Darién Gap: One Year Later | Part Three: The American Nightmare

Summary

It Could Happen Here – Darién Gap: One Year Later | Part Three: The American Nightmare

Podcast: It Could Happen Here (Cool Zone Media/iHeartPodcasts)
Date: December 3, 2025
Episode Description: In this episode, the hosts continue the story of Primrose and Kimberly—migrants who braved the Darién Gap—and detail the new, more hostile landscape for migrants and asylum seekers in America under a return of the Trump administration.

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode chronicles the journey of Primrose and her daughter Kimberly as they navigate a drastically more punitive U.S. immigration system following the re-election of Donald Trump. Through the personal lens of their experience—detention, legal hurdles, uncertainty, and moments of community—the show examines what the new American nightmare looks like for migrants, how rapidly policy has changed, and the resilience of those seeking safety in the face of systemic cruelty.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Immediate Crackdown on Migrants Post-Election

• Policy changes: Within hours of Trump retaking office, sweeping executive orders were enacted:
  • Attempted rescinding of birthright citizenship for migrants’ children.
  • Ending of CBP1 asylum appointments and construction of new border walls.
  • Expanded powers under the border emergency declaration, new military deployments, and ramped-up surveillance.
• Impact:
  • Asylum cases effectively halted; expedited removals (deportations) became standard (05:04).
  • Increased raids by ICE, DEA, FBI, and other agencies—including on college campuses and apartment buildings (02:15–06:15).
  • Mass device searches of newcomers, not just for crimes but for criticizing political leaders.

Quote:

“...There are no new asylum cases. People who cross at the southern border are now detained, only to be removed immediately... none of that [credible fear interviews, parole] is happening anymore.”
— Kirsten Zitlau, Primrose's lawyer (05:04)

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2. Life Inside a "Police State Lite"

• Fear and Confusion:
  • Unmarked agents detaining migrants, echoing authoritarian practices many fled from (06:15).
• Judicial Overreach:
  • Judges sending "self-deport" notices inappropriately to people mid-case (07:02).
• Brutality and International Bargains:
  • Migrants sent to El Salvador’s notorious “megaprison.”
  • Prisoner swaps with hostile foreign regimes; others flee the U.S. southward.

Quote:

“It’s a due process violation. They’re entitled to a neutral judge.”
— Kirsten Zitlau (07:34)

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3. Community Response, Resistance & Protest

• Neighborhood Organizing:
  • As ICE raids escalate, locals—often not prior activists—start tracking federal agents, warning each other, and protecting neighbors (09:00).
  • Use of apps like Nextdoor and Ring reversed to protect, not target, marginalized residents.
• Protests Ignite:
  • LA becomes a flashpoint: Border Patrol raids met with mass protests, tear gas, arrests of labor leaders, and violence against reporters (11:00–14:00).
  • Protesters include children of migrants, fighting for their parents and communities.
  • Story of Dennis Huerta, union leader, arrested during a protest.

Quote:

“My family... they’re susceptible to all the ICE raids... being a citizen here, I feel like it’s my duty to come out here and speak out for those who can.”
— Anonymous protester (14:13)

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4. Primrose’s Odyssey: Detention, Bureaucracy & Survival

• Timeline:
  • Frequent ICE check-ins, confusion over documents, surprise detentions—even for those following all rules (21:06–22:44).
  • Separated from family and support networks, kept uninformed, moved between facilities by bus, plane, hotel, often without explanation.
• Alternatives to Detention:
  • GPS ankle monitors, app check-ins—a form of surveillance often running parallel to actual detentions (26:44).
• Inside Detention:
  • Overcrowding, language barriers, lack of resources; Spanish-speaking detainees isolating others.
  • Depression and anxiety spike; minimal support or information from authorities (31:04–41:06).
  • Psychological pressure to self-deport—ICE staff distributing forms in rooms (41:27) and using indifference as a strategy to break detainees’ spirits.

Quote:

“The only thing I can even tell you guys, if you are tired staying here, you can... just sign. Put your A number, your phone... then they can make you ticket here.”
— Primrose, recalling an ICE officer’s words (41:27)

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5. Children in Detention & the Flores Settlement

• Legal Limits:
  • Flores agreement limits detention of children to 20 days; constantly violated but often the only hope for families (30:26).
• Isolation and Resilience:
  • Little support for non-Spanish speakers; children sometimes help creatively bridge gaps (32:30–39:02).

Quote:

“Kimberly... she was learning, understanding Spanish. So sometimes she'd be like, ‘Mommy, they said this and that’...”
— Primrose (39:02)

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6. Release & Ongoing Hardship

• Community Support:
  • Grassroots fundraising, local legal networks, and this podcast’s listeners instrumental in securing release (44:37).
• Work Permit Limbo:
  • Nearly a year later, Primrose still cannot work legally; a technicality involving asylum "work clock" used to further delay and impoverish migrants (46:36).
• Life After Detention:
  • Trauma lingers; public shaming from viral videos, skepticism about government compassion (47:55).
  • Momentary joy—a Disneyland trip, acts of neighborly kindness—juxtaposed with uncertainty and fear.

