Narrator / Host (2:07)

Media as we always do, we have included the sources for this podcast in the show notes. I've also included a link to Primrose's legal aid fundraiser if people would like to help out.

Narrator / Host (2:41)

The week before you're hearing this On a beautiful Southern California winter morning, I met some friends in a parking lot near the border. We hopped into our trucks and drove along dirt roads till we reached a pull up. Once there, we threw on packs and hiked straight up a steep hillside. Even in late November, the south facing slope was hot. We were all sweating by the time we reached the GPS location we'd been given. It wasn't hard to spot a dark patch on the landscape where someone's remains had returned to the earth. One friend had carried a heavy wooden cross up the mountain.

Narrator / Host (3:27)

We dug a hole in the rocky ground, then placed the white wooden cross in it. Silently, we filled the hole back up, stamped on the dirt until the cross stood straight up. Then we decorated it with marigolds and seashells and dried flower petals, doing the best we could. One friend carefully picked the petals off the flowers, laid them on the arms of the cross. Another sprinkled poppy seeds into the ground. We stood in silence for a while, but the construction of the secondary border wall didn't halt for a minute in silence, and then together we paid our respects to Graciela Suncion Gomez Hernandez, whose last moments were spent looking at the same sky we were looking at, gazing down onto the two border walls that were built to separate us from her. She died in September in the heat wave, the same month a year before I'd had to call 911 for several migrants with heatstroke I'd come across. She died, a friend told me, with her clothes folded next to her, sheltering under a bush. Looking from the place we erected the lonely little cross, that was all we had left. Remember her? I could see four border patrol surveillance antennas. She was just a few hundred yards from the wall, from the road, but it took weeks for anyone to find her. Graciela Suncion Gomez Hernandez.

Narrator / Host (4:51)

Present.

Narrator / Host (5:10)

Obviously we arrived too late to help, but we arrived soon enough to ensure that, at least in death, she was afforded the dignity the world has denied her in life. Then I strapped half a 50 gallon barrel into my backpack frame where my friends carried slabs of water bottles.

Narrator / Host (5:31)

As we walked, a construction vehicle above us drilled holes into the earth for pylons that would hold a second 30 foot wall. On the 60 degree slope above the vehicle, a helicopter flew around and then it flew back underneath it. We wrote the date on water bottles and threw them in a barrel. Yeah.

Narrator / Host (5:50)

Try to date.

Narrator / Host (5:59)

Okay? Doing this for years we've said goodbye to our fair share of people who he never got to say hello to and whose faces we never got to see. Last summer I helped search for the remains of a migrant who had passed away in a canyon deep in the desert. Every time I do this fills me with a deep sadness, especially with all the friends from the jungle who I've lost touch with since then it could be easy to look at everything I've laid out in this series and feel hopeless. But I don't want you to. It could be easy to feel afraid as well, because now is a time that caring about other people is dangerous. It's possible currently for some folks to keep their heads down and try and keep themselves safe, or to confine their actions to our angry posting on social media. But our politics shouldn't be about anger. It should be about love. Now more than ever, it's important to remember that we don't act on our love and our solidarity with angry tweets. We act on it by taking care of people. However many walls they build, however many masked men with guns they send, I don't believe it's within the power of the state to stop people caring about each other, and I hope that that care compels people to do something. In fact, I think seeing so much cruelty makes us all realize that it's up to us to care for one another. People have cared for Primrose and Kim in all kinds of ways since they came here, and today we're going to hear from some of them. Friends bought Kimberly's schoolbooks while they were stuck in Mexico. Some other folks put on a burlesque performance here in San Diego to raise money for her lawyer. Hundreds of you reached into your pockets to help her pay for her legal and living expenses when the state, both under Biden and under Trump, made her and Kimberly feel unwelcome. You didn't. I've carried my fair share of water into the desert under the Biden administration as well. It was Biden's policies that left little Noemi stuck in Mexico, not Trump's. It was Biden's policies that detain people in the open air and left them with no food or water or shelter. And it was everyday people like my friends and I who fed them and sheltered them and took care of them. We took donations and dived into dumpsters to grab tents and worked hard every day to build shelters, cook food, and give away clothing so that people could feel welcome and safe here. Not a single elected official gave out a single sandwich, much less made one in the months that thousands of people were detained outdoors in Ocumba and San Isidro. But people from churches, Gurdwaras, Latter Day Saints people, and Quakers, as well as a whole lot of anarchists and crust punks and just desert people with no particular politics, did. I'm not saying this to pat us on the back. I don't think Any of us really wanted to be mentioned at all. Like many of us, some of my happiest memories were the days we fed strangers, then sat around fires sharing stories and sometimes songs. Since then, I've been privileged to share the joys and struggles some of those people faced in their new lives here. I've attended their weddings. I've tried to help them understand Appalachian accents, and I've helped them come to terms with the fact that you simply can't get around large parts of this country without a car. I'm saying this because I think it's important that whatever happens after this current administration, we can't ever go back to the way things were before. We can't let migrants be invisible in our communities. We can't let them keep dying at the border. Let's talk about what caring looks like in Primrose's case. This time last year, I just released my daring Gap podcast. And a few weeks later, I received a direct message via my Patreon newsletter. It was from a guy called Matt.

