Did Donald Trump Ban Buffalo?

Summary

---

It Could Happen Here: “Did Donald Trump Ban Buffalo?” (May 19, 2026)

Hosts: James Stout & guest co-host Molly Conger

---

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode examines the recent Bureau of Land Management (BLM) decision to revoke public land grazing rights for privately owned bison (buffalo) in Montana, exploring the ecological, political, and historical implications. The hosts discuss the intertwined fate of bison, indigenous culture, and American land management, critically analyzing the Trump administration’s shifting of public lands policy—from conservation and restoration toward increased productivity measured by profit and corporate interest. Along the way, they highlight the complexities of terminology, legal interpretations, and public narratives around buffalo, with an eye toward the future of American prairies.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Symbolism and Status of Buffalo in America

• Buffalo as American Icon:
  • Buffalo are deeply linked to the American imagination of the pre-colonial Great Plains, symbolizing abundance and lost ecological harmony.
    “I think buffalo are the fauna that people particularly imagine being present.” (James, 03:04)
• Personal Experiences:
  • James recounts experiences with wild buffalo and how their presence evokes a sense of connection with the landscape.
    “It felt like you were almost one of the buffalo, you know, you're like in the herd traversing the plains.” (James, 05:29)
• Buffalo Genocide:
  • The near extinction of buffalo is linked not just to environmental destruction but to the concurrent genocide of indigenous cultures. “Often this period of genocidal violence is referred to as the buffalo genocide... not just the destruction of the buffalo population but also of the indigenous cultures that relied on that buffalo population.” (James, 06:04)

---

Ecological Cascades & the Lost Grasslands

• Role of Buffalo in Ecology:
  • Buffalo are “landscape engineers,” maintaining grasslands through their grazing, trampling, and migratory behaviors. Their loss led to dramatic ecological collapse. “Just walking around on it and eating it is part of the maintenance of that grassland... we need them walking around and shitting on it.” (Molly, 14:36, 14:51)
• Black-footed Ferrets and Prairie Dogs:
  • Discussion of other lost or threatened species (like black-footed ferrets) illustrates how the collapse of buffalo habitats affected broader ecosystems.
    “The reason that these guys struggle to get back on the landscape is because they need massive prairie dog towns to feed off.” (James, 07:47)

---

The Bison/Buffalo Naming Debate

• Terminology and Cultural Context:
  • Short (humorous) debate over whether the American animals should be called buffalo or bison; James argues for embracing the historical and linguistic quirks over scientific purity. “English speaking people have been calling these animals buffalo since English speaking people came to this continent.” (James, 09:59)
  • The word “buffalo” can serve as noun, verb, and proper noun—leading to the famous “Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo” grammatical puzzle.
    “It's buffalo the proper noun. Buffalo the noun. Buffalo the verb.” (James, 12:06)

---

The Controversy: BLM Cancels Bison Grazing Leases

• Background of the Ban:
  • The BLM recently canceled grazing rights for privately owned bison on seven public land allotments in Phillips County, Montana. This reversed policies that allowed conservation-focused bison herds. “The Bureau of Land Management has canceled grazing rights in seven allotments of public land in Phillips County, Montana, for privately owned bison.” (James, 12:56)
• Media & Political Reaction:
  • Overheated online commentary blames Trump and associates the decision with anti-conservation sentiment and the influence of blue wave “Twitter panic accounts.”
• Who’s Impacted:
  • The main group affected is “American Prairie” (former American Prairie Reserve), an NGO trying to rebuild a large, semi-wild prairie ecosystem through land acquisition and bison reintroduction. “American Prairie has tried for about a quarter of a century to buy up private land adjacent to public land around Charles M. Russell National Wildlife Refuge and the Upper Missouri River Breaks National Monument.” (James, 16:32)

---

What’s Really at Stake: Ecological Restoration, Not Cattle Ranching

• Public Land Leasing Explained:
  • Both cattle and bison ranchers have historically leased public land for grazing through a checkerboard of public/private ownership. Bison have grazed public land for 40 years, and this is common out West. “There have been bison on public land for 40 years. There remain bison on public land across the West.” (James, 39:59)
• “Productive Use” as a Weaponized Legal Standard:
  • The new justification for ending bison leases is that only “productive” use (implicitly profit-driven cattle ranching) counts for public land—sidestepping conservation, ecological, and tribal restoration goals. “The BLM is trying to regulate these leases to quote, unquote, productive purposes... It doesn't say productive purposes anywhere I can find in the Taylor Grazing Act.” (James, 41:04)
  • Key criticism: this definition is circular, vague, and selectively invoked to block restoration or tribal projects. “Productive use is a standard they have derived from the term domestic livestock in the Taylor Grazing Act.” (James, 58:07)
• Disparate Impact on Indigenous and Conservation Efforts:
  • This rule particularly threatens tribal herds and ecological restoration—tribes have objected, calling it a continuation of “affirmative action for cattle.” “It is offensive and unacceptable that the federal government would still seek to keep buffalo off of these lands... They also called it affirmative action for cattle, which was kind of funny. True.” (James quoting tribal leader, 51:21)

---

Broader Context: Privatization, Tax Loopholes & The APR NGO

• APR—Good, Bad, or Both?
  • American Prairie is described as a flawed but well-intentioned “private national park”. Criticisms include claims of tax avoidance for donors (e.g., the Mars family), but the hosts argue the real driver is land restoration—not financial chicanery. “It’s very sweet if you think that… the way they are avoiding paying federal taxes is buying land to put buffalo on.” (James, 38:33)
• Cattle Industry Resistance:
  • Signs like “Save the Cowboys, Stop the American Prairie Reserve” reflect rancher pushback, although APR runs far more cattle than bison on its lands.