Quote:

“These people are joining our communities. They risk their lives to come and live here with us. And it’s us who should welcome them.”
— Narrator/Interviewer (48:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On legal limbo:

  “They released me on the 10th... but the release felt like a victory, she still faced the same difficulties she had before. Primrose could not legally work... her work permit still hasn’t come, right?” (45:28–46:09)

• On resilience:

  “Because when I was in detention, there’s a time I was like, ah, I’m going to sign a deportation form... [Kimberly said:] No, people, they are going to kill you. If you want to go back, it’s up to you. If you want to go die, go. Not me.”
  — Primrose and Kimberly (42:24)

• On state cruelty:

  “The depression, hunger, boredom and misery that characterize ICE detention is not a bug, it’s a feature.” (43:03)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:15] – Policy crackdown, asylum halted, and beginning of raids.
• [05:04] – Kirsten Zitlau explains the new immediate-removal regime.
• [07:02] – Judicial misconduct: “self-deport” notices and due process violations.
• [09:00] – Community organizing, resistance and mutual aid develop.
• [11:00–14:00] – LA protests, police violence, and immigrant generations stand up.
• [22:44] – Primrose describes detention procedures, confusion, and ICE inconsistency.
• [26:44] – Explanation of alternatives to detention and their shortcomings.
• [31:04–41:06] – Life inside detention; language, mental health, isolation, pressure to “self-deport”.
• [44:37] – Grassroots support, legal fight, eventual (slow) release.
• [46:36] – The “work permit clock” and how administrative decisions drag out limbo.
• [47:55] – Viral video trauma and the challenges of integrating post-detention.
• [48:45–end] – Community care, hope, and the episode’s closing message.

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Overall Tone and Language

• Intimate, empathetic, and urgent—lived experience is foregrounded.
• Despondency mixed with resolve and occasional moments of warmth.
• Dedicated to humanizing those caught in dehumanizing systems.

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Closing Reflection

The episode underscores the transformation of the U.S. from refuge to danger for many migrants, not simply as abstract policy, but as intimately experienced by families like Primrose and Kimberly. The podcast foregrounds community solidarity and resistance as essential, showing how hope can persist despite state-sanctioned cruelty—and that ordinary people can make an extraordinary difference.

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For further sources, legal aid links, and continuing coverage, see the show notes from It Could Happen Here.

Transcript

[Primrose]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

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I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it rip through me.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry and why. They were climbing trees and they were.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

She received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

I think that this is a deliberate.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

Attempt to sabotage our movement.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

As we always do, we have included the sources for this podcast in the show Notes. I've also included a link to Primrose's legal aid fundraiser if people would like to help. For Rose, Noemi, Primrose and the dozens of other migrants I met in the jungle. The goal was to get here. Some of them had friends they wanted to stay with, but many did not. They just wanted a chance. A chance to work and be paid a fair wage. A chance for their kids to have a dream and a future. A chance to sleep safely at night. Once they got across that line, over that wall or across that river, they wanted to make their case for asylum, to ask for help and someone to keep them safe, to give them an opportunity to build their lives again. But even for the very few who made it, the risks weren't over. Within hours of taking office, Trump had begun signing executive orders that would make life for migrants on the way to the USA and those already here even more difficult. To the cheers of the crowd, he signed an order that kept TikTok online, pardoned the people who stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021 and attempted to rescind birthright citizenship from the children of migrants. He ended CBP1 and with his Sharpie ordered the building of more walls and the resulting death of more people who came here to ask for help. Within days of Trump taking office, federal agents from ice, the dea, the FBI and other agencies have begun a campaign of maid for social media raids. In Colorado, they raided apartment buildings which had played a load bearing role in right wing conspiracies about trend months before at universities. They grabbed young men and women off campus for the crime of opposing genocide. People entering the country were stopped and had their devices searched, not just for evidence of crime, but also for evidence of mocking the president or the vice president. Trump added various organized crime groups, the list of foreign terrorist organizations and attempted to totally ban asylum, including for the people fleeing those very organizations. People who had waited months for an appointment on CBP1 now had their appointment canceled. They were left totally without hope at risk and with nowhere to go for help. Trump used a border emergency declaration to justify his proclamation and quickly followed up with more military deployments, wall construction and a huge increase in the funding for state surveillance. People still crossed, but their numbers decreased as many of them were quickly deported back to Mexico. Here's Kirsten Zitlau, Primrose's lawyer, explaining the new system.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

So there are no new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at the southern border are now detained, only to be removed immediately, basically, or as soon as possible under what's called 212F authority. It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act. Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that if the President finds a certain class of immigrants or the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests of the United States. They may, by proclamation, you know, suspend all entry of said immigrants. So whereas people used to get credible fear interviews or were paroled into the United States to be allowed to fight an asylum case, none of that is happening anymore. And people are, if anything, only screened for what's called Convention Against Torture screenings to just determine, like, hey, are they going to be tortured by their government or with the acquiescence of their government, if they return to their home country. But even then, they are not allowed to remain in the United States or fight any relief in the United States. That just means that they will be deported to a third country.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

