CZM Rewind: Indigenous Peoples Day

Summary

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Podcast Summary: It Could Happen Here – "CZM Rewind: Indigenous Peoples Day"

Date: October 13, 2025
Host(s): Mia (Cool Zone Media)
Guest(s): Dalia Kilsbach (Northern Cheyenne, federal Indian & tribal policy expert), Garrison Davis

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Overview

This special re-broadcast for Indigenous Peoples Day features an in-depth discussion of the origins and significance of Indigenous Peoples Day, the history and ongoing impacts of U.S. federal Indian policy, and the evolving concept of "Land Back." The episode centers the voice of Dalia Kilsbach, a Northern Cheyenne citizen and expert in federal Indian policy. Together with Mia and Garrison, the conversation traces the timeline of policy regimes, their devastating effects and resistance, and contemporary movements for Indigenous sovereignty and justice.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Indigenous Peoples Day: Meaning & Importance

[03:39–04:47]

• Replacing Columbus Day: Indigenous Peoples Day is now recognized by many cities/states instead of "Columbus Day," which remains a federal holiday.
• Reasoning: To shift the focus from celebrating Columbus—"first of all did not discover America" [03:39, Dalia] and who committed slavery, genocide, and rape—to recognizing the original peoples of the Americas and their contributions.
• Memorable Quote:

  "Rather than celebrating somebody like [Columbus], Indigenous Peoples Day has been implemented in order to recognize the people who are actually here first, and Indigenous peoples across the Americas, their histories, cultures and contributions."
  — Dalia Kilsbach [03:39]

• Mia’s take: "Columbus, real piece of shit. Worst Christopher..." [04:47]

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2. Colonialism to Settler Colonialism

[06:03–09:37]

• Key Distinction:
  • Colonial governments extract resources for a faraway "metropole" (e.g., England, Spain).
  • Settler colonialism (U.S.) involves settlers staying, claiming the land as their own, and requiring dispossession (often through genocide) of Indigenous populations.
• Doctrine of Discovery: European legal framework to justify seizure of Indigenous lands because "Indigenous peoples...were deemed unable to govern themselves" [09:50, Dalia].
• Structural Racism: Legal title transferred from Indigenous peoples to European nations, then to the U.S.; Indigenous nations seen as "occupants," not owners.

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3. Timeline of Federal Indian Policy

a) Colonial & Confederation Periods (1492–1789)

[06:03–12:49]

• Shift from colonial to settler colonial control.

b) Treaty Era (1789–1835)

[12:49–15:04]

• Three Key Constitutional Clauses: Treaty Making, Commerce, Property.
• U.S. government exclusively regulates "Indian affairs," absorbing tribes into "domestic interest," eroding prior sovereignty.

c) Removal Era (1835–1861): Indian Removal Act & The Trail of Tears

[21:45–27:26]

• Land Theft Legalized: The law functioned as "retroactive justification for just fucking everything" [16:34, Mia].
• Supreme Court vs. President: Marshall's Supreme Court rulings theoretically protected tribal sovereignty, but Jackson "just does it anyways" [24:55, Mia]; violence overruled legal protections.
• Genocide as Policy: "This state actually is...a genocide machine" [27:43, Mia].

d) Reservation & Boarding School Era (1861–1887)

[28:42–33:02]

• Reservations: Removal to often-inhospitable lands, frequent warfare, e.g., Little Bighorn.
• Assimilation Attempts: Forced use of boarding schools to "kill the Indian, save the man," banning spiritual practices, imposing Christianization.

e) Allotment & Assimilation (1871–1934)

[38:00–41:33]

• Dawes Act: Tribes’ communal lands divided among individuals; "excess" land sold off to settlers.
• Failed 'Civilizing' Project: Yeoman farmer model imposed; economic and agricultural failure.
• Canada Parallel: Similar processes under Canadian Indian Act.

f) Indian Reorganization Act & Termination (1934–1962)

[41:53–45:10]

• Reversal, then rapid swing to terminating recognition and dissolving government-to-government relationships; tribes like the Menominee dissolved.
• Characterization: "Federal Indian policy as a pendulum:... termination... and self-determination. But both... held within the context of goals of assimilation." [45:10, Dalia]

g) Self-Determination Era (1962–present)

[45:39–49:49]

• Restoration of some tribal governments, tribal councils established, Nixon condemns termination, incremental restoration of sovereignty.
• Persistent Problems: Rights to land and treaty violations remain ongoing issues.
• Dalia: "All treaties in the history of the United States with Indian tribes have been broken in some way..." [49:09]

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4. Land Back Movement: History, Meaning, and Tensions

[49:49–56:32]

• What is 'Land Back'?
  • Protean slogan; varies by person and context.
  • Dalia:

    "When we say land back, for me, how I interpret it... is recognition of our tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land that has not been respected." [52:25]

• Recent Activism:
  • NoDAPL (Dakota Access Pipeline), Stop Line 3 showcased wide alliance, treaty violations.
  • Social media increased solidarity.
• Misconceptions: Reactionary critics fret over mass removals of settlers; in practice, most calls focus on tribal self-determination, reparation, and environmental justice.
• Land, Property, and Decolonization:
  • "Land as we conceive it to be property... grew in conversation with Euro American conceptions of property." [56:09, Dalia]
  • True decolonization may involve moving beyond colonial property models.
• Key Quote:

