wavePod

Get Wave AI

CZM Rewind: Indigenous Peoples Day - It Could Happen Here | Wave AI Podcast Notes

Back to It Could Happen Here

CZM Rewind: Indigenous Peoples Day

It Could Happen Here

Mon Oct 13 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: It Could Happen Here – "CZM Rewind: Indigenous Peoples Day"

Date: October 13, 2025
Host(s): Mia (Cool Zone Media)
Guest(s): Dalia Kilsbach (Northern Cheyenne, federal Indian & tribal policy expert), Garrison Davis

Overview

This special re-broadcast for Indigenous Peoples Day features an in-depth discussion of the origins and significance of Indigenous Peoples Day, the history and ongoing impacts of U.S. federal Indian policy, and the evolving concept of "Land Back." The episode centers the voice of Dalia Kilsbach, a Northern Cheyenne citizen and expert in federal Indian policy. Together with Mia and Garrison, the conversation traces the timeline of policy regimes, their devastating effects and resistance, and contemporary movements for Indigenous sovereignty and justice.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Indigenous Peoples Day: Meaning & Importance

[03:39–04:47]

Replacing Columbus Day: Indigenous Peoples Day is now recognized by many cities/states instead of "Columbus Day," which remains a federal holiday.
Reasoning: To shift the focus from celebrating Columbus—"first of all did not discover America" [03:39, Dalia] and who committed slavery, genocide, and rape—to recognizing the original peoples of the Americas and their contributions.
Memorable Quote:

"Rather than celebrating somebody like [Columbus], Indigenous Peoples Day has been implemented in order to recognize the people who are actually here first, and Indigenous peoples across the Americas, their histories, cultures and contributions."
— Dalia Kilsbach [03:39]
Mia’s take: "Columbus, real piece of shit. Worst Christopher..." [04:47]

2. Colonialism to Settler Colonialism

[06:03–09:37]

Key Distinction:
- Colonial governments extract resources for a faraway "metropole" (e.g., England, Spain).
- Settler colonialism (U.S.) involves settlers staying, claiming the land as their own, and requiring dispossession (often through genocide) of Indigenous populations.
Doctrine of Discovery: European legal framework to justify seizure of Indigenous lands because "Indigenous peoples...were deemed unable to govern themselves" [09:50, Dalia].
Structural Racism: Legal title transferred from Indigenous peoples to European nations, then to the U.S.; Indigenous nations seen as "occupants," not owners.

3. Timeline of Federal Indian Policy

a) Colonial & Confederation Periods (1492–1789)

[06:03–12:49]

Shift from colonial to settler colonial control.

b) Treaty Era (1789–1835)

[12:49–15:04]

Three Key Constitutional Clauses: Treaty Making, Commerce, Property.
U.S. government exclusively regulates "Indian affairs," absorbing tribes into "domestic interest," eroding prior sovereignty.

c) Removal Era (1835–1861): Indian Removal Act & The Trail of Tears

[21:45–27:26]

Land Theft Legalized: The law functioned as "retroactive justification for just fucking everything" [16:34, Mia].
Supreme Court vs. President: Marshall's Supreme Court rulings theoretically protected tribal sovereignty, but Jackson "just does it anyways" [24:55, Mia]; violence overruled legal protections.
Genocide as Policy: "This state actually is...a genocide machine" [27:43, Mia].

d) Reservation & Boarding School Era (1861–1887)

[28:42–33:02]

Reservations: Removal to often-inhospitable lands, frequent warfare, e.g., Little Bighorn.
Assimilation Attempts: Forced use of boarding schools to "kill the Indian, save the man," banning spiritual practices, imposing Christianization.

e) Allotment & Assimilation (1871–1934)

[38:00–41:33]

Dawes Act: Tribes’ communal lands divided among individuals; "excess" land sold off to settlers.
Failed 'Civilizing' Project: Yeoman farmer model imposed; economic and agricultural failure.
Canada Parallel: Similar processes under Canadian Indian Act.

f) Indian Reorganization Act & Termination (1934–1962)

[41:53–45:10]

Reversal, then rapid swing to terminating recognition and dissolving government-to-government relationships; tribes like the Menominee dissolved.
Characterization: "Federal Indian policy as a pendulum:... termination... and self-determination. But both... held within the context of goals of assimilation." [45:10, Dalia]

g) Self-Determination Era (1962–present)

[45:39–49:49]