For people inside the usa, the situation wasn't much better. First as a trickle and then as a torrent, we started to see videos of masked unidentified men jumping out of unmarked vehicles to grab people, many of whom were migrants, and detained them. In most cases, these were federal agents from ICE and other federal agencies like the FBI, the ATF, and the dea, whose offices were detailed to support ICE in an increasing number of cases. They were people imitating ICE for migrants, many of whom had fled totalitarian regimes where people were disappeared by the state. They were a reminder of what they'd run away from. The place they had come to be safe started to feel like the place they'd had to leave because it wasn't safe. In Primrose's case, things were a bit different. When Kirsten filed a motion to appear remotely, she got an extremely unusual response.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

In ruling on my webex motion, I was emailed the order of the judge along with a notice that Primrose should self deport. So judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders. In cases where the immigrant has counsel is fighting their case, it's obvious they're fighting their case.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

So it's one of the things where you just feel very strongly this administration's influence.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Are they obliged to do that or is that a choice that the judges make?

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

No, not at all. It's, it's okay. Not at all. And in fact, it's completely inappropriate. The immigration bar is taking a different approach to it. Some are filing motions to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need to recuse yourself. You're, you're a non neutral judge to send this out in the middle of the case. It's absurd. It's a due process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge suggest.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

One of the many areas where things are not as they have been. The Trump administration has flouted rules and even court orders and sent migrants to El Salvador's megaprision Secot, a place where torture is routine and where few people have ever left. They attempted to bring criminal charges against migrants to justify their actions and eventually ended up in a prisoner change with the Maduro regime. At the same time, Maduro's government began offering, quote, unquote, humanitarian flights to Venezuelans in Mexico. And some even took to navigating the Darien Gap southwards to return to Colombia, where they thought they might have some chance at a decent life in the usa, a country with more guns than people. Everyone seemed to be holding their breath and worrying that we'd see an increase in lethal violence. But after a few weeks, thankfully, that hadn't happened. But more and more where ICE agents showed up, local people also showed up. They called them all number of things, fascists, cowards, traitors. And then people began to organize, following ICE agents around and announcing their presence, identifying their hotels and making noise outside, picking up neighbors, kids and getting their groceries. So people wouldn't need to expose themselves to the risk of arrest if ICE agents were spotted, people alerted their communities. In cities across the U.S. people began to form networks to take care of their neighbors. Some of this came from lifelong activists, but much of it did not. People even began using apps normally used for suburban racism like Nextdoor and Ring to call out the presence of ice. Raids were opposed and ICE agents were shouted at across the country. But they still kept going. It wasn't until June that we saw the first mass protest. Everyone wondered if we'd be in for another hot summer like 2020. CBP officers had been deployed to LA to conduct a series of loud and once again curated for Instagram raids. Border Patrol's El Centro sector chief Patrol Agent Gregory Bovino, became the face of the operation even before Trump had taken office. Just a day after Congress had certified the results of the election, Bovino had sent 65 agents six hours north of the border to push the boundaries of what people would accept. In California's Central Valley, not so far from Los Gatos Canyon, he led Operation Return to Sender, accosting Latino farm workers at convenience stores and on the way to work. Bavino claimed the operation was targeted, but reporting from Calmatters showed CBP had no prior records for 77 of the 78 people it arrested. Bovino, who has bestowed the title of Premier Sector on the part of the border he oversees, has five agents on a team dedicated to producing videos. He likes to praise Eisenhower, whose operation often flew migrants to El Centro before they were Sent back to Mexico. The plane which crashed in Los Gatos Canyon was headed there. Bovino has a long history of these raids, dating back to at least 2010 in Las Vegas. And he is very much the face of the new Border Patrol approach. While ICE numbers are growing, CBP still has several times more offices. And indeed, some reporting suggests that ICE officers and some offices might be replaced with CBP personnel. Border Patrol notionally operates within 100 miles of the border, an area which includes all US coastline and the entire shore of the Great Lakes. And even then, this hundred miles is an interpretation and not a hard legal block. This remit covers two thirds of the population, gives them a wide leeway to infringe on the Fourth Amendment. This has been the case for decades, since the Department of Homeland Security was founded after 9 11. But mass protests against CBP has been rare. We've seen it on occasion, but less than you'd think for an agency with such a broad remit in a country that seems so proud of the first 10amendments to the Constitution. In LA, though, people weren't having it. Following a series of violent raids, Border Patrol agents had been met with protest across the city. They'd responded with tear gas, projectile weapons and threats. They'd arrested Dennis Huerta, leader of the Service Employees United International, one of the largest unions in the country, as well as dozens of other Angelenos. They'd shot tear gas out of moving vehicles and launched projectiles into the faces of reporters and bystanders alike. Seeing this, doing what I do, I got on a train to Los Angeles. But with it being Southern California, it took like five hours. Are they throwing or shooting? Did you get hit? You okay? I'm going to that tree on the right. Yeah. After getting off the train in LA and before, I met my friend Charles McBride to work on some coverage together, I walked around Alverda street, grabbed a coffee and spoke to some of the local folks. There were tags all over the walls and windows of the buildings around the train station. But that's always been how LA has expressed itself. All I heard from people I met there was support. One man expressed to me that his anxiety made protests very uncomfortable for him, but he was glad to see people standing up. Obviously, crimes against property are something that parts of Los Angeles take very seriously. It's a spiritual home of conspicuous consumption. But in this instance, it seemed everyone I've met either didn't care or was so mad they didn't care. From mid morning to early the next day, lapd, who are not supposed to Assist cbp, but who can enforce state law? Chased angry kids around their own city. In skid row in downtown la, tear gas flooded the streets and so did young people from across town. In between the tear gas and pepperballs, I managed to talk to a few of them. Their stories were similar. They were those kids whose better futures had brought their parents here. They were citizens raised in the USA to believe in the right to free speech and assembly, something they were now using to make their voices heard. I mean, my family, they're, you know, susceptible to all the ICE raids and stuff like that. And, you know, being a citizen here, I feel like it's my duty to come out here and, you know, speak.