---

The Deeper Story: Public Land, Land Back, & Perilous Precedent

• Restoring Land vs. Returning It:
  • A critical distinction is made between putting buffalo (privately owned or managed by NGOs) back on prairies and true land repatriation to indigenous stewards. “Privately owned bison being on the APR is not land back.” (James, 55:49)
• Genocidal and Capitalist Legacies:
  • The episode underscores how federal and capitalist efforts worked hand-in-hand historically to destroy both bison and indigenous sovereignty. “As much as the government did, the capitalism that the government was bringing with it killed the majority of wild buffalo.” (James, 53:06)
• What’s at Risk Now:
  • Revoking conservation leases and redefining “use” sets a precedent for wider anti-conservation, pro-exploitation land policies—shrinking the already minimal space for ecological restoration or indigenous resurgence.
  • BLM is jokingly called “Bureau of Livestock and Mining,” warning that such decisions further tilt public lands toward private, extractive exploitation. “This is the Bureau of Land Exploitation.” (Molly, 60:25)

---

Notable Moments & Quotes

• The Productivity Trap:
  “In order to use this land that is supposed to be for, you know, public preservation, you have to be as exploitative and destructive as possible.” (Molly, 59:45)
• Land Management Satire:
  “Elk also carry brucellosis. So if we're concerned about brucellosis, we also need to be concerned about elk. But it… doesn’t get brought up in the elk discussion. It gets brought up in the buffalo discussion.” (James, 24:01)
• The Damaging Shift:
  “They have now rescinded that rule [the conservation and landscape health rule]. So I guess our way of life is now under threat.” (James, 45:42)
• On Land and Sovereignty:
  “We should just briefly say that there is no such thing as government land. Right. It's all native land. And the land which is currently managed by the government is paid for by me and Molly and everyone else. Doug Burgum doesn't own it. It is there for future generations.” (James, 44:01)
• On Symbiosis vs. Extinction:
  “Part of the natural relationship with them is sometimes eating them... I guess we just… in the western mind, we can only hunt something to extinction. We can't contemplate a symbiotic coexistence where we eat them sometimes but we don't want them all to be dead.” (Molly, 57:06, 57:22)

---

Timestamps — Important Segments

• Buffalo’s Place in American Myth & Ecology — 03:04 to 07:43
• Naming Conventions (Bison vs. Buffalo) — 09:45 to 12:51
• BLM Cancels Grazing Rights: The Case — 12:56 to 16:08
• APR’s Ecological Aims & Political Criticisms — 16:25 to 17:09
• Public Land Grazing in Practice — 39:46 to 41:04
• Legal Rationale: Productive Use/“Domestic Livestock” — 41:04 to 42:32, 58:07 to 59:00
• Pushback from Tribes & Ecological Stakeholders — 51:00 to 51:57
• Buffalo Genocide & Legacy — 53:15 to 55:49
• The Broader Policy Shift in Land Management — 59:10 to 60:56
• Final Reflections on the Trend, Warnings for the Future — 61:06 to 63:45

---

Tone & Style

The discussion is both irreverent and deeply informed—mixing humorous asides, personal anecdotes, and sharp policy critique. The hosts demystify technical legal concepts and gently rib each other's gaps in animal knowledge, ensuring listeners stay engaged while grasping the stakes of bureaucratic changes.

---

Summary in Short

This episode uses the controversy over canceled bison grazing leases to illuminate a broader pattern: the Trump administration’s pivot from conservation to strict economic productivity on American public lands—a shift with dire implications for ecological restoration, indigenous sovereignty, and the possibility of recoverable prairie and bison populations. The hosts urge awareness, skepticism toward misleading narratives, and solidarity with indigenous and ecological efforts, while closing with reminders: don’t approach buffalo, respect wild animals, and watch for subtle policy changes threatening our remaining “commons.”

---

Memorable Quote to End:
“There are attack vectors that I just had not considered. This is a new and exciting way that they're making shit worse.”
—James, 63:49

---

Transcript

[James]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Mikey Day]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy. Not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. The worst singer in the group.

[Advertisement Voice]

The worst.

[James]

Yeah, me.

[Mikey Day]

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation to the group? To the group?

[James]

The Yardbirds. Right? That's the name.

[Mikey Day]

The Harvard Yardbirds. They're open.

[James]

Do you have a name suggestion? We're open.

[Mikey Day]

Since you guys are middle aged, one erection, listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast humor.

[James]

I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

[Ashanti Plummer]

Hey, it's Ashanti Plummer from Fudd around and find out. This week Az Fudd and I sat down with Steph and Curry. Steph talks pressure, confidence and what it really takes to stay great.

[Basketball Player (Steph Curry's guest)]

There's different categories I guess on like conditioning shooting drills where you try to simulate kind of gains. Look at her face. We have a love hate relationship with those. Cause you know you're getting something out of it. You don't look forward to those days.

[Ashanti Plummer]

Listen to Fut around and find out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Podcast Host (Psychology of Your Twenties)]

Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing and honestly just kind of lonely. May is mental health awareness month and the psychology of your twenties is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

I was six years into my career, the 80 hour weeks and just the

[Molly Conger]

first one in, the last one out and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my twenties that I like was just so

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

wanting to like be out of that

[Molly Conger]

phase out of my skin.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

And I just like really regret not

[Molly Conger]

living in the present more.

[Podcast Host (Psychology of Your Twenties)]

You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[James]

Here's something that should not be as

[Molly Conger]

complicated as it is getting a racist statue removed.

[James]

And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is getting

[Podcast Host (Psychology of Your Twenties)]

a new one put up in its place.

[James]

I'm Akilah Hughes, and Rebel Spirit Season

[Molly Conger]

2 is about both of those things.

[James]

As I was watching these statues come down, I was thinking about what it meant that I grew up in a majority black city in which there were more homages to enslavers than there were to enslaved people. Listen to Rebel Spirit Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Call Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here. Very special episode today because I am lucky enough to be joined by Molly Conger. Hi, Mol.