Matt (9:34)

My name's Matt. I'm just a normal person who listens to a lot of podcasts.

Narrator / Host (9:39)

I didn't know him and he didn't know me, but he listened to the podcast I made.

Matt (9:43)

I can still very vividly remember where I was when I listened to that, which was I was coming back from a dirt biking trip in Michigan, and so I had a seven hour and I was like, oh, cool, here's a three hour podcast that I'll listen to. And then I started listening to it and then I was just like, I got into that mode where I was just like, I couldn't not finish it. I was like, absolutely hooked and just needed to get all the way to the end and was just really, really moved by the whole thing.

Narrator / Host (10:20)

Like many Americans until relatively late in the Biden administration, Matt knew about immigration, but he hadn't really grappled with the fact that what secure borders means is killing innocent people in the jungle, in the desert, and everywhere in between. That's how deterrence works. That's how it's supposed to work.

Matt (10:39)

Like, I didn't realize that that was, like, intentional. And then hearing, you know, hearing yours, I was just sort of like, oh, right. Like just the fact that people would go to such a. Just such lengths of danger on a journey just across a continent and knowing that once they get here, they're not even welcome, right? We're going to intentionally put up this kind of life or death obstacle course. I kept thinking about it, and the next day. I was like, let me see if you've done anything else on it. And I found a couple of your other episodes on it and I was like, wow, this is wild. And that was. You were talking about the open air detention in the Jacumba area. And I was like, this is crazy. This is just happening just right outside of San Diego. I mean, it's just wild.

Narrator / Host (11:38)

Matt felt like now that he knew this, he couldn't not do something about it. So he took some of his vacation time at work and came to Southern California.

Matt (11:46)

The thing that was crazy is seeing all the equipment, equipment, if you can call it that, left behind by the people traveling through these places where it's just like normal shoes and just like cheap Walmart backpacks and just, you know, the, the just basic stuff that you would just like wear to school.

Narrator / Host (12:09)

Matt joined friends of mine in the mountains, carrying water and helping with some tech issues we've been wondering about. He saw the wall and he saw the damage it does. He saw the difficult terrain people have to cross just to get a chance to ask for help here, the ways they have to risk their lives even after they make it to the usa. He also got to experience the way that helping other people helps us.

Matt (12:31)

As I was heading back home, I definitely had this feeling about, like, way less despair, getting together with people to just do something, to just do something useful to help people. Even if it's just like in a tiny way, like even if somehow it doesn't help, but it's like it probably will. But importantly, doing it with other people, it made me feel a lot better. It made me not feel so. Like just everything is fucked. Like the world is descending into fascism or when there's nothing I can do about it. It's like there are a lot of people who want to help. Doing stuff with them is like, is good.

Narrator / Host (13:15)

Soon after, like all of us, he saw the border bringing its violence into cities across the United States.

Matt (13:21)

I mean, like just masked federal agents, we assume, mostly refusing to identify themselves, just randomly picking people up. I mean, it's crazy and.

Matt (13:35)

I mean, I literally am a loss for words. I mean, it's just, it's so the opposite of what America is all about. Straight up, like fascism. Like, I just, I never thought I would live through something like this. I always just thought that's the kind of thing that happens in other countries.

Narrator / Host (13:54)

You know, I guess a lot of us thought that. A lot of us probably thought this kind of state violence was confined to other places. And other times we wondered perhaps Absentmindedly, what we might do in those places and times. For years, as a historian and a reporter, I've thought about them, read about them, visited them. Now I'm living in them.