  "How do we expect for the conqueror to be held accountable for all of these atrocities... by searching for justice within the courts of the conqueror?"
  — Dalia Kilsbach [54:52]

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5. Contemporary Engagement & Resources

[57:16–61:18]

• Education:
  • Read Settler Colonialism by Lorenzo Veracini.
  • Follow the National Congress of American Indians and Illuminatives for advocacy and lived experience content.
• Action:
  • Learn about the tribes whose land you live on.
  • Support tribal sovereignty and rights at state/local and federal levels: e.g., fishing/hunting rights, environmental justice, Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women activism, boarding school reparations.
  • Support organizations: National Boarding School Healing Coalition, tribal partnerships, and relevant nonprofit organizations.
• Quote:

  "A really good way to make some more tangible change, to feel like you're doing something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating yourself and making sure that their voices are at the forefront."
  — Dalia Kilsbach [59:29]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Columbus: "Worst Christopher... Even people in that era who had committed their own genocides were, like, 'What on earth?'" [04:47, Mia]
• On the law: “The law is sort of just following the violence and it just becomes a sort of retroactive justification for just fucking everything.” [16:34, Mia]
• On sovereignty: "It's a self-justifying sort of sovereignty." [16:43, Dalia]
• On US genocidal capability: “This is what sovereignty is... the ability to break your own rules... the genocide machine has to keep moving.” [27:43, Mia]
• On Resistance: "In every instance of federal Indian policy, you have resistance... that's why the federal government has not been able to eradicate us, much to their dismay." [45:39, Dalia]
• On Treaties: “All treaties in the history of the United States with Indian tribes have been broken in some way, shape or form. But still American Indians have to live on their reservations instead of having their, their land back.” [49:09, Dalia]
• On 'Land Back': “Land back has many, like a plethora of meanings in that sense.” [55:48, Dalia]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:39] – Dalia explains why Indigenous Peoples Day
• [06:03] – Difference between colonial and settler colonial states
• [09:50] – Doctrine of Discovery explained
• [12:49] – U.S. treaty regime
• [21:45] – Indian Removal Act and legal contradictions
• [28:42] – Reservation wars, boarding schools, and assimilation
• [38:00] – The Dawes Act (allotment era)
• [41:53] – End of allotment, rapid-fire policy phases
• [45:39] – Ongoing resistance and the self-determination era
• [49:49] – The meaning and complexities of "Land Back"
• [57:16] – Resources and ways listeners can support Indigenous rights

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Tone and Style

• Candid and direct: No euphemisms about genocide, land theft, or law as violence.
• Knowledgeable and educational: Excellent primers on complex history (Dalia delivers crash course style overview).
• Wry humor: Mia’s asides and ascorbic description of Columbus and U.S. policy (“retroactive justification for just fucking everything”).
• Activist energy: Repeated focus on resistance, activism, land back, and the need for genuine solidarity.

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Final Resources & Calls to Action

• Books: Settler Colonialism by Lorenzo Veracini
• Organizations: National Congress of American Indians, Illuminatives, National Boarding School Healing Coalition
• Actions: Understand your own local history, support tribal issues and activism, advocate for state/federal respect of treaties and sovereignty

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This summary distills a thoughtful, urgent, and thorough conversation on the contested history and present of Indigenous justice in the United States, vividly conveyed in the voices of those with lived and studied experience.

Transcript

[Dalia Kilsbach]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu. Every single episode.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app. App podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out.

[Aaron Manke]

From iheart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or where wherever you get your podcasts.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

What's up, everybody?

[Ed Helms]

It's snacks from the Trap Nerds. All October long, we're bringing you the horror.

[Mia]

Boogity, boogity, boogity. We kicking off this month with some of my best horror games to keep you terrified.

[Ed Helms]

Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die first. And it's the return of Tony's horror show side Quest, written and narrated by yours truly. We'll also be doing a full episode reading with commentary, and we'll cap it off with a horror movie battle royale. Open your free iHear radio app and search Trapped Nerds podcast and listen now.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

[Mia]

Had 30 agents ready to go with.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Shotguns and rifles and you name it. Five, six white people pushed me in the car. I'm going, what the hell?

[Ed Helms]

Basically, your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

All you gotta do is receive the package. Don't have to open it, just accept it.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

She was very upset, crying. Once I saw the gun, I tried.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

To take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Listen to the Chinatown sting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts.

[Mia]

Hello, this is Mia from the future. The whole crew is off this week, so you'll be getting a series of episodes from our past. And this episode in particular, I wanted to rerun for Indigenous Peoples Day, but it is also from before I came out. So hope you all enjoy and we will be back next week. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast that is on the cycle of being sort of okayly introduced. When this episode goes out, it will be Indigenous Peoples Day. And so to talk about that more, we're going to talk to Dalia Kilsbach, who is a member of the Northern Cheyenne or has Northern Cheyenne tribal citizenship and has studied and worked in federal India tribal policy. Dalia, hello. How are you doing?

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Hi. I'm doing well. Thank you for inviting me here today.