[Molly Conger]

Hi, James. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to hear about today's topic.

[James]

Yeah, today's topic is buffalo. If you. If this just came up on your phone without you clicking it, so I guess, look, buffalo. When people imagine the Great Plains before European colonization, I think buffalo are the fauna that they particularly imagine being present. Right.

[Molly Conger]

It's such a romantic image. Right. And they're gone now, but they were once so many. Like, every time we drive through southwest Virginia, I'm in central Virginia. So when we drive through southwestern Virginia, my husband always brings up this account that he read of someone witnessing the buffalo stampeding through the Cumberland Gap. Like, where?

[James]

Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

Right down to the tip of southwestern Virginia. And just looking at that place and imagining buffalo there, like, you have to romanticize it. That's incredible.

[James]

Yeah, they're sick. One of the coolest, like, American experiences I've ever had. Maybe seven or eight years ago now, I was bike packing and, like, the Colorado, Wyoming border up there, and I was with some friends. We've been like, maybe we're like, three or four days in, you know, like, where you kind of hit the sweet spot at that point when you, like, haven't showered for that long, and you're just kind of disconnected from the world. That's when it starts to be getting. Molly's making a face.

[Molly Conger]

The sweet spot. You can't see just four days of human stink. It really starts to get good.

[James]

Yeah, it's when it gets good because you're just like. That's how long it takes to disconnect. Right. So I'm looking at your phone and, like, worrying about not smelling good stuff.

[Molly Conger]

Becoming a beast of the outdoors.

[James]

Yeah, you just return to your feral self. I like to return to my feral self as often as possible. But we're, like, riding. I forget where we're going. At Walden, maybe we're coming off this big plateau, dropping into this big. Kind of, like, where it gets kind of more plain. Big Big kind of meadow plain. And we're coming down there and it's a few of us and these buffalo just come like from the side of us and they're running alongside us, right. And we're riding, going and we're cooking low game, maybe 20, 25 miles an hour, something like that. And these buffalo are just cruising next to us because they're just trying to get like, trying to check out like what are these weirdos doing? And they're just like, why the would you put all your stuff on a bicycle and go ride around like this? And then we're like, oh, it's buffalo. And like for like maybe a mile. They just kind of wanted to keep it seemed like they just wanted to keep tabs at us as we're going down this dirt road. And then like they were getting really close, right. So they're like kicking up all this dust and you got to feel like you were like almost one of the buffalo. You know, you're like in the herd traversing the plains.

[Molly Conger]

I think you're supposed to keep your distance from them, right?

[James]

Yeah. They went. We didn't have many options.

[Molly Conger]

Not a choice at that point.

[James]

Yeah. When they're like, do not approach. Yeah, they were approaching us. We didn't stop. I was like pretty, pretty keen on not stopping. And Molly is right, they look so

[Molly Conger]

pettable but you're, they're really not. They're really.

[James]

Despite their fluffy appearance, it's, it's advised like anytime in Yellowstone pretty much, especially in these summer months, you, you will find a video of a tourist approaching a buffalo and regretting that decision. They're pretty big. I've been gored by a bull before and I, I would like to like keep it to a one goring lifetime.

[Molly Conger]

For me, one is all most people get.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I was pretty. Let me tell you, I thought that one was all I was going to get. I was, I was ready to make my peace with. Luckily I got a second chance. Yeah, people kind of focus on a buffalo, right. They ignore many of the other species that we lost during this intense period of ecological destruction. Right. And I can see why. Really. You can find images of piles of dead buffalo skulls. There's that like really haunting image of the idea of killing animals only for their capes or their tongues. Often this period of genocidal violence is referred to as the buffalo genocide. And I think that encapsulates not just the destruction of the buffalo population, but also of the indigenous cultures that relied on that buffalo population. And of the ecology that went with it. Obviously when I say destruction, I'm not saying they're gone very much. Still here, still present, but the attempt by the government and capitalism to remove those people from that land. But yeah, it is a shame that these other animals don't get a. Don't get a fair shake. Have you ever seen a black footed ferret?

[Molly Conger]

I. When you said there was going to be something about ferrets, I was thinking about it and I realized all domesticated animals were wild animals. And it never occurred to me that a ferret could live outside.

[James]

Oh yeah, a ferret thrives in the outdoors. I really wanted to have ferrets when I was younger. Like I enjoyed the presence of ferrets, I enjoyed working with ferrets.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, he's kind of cute in a gross way.

[James]

Gross. The ferrets are very sweet. Yeah, we had, we had friend with ferrets growing up so we'd use them to. They use them to catch rabbits in the uk, right? Oh yeah. The reason that these guys struggle to get back on the landscape is because they need massive prairie dog towns to feed off.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, do they live in like societies? Do they live like a. Prairie dogs? So do ferrets live in like ferret villages?

[James]

The ferrets predate the prairie dogs.

[Molly Conger]

But do they live in like a village?

[James]

I don't know if they live in like a. I don't know what their social structure is. In Colorado there's a national black footed ferret center where you can go and see them. I've cycled past it, but I regret not going in. Maybe I'll make a special trip. Reach out if you're with the ferret people.

[Molly Conger]

Sorry I said he looks gross.

[James]

Yeah. Please don't cancel us because the prairie dog towns can collapse, right? Their populations can collapse pretty easily. They get like infectious diseases. So they need like a massive number of prairie dog towns in order to have a sustainable, genetically diverse ferret population.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, I get it, I get it.

[James]

And because we don't have those, right, because they are not generally amenable to agriculture and then the ecosystem is very different from what's naturally worse. That means. I don't know if there are any. There are. They're not extinct genetically, but ecologically in terms of their participation in the ecosystem. I don't think there are any very. There are, I think there are some in the Charles Russell Wildlife Refuge, but very few black footed ferrets, which is a shame because they're cool little guys.