[Primrose]

Out, you know, for those who can.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It made me think of Primrose and Kimberly and the future they might both have. I sincerely hope that one day Kimberly and every other kid I met in the jungle would feel brave enough to be out here and despite everything, be strong enough to stand up against state violence. Unbeknownst to me, Primrose and Kim weren't that far away. They had a check in with ICE at the DTLA Federal Building that day. And as they rode by in a bus past the protesting crowds, Kim said to her mum, look, it's Uncle James. Her mom, of course, told her it couldn't have been. But she was right. It was. After nine months of only speaking on the phone, Kimberly somehow recognized me. This might be being wrapped up in a helmet and a plate carrier.

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[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Have you ever listened to those true crime shows and found yourself with more questions than answers? And what is this? How is that not a story we all know?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

What?

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

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[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

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[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Boy, do we have a show for you. From Smartless Media, Campside Media and big Money Players comes Crimeless. Join me Josh Dean, investigative journalist, and me, Rory Scovel, comedian. As we celebrate the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals, we'll look into some of the silliest ways folks have broken the laws. Honestly, it feels more like a high level prank than a crime. Who catfishes a city and meets some memorable antiheroes? There are thousands of angry, horny monkeys. Clap if you think she's a witch and it freaks you out. He has X ray vision. How could I not follow him? Honestly, I gotta follow him. He can see right through me. Listen to crimeless on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. May 24, 1990. A pipe bomb explodes in the front seat of environmental activist Judi Berry's car.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it rip through me with just a force more powerful and terrible than anything that I could describe.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry and why. She received death threats before the bombing. She received more stress after the bombing.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The men and women who were hurt had planned to lead a summer of militant protest against logging practices in Northern California.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

They were climbing trees and they were.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

The timber industry, I mean, it was the number one industry in the area. But more than it was the culture.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

It was the way of life.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

I think that this is a deliberate.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

Attempt to sabotage our movement.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

When they first arrived, they went to stay with someone they knew in Texas. I planned to go and visit them there and accompany them to their court hearing. At this point, ICE agents had already begun snatching people in the corridors of courthouses after the government withdrew their cases and placed them in expedited removal proceedings, which meant mandatory detention. There's not much any of us can do about this, but I didn't want them to be alone. Then I got Covid and couldn't go. Here's Kirsten explaining how this process works.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

So ina section235 applies to people who entered within less than two years. Like you said, they can be then subject to what's called expedited removal. That means that they have to take a credible fear interview and be detained and that they only get to fight a case if they pass their credible fear interview. They do not qualify for an immigration judge bond. So they only get out if ICE lets them out, which of course ICE is letting nobody out. So the, the administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this 235 authority, as much as possible to have them have to fight their case detained and either lose the will to do so and or not be able to afford an attorney because detained cases move along a lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason. So what they're doing is anybody who was here two years or less but was paroled in. So they're in the regular immigration court proceedings. They got out there under 240 proceedings, it's called. So DHS attorneys in court are terminating those proceedings. They are asking the judge to terminate the 240 proceedings. So then that case is closed and then they immediately restart a case under section 235.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That hearing went relatively smoothly. Their lawyer, who is now working for whatever primrose could fundraise, was able to help them make their case. They left with another hearing scheduled soon after they decided to move to LA to stay with another friend after the housing situation in Texas fell through. They were living in East LA when they had their next ICE check in.

[Primrose]

Yeah, I was living appointment.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

And you said they went back to get some documents and they made you wait for hours?