[Mia]

Of course. Garrison is also here. Garrison, hello.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Hello. I'm currently also doing writing about indigenous stuff, but within the context of Canada, which you'll people should. We'll probably hear later this week.

[Mia]

So, yeah, I guess first thing I wanted to talk about is a little bit is about what Indigenous Peoples Day is and why it is that and not the other thing.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah. So Indigenous Peoples Day, as many people now is replacing, I'm going to say it, Christopher Columbus Day. That is still like a federal holiday, but multiple cities and states have opted to use Indigenous Peoples Day instead. And the reasoning for that is acknowledging the atrocities that were committed by Christopher Columbus, who first of all did not discover America, but continued to not only use slavery. Slavery, but commit different forms of genocide, rape, et cetera, all of these terrible atrocities. And so rather than celebrating somebody like that, Indigenous Peoples Day has been implemented in order to recognize the people who are actually here first and indigenous peoples across the Americas, they're histories, cultures and contributions.

[Mia]

Yeah, Columbus, real piece of shit. Worst Christopher, like, yeah, it really cannot be overstated how bad that guy was. Even, you know, even people in that era who had committed their own genocides, like Isabella and Ferdinand, who, you know, expelled the Jews from Spain, where it's like, you know, once you've reached the sentence expelled the Jews from X, you're already in the shit list of the worst people in human history. And even they. What Columbus was doing, it was like, what on earth? Bad, bad guy, bad name. Things are going to continue to go badly. And yeah, that was another thing that I wanted to talk about, which is federal Indian policy. And this is an incredibly broad. This is an incredibly broad area spanning like 300 years. So we're not going to be able to go into an enormous amount of depth in it. But I think it's important that people have an understanding of, I mean, a. Just what the US did and how everyone else has had to sort of deal with it. And then also the fact that this is something that changes over time and has looked different, it's been bad in different ways.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah. And so when talking about federal Indian policy, I always like to contextualize it within a larger sort of like Euro American, like teleology of colonial conquests and then moving on to settler colonialism and where we are with federal, federal Indian policy currently. So how do we connect Christopher Columbus to where we are currently? And this is the history of federal Indian policy and Western legal discourse and how European powers throughout history have defined what it means to be an Indian person in relation ship to Indigenous peoples rights to their own land and to self governance. So when we're looking at the different periods of federal Indian policy prior to there being a United States government, we have the colonial period which is 1492 to 1776. This is how federal Indian policy, legal scholars divide that. And it's really important to kind of give the difference between what is a colonial state versus a settler colonial state when you're talking about not just the United States government, but also the Canadian government and different governments globally. But I want to talk just a little bit about what I mean by the difference between a colonial government and a settler colonial government because they're tied together. So by a settler colonial government, I mean, what I mean is that it is defined by the deterritorialization of indigenous population populations. And so rather than in a colonial government as you had with Christopher Columbus and the Spanish and with the English etc. Is rather than a state and sovereignty being conceived as all these resources are going back to the Metropole, all these resources are going back to England or to Spain, et cetera. And colonial occupation is in. Is conceptualized within this way in settler colonial governments, the colonists come to these lands and stay. And what they define as sovereignty is within this land that they define now as their own. So and in order for that process to happen, there needs to be different forms of genocide of the indigenous populations. And so that's what we saw with Christopher Columbus and throughout history was just the depletion of a lot of our Indigenous populace. When I mean about the United States being a settler colonial state, I mean that this is current and ongoing. And so when we talk about federal Indian policy, federal Indian policy is always in this conversation with what started with Christopher Columbus as the doctrine of discovery. And so that's how we define the colonial period. And feel free to stop me and ask me questions. I'm just going to try to move quickly because there's a lot.

[Mia]

Yeah, I think we probably should briefly talk about what the doctrine of discovery is, at least before we get to the Marshall trilogy and stuff for sure. So what does that actually mean legally?

[Dalia Kilsbach]

So legally, it's the discovery of a quote unquote Newfoundland by European colonial forces. And the reason why it's called the doctrine of discovery was that indigenous peoples on these lands were deemed unable to govern themselves and they did not know how to utilize their land. Up to the definition of what the European powers thought land use was that indigenous peoples didn't have the same concept of property and same with their relationship with resources and resource extraction. So when Christopher Columbus and all of these other colonizers, Conquistador Doris, came to the quote unquote new land, they saw all of this rich, plentiful resource and thought to themselves, well, obviously these people don't know what they're doing because there's just so much they have not done anything with it. And we're going to take this back to ours because obviously they're inferior beings and don't know what property is. So legally, the doctrine of discovery conveyed legal title to and ownership of American soil to European nations, a title that devolved to the United States. And so this definition is expansive. And expansive discovery implies that native nations have a right to land as occupants or possessors, but they are incompetent to manage those lands and need a quote unquote benevolent guardian, such as a federal government who holds legal title. And so when we're talking about this legal title, it devolves to the United States later on in history after the American Revolution. And so rather than being colonial states as the United States, like 13 original colonies, given the American Revolution and its own Constitution and its creation of itself as a nation state, then that turns into a settler colonial government.

[Mia]

Yeah, and I think we can. Yeah, we can get to what happens next then, because, yeah, you have this elaborate liberal framework that lets you steal people's land and murder them and then control it. And then the outgrowth of that is this sort of weird event where the colonies go into rebellion and suddenly, yeah, there's not a colony. They're not colonies anymore. They just are the state. And so, yeah, but what happens next after the sort of formation of the United States?