Restoration of some tribal governments, tribal councils established, Nixon condemns termination, incremental restoration of sovereignty.
Persistent Problems: Rights to land and treaty violations remain ongoing issues.
Dalia: "All treaties in the history of the United States with Indian tribes have been broken in some way..." [49:09]

4. Land Back Movement: History, Meaning, and Tensions

[49:49–56:32]

What is 'Land Back'?
- Protean slogan; varies by person and context.
- Dalia:
  
  "When we say land back, for me, how I interpret it... is recognition of our tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land that has not been respected." [52:25]
Recent Activism:
- NoDAPL (Dakota Access Pipeline), Stop Line 3 showcased wide alliance, treaty violations.
- Social media increased solidarity.
Misconceptions: Reactionary critics fret over mass removals of settlers; in practice, most calls focus on tribal self-determination, reparation, and environmental justice.
Land, Property, and Decolonization:
- "Land as we conceive it to be property... grew in conversation with Euro American conceptions of property." [56:09, Dalia]
- True decolonization may involve moving beyond colonial property models.
Key Quote:

"How do we expect for the conqueror to be held accountable for all of these atrocities... by searching for justice within the courts of the conqueror?"
— Dalia Kilsbach [54:52]

5. Contemporary Engagement & Resources

[57:16–61:18]

Education:
- Read Settler Colonialism by Lorenzo Veracini.
- Follow the National Congress of American Indians and Illuminatives for advocacy and lived experience content.
Action:
- Learn about the tribes whose land you live on.
- Support tribal sovereignty and rights at state/local and federal levels: e.g., fishing/hunting rights, environmental justice, Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women activism, boarding school reparations.
- Support organizations: National Boarding School Healing Coalition, tribal partnerships, and relevant nonprofit organizations.
Quote:

"A really good way to make some more tangible change, to feel like you're doing something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating yourself and making sure that their voices are at the forefront."
— Dalia Kilsbach [59:29]

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Columbus: "Worst Christopher... Even people in that era who had committed their own genocides were, like, 'What on earth?'" [04:47, Mia]
On the law: “The law is sort of just following the violence and it just becomes a sort of retroactive justification for just fucking everything.” [16:34, Mia]
On sovereignty: "It's a self-justifying sort of sovereignty." [16:43, Dalia]
On US genocidal capability: “This is what sovereignty is... the ability to break your own rules... the genocide machine has to keep moving.” [27:43, Mia]
On Resistance: "In every instance of federal Indian policy, you have resistance... that's why the federal government has not been able to eradicate us, much to their dismay." [45:39, Dalia]
On Treaties: “All treaties in the history of the United States with Indian tribes have been broken in some way, shape or form. But still American Indians have to live on their reservations instead of having their, their land back.” [49:09, Dalia]
On 'Land Back': “Land back has many, like a plethora of meanings in that sense.” [55:48, Dalia]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[03:39] – Dalia explains why Indigenous Peoples Day
[06:03] – Difference between colonial and settler colonial states
[09:50] – Doctrine of Discovery explained
[12:49] – U.S. treaty regime
[21:45] – Indian Removal Act and legal contradictions
[28:42] – Reservation wars, boarding schools, and assimilation
[38:00] – The Dawes Act (allotment era)
[41:53] – End of allotment, rapid-fire policy phases
[45:39] – Ongoing resistance and the self-determination era
[49:49] – The meaning and complexities of "Land Back"
[57:16] – Resources and ways listeners can support Indigenous rights

Tone and Style

Candid and direct: No euphemisms about genocide, land theft, or law as violence.
Knowledgeable and educational: Excellent primers on complex history (Dalia delivers crash course style overview).
Wry humor: Mia’s asides and ascorbic description of Columbus and U.S. policy (“retroactive justification for just fucking everything”).
Activist energy: Repeated focus on resistance, activism, land back, and the need for genuine solidarity.

Final Resources & Calls to Action

Books: Settler Colonialism by Lorenzo Veracini
Organizations: National Congress of American Indians, Illuminatives, National Boarding School Healing Coalition
Actions: Understand your own local history, support tribal issues and activism, advocate for state/federal respect of treaties and sovereignty

This summary distills a thoughtful, urgent, and thorough conversation on the contested history and present of Indigenous justice in the United States, vividly conveyed in the voices of those with lived and studied experience.

Loading summary...

Transcript

Dalia Kilsbach (0:00)

This is an iHeart podcast.

Ed Helms (0:04)

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu. Every single episode.

Dalia Kilsbach (0:14)

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

Ed Helms (0:18)

Yeah, it's gonna be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app. App podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Narrator (Havoc Town) (0:37)

There's a vile sickness in Abbas town. You must excise it, dig into the deep earth and cut it out.