[Molly Conger]

I mean, I guess given what we did to the landscape of so much of the country. I'm sure there are other animals that just like their niche is gone.

[James]

Yeah. And that is exactly what I want to talk about today. Right. Like specifically, I want to talk about buffalo because of the canceling of some public land grazing leases for buffalo. Before we do that, Molly, we should talk about the terminology. Right, the buffalo bison discussion.

[Molly Conger]

Right. Because they're not buffalo. They're bison. They're bison. Bison.

[James]

And as we are, what, five minutes into this, someone has already logged onto Reddit. They have opened already.

[Molly Conger]

The thread already exists. It's too late.

[James]

It's already there.

[Molly Conger]

You might as well even address it. It's too late.

[James]

Yeah, we should have moved this to the. To the front of the episode, I guess to you redditing. Please stop. I am aware that scientifically we should call them bison. I don't care. English speaking people have been calling these animals buffalo since English speaking people came to this continent. They did so because the animals remind them of Cape buffalo. I actually have had a friend gored by a Cape buffalo as well. We're going through most of my goring experience.

[Molly Conger]

You gotta leave these big cow type creatures alone.

[James]

He was ambushed. That my. My goring was entirely my fault. Like, you shouldn't be unkind to animals. And I deserved it. And it was a good learning experience for me. His wasn't. I think it's just a bad overall experience. Being good. Wouldn't recommend it.

[Molly Conger]

I'm avoiding it.

[James]

Yeah, you've got this far. You're probably good. I think men in their twenties are probably like.

[Molly Conger]

I was gonna say, I think once you hit 30, your. Your odds decrease dramatically.

[James]

Yeah, you're out the wind. Unless you're working with cattle. Like, my dad got pretty close a couple of times when I was a kid. I remember jumping over a fence once. But I think that was more of a professional hazard than like a lifestyle choice. So here's the deal, right? There are many species in the USA which have names similar to species on other continents, but they are not the same. European blackbirds and American blackbirds. Right. Robins would be another example. There is a different sheepshead fish. Almost everywhere I have gone underwater, everyone has a sheep's head. The coolest sheep's head for people wondering is California sheep's head because it undergoes a sex change, making it a pretty cool fish. Also, it gets really cool after it transitions. It gets like these black and red stripes. It's like one of my favorite fish. If you want to be censorious about buffalo names, I would suggest picking one of the many indigenous words that have been used to refer to this animal for far, far longer than buffalo or bison. Also, buffalo is one of the cooler words in the English language.

[Molly Conger]

Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo.

[James]

Yes, exactly. Yes. It is the longest single word sentence. Because it's a noun and a verb and a proper noun.

[Molly Conger]

Right, right. Like, so it's buffalo the city, buffalo the animal. Buffalo the verb meaning like what? Like to bully or something to like.

[James]

Yeah. Don't know if you've been around them, but they do do this. They sort of bother, push. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm making, of course, a motion with my neck and shoulders that no one apart from Molly can see. But yeah, they're just kind of aggressive in a sort of pokey and. Yeah, like, it's a good verb. I don't know. Hang around watching buffalo. You'll get it. Yeah, it's a. It's buffalo the proper noun. Buffalo the noun. Buffalo, the verb. Buffalo, the proper noun. Buffalo the verb. No, buffalo the noun.

[Molly Conger]

You have to diagram this one.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Molly Conger]

It's basically like bison from upstate New York are bullying other bison from upstate New York.

[James]

Yes. That is the breakdown of the buffalo sentence.

[Molly Conger]

Fun trivia for everybody.

[James]

Yeah, that's fair. We'll do that at the end of the year. We'll quiz you. Why are we talking about buffalo today?

[Molly Conger]

I can't remember.

[James]

I can. Let me tell you. It is because the Bureau of Land Management has canceled grazing rights in seven allotments of public land in Phillips County, Montana, for privately owned bison. And there's been a bunch of reporting on this. Like, when this stuff happens, when stuff the Trump administration does with public land, the outdoors, they're like. They're like Democrat blue wave fake news. Panic accounts really, really go kind of wild with it. They did with this one. Right. I think people running whatever, like, you know, Occupy Democrats, Nation for Change. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. By Democrats.

[Molly Conger]

I forgot about Pantsuit Nation.

[James]

Wow.

[Molly Conger]

That's a real throwback.

[James]

Yeah. I never forget about the Pantsuit Nation. Yeah. They live forever in my mind. What I think, like, the people of that tendency have not realized is that, like, these are not per se, wild buffalo. It's not like these buffalo have individually like or as a population survived the genocide, been holding out in this land of Phillips county for more than a century. Right. That doesn't mean that we should be callous about this. We shouldn't. But I just want to explain a little bit more. I guess there are still thousands of buffalo across the west, on federal and private land. Some of them have been grazing on public land with permits for more than four decades. Having them on the landscape is a good thing. Right. We need the genetic diversity, even if they're privately owned.

[Molly Conger]

Right. So it's not just like, I don't know, knowing very little about this. I think a lot of the discourse around these, like, permits for grazing on public land, it's like, well, why should these farmers get to use our public land for their property, for their cattle?

[James]

Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

And I don't know enough about that to care about that at all. But in terms of what buffalo do to the grassland, like, just walking around on it and eating it is part of the maintenance of that grassland.