[Dalia Kilsbach]

So after the formation of the United States, so we have this period, the American Revolution. It's all, not really dive that into is 1776 to 1789, and it's called the Confederation period. But next we have the Trade and Intercourse act era, which is from 1789 to 1835. And so this is defined with the United States Constitution and Congress's exclusive right to regulate trade relations and make land secessions and enter into treaties with tribes. So this is a treaty making era with the tribes that only the United States federal government is able to. And there's a distinction there because there had been a lot of contestation between states and the federal government as to who is going to now deal with these. These nations that are with our. Within our own settler colonial borders. So whose job is that to solve this issue? Within the United States Constitution, there are three clauses that define the United States legal relationship to American Indians. And so these are the Treaty making Clause, the Commerce clause and the Property clause. And so this movement from just relying on the doctrine of discovery and treaty making processes between different European powers now is between the United States federal government and tribes. What this does is now tribes are located within the United States territory. And this places Indians within the boundaries and jurisdiction of the United States. And now they're a matter of domestic interest.

[Mia]

Something that leads it to one of the sort of complicated questions that changes through this whole era, which is about what does sovereignty mean for these tribes and to what extent do they even continue to possess it? And how does that even sort of, how does that work when you have this new state that sort of just has claimed control here?

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Right. And also during this period. Well, later on when we have. Sorry, jumping ahead of myself, when we have the extermination of the treaty making process. And this completely removes seeing tribes as independent sovereign nations. So I think that will kind of get more into that later. But the thing with federal Indian policy is that it's sort of self prophesizing. So as settlers are moving across America, the United States government also has to create these policies in order to legalize these land cessations and movements. And a pattern that we do see here throughout history and throughout time is that the United States federal government as a settler state is over the rights of, over the rights to land and rights of indigenous peoples themselves. You have a priority of the settler state in order to acquire land. So a lot of the reason why later these treaties will be broken, etc. Is because settlers are moving into these lands and the United States is then breaking these treaties in order to have more land. More land. Secessions.

[Mia]

Yeah, yeah. The law is sort of just following the violence and it just becomes a sort of retroactive justification for just fucking everything.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

It's a self justifying sort of sovereignty.

[Mia]

Yeah.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu Every single episode.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[Ed Helms]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s basketball player who still wore knee pads. Yes, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh wow. Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Announcer (WashablesOfSofas.com)]

What was that like for you to.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the questions today.

[Announcer (WashablesOfSofas.com)]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

I'm telling you. We know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Mia]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Mia]

I did not know her and I.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava For Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame America.

[Ed Helms]

Y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava For Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

There's a vile sickness in Amstown. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien? Get back everyone. Let's go Nats.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body, and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.

[Aaron Manke]

As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater Audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

The Devil Walks in Abbostown.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

So this is the removal period and what a lot of people may have heard of. So it's from 1835 to 1861. And what we have is the extinguishment of Indian title to eastern lands and the removal of Indian tribes westward. So one of the most notable acts is the Removal act, which was authorized by President Andrew Jackson, which moved Indians from the east to the west of the Mississippi river into what is was called Indian Territory. And what brought about this federal federal act was a series of three foundational statutes within federal Indian policy dictated by Chief Justice John Marshall. So first we have Johnson B. McIntosh, Cherokee Nation v. Georgia, and Worcester v. Georgia. And I won't go into too much detail, but what these essentially did and legally defined tribes as being domestic dependent nations. And so it clarified more that again, tribal nations are underneath the federal government's overview, not the states. So yeah, it placed tribes above state jurisdiction. And what this was trying to do was solve some issues that tribes such as the Cherokee Nation had with different states when it came to land and jurisdiction over said land. But that is kind of the basis of a lot of federal Indian policy and still remains true today. And what is notable in each one of these statutes, I believe particularly in Worcester Van Georgia, although it seems that it was supporting tribal sovereignty in that they were above state jurisdiction. A lot of these statutes cited racist president and the doctrine of discovery. So what you see for federal Indian policy is that a lot of the found. Well, the foundation for federal Indian policy based on precedent is the doctrine of discovery, which is reliant on the idea that American Indians were savages and needed federal benevolence and paternalism in order to regulate their own affairs.

[Mia]

Yeah. And I think that's. Well, okay. We should probably not just immediately skip to allotment, but. Yeah. Because there's also. Yeah, this is also the period we used. Yeah. The thing you were talking about earlier, the thing you probably know about, which is, okay, it's not true to say this is when this starts, but this is Indian Removal Act, Trail of Tears territory. And one thing, I think one of the sort of running themes of this.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Is that.

[Mia]

The law in this context is just sort of. It becomes a sort of retroactive excuse to do whatever needs to be done from the perspective of the settler state to just take all of this land.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Yeah.