[Primrose]

Yeah, I went there I think around a half 8 to 4pm at first they came and Give me my papers. They said go to chat with which is close to where you stay. Then to come here in la, downtown. So when I walk away I realized there was no other documents. Then I woke, I go back, I said to Kim, let's go back inside. Then I go to the reception. Then I asked the lady and she was rude to it first. Then she took my documents then said oh okay, let me go and find it. 3 hours, 4 hours not coming back. Then she came and called me I think 4pm Then the ICE officer is just telling me I'm going to detain you. I said oh why? Said we are going to expand, explain more where you're going. I said oh, okay.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Like thousands of other migrants who are trying to do as they're asked. Primrose was detained at her check in along with Kim. Previously she'd been given ice check ins in Riverside. Despite living in East LA, I'd helped her navigate the 4 1/2 hour bus route to get there on time. Wondered how on earth someone who doesn't have a friend here or who doesn't speak English is expected to do this. She went out of her way to make sure she was there and she had her documents in order despite all of this. But she and Kimberly were detained anyway. It's not hard for me to see why people in LA were mad.

[Primrose]

Then they took me to Santana. We were just sitting. Not even one ICE officer come talk to me. Nothing. I was just sitting. And the other thing, they just took my phone same time they said switch it off. Then I said can I I tell even one of my friends, maybe they, they are worried now. Said no, no, we are going to give you a phone later on. I said okay. So in Santana they took us in a hotel to sleep. Then the following day they took back us to Sandana Detention Center. Not even one officer I was being asking the security, they said we don't even know. We spent the whole day sitting doing nothing. We were just sitting. Then they took us I think around 6pm back to Los Angeles. Then when that's where I saw the ICE officer. Then she explained to me we are going to detain you, are going to put you somewhere because the rules are changing every day. I even asked her did I do something. She said no.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

I've heard this from a lot of migrants. The ICE agents managing their non detained docket as opposed to those in enforcement, removal or detention, seem to be struggling to keep up with the pace of the changes in rules. Many of the migrants I'd heard From had decent relationships with the officers who do their check ins and they can't understand why other officers working for the same organization would detain them even though they're doing exactly what they're asked to do. They are doing things quote unquote the right way. But that's not enough for an agency desperately driven by quotas and the desire to purge a nation of people who had risked their lives to become Americans. Let's hear how this felt for Primrose.

[Primrose]

Then she said do you have a lawyer? I said yes. Then she said okay, it's fine. So she gave me another document to sign. Then I signed like they are going to detain me. Then I asked here for how long? She said I don't think you guys where you're going, I'm going to stay more than 14 days, maybe less than 14 days. I said okay. Then I asked a phone to call a lawyer. She gave me a phone. Then I contact the lawyer. The layer the phone was off. Then I tried to contact one of my friends. Then he answer. I said yo, we wanted to go to the police to ask because we were worried because your phone was off. And the ICE officer, the ICE officer, they both was having a GPS so my GPS was off. So they were phoning the person who helped me in Texas looking for me. Then he also replied I'm also looking for you. I don't even know where she is. So people, they were worried maybe I'll someone kidnape you. Something happened to me. Yeah, yeah.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

So another ICE officer is also looking for you?

[Primrose]

Yeah, the other officer were looking for me. They were even sending messages on their app. Yeah, yeah, asking where are you charge your gps. And the other ICE officer was detaining me. Then I even explained to her, she said oh no, no it's okay. Then she took the scissors. Then she cut the gps. She cut it off. Then we spent I think one hour. It was around seven. Then they said okay, oh there's someone is coming to take you and your daughter so to take you somewhere which is safe with your child. I asked where those people? They said we don't know. We don't know. I said oh, okay. Then they searched me. They said do you want to take your bag? They said no, no it's fine. I can ask even someone because I know I was having house key for.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The apartment Primrose, like many people seeking asylum had to wear a GPS ankle tag. Part of ICE's Alternatives to Detention program. There are various parts of the program including facial recognition check ins via a smartphone app, Home Visits and the Intensive Supervision Parent Program, which is administered by behavioral interventions, a GeoGroup subsidiary. ISAP, as it's known, includes an app through which people can check in, as well as the GPS monitors and smartwatches which can monitor GPS and do facial recognition. Very obviously they're not being used in a systematic way. As one branch of ICE was detaining Primrose while another was using a GPS tag to try and find her. All of the GPS devices used as alternatives to detention represent massive surveillance overreach, an invasion of privacy and a huge government dragnet of data they can use to track down migrants and the people they're with. Despite this, they're also better than detention, which is where Primrose ended up, but not directly.

[Primrose]