[James]

Yes. Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

Like. Like the. The eradication of the buffalo in the Midwest caused ecological havoc because we need them walking around and shitting on it.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. Specifically, what we need is them coming in, eating everything, trampling around, shitting everywhere, and then leaving. Right. Because that is what, like, so many indigenous cultures have these, like, these, like, traditions that the buffalo go away and then we do a tradition and they come back. Right. This. This happens for a lot of migratory animals. It's not just buffalo. Right. Because it. It gave shape to time in people's lives. That's how they impacted the landscape. Right. They. They didn't stay in one place. They move through spaces. So, like, if we want to restore this short grass prairie ecosystem, which is, as it turns out, why people are putting buffalo on this particular land, then we need a lot of space to do it, and we need the buffalo to be able to move around. Right. So people who own these particular buffalo are an NGO called American Prairie. You heard of American Prairie? Used to be American Prairie Reserve. No. American Prairie Foundation. Okay, great.

[Molly Conger]

Are they the villains or the heroes?

[James]

Neither. I mean, the Trump administration is the villains. Doug Burgum specifically, I guess. Always.

[Molly Conger]

God, I forgot about Doug Burgum.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. Fortunately, Doug is now Interior Secretary. Thanks to REI for signing a letter endorsing him. Also, fuck you. American Prairie is interesting, I guess. Like, it's not what I would want, but I don't think it's evil.

[Molly Conger]

Sounds like most NGOs.

[James]

Yeah, it sounds like most of the world doesn't exist.

[Molly Conger]

Not my preference.

[James]

Yeah. Then how I would do it? American Prairie is a. Is a big ngo. They've been trying for about a quarter of a century to buy up private land adjacent to public land around Charles M. Russell National Wildlife Refuge and the Upper Missouri River Breaks National Monument. So the goal is to create like, by. By, like, bridging these two pieces of public land to create a massive reserve where, like, one of the things with. With bison, specifically. Right. They need a lot of space, and very few bison can cross, like, political boundaries.

[Molly Conger]

They don't have passports.

[James]

They don't. Yeah. This is one of their issues. They're undocumented, you could say. But, like. Like, think about the Yellowstone. People get really mad about the Yellowstone bison leaving the park. This is a big deal. This has been a big deal for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People like what?

[Molly Conger]

Like they're Disney cast members. Like, they're not allowed to leave in costume.

[James]

Yeah, exactly. They have to return.

[Molly Conger]

Take the head off.

[James]

Yeah, they take the head off, take the body off, and just wear the head.

[Molly Conger]

Mickey Mouse can't be walking in the parking lot.

[James]

Yeah. You can't see Mickey Mouse at Fonz. That would really ruin the magic. Yeah. People get mad at them for a number of reasons.

[Molly Conger]

The buffalo don't know about the park,

[James]

that this is a thing. Right. And buffalo, as it turns out, they love to disrespect offense, which I respect. I like that about them.

[Molly Conger]

If I had shoulders like that, I would disrespect a fence.

[James]

Yeah, they. That's. A cattle fencing is generally not sufficient for buffalo fencing, but buffalo fencing can be built. People. It does exist. When people are building it, it's better if they are conscious of other wildlife. Right. Like another of the megafauna in the megafauna that has existed here for Melania but is now in much, much, much lower numbers. Like pronghorn antelope.

[Molly Conger]

Do we have those here?

[James]

Yes. Oh, wow.

[Molly Conger]

I guess I don't really. I've never really been out west, so you guys have. At least out there.

[James]

If you would like us to make a podcast where I take Molly camping.

[Mikey Day]

Show me.

[James]

Incredible. Yeah, we just look at animals. That would be my ideal job, a podcast where I just talk to someone about an animal every week. Like, we go camping, we see an animal, we talk about it.

[Molly Conger]

I didn't know ferrets lived outside. Like, think of all you could show me.

[James]

Yeah, it'd be amazing. Yeah. God, we could have so much fun if we start with the ferrets. Yeah. Pronghorn are amazing. You've not seen a pronghorn.

[Molly Conger]

I thought they lived in Africa. What am I thinking of? Like, an ibex.

[James]

Yeah. I mean, ibex does live in Africa. I think some of them live on. Okay, we're gonna.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, man. Everyone's finding out I don't know anything.

[James]

Podcaster version I'm googling pronghorn antelope. Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

You see them and these are just out there.

[James]

Yeah, they just like, they, they live on the landscape. They actually were massively numerous like before the various extinction events.

[Molly Conger]

So it's like a, like a reindeer that lives in Colorado.

[James]

A reindeer. Reindeer are only reindeer in North America when they're in captivity. Caribou when they, when they are wild. Picture of a caribou.

[Molly Conger]

We don't really have a lot of like wild animals out here, really.

[James]

See, that is. Well, yeah, because the east coast is much more urbanized. Right.

[Molly Conger]

Like, like every now and again a baby bear will wander into town and it's like big sick.

[James]

Okay. Yeah. I like it when a bear bears another animal I have massive respect for. I love how they don't give a shit. I respect any animal that eats from the trash. Yeah. The pronghorns are actually massive. Like I think Antelocapridae is the genus. And then there are different species. There were tons. Like we had, we at one point had tiny like wiener dog sized antelope.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, like a dik dick.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, like a dik dick. But that's a cool guy, but fast.

[Molly Conger]

Oh.

[James]

So one other thing about pronghorns is they can jump. Like I've seen them jump.

[Molly Conger]

Yeah, it looks like a jumping guy.

[James]

Well, they don't like to jump a fence is the thing.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, so then now you have like a, a problem. The buffalo are stuck, but so is the antelope.

[James]

Yeah. Because their speed was always their like defense mechanism. Right. They're super. I think cheetahs are the only land animal that's faster and they don't live

[Molly Conger]

in the same environment.

[James]

No. Yeah, I knew that. Different continents. Yeah. Yeah. There is not a North American cheetah.

[Molly Conger]

I mean at this point you could.

[James]

I think there might have been at one point.

[Molly Conger]

You could tell me there is.