[Mia]

And I think maybe one of the keystones of this is Andrew Jackson just straight up telling the Supreme Court to fuck off so that he can do. So he can do a Trail of Tears.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah. So the Removal act happened after all of these statutes that you already had that supported federal Indian sovereignty. And so the Cherokees in Georgia were one of the tribes that were removed. And so you kind of see what you talked about, the. The retrograde kind of justifications for said removal despite the statutes that are there. So although that, like Marshall in Worcester Beach, Georgia, determined that the state of Georgia did not have jurisdiction over Cherokee territory, although this territory was in the state's borders, later on, you see with the Removal act that although these statutes are still precedent in federal Indian policy, those were null in order for there to be more expansion of settlers within these areas. So when it was decided that, oh, wait, we do need this land and we don't actually want these Indians here, let's put. Put them to the side over past the Mississippi so that they're out of sight, out of mind. Right. So we see more of this justification for settler expansion. And so again, we bring back to these themes of, like, settler colonialism in order to kind of gain more of this land. And a lot of these statutes are still cited, the doctrine of discovery in them. And rather than supporting tribal policy, the relationship between the United States federal government and American Indians was not based on the rights of Indians, but more that they can't. They can't govern themselves. Right. And so, so, and that's the whole issue is like, people are like, they don't know what they're doing, so we're going to push them and like, take their land again. So I, I don't know if you want me to go too much into the Trail of Tears, but you're seeing a lot of patterns here, I think, different forms of genocide, different forms of taking land.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

And this was. This is all around the same time as the Indian act in Canada as well, which was. Did a very similar thing, especially starting in the 1900s. It's starting in the 20th century as well, with the, like, expansion of the, like, assimilation programs.

[Mia]

Yeah. And I think, I guess one other thing I want to point out about this is that. So one of the things that happens with trailers here is that the Supreme Court tells Jackson that he can't do this, and Jackson just does it anyways. And I think that's a very interesting, important moment because this is this thing where the federal government can tell the Supreme Court to fuck off. Right. And there's nothing the Supreme Court could do about it. And if you look at what they did it to do, the thing they did it to do was genocide. And it's. I think it's. It's just, I think this is very sort of, I don't know, this incredibly grim, like, you know, encapsulation of, like, what this state actually is, which is this sort of genocide machine and whatever sort of, you know, this is what sovereignty is, Right. It's the ability to break your own rules in order to sort of maintain order to maintain the system. So you, you know, you break your own laws. And, you know, as we're going to get to in a second, like, you break your own treaties continuously. And you do this because the genocide machine has to keep moving.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Right. And there's a couple federal Indian policy theorists. Vine Deloria Jr. Who's one of the most famous ones, and David E. Wilkins, who talks about how there is no need for checks and balances within the federal Indian policy system. So you have Congress that is able to pass whatever act they want, and, and then you also have the Supreme Court, and then you also have executive action, but it wasn't really delineated that well, within, especially when it comes to this period as to who is going to be dealing with the Indians kind of thing. And so this kind of confusion and not really completely defining what it means to be a domestic dependent nation, I think really just goes to show how much of a fragile edifice like settler colonial policy is for it is within the system. But again, moving on, it comes back again to land. So the reservation era in 1861-1887, you have a lot of westward expansion of non Indians settlers, specifically to California. You also have the creation of Indian reservations and resulting Indian wars. So during this era, what you see a lot of are different types of attempts at assimilation and a lot of warfare. So you have a lot of the Plains tribes, my tribe, for instance, that are going through all of these battles, fighting forced removal onto reservations. One of the most famous ones was the Battle of Greasy Grass or the Little Bighorn where General Custer was killed by Sioux, Cheyennes and Arapahoes and different instances of battles such as those. And also where a lot of tribes were forcibly removed to areas that they were, weren't originally from. So like how the Cherokees were moved to Oklahoma, there's attempts of my tribe, for instance, Northern Cheyenne to be moved down to Oklahoma as well. And that's why there's some Southern Cheyennes in Oklahoma and then my tribe, the Northern Cheyennes in Montana. Another thing that is happening during this period are boarding schools, the boarding school era. So this attempts at assimilation through education and assimilation is also within, within the settler colonial kind of structure. It's, it's defined as a process where indigenous people end up conforming to different constructed notions of settler norms. So if they're not absorbed within the state completely, then their attempted attempt to be assimilated culturally through education, through languages, in terms of economics. So now you have a bunch of different sort of bureaucratic structures on these reservations trying to make tribal governments appear to be or constructed as settler colonial governments are. So maybe it's the three branches in ways that aren't just compatible with different tribes culturally. And you also have the attempted eradication of different kind of spiritual and cultural practices and a lot of Christianity being forced onto different people and just kind of terrible things that I think more and more people are becoming aware of due to, due to current movements. But we'll get into that later.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop.

[Announcer (WashablesOfSofas.com)]

What?

[Ed Helms]

Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[Mia]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

It's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh wow. Angela and Jenna. I am, I am so psyched you're here.

[Announcer (WashablesOfSofas.com)]

What was that like for you to.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Soft launch into the show?

[Ed Helms]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the questions today.

[Announcer (WashablesOfSofas.com)]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Ed Helms]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Mia]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Mia]

I did not know her and I.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Did not kill her or rape or.

[Mia]

Burn or any of that other stuff.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

That Y' all said.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava For Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Ed Helms]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava For Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

There's a vile sickness in Abbas Town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out. The village is ravaged. Entire families have been consumed.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

You know how waking up from a dream, a familiar place can look completely alien? Get back, everyone. He's got knacks.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

And if you see the devil walking around inside of another man, you must cut out the very heart of him, burn his body, and scatter the ashes in the furthest corner of this town.