Matt (14:13)

It's always just sort of like in the same way that you would think what would happen if I was in this, I don't know, movie? Like, it's not real. Just think like, oh, what if I was Jason Bourne?

Narrator / Host (14:25)

Matt and I stayed in touch. One day he was in LA on business and I mentioned I'd been helping Primrose navigate the mass transit nightmare that is Los Angeles so she could get to her ICE appointment. He offered to stop by if she needed a ride anywhere. I connected them, he saw her place and he offered to help her get some furniture as well. Then it was time for him to fly home. Every day, like I do, he had to worry about someone he knew being snatched. The Florida settlement doesn't stop ICE from redetaining people. And in la, they seem to be detaining anyone they could, any way they could. Kim had been afraid to go out now because she didn't want to go back to detention. So once again, Matt decided he wanted to do something. And he asked if Kim and Primrose might like to come and stay with him on the East Coast. That's not an easy choice to make. Not only does it mean sharing your space, it also means taking yourself out of a safe group and accepting that the state's eye of Sauron might fall on you now.

Matt (15:17)

You know, I talked it over with my wife and we were like, you know, both wanted to do this, but, you know, we had to acknowledge, like, it might mean that, like, these in masks show up at our house, like, where our kids are and are, like, gonna haul away just this family that might happen in, like, right over there. I mean, I don't like it, but I just. I don't know, I just. I feel like you gotta do. Just gotta do something, you know?

Narrator / Host (15:51)

In the end, he says it wasn't a hard decision to make.

Matt (15:54)

I mean, it was a lot easier because my wife was actually just like, 100%, let's do it. And I was like, well, hold on a second. We should at least think through the outcome. She's like, I don't care. Whatever, just do it.

Narrator / Host (16:07)

Like a lot of people, Matt had always done things to help people, but nothing like this. Nothing that directly put him in between someone who needed to be kept safe and the people who didn't want them to be safe.

Matt (16:17)

Yeah, I mean, nothing is dangerous. I mean, charity stuff, but you know, sometimes with time, but usually just like giving money to people to, you know, who need it or whatever. But you know, this is definitely the most like direct involvement to help someone who needs it certainly is the first time that I've exposed my family to anything like this.

Matt (16:51)

The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with iFit trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet, and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere.

Announcer / Advertiser (17:21)

If you're a maintenance supervisor for a commercial property, you've had to deal with everything from leaky faucets to flickering light bulbs. But nothing's worse than that ancient boiler that's lived in the building since the day it was built 50 years ago. It's enough to make anyone lose their cool. That's where Grainger comes in. With industrial grade products and dependable, fast delivery, Grainger can help with any challenge, from worn out components to everyday necessities. Call clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Matt (17:51)

I'm Robert Smith, this is Jacob Goldstein.

Announcer / Advertiser (17:53)

And we used to host a show called Planet Money.

Matt (17:55)

And now we're back making this new.

Announcer / Advertiser (17:57)

Podcast called Business History about the best.

Matt (18:01)

Ideas and people and businesses in history and some of the worst people, horrible ideas and destructive companies in the history of business. Having a genius idea without a need.

Narrator / Host (18:13)

For it is nothing.

Matt (18:15)

It's like not having it at all. It's a very simple, elegant lesson. Make something people want. First episode How Southwest Airlines use cheap seats and free whiskey to fight its way into the airline business. The most Texas story ever. There's a lot of mavericks in that story. We're going to have mavericks on the show.

Announcer / Advertiser (18:32)

We're going to have plenty of robber barons.

Matt (18:33)

So many robber barons.

Announcer / Advertiser (18:34)

And you know what?

Matt (18:35)

They're not all bad. And we'll talk about some of the classic great moments of famous business geniuses, along with some of the darker moments that often get overlooked, like Thomas Edison.

Narrator / Host (18:44)

And the electric chair.

Matt (18:46)

Listen to business history on the iHeartRadio.

Announcer / Advertiser (18:48)

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Announcer / Advertiser (18:55)

May 24, 1990. A pipe bomb explodes in the front seat of environmental activist Judy Berry's car.

Narrator / Host (19:03)

I knew it was a bomb. The second that it exploded, I felt it rip through me with just a force more powerful and terrible than anything that I could describe.

Announcer / Advertiser (19:12)

In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry.

Matt (19:17)

And why she received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing.

Narrator / Host (19:23)

The men and women who were heard had planned to lead a summer of militant protest against logging practices in Northern California.

