kind of pulled me into being here.

Steven Monticelli (56:27)

I mean, I think what attracted me to the idea earlier on, when I first started reading more actual political philosophy and reading things like Le Guin, was that at the core of anarchist ideas. As she says, it's not like the bomb throwing, you know, sort of labeled as terroristic motif. It's about cooperation and choice and responsibility. And I think a lot of people who might consider themselves rule followers are actually people who like cooperation and wish that we lived in a society where more people actually cooperated instead of competed or, you know, were at odds with each other in some ways. And so I think that can be a helpful mindset shift for some people, given that this desire of like, oh, if more people could just follow the right rules, we would all get along it's more of like if we knew how to cooperate, then things would be better.

Hazel Acacia (57:28)

Yeah. Margaret, you and I often talk about blueprint anarchism of like a lot of people think that leftism or anarchism or, you know, idealism, any kind of way is about like finding the right blueprint for society, finding the right way to structure everything, having everything laid out ahead of time. But that actually anarchism is the process of learning carpentry.

Margaret Killjoy (57:56)

Yeah.

Hazel Acacia (57:57)

It's. It's about learning how to. How to build the joints and understand what makes a house work. What you're saying, it's learning about cooperation and coming to a better understanding of oneself and how to relate to other people, building skills. We're not all headed to the same place. We're not all building the same blueprint for the same house. But if we can all start to learn carpentry, if we can practice skills of mutual aid and consensus decision making

Margaret Killjoy (58:25)

and conflict resolution, de escalation, conflict resolution,

Hazel Acacia (58:30)

capacity to deal with risk, like that's what gets us there. Not having everything figured out.

Margaret Killjoy (58:37)

Yeah.

Steven Monticelli (58:39)

I think that the open endedness of anarchism helped Luke Gwyn. Think of it as an imaginative possibility. Something that isn't set as this future perfect ideal state. It's more of like an approach to living and working towards that state where more people are working in cooperation and that doesn't have this like crystallized, you know, perfect design to it. It's something that would probably be in flux.

Margaret Killjoy (59:11)

No, I think we need to just take it all literally. I think that very specifically we need to all grow our hair long, call ourselves Odonians and buy a bank and start a commune in a bank. I actually think that the blueprint has been laid out for us. I think that's why this is sarcasm for anyone who's not really good at discerning that because Le Guin wrote the Dispossessed, a description of an anarchist society and wrote it in the most anarchistic way. Le Guin's a better anarchist than me. When I wrote an anarchist society in my book A Country of Ghosts, it's a little bit more like, oh, it's kind of work out. And Le Guin was like, here's all the fucked up shit with the anarchist society. Isn't that stuff messed up? Isn't it still better than the alternatives? Which still makes it a hard book to hand to people who are interested in anarchism. Because you can't really hand them the dispossessed and be like, this is what we're doing because people will be like, well, one, we don't have a moon, and two, I don't want to be named by a computer.

Steven Monticelli (60:10)

And the whole famine train car sequence in the book was a bit jarring. So. Yeah, that was certainly not the utopian depiction that most people are used to.

Margaret Killjoy (60:24)

Yeah. And yet what a way to still do something that works within the idea of writing utopian fiction and just trying to do it as an anarchist would always be impressed by that.

Steven Monticelli (60:36)

She's emphasizing that it's about choice and it's about trade offs. And there's no perfect. There's no world without some struggle or suffering. Yeah, but perhaps it need not be concentrated into the body of a child.

Margaret Killjoy (60:52)

But hear me out. No, no, I think you're right.

Hazel Acacia (60:55)

No, don't make that joke. Okay, fine. Well, do we want to start wrapping up? I'd love to hear what people are reading currently. And if you have a Le Guin book that you'd like to recommend.

Steven Monticelli (61:09)

I'm finishing this book of short stories that are sci fi. Actually, I picked it up on a recent vacation by Ted Chang as the author who wrote the story that inspired Arrival, which, whatever, it's a movie, but it's fun stuff. It's not super explicitly political, but very philosophical and kind of in the vein of Le Guin. It's like sci fi that's actually really just about today. So it's been a breezy read. And then in terms of Le Guin books, I mean, Left Hand of Darkness, you got to read that. And you've already named a couple of the other favorites of mine.

Hazel Acacia (61:42)

Margaret's pointing at me, so I'll go. I am a freak. And I have been reading this doorstopper 90s epic fantasy called Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb. I haven't finished the trilogy, so don't come for me if it gets problematic. But it is extremely fucking good and my stupid nerdy brain loves it. If you like bizarre feudal fantasy told from the point of view of a teenager bastard son of the king in waiting, that one might be for you. But in terms of Le Guin, my favorite Le Guin to recommend is the first one that I started with. It's called the Telling. It's one that I would describe as off the beaten path of Le Guin books, but it is the last entry in the Hayner cycle that she wrote before her passing. And it tells the story of a cultural observer who was sent to a planet that in the time that it takes her ship to arrive, they have a cultural revolution. And so the culture that she's come to study is being very brutally repressed. And it's a really beautiful and moving story about the power of folklore as resistance and folk culture, you know, as rebellion. It's got queer protagonists, if you're into that. Yeah, really moving piece and really approachable entryway into the Hanish cycle, which is kind of the series of books that includes Left Hand of Darkness and the Dispossessed and a lot of her other big ones. That would be my Le Guin rec.