[Aaron Manke]

As a warning from iHeart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke, this is Havoc Town, a new fiction piece podcast sets in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

The Devil Walks in Abbostown.

[Mia]

Do we want to talk about allotment briefly? Because if I remember correctly, this is in the the same period.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yes, allotment period and for assimilation. So this is like 1871 to 1934. And so this is the end of the treaty making process. So the whole idea of trying to force tribes onto reservations and sign these treaties were to again, take land and make sure that the United States has more land and all the land, et cetera, that they could possibly have. So at this end of treaty making, federal allotment of Indian lands also happened in the the Dawes Act. And so what this was was an attempt to further shrink the reservation lands that tribes are already guaranteed within treaties. So during this period, I think somewhere like 9 million acres were taken from tribal reservations during the allotment process. So what the allotment process did was it counted each and every individual Indian that was eligible. I think there were adults, yeah, adults that were eligible. And each one of them were given a certain parcel of land, a certain number of acreage. And once all of this land was calculated, what you had was an excess of land, quote, unquote, excess of land. That the tribes obviously didn't need because they had still too, too many people. And so what the excess of land was utilized for is for pioneers and for settlers. If it didn't go to the federal government, it was to incentivize settlers to colonize, essentially settle on Indian lands, so trying its hardest to not stay true to its treaty making practices.

[Mia]

I think the other thing that was interesting to me about this is that like, because one of the other goals of this is to sort of like, ooh, is the civilizing mission. It's like, yeah, we're going to turn them into, we're going to turn all these people into like, like yeoman farmers, like true American frontiersmen or whatever. And it's just like, it just doesn't work because economically it doesn't make any sense. Like breaking up all these like, lands is like, it doesn't. You can't just give someone like a small patch of like shitty land and have them farm. Like this doesn't. Like this. It doesn't, it doesn't. It like they certainly tried. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Like that was one of the main thing, One of the main things in Canada was about getting them to adopt like, like European farming practices which, which they, they already knew how to like get their own food. Right. They were trying to change this whole system of, of, of like, of food growth to, to this, like, to, to this European way of farming. And it just, and they were just forcing them to. And there's. Yeah, it's, it's, it, yeah, it's, it gets, it gets, it gets super, it gets super like dark and horrible. Once you like look at like the letters that were being written by like the heads of these programs, like you know, instructing like these agents were stationed at these like reservations to like force people to be doing this horrible farming for like all day, every day.

[Mia]

And I think, you know, the sign that this was like, like this is, this is so bad that even the US Government eventually is like, wait, this, this, like this is fucked up and doesn't work. So I think that's, yeah, you transition to sort of like the next phase, I guess.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah, a very short phase. Yeah. So the next phase is the Indian Reorganization Act. And so this only lasted six years from 1934 to 1940. So this is when allotment ended. As you said, the United States government was like, wait, this isn't working. What else can we do? The Indians aren't dying off. They're not assimilating, they're not acculturating. We don't know what to do with them. So maybe we'll have them adopt these constitutions. And a lot of them were just templates. So regardless of whether or not they were, I think, compatible with tribal, different tribes way of life, they were like, you have these constitutions now. Now you're, you're a tribe. And this is what each tribe has to look like in order for us, the federal government, to recognize you as a legitimate entity. And then so you have the establishment of these tribal governments that consist of tribal councils and business committees, et cetera. However, this period is fleeting, very fleeting. And next you have the Termination era. So this is the period of time where the federal government essentially even more so, wants to just get rid of the quote, unquote Indian problem, which is the existence of indigenous peoples that are reminders to the government essentially that they are a settler colonial force and they don't know what to do with us because they tried to commit genocide, they tried to remove us, et cetera, et cetera, it's still not working. They decided that our tribal governments aren't legitimate. And they just decide, well, it's too much to try to keep up with our treaties and what we promised them when it comes to health care, education, housing, et cetera, et cetera. How about we terminate our federal responsibility, our trust responsibility that are delineated in federal Indian policy and in our treaties and give them off to this, to the states to decide what to do with. And so during this period, you see sort of the federal dissolution of some tribes, such as the Menominee, and other ones as well. So this is another dark time. The dark times just keep on coming. And what federal Indian policy scholars have characterize federal policy as a pendulum. So swing swinging from side to side between this termin this termination of tribes. So the federal Indian government as trying to get rid of tribes, especially as you can see in this era, and then the pendulum of the other side is self determination. But both of these are held within the context of goals of assimilation. So this is just another phase of terribleness.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Yep.