Announcer / Advertiser (19:30)

They were climbing trees and they were.

Narrator / Host (19:32)

Sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

Matt (19:35)

The timber industry, I mean, it was.

Announcer / Advertiser (19:36)

The number one industry in the area.

Matt (19:38)

But more than it was the culture, it was the way of life. I think that this is a deliberate.

Narrator / Host (19:42)

Attempt to sabotage our movement.

Announcer / Advertiser (19:44)

Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Narrator / Host (20:00)

So one day this autumn, Primrose and Kimberly said goodbye to Los Angeles, got on a plane, flew to the East Coast.

Matt (20:07)

I thought I was waiting at the right spot, but they let him out at a different.

Matt (20:14)

So they actually walked past me in the airport. I didn't even see it, but I eventually figured it out. Luckily, the airport is not that big and so I could just sort of walk, walk all the baggage claim area. And I eventually found them.

Narrator / Host (20:28)

Then they went for sushi, then for ice cream. A perfect suburban strip mall American evening, the sort of evening people cross jungles and deserts to be able to enjoy. The sort of evening that hundreds of people I met in the jungle will never be able to enjoy. Of course, it's hard to sit in a cold zone and talk about the things people endure to come here. Matt says sometimes it's still difficult to even comprehend what his new friends have been through.

Matt (20:51)

It's hard to answer like, you're asking me a very good question about, like, well, what was it like?

Narrator / Host (20:55)

Et cetera.

Matt (20:55)

And it's like the difference, the distance between our shared experience is so vast it still often almost doesn't seem real.

Narrator / Host (21:04)

I've had that same thought. It's hard to hear stories from migrants and really think of them as human experiences, not just stories. That's why I go into the mountains and the desert. It's why I spent a decade asking editors to send me to Darien. I don't think I could understand migrants journeys if I hadn't experienced a little part of them. And I don't think we should write about migrants or not write about what they go through to get to a strip mall sushi place. Of course, Primrose isn't done with her interaction with immigration authorities yet. They've had visits from ICE in her new home, but not from Enforcement Removal Operations.

Matt (21:39)

I mean, like, they know where she lives. We told them where she lives. So, like, she lives in my house, so, you know. Yeah, they might. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I guess I'm like, not as afraid of that. I have to say that the ICE people in.

Matt (22:03)

Seem just like a bunch of cheery folks.

Matt (22:09)

It seems pretty different than. I mean, I met many of them.

Narrator / Host (22:16)

Yeah.

Matt (22:17)

Part of this process. And they were not the like, you know, plate carriers and guns guys. They were just like the, you know, they work in the office and decide whether you get to move here or not, you know. Right.

Narrator / Host (22:34)

Yeah, yeah.

Matt (22:35)

And they were like, very friendly and downright helpful.

Narrator / Host (22:40)

Primrose is settling in at Matt's place now, but as Matt explained, their struggle isn't over yet.

Matt (22:46)

Now, like, our energy is, is more on how do we help her make her case, because she has an asylum case that, you know, she, she needs to win. And it's, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but wow. Sounds like what asylum is for. Literally running from a hostile government that she was protesting and was going to jail and torture her. Like, what. What is asylum for if not for that?

Narrator / Host (23:20)

Of course, interacting with the asylum system has shown Matt some of its absurdities, like the work permit clock, the four hour bus rides to Riverside, and the endless changing regulations one has to navigate while trying to survive without the ability to legally work.

Matt (23:35)

In what way can you do this legally without some, you know, group helping you? Without like just somebody saying, fine, I will take you and pay for your living expenses? What is the legal way to like, seek asylum? You come here, they put you in jail, you stay in jail, which is fucking jail.

Narrator / Host (23:57)

Yeah.

Matt (23:58)

Or they let you out of jail. Good, hooray, we're out of jail. And now you're homeless.

Narrator / Host (24:03)

Yeah.

Matt (24:03)

Like, you have no possessions and no ability to legally work. At least let them work. I mean, come on, like, just let, let them get a legal job. That's just like the, the sort of bureaucracy version of the forcing people across the desert. It's like, well, okay, you won't die in the desert. In, in this one. In this one, you will die or you will suffer under homelessness. More deterrence. You know, everyone always says, oh, I support immigration. Just gotta be legal, you gotta do it the right way. But they have no idea what they're talking about. Like, what is the right way? I believe everyone who says that has no idea what the right way is.