Margaret Killjoy (63:26)

I just finished reading a book called Avalon Rise by Madeline Fitch. And Fitch is spelled with two Fs, just like a bonus F in there, which is a totally polite way to describe someone's spelling of their surname. I feel really good about myself. It's an amazing book. I read an advanced reader's copy, I think it still isn't out yet, but you all should be excited about Avalon Rise by Madeline Fitch. It is a story about anti fascists in a small town in Appalachia who don't want the fascists to start organizing there. But it is written. It's just a brutally honest. It's another anarchist writing anarchists and being willing to actually write it by being like, hey, you know who's kind of shitty? All the antifascists. You know who's even shittier? The fascists. And just really well done. As for a Le Guin book to recommend, I'd say the word for World is Forest is maybe my favorite Le Guin book. I say this now. I had an English teacher when I was in high school who had one Shakespeare play that he never read because he always needed something to look forward to in his life. And so he was never going to read all of Shakespeare, so he'd always have one remaining. I have a lot of Le Guin remaining, but it's why I haven't just eaten them all. But I've read a ton of Le Guin books, but there's a ton more to go and it's because I'm pacing myself. But the word for world is forest. That's the one I'll go with. You'll read it and you'll never look at Ewoks the same again. All right, well, thank you all the dear listeners for joining us in this experiment. And thanks everyone who commented on Reddit. We did not get to all of your comments. You're probably aware of that if you're one of the people who made a comment. We ran out of time. We actually were like, we're going to somehow do all of that, and we did not. But we really appreciate all of you and thanks so much. Next week we'll probably be back with something that I read to you because that's usually what happens. But if this experiment seems to be working, then maybe we'll do this again.

Hazel Acacia (65:26)

Keep the discussion going on Reddit.

Margaret Killjoy (65:27)

Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah. You all can also keep the discussion

Hazel Acacia (65:30)

going and let us know if you like this or if you hated it. If you were like, I actually just want you to read things to me. I don't want to think about stuff.

Margaret Killjoy (65:39)

Yeah. All right, y' all got anything you want to plug?

Steven Monticelli (65:42)

I'll always be writing stories. You can find all the investigative journalism I do my website, stevenmonicelli.com and then I've got some more stuff coming out for It Could Happen Here in the coming months. Got a re up of a miniseries I did last year, Anti Vax America, which will be really uplifting, informative stuff that will make you feel good about public health for years to come.

Margaret Killjoy (66:07)

Yay.

Hazel Acacia (66:08)

Yay. We love to feel good about the state of public health. My name is Hazel Acacia. You can find the zine that I wrote about self managing an abortion@tangledwilderness.org and I help out here behind the scenes. So stay tuned for more. Mostly spec fic, but sometimes we get freaky.

Margaret Killjoy (66:28)

I'm Margaret. I wrote an anarchist utopia book a while ago called A Country of Ghosts. You might like it. It's about anarchists at war defending their non country against imperialist invaders. Bye everyone.

Hazel Acacia (66:40)

Bye bye. It Could Happen here as a production

Margaret Killjoy (66:48)

of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media,

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Visit our website coolzone media.com or check

Hazel Acacia (66:53)

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Margaret Killjoy (67:03)

Thanks for listening.

Tom Boger (67:08)

American Soccer is about to explode.

Tab Ramos (67:10)

The World cup is coming.

Margaret Killjoy (67:11)

Ramos sending on Ernie Stewart the chip score.

Tab Ramos (67:16)

I'm Tab Ramos.

Tom Boger (67:18)

I'm Tom Boke. On our podcast, Inside American Soccer, you'll get the real storylines, the biggest decisions, and the truth about the U.S. national team.

Tab Ramos (67:27)

It wouldn't be a huge surprise if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals.

Tom Boger (67:34)

Listen Inside American Soccer with Tom Boger and Tab ramos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

Commercial Narrator (67:42)

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Margaret Killjoy (68:12)

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Commercial Narrator (68:21)

What's next? Dead Man's Grove?

Debbie Brown (68:24)

Mom, could you please try to be a little bit positive about this?

Podcast Announcer (68:29)

From Kenya Barris, the visionary creator of Black Ish, comes Big Age, an Audible original about finding your way in life's next chapter. This audio comedy series follows a retired couple's reluctant relocation to Sunset Gardens, a Floridian senior community that is is anything but relaxing. Starring comedy legends Jennifer Lewis, Cedric the Entertainer and Niecy Nash Betz. Through its blend of outrageous comedy, Tea Party anyone? And touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigages to start listening today.

Mental Health Podcast Host (69:08)

Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing and and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is mental health awareness month and the psychology of your twenties is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face.

Debbie Brown (69:24)

I was six years into my career, the 80 hour weeks and just the first one in, the last one out and I ended up burning out.

Podcast Announcer (69:30)

There was a large chunk of my twenties that I like was just so

Debbie Brown (69:33)

wanting to like be out of that

Podcast Announcer (69:34)

phase, out of my skin and I just like really regret not living in the present more.

Mental Health Podcast Host (69:38)

You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Podcast Announcer (69:50)

This is an iHeart podcast.

Mental Health Podcast Host (69:53)

Guaranteed Human.