I thought maybe they're going to deport me, I can't go with the keys. Then they took my bag, said, okay, we are going to put somewhere. After one hour they took us to LAX airport. They put us in a hotel. It was around 12, yeah, 12pm that time. And they said, okay, fine, you can have a shower, then you can have a nap. So Mia was in the shower and Kimberly was already on the bed sleeping. Then the lady came and knocked, said, oh, make fast. We are going to, we want to go back to pick another person where we came from. Ah. Then I wake, I, I wake him. I was talking about, she was crying, she was like, I want to sleep because she was having headache. Then they said, no, no, no, it's okay, let's go, you're going to sleep. Where we are going, we spend the whole night up and down. We came back again to LA downtown to pick another guy with a, with his son. Then they took us to San Diego airport. I think we arrived, I think it's 5am to take the flight to San Antonio, Texas. Then after that, and the other lady, she was rude. The other one, she was nice, she was fine. The other one, if you ask her, she was like, she was rude. Then I just keep quiet. Then I think at the airport we spent three hours sitting. Then we catch our flight, 8am to San Antonio. Yeah, they took us to delay immigration. They welcome us. Nice, everything. Yeah. Then they put us inside. But for me, I was, I was crying, to be honest. Yeah, I was even crying like, you know, the only person make me strong is Kim and it's worse for her. Like since last year, since last year, your life is something else. I'm just moving from one place to another, Moving from one place to another, you know, she's a strong girl, but sometimes you can see when you see her sitting down, starting crying, she will just remind you something. Yeah. So. Yeah.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The Flores settlement governs detention of children by immigration authorities. It limits the time they can be held to 20 days and establishes minimum standards for their detention and treatment. It was a lawsuit based on this Flores settlement that eventually ended the Biden era policy of outdoor detention. The settlement is widely flouted, but it was the best hope Primrose and Kimberly had. Kirsten, their lawyer, who we heard from earlier, worked tirelessly to demand they be treated according to their rights. How was it you called me a few times in Delhi? Right. Like how Kim wasn't having a good time at first.

[Primrose]

First week. It was hard even for both of us. Yeah, yeah. Even the food. Me, I wasn't even it it first. It was very hard for both of us. But you know, kids. She was like, used it to.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Primrose called me a few times from detention. I pick up the phone to a robot voice and the number would identify itself on my phone as federal detention or something like that. At first, obviously I was afraid, but I had an idea of what it could be. Yet another connection that began with a little piece of waterproof paper in the jungle and was now nine months later, leading to a phone call from a prison for families in Texas. I'd pick up the phone and then I'd have to press 1 or 2 to accept the call. I always wondered what I was about to hear. I could tell she was trying to put on a brave face, but she sounded so small, it was difficult, really hard to hear. She said Kim wasn't eating the food, which I've often heard is terrible. I spent hours trying to find out how to put money on their commissary account so she could get something a little better. Kirsten fought on and on to try and get them released. I remember at one point hearing from Primrose, locked up with her daughter for the crime of asking this country for help on the 4th of July. It would be too cliche if I made that up. But nothing this year really seems believable. Even in ICE detention, which is a miserable place for anyone. Primrose and Kim had an especially hard time as most of the migrants they were detained with spoke Spanish in the worst.

[Primrose]

The other thing is, like those people, they were especially the room, they put me, all of them, they were Spanish. And me, I don't even understand in Spanish. I even asked the ICE officer, can you please? Maybe because there's another lady Also two ladies, I think Africans. We were only four families. So we even asked them, can you put us in one room so that we can understand each other? Even. Especially for the tv, you know, kids, they refuse. So sometimes I even hear the report. One of the lead, she was very rude to us. She came and speak something. So me and Kim, we don't even understand like what she said. So I just saw people, they're doing something. Then later, when she was like, hey, I came here and I said this and that. Hey, when you came here, you just speak Spanish. You didn't even explain with English. And of which me, I don't understand English. So she just write a. A report to a boss. So your boss came and called me. Then I explained to her. Then she was like, oh, okay. Then they called here. She wanted to say, no, no, no. I even explained to English. Then there's another woman inside my room. Then she spoke with Spanish. I didn't even hear. But she was telling the officer, no, no, no, this woman, she's lying. She just came and speak Spanish here, not English. So these people, they were just sleeping. They didn't even know what to do because she just only spoke Spanish only.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

I've heard this from lots of migrants. They end up serving as translators for each other because the agency that is funded better than most countries, militaries seemingly won't provide them. Often people who speak indigenous languages have to find a translator into Spanish or Russian or whatever other language they have a colonial relationship with. Other times, there's just nobody to help them, and they're even more alone than afraid.

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[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Have you ever listened to those true crime shows and found yourself with more questions than answers? And what is this? How is that not a story we all know?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

What?

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

What's this? Why is it wet? Boy, do we have a show for you. From Smartless Media, Campside Media and big Money Players comes Crimeless. Join me, Josh Dean, investigative journalist, and me, Rory Scovel, comedian. As we celebrate the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals, we'll look into some of the silliest ways folks have broken the laws. Honestly, it feels more like a high level prank than a crime. Who catfishes a city and meets some memorable antiheroes? There are thousands of angry, horny monkeys. Clap if you think she's a witch and it freaks you out. He has X ray vision. How could I not follow him? Honestly, I gotta follow him. He can see right through me. Listen to crimeless on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. May 24, 1990. A pipe bomb explodes in the front seat of environmental activist Judy Berry's car.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it rip through me with just a force more powerful and terrible than anything that I could describe.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry and why she received death threats before the bombing. She received more stress after the bombing.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The men and women who were hurt had planned to lead a summer of militant protest against logging practices in Northern California.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

They were climbing Trees.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

And they were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

The timber industry, I mean, it was the number one industry in the area. But more than it was the culture, it was the way of life.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

I think that this is a deliberate.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

Attempt to sabotage our movement.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Episodes of Rich Rip Current Season 2 are available now listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Luckily, Primrose wasn't alone. She had Kim with her. And as they always do, they looked out for each other. These aren't things a child should have to do, certainly not a child as young as Kimberly. But in the end, it was Kimberly who could help work out what was going on.