Narrator / Host (24:47)

Changing that Making our laws line up with what anyone would see as basic decency isn't coming anytime soon. In the meantime, they have to navigate the asylum system and its many contradictions. Primrose never got any follow up care for her leg injury. The only way she could access care in her new home was once again totally impractical for someone without a car. Just another example of how the system sets people up to suffer and fail.

Matt (25:12)

There's no way to get her to the doctor. Well, okay, there is a way.

Narrator / Host (25:16)

A way.

Matt (25:17)

Technically, we could drive like an hour and 20 minutes way out to this place that like has a thing with the ice that they will say like, well, that's your approved, like medical provider. Like, I'm not going to drive an hour, 20 minutes each way to just do some minor thing.

Narrator / Host (25:42)

Yeah.

Matt (25:42)

So we pay out of pocket. So we go to a doctor and we go. Here is the problem we have. We don't have insurance. Let's get this done for as little money as possible. Because in the United States, if you don't have insurance, it is going to cost you.

Narrator / Host (25:58)

Yeah. A lot.

Matt (26:00)

And mercifully, my wife and I both know a number of doctors that we can sort of run ideas by. And if we didn't have that, like, I don't know what we would do. It would not be good. I mean, I know what we'd do. We would drive an hour and 20 minutes to the place and we would just be like, okay, doctor help. But like, because, you know, we have connections and we are also willing to pay a little bit out of pocket. She needed to get some medicine. Medicine is super expensive.

Narrator / Host (26:33)

Yeah.

Matt (26:35)

So you go to the CVS and you're like, well, you know, oh, we don't have your insurance on file. We're like, I know, but how much is this going to really cost? And dude, drugs are so expensive. Like, it's just.

Matt (26:52)

What are those people supposed to do?

Narrator / Host (26:54)

It's a broken system and it's not one we can really rely on government to change whoever's in office.

Matt (26:59)

The Democrats don't have a great answer for this either. I wish they did. I mean, I will still vote for them because they're at least less bad.

Narrator / Host (27:11)

Yeah.

Matt (27:12)

You know what, what other choice do you have? It's like if there was a better party, I would be that one that, I mean, if they had a chance of winning, right?

Narrator / Host (27:21)

Yeah, yeah. They don't make a difference.

Matt (27:23)

No other party has a chance of winning. So yeah, man, I'm a Democrat. Like, I will help the Democrats try to win elections, they push it in the direction that it needs to go. Like, but the Democrats are part of the problem. I mean, like, they're, they're not radically changing policies that would change this thing we've been talking about for the last hour.

Matt (27:54)

10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

Narrator / Host (28:04)

You are the fittest of the fit.

Matt (28:07)

Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract for $250,000.

Narrator / Host (28:13)

This is where mindset comes in. Someone will be eliminated.

Matt (28:17)

Pressure is coming down.

Narrator / Host (28:20)

This is Trainer Games.

Matt (28:22)

Watch it on prime video starting January 8th.

Announcer / Advertiser (28:25)

If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why, hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering with on time restocks. Your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

Narrator / Host (28:55)

It's okay not to be okay sometimes.

Announcer / Advertiser (28:57)

And be able to build strength and.

Narrator / Host (28:59)

Love within each other.

Matt (29:00)

Thanksgiving isn't just about food. It's a day for us to show up for for one another. I'm Elliot Connie, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope. What would be a clue that would be like? I've gotten lots of text messages from him. This one's from a little bit better.

Narrator / Host (29:17)

Of a version of him because he's feeding himself well. It's always a concern like, are you eating well? He's actually an amazing cook. There was this one time where we had neighbors and I saved their dog and I ended up inviting them over for food. And that was like one of my proudest moments.

Matt (29:33)

This is family Therapy. Real families, real stories on a journey to heal together. Listen to season two of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Announcer / Advertiser (29:50)

Tis the season for all your holiday.

Narrator / Host (29:52)

Favorites like a very Jonas Christmas movie and Home Alone on Disney.

Matt (29:57)

Burn down the joy?

Narrator / Host (29:58)

I don't think so. Then Hulu has National Lampoon's Christmas vacation.

Matt (30:01)

We're all in for a very big Christmas treat.

Announcer / Advertiser (30:03)

All of these and more streaming this.

Narrator / Host (30:05)

Holiday season and right now, save big.

Announcer / Advertiser (30:07)

With our special Black Friday offer bundle.