Aaron Manke (0:47)

From iheart podcasts and grim and mild from Aaron Manke. This is Havoc Town, a new fiction podcast set in the Bridgewater audio universe, starring Jewel State and Ray Wise. Listen to Havoc town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or where wherever you get your podcasts.

Snacks (Trap Nerds) (1:05)

What's up, everybody?

Ed Helms (1:06)

It's snacks from the Trap Nerds. All October long, we're bringing you the horror.

Mia (1:10)

Boogity, boogity, boogity. We kicking off this month with some of my best horror games to keep you terrified.

Ed Helms (1:15)

Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die first. And it's the return of Tony's horror show side Quest, written and narrated by yours truly. We'll also be doing a full episode reading with commentary, and we'll cap it off with a horror movie battle royale. Open your free iHear radio app and search Trapped Nerds podcast and listen now.

Dalia Kilsbach (1:36)

In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia.

Mia (1:46)

Had 30 agents ready to go with.

Dalia Kilsbach (1:48)

Shotguns and rifles and you name it. Five, six white people pushed me in the car. I'm going, what the hell?

Dalia Kilsbach (6:03)

Yeah. And so when talking about federal Indian policy, I always like to contextualize it within a larger sort of like Euro American, like teleology of colonial conquests and then moving on to settler colonialism and where we are with federal, federal Indian policy currently. So how do we connect Christopher Columbus to where we are currently? And this is the history of federal Indian policy and Western legal discourse and how European powers throughout history have defined what it means to be an Indian person in relation ship to Indigenous peoples rights to their own land and to self governance. So when we're looking at the different periods of federal Indian policy prior to there being a United States government, we have the colonial period which is 1492 to 1776. This is how federal Indian policy, legal scholars divide that. And it's really important to kind of give the difference between what is a colonial state versus a settler colonial state when you're talking about not just the United States government, but also the Canadian government and different governments globally. But I want to talk just a little bit about what I mean by the difference between a colonial government and a settler colonial government because they're tied together. So by a settler colonial government, I mean, what I mean is that it is defined by the deterritorialization of indigenous population populations. And so rather than in a colonial government as you had with Christopher Columbus and the Spanish and with the English etc. Is rather than a state and sovereignty being conceived as all these resources are going back to the Metropole, all these resources are going back to England or to Spain, et cetera. And colonial occupation is in. Is conceptualized within this way in settler colonial governments, the colonists come to these lands and stay. And what they define as sovereignty is within this land that they define now as their own. So and in order for that process to happen, there needs to be different forms of genocide of the indigenous populations. And so that's what we saw with Christopher Columbus and throughout history was just the depletion of a lot of our Indigenous populace. When I mean about the United States being a settler colonial state, I mean that this is current and ongoing. And so when we talk about federal Indian policy, federal Indian policy is always in this conversation with what started with Christopher Columbus as the doctrine of discovery. And so that's how we define the colonial period. And feel free to stop me and ask me questions. I'm just going to try to move quickly because there's a lot.

Dalia Kilsbach (28:42)

Right. And there's a couple federal Indian policy theorists. Vine Deloria Jr. Who's one of the most famous ones, and David E. Wilkins, who talks about how there is no need for checks and balances within the federal Indian policy system. So you have Congress that is able to pass whatever act they want, and, and then you also have the Supreme Court, and then you also have executive action, but it wasn't really delineated that well, within, especially when it comes to this period as to who is going to be dealing with the Indians kind of thing. And so this kind of confusion and not really completely defining what it means to be a domestic dependent nation, I think really just goes to show how much of a fragile edifice like settler colonial policy is for it is within the system. But again, moving on, it comes back again to land. So the reservation era in 1861-1887, you have a lot of westward expansion of non Indians settlers, specifically to California. You also have the creation of Indian reservations and resulting Indian wars. So during this era, what you see a lot of are different types of attempts at assimilation and a lot of warfare. So you have a lot of the Plains tribes, my tribe, for instance, that are going through all of these battles, fighting forced removal onto reservations. One of the most famous ones was the Battle of Greasy Grass or the Little Bighorn where General Custer was killed by Sioux, Cheyennes and Arapahoes and different instances of battles such as those. And also where a lot of tribes were forcibly removed to areas that they were, weren't originally from. So like how the Cherokees were moved to Oklahoma, there's attempts of my tribe, for instance, Northern Cheyenne to be moved down to Oklahoma as well. And that's why there's some Southern Cheyennes in Oklahoma and then my tribe, the Northern Cheyennes in Montana. Another thing that is happening during this period are boarding schools, the boarding school era. So this attempts at assimilation through education and assimilation is also within, within the settler colonial kind of structure. It's, it's defined as a process where indigenous people end up conforming to different constructed notions of settler norms. So if they're not absorbed within the state completely, then their attempted attempt to be assimilated culturally through education, through languages, in terms of economics. So now you have a bunch of different sort of bureaucratic structures on these reservations trying to make tribal governments appear to be or constructed as settler colonial governments are. So maybe it's the three branches in ways that aren't just compatible with different tribes culturally. And you also have the attempted eradication of different kind of spiritual and cultural practices and a lot of Christianity being forced onto different people and just kind of terrible things that I think more and more people are becoming aware of due to, due to current movements. But we'll get into that later.