[Primrose]

Then the ICE officer, I started crying, like. Then they took me to psychologist. Then they said, ah, no, it's okay. I think I even spent three days that side. They removed me in the room. Then they put me back. So Kimberly was learning, understanding Spanish. So sometimes you yobing me, oh, mommy. They said this and that. They said this and that. I even write a note to complain, like, when these people came, then we have to accommodate all of us because it's not like, oh, we are all Spanish.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Primrose]

And we don't understand Spanish.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Along with being overcrowded and underfed, migrants at ICE facilities are often incredibly bored. I've heard of some of them trying to teach yoga or share stories, but for the most part, they're so afraid and isolated that they are forced to sit with their anxieties day after day. I can't imagine what this is like for parents who have to try and maintain their own mental health and take care of their children.

[Primrose]

But to be honest, we were just sitting. So time goes. Oh, yeah. Because I remember one day we went to play. We went to the gym to play, I think soccer with Kim. I just fell down. I just fell down. They took me to hospital. I think I spent, I think, three hours. Then I wake up. Yeah, yeah. Because I think it's depression.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Primrose]

So they put me in depression pills till I get it out. Yeah. Because my BPU was high. Every time. Each and every time. Each and every day. Yeah. But I. I asked my ICE officer about my case. Then she just replied me, I'm just waiting for ICE to close your case, then we can start for asylum. So I was just sitting doing nothing.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Despite what the detention was doing to her, Primrose remained determined to keep fighting her case. Every Thursday, an ICE officer would come by and she would be able to ask about her case. She'd been looking forward to the only point in her week when she might get some good news, or at least some news about what was happening to her and why. Sadly, that's not how it went.

[Primrose]

Yeah, there was ICE officer was very rude, to be honest. Everyone just walk away without. And people, they were crying, complaining. Then it was like I went to him, straight to him, I wanted to ask him a question. He said, nay, I don't have time. The only thing I can even tell you guys, if you are tired staying here, you can. Because they were putting papers for self deportation in our rooms. Like if you want to deport it, you can, anytime. You can just sign. You put your A number, your phone, phone number, everything. Then they can make you ticket here.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

In her lowest moments, Primrose said she felt like giving up. Maybe it all wasn't worth it. She thought she would do anything to get away from the hell at the detention center. That's the goal of these places, to break people. But Kimberly reminded her what they'd come all this way for.

[Primrose]

Because when I was in detention, there's a time I was like, ah, I'm going to sign a deportation form. Oh, he's cream. She said, no, people, they are going to kill you. If you want to go back, oh, it's fine. It's up to you. If you want to go die, go. Not me. Sign your paper. Not my paper, you must sign yours. Then you can go. Don't sign my name. No, I would rather stay here because I know people. Because there's a lot of people happening in here. I especially in my country also. So she still remember everything.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The depression, hunger, boredom and misery that characterizes ice. Detention is not a bug, it's a feature. It's supposed to force people into breaking, into signing those papers, into getting sent back to whenever they came here to escape. However, the tenacity that brought Primrose's fire hadn't left her. And she made sure to let them know she was not willingly going back.

[Primrose]

Then I said, no, me, I'm not going anywhere cause my life is in danger. Then he said, I don't care. Even if they kill you, I don't even care. You have to take a form and sign if you are tired. Then I said, okay, at least tell me my case. Because when they catch me was like, everyone was asking me, where did they catch you? I explained the other officer was like, so who detained you? I said, I don't even know the name. But that ICE officer, he was very rude, said, I don't care. Do you think I Care. I don't even care whether you go back to your country, whether they killed you. It's none of my business. I have my family. I have a lot. Oh. So people, people, they were, they were like, shouted him. Those Spanish, they were even crying, shouted him. He just walk away and leave us. So people just also starting walk away, go around. We even write a note, we put like a complaint. But no one even come and help us until the day they just come and call me. They are going to release me.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Kirsten had spent weeks calling, emailing and demanding that Primrose and Kimberly be treated according to their rights under the Florida settlement. I wasn't sure if it was a lost cause, but it was the only option we had. And I was happy that Kimberly, unlike so many others in that detention centre, had someone to fight for her. In fact, she had hundreds of people. People all across the country had donated to our legal aid fund here in San Diego. People put on shows and took collections to pay for her legal fees. Listeners to this show dipped into their pockets to support Primrose and Kimberly. Thanks to them, she had a chance to get out. Like many other legal rights that migrants have, Flores was being widely ignored and it's likely the Trump admin will take a run at removing it altogether soon. But for now, in this one case, it still applied. But even once ICE conceded that Primrose and Kimberly had a right to be freed, they still took their time doing it.

[Primrose]

They released me on the 10th.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Yeah, I remember. You called me just on the phone.