[James]

I think there might have been at one point like a, like a prehistoric cheetah. Look at time. They had like ground slopes and things. But yeah, when you're building the buffalo fencing, you have to allow the pronghorns to go under. If you're trying to build an ecological fence.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, I guess because they could like bend over in a way the buffalo can't.

[James]

Yeah, exactly. There's just more.

[Molly Conger]

Buffalo's too big.

[James]

Yeah. There's a lot of chunk to a buffalo in a way that couldn't get under there. Right. So the other reason people don't like buffalo is because of brucellosis. Do you know what Brucellosis is.

[Molly Conger]

Is it a buffalo disease?

[James]

Well, it's a disease that buffalo can have. Maybe you know it from the Warren Zevon song. You don't. Okay, this is funny. I'm talking to Molly about really American shit. And me, that's a British person.

[Molly Conger]

I don't know any of what you're saying.

[James]

Okay. Warren Zevon, very good, famous musician guy, sadly dead.

[Molly Conger]

He has a song about buffalo disease.

[James]

He has a song which, in part, it talks about brucellosis. It says, the cattle will have brucellosis. What a great journey we're going on.

[Molly Conger]

That's the service I provide as the podcast Idiot, because I know nothing.

[James]

You have. You have. You have a very deep, very deep well of knowledge. It just doesn't extend to Warren Zevon.

[Molly Conger]

No listener left behind. Like, there's no one sitting here listening, wishing that something had been explained more. Because I'm making you explain what antelope are and what a Warren Zevon is.

[James]

Yeah, we could go off on a tangent here, because I don't know if this song is about the fact that Sweet Home Alabama is a deeply, deeply hateful song, but it does. That does get mentioned quite a lot. But, yeah, the brucellosis.

[Molly Conger]

But I feel like once you're touching a buffalo, you have worse problems than whatever this is. Oh, well, not great.

[James]

Yeah, it depends. It depends who you are. Right. Like, what brucellosis does is generally it. It infects heifers. So, like, young lady cows, uh, it will cause them to abort their first calf.

[Molly Conger]

That's sad.

[James]

Yeah, it's sad also, like, because of the way it's controlled, your herd can get killed out if you have brucellosis.

[Molly Conger]

Oh. Like, it would be contagious to people's. Like, cattle.

[James]

Yes. And. And that would be very bad.

[Molly Conger]

So, okay, when you say people don't like buffalo because they're worried about brucellosis, they're not worried that they will get brucellosis. They're worried that it will affect their cattle.

[James]

Yes, I do believe people can get brucellosis. I'm not as familiar with that, apparently.

[Molly Conger]

I'm looking here. Apparently, if you do get it, there's a 20% chance that your testicles are going to swell up real bad, so.

[James]

Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

[Molly Conger]

I guess that's why they don't want it.

[James]

Yeah, well, that would also be bad, right? Like, big bulb brucellosis would be painful, but no.

[Molly Conger]

Okay, so we're talking about the cattle industry. I'm on board.

[James]

I'm on board. Yeah. It's the cattle that they're concerned about. They can take or leave the testicular swelling. Like they're tough.

[Molly Conger]

Why are they touching the buffalo in the first place? They're not okay.

[James]

Yeah, they're not okay. Yeah, it's a, it's a buff coming out and causing the cattle to get bruisellosis. Right. Here's the deal. Elk also can get brucellosis.

[Molly Conger]

I know about elk. We have those.

[James]

Okay. Yeah, you're gonna. Okay. So an elk also travels widely, Right? An elk, it's not generally an animal that is kept behind high fences. Sometimes there probably are high fence, like game farms where people pay to go in and hunt elk.

[Molly Conger]

I think we have some in Virginia.

[James]

Yeah, that's, that's kind of gross, in my opinion. I don't like that. But elk also carry brucellosis. Right. So if we're concerned about brucellosis, we also need to be concerned about elk. But it, it really doesn't get brought up in the elk discussion. It gets brought up in the, in the buffalo discussion. So these are the reasons that, some of the reasons that people don't like buffalo.

[Molly Conger]

Right, right. Because they carry, they carry a cow disease and they don't like to stay inside the park. Got it.

[James]

Okay. Yep, yep. They don't like to stay inside the park. We've talked for a long time, Molly. Talking of things that might cause your testicles to swell, here is some products and services.

[Molly Conger]

Or maybe it'll help.

[James]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe you'll have bought your first calf. Who knows? It's roll the dice.

[Advertisement Voice]

Dish has been connecting communities like yours for the last 45 years, providing the TV you love at a price to you can trust. Watch live sports news and the latest movies, plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place. Switch to DISH today and lock in the lowest price in satellite TV starting at $89.99 a month with our two year price guarantee. Call 888-D dish or visit dish.com today,

[Mikey Day]

another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group.

[Advertisement Voice]

The worst.

[Mikey Day]

Yeah, me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation?

[James]

The Yardbirds, right? That's the name.

[Mikey Day]

The Harvard Yard. But they're open.

[James]

Do you have a name suggestion? We're open.

[Mikey Day]

Since you guys are middle aged, one erection, listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[James]

Humor me. I need some jokes to make make me seem funny.

[Carlos King]

If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down.

[Basketball Player (Steph Curry's guest)]

Portia accusing Kelly of sleeping with a married man.

[Mikey Day]

They holding K Michelle back from fighting. Drew Pinky has financial issues.

[Molly Conger]

I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's gonna be interesting.

[Carlos King]

On the podcast Reality with the King I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the tea everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this at the end of the day when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the kids on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[James]

The story I've told myself about love

[Molly Conger]

or relationships can then shape my behavior and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

This mental health awareness month, tune into the podcast Deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self discovery and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace and self mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected, we're becoming more individualized. But we actually need people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you. To hear more, listen to Deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[James]

All right, we are back. So let's talk about the area where this is happening. Right? This is happening in, in kind of north and central Montana, around Livingston. Lots of the land in this area has actually dropped below the population density that Turner considered to be evidence of the closure of the frontier when he was developing that thesis. Right. I'm not a big fan of the concept of the frontier if that's another podcast that I'll make one day. But I'm.