Dalia Kilsbach (41:53)

Yeah, a very short phase. Yeah. So the next phase is the Indian Reorganization Act. And so this only lasted six years from 1934 to 1940. So this is when allotment ended. As you said, the United States government was like, wait, this isn't working. What else can we do? The Indians aren't dying off. They're not assimilating, they're not acculturating. We don't know what to do with them. So maybe we'll have them adopt these constitutions. And a lot of them were just templates. So regardless of whether or not they were, I think, compatible with tribal, different tribes way of life, they were like, you have these constitutions now. Now you're, you're a tribe. And this is what each tribe has to look like in order for us, the federal government, to recognize you as a legitimate entity. And then so you have the establishment of these tribal governments that consist of tribal councils and business committees, et cetera. However, this period is fleeting, very fleeting. And next you have the Termination era. So this is the period of time where the federal government essentially even more so, wants to just get rid of the quote, unquote Indian problem, which is the existence of indigenous peoples that are reminders to the government essentially that they are a settler colonial force and they don't know what to do with us because they tried to commit genocide, they tried to remove us, et cetera, et cetera, it's still not working. They decided that our tribal governments aren't legitimate. And they just decide, well, it's too much to try to keep up with our treaties and what we promised them when it comes to health care, education, housing, et cetera, et cetera. How about we terminate our federal responsibility, our trust responsibility that are delineated in federal Indian policy and in our treaties and give them off to this, to the states to decide what to do with. And so during this period, you see sort of the federal dissolution of some tribes, such as the Menominee, and other ones as well. So this is another dark time. The dark times just keep on coming. And what federal Indian policy scholars have characterize federal policy as a pendulum. So swing swinging from side to side between this termin this termination of tribes. So the federal Indian government as trying to get rid of tribes, especially as you can see in this era, and then the pendulum of the other side is self determination. But both of these are held within the context of goals of assimilation. So this is just another phase of terribleness.

Dalia Kilsbach (45:39)

Yeah, a lot of These periods can be like dove into more and all of these different things. In every instance, in every instance of federal Indian policy, you have resistance, which we're not covering here right now, but you have instances throughout history where indigenous peoples have fought for their rights to land, to, for their community, to being sovereign nations, et cetera. And that's why the federal Indian. The federal government, not federal Indian government. The federal government has not been able to eradicate us, much to their dismay. And so now I'm going to switch into the era that we are considered to be in which I had mentioned when I talked about the pendulum of federal Indian policy. So now we are in the self determination era, which began in 1962. And we have the right, it's characterized with the revitalization of tribal entities. So going kind of back to when there was the Indian Reorganization Act. So we have our tribal councils, there's restoration of some tribes under federal recognition who were terminated. Again, not all of them. We also have the Indian Civil Rights Act. So this, this kind of guaranteed individual Indians some rights, not just characterized by their tribes. Also the self determination policy. So this is when Nixon condemns the termination policy and gave more control to Indians rather than the Bureau of Indian affairs, which is a federal bureau, and just kind of like other policies that have given the tribes more rights to determine for themselves and their own, their own people to a certain degree, underneath the federal government as domestic dependent nations. And again, I, I think that we have seen a lot more movement, but within the context of being within a settler colonial state. It's always, I think, a possibility that the federal Indian government or the federal government, I keep saying Indian, the federal government will try to take more and more. And I think, for instance, when it comes to issues of fishing rights, issues of hunting rights, with states, not even just with the federal government. So you have a lot of states throughout history, but still ongoing, that attempt to encroach on tribal treaties. And again, treaties are the basis of federal Indian policy. Without these treaties, the lands would have never been seceded to the United States. And so there's this, this sort of like legal, legal conundrum, I would say, of where all these, all treaties in the history of the United States with Indian tribes have been broken in some way, shape or form. But still American Indians have to live on their reservations instead of having their, their land back. And so nowadays a lot of movement has been towards land back. What this means, what is this process? And I think it means a lot of different things for different people, Indigenous people because, again, there's 574 federally recognized tribes. And so it's not one monolith of ideas, monolith of beliefs. But just by saying land back, that's like, recognition that this is our. This was our land first, and you're not keeping your side of the deal and never have been.