[Mia]

Well, I think this, this phase also like, one thing I think that also like is important people understand is that like, like, it's not like people aren't fighting this, like the whole time. I mean, even going like, even going back to the stuff of the seventh Cavalry, like the seventh Cavalry lose like boars. They lose battles all the time. People are fighting constantly. And this is. This period, the Termination period is also where you see the rise of the American Indian movements.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah, a lot of These periods can be like dove into more and all of these different things. In every instance, in every instance of federal Indian policy, you have resistance, which we're not covering here right now, but you have instances throughout history where indigenous peoples have fought for their rights to land, to, for their community, to being sovereign nations, et cetera. And that's why the federal Indian. The federal government, not federal Indian government. The federal government has not been able to eradicate us, much to their dismay. And so now I'm going to switch into the era that we are considered to be in which I had mentioned when I talked about the pendulum of federal Indian policy. So now we are in the self determination era, which began in 1962. And we have the right, it's characterized with the revitalization of tribal entities. So going kind of back to when there was the Indian Reorganization Act. So we have our tribal councils, there's restoration of some tribes under federal recognition who were terminated. Again, not all of them. We also have the Indian Civil Rights Act. So this, this kind of guaranteed individual Indians some rights, not just characterized by their tribes. Also the self determination policy. So this is when Nixon condemns the termination policy and gave more control to Indians rather than the Bureau of Indian affairs, which is a federal bureau, and just kind of like other policies that have given the tribes more rights to determine for themselves and their own, their own people to a certain degree, underneath the federal government as domestic dependent nations. And again, I, I think that we have seen a lot more movement, but within the context of being within a settler colonial state. It's always, I think, a possibility that the federal Indian government or the federal government, I keep saying Indian, the federal government will try to take more and more. And I think, for instance, when it comes to issues of fishing rights, issues of hunting rights, with states, not even just with the federal government. So you have a lot of states throughout history, but still ongoing, that attempt to encroach on tribal treaties. And again, treaties are the basis of federal Indian policy. Without these treaties, the lands would have never been seceded to the United States. And so there's this, this sort of like legal, legal conundrum, I would say, of where all these, all treaties in the history of the United States with Indian tribes have been broken in some way, shape or form. But still American Indians have to live on their reservations instead of having their, their land back. And so nowadays a lot of movement has been towards land back. What this means, what is this process? And I think it means a lot of different things for different people, Indigenous people because, again, there's 574 federally recognized tribes. And so it's not one monolith of ideas, monolith of beliefs. But just by saying land back, that's like, recognition that this is our. This was our land first, and you're not keeping your side of the deal and never have been.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Could you maybe go a bit more into land back as a topic? Because, like, specifically, like, the past five years, it has really gained a lot more, like, popularity as, like, a slogan. Yeah. But I think for a lot of. A lot of people who, like, chanted and hear it don't always really know exactly what it means. There's a lot of, like, mixed opinions on what it means. Of course, on, like, the more, like, reactionary side, it's like, people be like, what you're gonna, like, kick white people out of these areas? Like, that's kind of. That's what a lot of, like, the reactionary takes on land back is. And I'm sure most people were listening to this podcast. That's not what they think. But they may not really know exactly what it means either. They may think it sounds like a good idea, but they're not quite sure what it is. Do you mind kind of talking about how Landback has, like, developed as. As an idea and what, like. What like, you mean by it personally, at least?

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah, I think I could talk about more about, like, what I mean by it personally and what I've understood it to mean to other people, because I think land Back itself, it means, like, a lot of different things. And I don't think that there has been a concrete kind of idea of what it means. But I think a lot of the movement, I want to, like, contextualize it within a lot of the sort of activism that we've seen in the recent years. So, for instance, no DAPL, the Dakota Access Pipeline in 2016, and kind of. I think that's one of the more recent events that have really illustrated on a wide scale, like, globally, about indigenous movements, sovereign movements, and especially when it comes to environmental justice. But what you saw there was encroachment on tribal treaty land within, when it had to do with the Dakota Access pipeline. So although it didn't cross some of the current reservation borders, it was in treaty land, you know? Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Same thing with Stop line three, how it encroached on, like, the hunting land and the farmland that was not technically in the, like, residential, like, like, like, like, not in, like, the reservation area where people live, but it's in the surrounding area that is for hunting that is specified in the treaty, People are trying to use these, like, loopholes to get the pipelines through.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Right, right. And so I think what you see is a lot of solidarity across tribes because this is not new. This has never been new, and a lot of tribes can relate to that. And what you've seen, and what I hope that I've highlighted throughout this kind of very brief overview of federal policy is the different ways that indigenous rights to land and sovereignty has been attacked in different forms by settler and colonial governments. And I think that the day and age that we live in now has allowed for sort of more widespread solidarity, especially over social media. And so when we say land back, for me, how I interpret it as what people mean when they're saying it is recognition of our tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land that has not been respected. And then I also think that it means, well, if these treaties aren't being respected, then how is this treaty still valid? Right. How come we aren't getting our land back? Because you're not upholding your end of the deal. While some people also might mean and recognize that this whole United States government is a settler state. Right. Based on the doctrine of discovery, which is based on denying tribes and American Indians of their rights to this land. So some people might take it to this whole other context of, yeah, well, maybe this is. This is all of our land, et cetera, et cetera. But in practice, what does this look like? And I think in practice, a lot of people are seeing it with reparations or people buying land back for tribes and giving it back to tribes. And we have seen some of that, or also just people interrupting the narrative in their own mind of their Euro American identity. So non American Indians and primarily European settlers and their history of their own families taking part of the settler colonial process. And how has that. What about their lands? There's everyone who descends, I guess, from these. These settlers. And I want to be specific when I'm talking about Euro American settlers and how they currently benefit from these systems. And I think by saying land back, we're able to highlight this movement for tribal sovereignty and recognition on a global scale. Instead of searching for justice within the quote, unquote, like searching for justice within the courts of the conqueror, how do we expect for the conqueror to be held accountable for all of these atrocities, attempts at genocide, assimilation, et cetera? By taking it more towards a global scale, such as no, Dapple. Highlighting these to other people as these are injustices. This is ongoing genocide. I think that land back has many, like a plethora of meanings in that sense.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Yeah.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah. I hope that answers your question. I myself might use it in some, some different ways because land as we conceive it to be property, that concept grew in conversation with Euro American.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Conceptions of property. So I think that moving forward, when we talk about decolonization as a process and not like a metaphor, that thinking of land back not within that whole idea of Euro American property as well, that's. That's kind of another thing to consider.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Yeah, I think, I think land back would just be a whole other thing that will pay someone more qualified than our team to talk about on this show because. Yeah, that's definitely, you know, like all of the things we've, we've discussed, they deserve their own deep dives by people that are not me, Robert and Chris. Let's see, is. Is there any kind of resources, either books or stuff online that you would recommend for people wanting to learn more about this history and then any kind of ways to, I don't know, I guess show support in these, in these kind of like, efforts that are going on?