[Molly Conger]

I Don't like it, but there's like no people there.

[James]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, there are, There are very few people there. In part because cattle farming is hard, in part because it's harder in a globalized economy, in part because of climate change. There's this theory of the Buffalo Commons written by two people called Popper, and they considered like this specific area to be a tragedy of the commons, where this, this, this beautiful plains ecosystem has been destroyed. And they put forward the idea that the presence of buffalo on the landscape could return it to a sort of short grass prairie commons. This isn't a direct link to the American prairie Reserve, but this is kind of what they're trying to do. They're not putting buffalo on the landscape because they are a buffalo organization.

[Molly Conger]

Right. So they're trying to restore the grassland.

[James]

Yes, that's the idea. Because we don't have a prairie national park. Right. When colonization was moving west, as the Department of Homeland Security likes to highlight with its use of that image, Liberty was floating across the plains there. Sorry, let's just put an image in my head. Remember when the Trump administration was getting very aggressive towards Somali people? I guess it still is. Yeah, yeah. Did you see the AI version of that where it was a Somali woman, like, crossing the plains? No. No. Okay. It was pretty funny. It was one of the.

[Molly Conger]

You're doing a pose like, like, like the mermaid on the front of a ship.

[James]

Yeah, exactly, yeah, like, like, yeah, it was like this is a Somali promised land. Like they, they were like, I guess, parodying American rhetoric towards indigenous people and

[Molly Conger]

being like, so, like Somali people can't do Manifest Destiny. I thought we loved that.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, it was very funny. It was, it was kind of amusing to see that American rhetoric reflected back. Somali people have incredible posting abilities that DHS was not ready for. So what the, what the APR is trying to do is. Yeah. Use the buffalo here as like a landscape engineer. Right. Like an animal that will help return this area to. I guess natural state is a problematic term, you know, but, but like, to

[Molly Conger]

its pre industrial state.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. When we think about, like, why isn't there a plains in the national park, we have to consider the role that capitalism plays. Right.

[Molly Conger]

Because no one would go visit that.

[James]

Yeah, well, I think they would. The plains would be beautiful in their, in their way. Right.

[Molly Conger]

But I guess, like, you know, just thinking of, like, is the role of the national park to preserve this landscape, this ecosystem, or is it to create a place where people could go and buy things?

[James]

Yeah, exactly. Right.

[Molly Conger]

And increasingly it's the latter.

[James]

Yeah. And I think there is a bias towards preserving. Yeah, there's, there's like a scenic vista bias. This is an area where people could ranch cattle, and so that happened instead. And then we got to a point where no one was going to give up their private land to make a massive park.

[Molly Conger]

Well, they didn't want to in any of the other times either. So the government needs to make you.

[James]

Yeah, the government could force you back in the day.

[Molly Conger]

I mean, I just can't imagine a new national park ever coming into existence. We just don't have that kind of political will anymore.

[James]

Yeah, I mean, we might get like, the Donald Trump's birthplace National park or like something similar.

[Molly Conger]

You know, like, we would never get Yellowstone again.

[James]

Yeah, we wouldn't. And, like, part of that is because they violently remove the indigenous people from those places in order to.

[Molly Conger]

I don't want to romanticize that. Like, I live near Shenandoah Valley national park where people were forced out in a pretty brutal way. That's a big part of the history here. So I don't want to romanticize the creation of the national park. I just mean, like, the government is not going to spend a lot of money on something that's just for everyone to enjoy ever again.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. And they're not, you know, they're not going to say, like, to an extent, we are removing this piece of land from the rapacious capitalism that has destroyed the rest of our natural spaces.

[Molly Conger]

So some. If somebody's going to eat this grass, it's going to be hamburgers.

[James]

We want it to turn into the cheapest meat possible. Also, like, I should point out that, like, land back and national parks are very, very, very different things. I like to kind of illustrate this with the idea that during the Nez Perce War, as the Nez Perce are fighting their way towards the Canadian border, they are having gunfights in Yellowstone national park as tourists are coming to Yellowstone to, like, check out the mountains and see the guises and stuff.

[Molly Conger]

You know, that's. That's America. That's.

[James]

Yeah, that is. It's perfectly America. Right. Like, we'll look at. With. Look, we're preserving this for you as we violently remove the indigenous people and

[Molly Conger]

just like, coming to spend your tourism dollars. Never mind that there's a war going on there.

[James]

Yeah. Just being like, just kind of letting

[Molly Conger]

that go past whatever the time period equivalent of a visor and a fanny pack was. That was cooking.

[James]

Yeah, for sure. Probably. Probably a cigar and I know, like, trousers to stop past your knee. So you'll hear people saying a lot of shit about the API, the American Prairie Reserve. Right. And so I did what I should do as a responsible journalist, and I pulled their 9 90s.

[Molly Conger]

That's my favorite thing to do.

[James]

Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

Where's the money going?

[James]

Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

Well, where's the money coming from?

[James]

Yeah, where's the money coming from? You'll hear a lot of, like, anti APR stuff. Some of it's from the cattle industry. Right. If you go through that part of Montana, you'll see signs that say, like, save the Cowboys, Stop the American Prairie Reserve.

[Molly Conger]

I think we have a different understanding of what a cowboy is. Me and the sign maker.

[James]

Yeah, right. Well, it is inherently tied, I guess, to cattle. Right. And the idea being that these bison are displacing cattle. It's not a direct contract with cattle. In fact, the APR has like, 10 times more cattle on its land than it does bison. Like most ranchers, the APR has deeded or private land that they graze on, leasing right. To adjacent public land. What the APR is spending its money on, among other things. Among like, some staffing costs, office costs, paying consultants, paying fundraisers.