Narrator / Host (30:09)

Disney plus and Hulu for just $4.99.

Matt (30:10)

A month for one year.

Narrator / Host (30:11)

Savings compared to current regular monthly price.

Announcer / Advertiser (30:13)

Ends 121 offer for ad supported Disney.

Narrator / Host (30:15)

Plus Hulu bundle only then $12.99 a.

Announcer / Advertiser (30:17)

Month or then current regular monthly price 18 plus terms apply.

Narrator / Host (30:25)

When I first moved to the us George W. Bush was president. Soon after I got here, Obama was elected and it was Thanksgiving. I didn't know much about Thanksgiving and I didn't have much time for history that overlooked settler colonialism anyway. But the day before I was riding my bike down the coast and I ran into some folks who were also riding their bikes. They asked what plans I had for the next day and I told them I was just going to ride my bike all day. That's what I like to do. They, having just met me, invited me into their home the next day. They fed me and we talked for hours and became friends. A decade and a half later, on the night before Thanksgiving, my friends cooked as many beans as they could fit in their giant pot that we boiled above a propane burner made from half a beer keg. In the cold of the desert, some Kurdish guys helped us ladle out scoops of hot stew for hundreds of people. I still don't go in for settler colonialism very much, but I felt thankful to be in a position where I could welcome people now. That same year, on Christmas Eve, I was sitting on the tailgate of a pickup in the desert, kicking my feet so my toes wouldn't burn with cold. I spent the entire day building shelters for people out in the desert, left there for up to a week by the Biden administration. We'd handed out all our food again, but some folks who'd been taking care of their kids or trying to find a warm place out the desert, wind to sleep, had missed out on eating, so I'd found a few boxes of HDRs, which are kind of like a worse but vegan version of MREs, and I took them from the truck and went over to the people who had missed dinner. They heated them up somehow on a piece of scrap metal over the fire. I can't really remember other than thinking it was really janky. I struggle to describe how special it felt for me to be able to share a little of the welcome I received with other people. Like Matt, I feel more hopeful knowing that not only are other people just as upset as I am, but that alongside those other people I can do things that I wouldn't have thought possible if I hadn't seen them with my own eyes and done them with my own hands. From Obama to today, it's been up to us to welcome migrants. Obama set records for deportation. Biden beat them, albeit including Title 42 removals, and Trump will probably beat both this year. In the meantime, it's up to regular people to help one another. That shouldn't make us feel hopeless. It should make us feel strong. Matt's doing something remarkable, but I don't think he was in a very remarkable situation before. He was just a person lucky enough to have some spare time and some space to look after someone. But there are millions of people like that in this country. There are millions of people who are mad right now, but anger alone is not going to help us take care of people. That's what the priority should be right now. I don't want to paint Matt as the only person who helped Primrose because hundreds of people helped Primrose from the embarrass in the jungles of Panama and her fellow migrants while she crossed the Darien Gap. People across a continent took their time and their resources to help a stranger. I've heard of this from countless migrants as well. Some of them rode the train from southern Mexico up to the border, and people threw them food and warm jumpers to total strangers who they'd never met, who they'd never even get a chance to see across thousands of miles. When states ignored their suffering. The hundreds of migrants I have talked to found food, shelter, and solidarity from ordinary people. And those people, in their own way, benefited, too.

Matt (33:43)

It was enlightening to me that a. I wasn't. It wasn't just me. Like, it's not just, oh, I. For some reason, I am the only one who's, like, really upset by all this. You know, there are other folks who, Who. Who are like this, but. But also just like a lot of other people are absolutely willing to take risks, be generous with their time and money. Like, there's a lot of them. There's a lot of people who, like, want to help. And that kind of community aspect of it. It was a surprise to me that the doing it with other people was so powerful. Like, I thought it was just about the doing the actual act of helping people somehow. But doing it with other people was just surprisingly good. Made me feel much more optimistic about our ability to get through this collectively.

Narrator / Host (34:39)

I asked Matt what he wanted people to know about his experience.

Matt (34:42)

Well, I mean, I guess what I would like people to know is it's not as hard as you might think to help folks like Primrose. Like, it sounds insurmountable. Like, oh, no, I'm exposed to all this risk and danger and legal hassle or whatever. But it's like, it's not that complicated. It's like they fill out a form and it just says, like, oh, now I live here. And then once prove it, then they live there.