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yeah, for sure. So in terms of resources and reading, I have read Lorenzo Veracini's book on settler colonialism. That's really helpful when you're trying to understand that framework in terms of getting to know kind of more of the basics of like, current issues impacting tribes. The National Congress of American Indians does a lot of work on the federal level. If you want to talk more about kind of lived, current lived experiences of American Indians, there's illuminatives and getting more involved in those as well. I think that they have some tips, but I would recommend everyone getting more familiar with the land that they are on currently, the tribes within their state, and what they can do, not just on the local level, but on the state level to support tribal sovereignty. Because a lot of issues, for instance, I worked on the state policy level in Washington and in Montana and both of those have a significant amount of tribes, but you have a lot of legislation that's trying to happen that infringes on tribal treaty rights. And the thing is, as ugly as it may be to say, but sometimes voices of non indigenous peoples are listened to more within those contexts. So you need to get more involved on those levels. What sort of like nonprofit organizations work with your tribes or. And what sort of issues are impacting tribes? And again, these are all going to probably be surrounding tribal sovereignty. So maybe it's fishing Access, hunting rights, et cetera. I think that's a really good way to make some more tangible change, to feel like you're doing something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating yourself and making sure that their voices are at the forefront. And that's also applicable to the federal level, especially with, as you already said, like stop line three in Minnesota, contacting your legislators, et cetera, et cetera. And I think also when it comes to one of the larger issues besides environmental justice for indigenous peoples, such as pipelines, you have right now missing and murdered indigenous women. So looking into that a little bit more and who you can support, who's addressing those issues. Along with. There is another movement with boarding schools right now because there's been a lot of bodies of young children that have been uncovered. And this is not an issue that happened a long, long time ago. Like, for instance, my grandmother went to a boarding school. There's still schools that, although they're not called boarding schools right now, that were boarding schools, but are still in operation under different names, et cetera. So kind of familiarizing yourself with those histories. And then also there's a national. I think it's called the National Boarding School Healing Coalition, based out of Minnesota. And looking into them and supporting their efforts with this issue is also a good place to start.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Is there anywhere that people can find you online?

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Yes. I don't. I don't really use social media that much. Good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I try not to. I don't know if I want people to find me.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Do not. Yeah, don't worry. Don't do it.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

They probably can't find me.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

It's better not.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

It's.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

It's better that people don't find anyone online. It's better we're all just. Just posting into the void. There's nothing just. Just the void. Well, that. That is, I think, gonna wrap up what we have today. Chris, do you want to close us out with a funny bit?

[Mia]

Light your local gas station on fire? Wow.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Jesus Christ.

[Mia]

Killing it here.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

Oh, my God. Jeez. Wow. All right, goodbye, everybody.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

It Could Happen Here as a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can find sources for. It Could Happen here, updated [e-mail] sources. Thanks for listening.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of SNAFU, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu. Every single episode.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator (Havoc Town)]

There's a viral sickness in Ambastown. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out.

[Aaron Manke]

From iheart podcasts and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

What's up, everybody?

[Ed Helms]

It's snacks from the trapped nerds. And all October long, we're bringing you.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

The horror Boogity boogity boogie.

[Mia]

We kicking off this month with some.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Of my best horror games to keep you terrified.

[Ed Helms]

Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die first. And it's the return of Tony's horror show side Quest, written and narrated by yours truly. We'll also be doing a full episode reading with commentary, and we'll cap it off with a horror movie battle royale. Open your free Ahar radio app and search Trap Nerds Podcast and listen now.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

[Mia]

Had 30 agents ready to go with.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Shotguns and rifles and you name it. Five, six white people pushed me in the car. I'm going, what the hell?

[Ed Helms]

Basically, your stay at home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

All you gotta do is receive the package. Don't have to open it just to deceptive.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

She was very upset, crying. Once I saw the gun, I tried.

[Snacks (Trap Nerds)]

To take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[Dalia Kilsbach]

Listen to the Chinatown sting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.