[Primrose]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I called you. Yeah, exactly.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You thought you were going to get out that week. But they took longer and longer.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

The release felt like a victory, but she still faced the same difficulties she had before Primrose could not legally work. She was still in la, where Border Patrol under Bavino were conducting violent raids on people accused of no crime other than crossing the border between ports of entry. And because it was the summer, Kimberly still hadn't resumed her education. So that was July. Like we're in August now.

[Primrose]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You said your work permit still hasn't come, right?

[Primrose]

Yeah, they clear everything. I was supposed to get my work permit on this July, but they clear everything. Like I'm new everything. They just clear everything. So starting August. Yeah.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It'S November now and there's still no permit. Here's Kirsten explaining in May of this year how this system works.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

You have a work permit clock. Right. Which is another absurd thing for Asylees that once they file their asylum application, they have to wait 150 days before they can apply for a work permit. And of course, they're expected to be independently wealthy during those five months or, you know, or star over. I don't know what they're expected to do.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Yeah. Rely on the generosity of others, like.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

Exactly. So if you do something like try to change venue or a motion to continue, if you. If you do something in your case that the judge perceives as not moving the case along and rather like kind of trying to stall it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the judge will stop the work permit, clock the days, and it's a whole thing. So Primroses was stopped because the judge wanted her to get an attorney. So then usually when the case is set for a final hearing, that code, adjournment code they call it, we have the access to the codes and what stops the clock and what doesn't. And it always restarts the clock. Because you moved your case along, because you're setting it for trial, it's obviously moving your case along. Hers was not restarted.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

That video is still on Primrose's mind as well. It still comes up when she goes to a new church or meets new people. Even 11 months later, one of the worst days of her life still follows her.

[Primrose]

And the person who posted me on my video, please. I don't know how to say, but the comments I was reading, it was really bad. And people, they just judge people without even know their status, where they came from. Yeah. I can't control them. But deep down I'm not okay. And you see, even now I'm struggling for my knee. Yeah. And the other people, they will laugh at me like, yeah, but it's not funny. And I wish if the person, maybe she was supposed to cover my face or to cover Kimberly's face. Yeah, great.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

But I didn't want their time in LA to entirely be defined by their detention. I didn't want them to think that everyone in this country doesn't want them here. I never really expect the government to make people feel welcome here. I think that's something we should do. These people are joining our communities. They risk their lives to come and live here with us. And it's us who should welcome them. We can't leave that to the whims of the Electoral College. We have to do it ourselves, just like the people in Bajo Chiquito did. So I drove up to la. Primrose and Kim had another ICE appointment and I arranged to meet them after I freaked out a little bit when I couldn't get through to them. But eventually I did. The big ice building has no signal inside. It turns out their place in LA is where I conducted the interview. You heard I took them out for a manicure first because it seemed like something that would make them feel taken care of, and I got Kim some bubble seed because she wanted to try it. Sitting in the little manicure shop watching a Vietnamese lady take great care over their nails felt like another glimpse of the communities we aspire to build, where people from all over the world can come and be safe. By this time I hadn't heard from Norway for months and I'd started to realize I might not ever again. So I decided I wasn't going to let Kimberly live so close to Disneyland and not go. One of my colleagues has family who worked there. We got Primrose and Kimberley day passes. It felt really nice just to give them a day to be a family and not to worry I didn't go with them and record. I wanted them to enjoy the day on their own and by all accounts they did. Primrose sent me pictures of them smiling outside various rides and exhibits, and I felt a little bit better to help make someone's American dream a little less of a nightmare. Tomorrow I want to talk more about welcoming people in our communities and taking care of them. Because now more than ever, I think that's what we have to do. It could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

Out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

Or wherever you listen to podcasts you.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

Can now find sources for.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

It could Happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

Thanks for listening.

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[Narrator/Interviewer]

I O You know what your customers.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Are doing right this second? The exact same thing. You are listening to me. Which, let's be honest, is kind of flattering. But my point Is ads on iHeartRadio actually get heard in the car, at the gym, on the couch, while people are walking their dogs who's a good boy. Who's a good boy?

[Narrator/Interviewer]

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[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

That's right, dude.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

You're a good.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

So why not make the next ad about you? Get started today. Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvertising.com that's 844-844-iheart or iheartadvertising.com I knew it was.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

A bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it rip through me.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry and why they were climbing trees and.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

They were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

She received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing.

[Narrator/Interviewer]

I think that this is a deliberate.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

Attempt to sabotage our movement.

[True Crime Podcast Host (Josh Dean or Rory Scovel)]

Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

The show was ahead of its time to represent a black family in ways.

[Primrose]

That television hadn't shown before.

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[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

Rachel, and I'm Kellie Williams or Laura Winslow. On our podcast, welcome to the Family with Telma and Kelly. We're rewatching every episode of Family Matters. We'll share behind the scenes stories about making the show.

[Trashy Ad Host]

Yeah, we'll even bring in some special.

[Lawyer (Kirsten Zitlau)]

Guests to spill some tea.

[Trashy Ad Host]

Listen to welcome to the Family with Telma and Kelly on the iHeartRadio app.

[Primrose]

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.

[Podcast Host (possibly Kellie Williams or Telma Hopkins)]

Guaranteed Human.