Narrator / Host (35:09)

The hard part is finding someone, especially now that migrants are more worried than ever to be out and in the community. Any database would be a risk to them. But maybe that's not a problem that someone can solve.

Matt (35:20)

It's kind of like an information sharing problem, because, like, these folks are all across the United States, and the people who could host them are similarly all across the United States.

Narrator / Host (35:34)

But you don't have to take someone into your home. There are hundreds of things you can do wherever you are. You can feed people who are hungry, pick up someone's kid from school, or take their dogs for a walk, fix someone's car so it doesn't get towed or ticketed, or drive someone to a doctor's appointment. Creating safe communities for migrants is not a distinct act from creating safe communities for everyone. I've never been a big political theory reader, but I think I've learned everything I need to know about politics in refugee camps and the deserts and mountains and jungles that migrants traverse to get to this country. In Panama, I met with a priest who houses migrants. In California, I've helped Sikhs and Quaker friends hand out warm food in the cold. We can come from a broad range of perspectives and still get to the same place. When someone needs help, you help them. And if we all do that, then when we need help, someone will help us. You don't have to wait four years to start. You can do it right now. While there are only some things we can do in the face of a government that doesn't want to help people like Primrose, there is an awful lot that we can do for all the people who didn't make it to the USA from the jungle. We can help the people who did. We can also take this principle and make it a cornerstone of all our politics. The more people come to know migrants, the more they will see how broken our system is. The more people who see that, the more people will demand change. And I hope that they won't stop until we get a system that doesn't look at little children who aren't safe and say, we don't want to help you. Until we get a system that doesn't make them walk across jungles and through deserts before they even get a chance to ask for help. Before I go, I thought I would play a part of the interview I did with Senor Bonillo in Bajojiquito last year. I spoke to his son on Monday and he said his dad's still doing well.

Matt (37:29)

Truly, the migrants on this route are not here because they want to be. They are here because the economy in their countries is terrible or something. Everything is going badly on their countries.

Matt (37:43)

How could we mistreat them knowing that we won't, not us, never. This is a belief that we have. We are all children of God. God made the world and humanity and we are not that different. We are all brothers.

Narrator / Host (38:04)

I want to leave the last word today to Primrose because really, this is a story about her and Kim and the incredible tenacity and courage they showed to get here.

Primrose (38:13)

Even if I say I can me myself, I can say thank you. I don't even know how to say thank you. But I'm just. God knows God, please bless those people who put hands on me and Kim. I thought maybe I'm alone, but I realize I'm not alone here. I have also people who helped me.

Primrose (38:36)

You guys helped me so much. I never even get helped, even in my country, the way I get helped here in America.

Primrose (38:46)

And I'm really, really.

Primrose (38:51)

Glad. I'm very glad for those people who helped me. I have especially since even when I was in Mexico. In my prayers I just say, God, just bless those people who put hands on me. You make me feel better. You put smile in my face. And even Kim both. When we came here, I wasn't even having clothes to wear. Nothing. They just only the clothes they gave us in detention when they detain us. That the clothes I was having, I was. Was when I want to wash. It was a T shirt jacket. I just removed the. The top. Then I wash the. The inside the T shirt when it's dry. Then I we both and put the new one. We were like. But for now, I'm really, really appreciated a lot.

Primrose (39:45)

I really appreciate a lot because.

Primrose (39:50)

My life is like changing now.

Narrator / Host (39:52)

So.

Primrose (39:53)

Yeah.

Narrator / Host (39:53)

Yeah. And it's.

Narrator / Host (39:58)

Like you were saying, the things Kim will have will be so different from the chances you had. Right? She can go to. She speaks English, she speaks Spanish. She can go to school here.

Primrose (40:12)

Yeah.

Narrator / Host (40:13)

Does that make you happy when you think about that?

Primrose (40:15)

Yeah.

Primrose (40:17)

Even if I even told you, Kim, I was asking you one day, I said, kim, what if I die today?

Primrose (40:25)

She was even mentioning your name. Said, I will just ask him. Maybe I can just go to school.

Primrose (40:32)

Yeah. She yeah, wish also she was like, mommy, I want to write my book when I start high school. I need to write my story of my life because we have been through a lot, but now we are happy. I don't want to lie with your support, guys. I'm really appreciative. Yeah, because if she go to school, I'm happy. I know she I want you to have a better life. Yeah.

Narrator / Host (41:03)

It Could Happen. Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.