Dalia Kilsbach (52:25)

Right, right. And so I think what you see is a lot of solidarity across tribes because this is not new. This has never been new, and a lot of tribes can relate to that. And what you've seen, and what I hope that I've highlighted throughout this kind of very brief overview of federal policy is the different ways that indigenous rights to land and sovereignty has been attacked in different forms by settler and colonial governments. And I think that the day and age that we live in now has allowed for sort of more widespread solidarity, especially over social media. And so when we say land back, for me, how I interpret it as what people mean when they're saying it is recognition of our tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land that has not been respected. And then I also think that it means, well, if these treaties aren't being respected, then how is this treaty still valid? Right. How come we aren't getting our land back? Because you're not upholding your end of the deal. While some people also might mean and recognize that this whole United States government is a settler state. Right. Based on the doctrine of discovery, which is based on denying tribes and American Indians of their rights to this land. So some people might take it to this whole other context of, yeah, well, maybe this is. This is all of our land, et cetera, et cetera. But in practice, what does this look like? And I think in practice, a lot of people are seeing it with reparations or people buying land back for tribes and giving it back to tribes. And we have seen some of that, or also just people interrupting the narrative in their own mind of their Euro American identity. So non American Indians and primarily European settlers and their history of their own families taking part of the settler colonial process. And how has that. What about their lands? There's everyone who descends, I guess, from these. These settlers. And I want to be specific when I'm talking about Euro American settlers and how they currently benefit from these systems. And I think by saying land back, we're able to highlight this movement for tribal sovereignty and recognition on a global scale. Instead of searching for justice within the quote, unquote, like searching for justice within the courts of the conqueror, how do we expect for the conqueror to be held accountable for all of these atrocities, attempts at genocide, assimilation, et cetera? By taking it more towards a global scale, such as no, Dapple. Highlighting these to other people as these are injustices. This is ongoing genocide. I think that land back has many, like a plethora of meanings in that sense.

Dalia Kilsbach (57:16)

Yeah, for sure. So in terms of resources and reading, I have read Lorenzo Veracini's book on settler colonialism. That's really helpful when you're trying to understand that framework in terms of getting to know kind of more of the basics of like, current issues impacting tribes. The National Congress of American Indians does a lot of work on the federal level. If you want to talk more about kind of lived, current lived experiences of American Indians, there's illuminatives and getting more involved in those as well. I think that they have some tips, but I would recommend everyone getting more familiar with the land that they are on currently, the tribes within their state, and what they can do, not just on the local level, but on the state level to support tribal sovereignty. Because a lot of issues, for instance, I worked on the state policy level in Washington and in Montana and both of those have a significant amount of tribes, but you have a lot of legislation that's trying to happen that infringes on tribal treaty rights. And the thing is, as ugly as it may be to say, but sometimes voices of non indigenous peoples are listened to more within those contexts. So you need to get more involved on those levels. What sort of like nonprofit organizations work with your tribes or. And what sort of issues are impacting tribes? And again, these are all going to probably be surrounding tribal sovereignty. So maybe it's fishing Access, hunting rights, et cetera. I think that's a really good way to make some more tangible change, to feel like you're doing something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating yourself and making sure that their voices are at the forefront. And that's also applicable to the federal level, especially with, as you already said, like stop line three in Minnesota, contacting your legislators, et cetera, et cetera. And I think also when it comes to one of the larger issues besides environmental justice for indigenous peoples, such as pipelines, you have right now missing and murdered indigenous women. So looking into that a little bit more and who you can support, who's addressing those issues. Along with. There is another movement with boarding schools right now because there's been a lot of bodies of young children that have been uncovered. And this is not an issue that happened a long, long time ago. Like, for instance, my grandmother went to a boarding school. There's still schools that, although they're not called boarding schools right now, that were boarding schools, but are still in operation under different names, et cetera. So kind of familiarizing yourself with those histories. And then also there's a national. I think it's called the National Boarding School Healing Coalition, based out of Minnesota. And looking into them and supporting their efforts with this issue is also a good place to start.