[Molly Conger]

Gotta pay consultants.

[James]

Oh, yeah, they're dropping some coin on consultants is they buy up ranches. The way land ownership works in this area is kind of like a checkerboard, and you've got public land and private land.

[Molly Conger]

So they're trying to make, like, pathways for the bison by buying contiguous plots.

[James]

Yeah, they're not all contiguous, but their goal is to have a large contiguous area in which.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

Right.

[Molly Conger]

And you just have to buy them when they come up.

[James]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The argument is that they're pushing up land prices. Right. But in reality, this area is depopulating rapidly. It might push up land prices a little bit, but it's not like there's massive bidding wars going on here for each of these ranches.

[Molly Conger]

Right. Because are there new, like, people seeking new cattle ranching opportunities who are trying to move in, who are being prevented from doing that?

[James]

Would it be people trying to, like, either, I guess, if. Yeah. Expand their ranch or if a family's subdividing its ranch, or if you didn't inherit your family ranch, I guess, and want to buy some land? Generally how it works here is you. You buy a certain part of land, It'll be like, 60, 40, 70, 30, something like that. So you'll buy land, and that will give you the privilege to have, like, first dibs on grazing on the public land that is adjacent to your land. So most of these ranches are checkerboarded. Right. It's not like a big contiguous plot. So not being able to graze the bison on the public land kind of fucks that up in these plots for the American prairie people. Right. And like I should say that, like I have some sympathy for people ranching in this area. Like my family of farmers. Like it's got to be really fucking hard right now when fuel prices are insanely high to to be trying to farm on these. Especially the way that like American people farm over massive expanses. Right. You have to be be in a vehicle a lot. When I was reading about the brucellosis stuff and it made me think of foot and mouth disease, which happened in the UK when I was a child, I remember how traumatic that was for people having their whole herds killed. Several people who were like within our extended family social circle killed themselves.

[Molly Conger]

That's horrible.

[James]

When they lost all their cattle. Yeah. Like it's really fucked up. Like at least in that part of the world, like you might have, it might have been your great grandfather who started breeding these cattle. Right. Like it's an intergenerational project that joins line family. So I do understand these people are like deeply tied to this land also not in the same way as indigenous people. I can see that people don't want it to change. I understand that. And like consolidation in agriculture, climate change, the way our food ecosystem works, that is an issue we should address if we want to take care of the land. What the government is doing is not how we address that. Sometimes you'll see people saying that the APR is entirely a tax avoidance system for the Mars family.

[Molly Conger]

Like the chocolate people?

[James]

Yeah, yeah, big chocolate. You familiar the Mars family are rich as.

[Molly Conger]

Yeah. I didn't know they were involved in the, in the bison industry.

[James]

Well, they, they have donated. I couldn't find an exact figure. Right. Like with the change of non profit, like the reporting laws, it's a lot harder now than it used to be.

[Molly Conger]

So they don't own or operate it. They've just made large donations.

[James]

They've made large donations. There's a unit called Mars Vista within the apron which has some private housing on it. But like I think people are fundamentally misunderstanding how the super wealthy, like these people are worth more than a hundred billion dollars. I would highly encourage anyone who thinks that an NGO which is going through like in the tens of millions a year maybe by 2015. So in the first 14 years of this, this project's existence, they donated 20 million. That's not touching the edges.

[Molly Conger]

I'm sure they have a complicated tax shelter system set up for themselves that doesn't involve bison. It invol all the bank accounts in countries you haven't heard of.

[James]

Yes, exactly. Like the Panama Papers had zero bison in it for a reason. Right. Like, you're just being very. It's very sweet if you think that, like, the way that they are avoiding paying federal taxes is buying land to put buffalo on.

[Molly Conger]

Like, all these families have their own whole foundations that are just about moving money around in opaque ways. Yeah. If you're trying to avoid paying taxes, you don't donate to a real charity that's actually doing something complicated with physical animals and land. You have. You have a foundation that does grants for something obscure.

[James]

Yeah. Like, it's just not. It's just. Just not it. Like, it's just. It's not it. That's not how taxes work. That's not how rich people work. So we talked about brucelosis going to move past brucellosis. I had a diversion on chronic wasting disease and elk feeding, but maybe we'll make that a whole other podcast. So we also talked about this. This checkerboarding of public land. Right. Lots of these ranching operations that they're buying rely heavily on public land grazing. So in 2022, they applied. In 2019, the BLM allowed them to graze bison on seven plots in Phillips County. Right. So that's saying that you can put your bison on this public land, which is adjacent to the private land which

[Molly Conger]

you own, and that's standard practice. Everybody's doing that.

[James]

It depends on the particular plot. Right. So they had to apply to the Bureau of Land Management.

[Molly Conger]

But you said it's, like, pretty common for people to be grazing to get these permits to graze on the public land.

[James]

There have been bison on public land for 40 years. There remain bison on public land across the west. To include some tribes graze bison on public land as well as on tribal land.

[Molly Conger]

But, like, the cattle farmers are doing this as well.

[James]

Oh, yeah. The cattle farmers are all doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Molly Conger]

So that's what I'm saying. Like, if you buy this plot of land, it's, like, kind of common that you would also be grazing on the public land adjacent to it.

[James]

Yeah, it's entirely understood. Like. Oh, not even adjacent to, but sometimes, like, interspersed with. Yeah, like, so if you look at, like, sometimes you'll see, like, a deeded and a leased acreage when you're looking at, like, a land. Like, if you were. If you were interested in buying a ranch. Molly.

[Molly Conger]

So, like when they. So when they bought this land, it would be reasonable for them to assume that they would be able to use the parcels adjacent and interspersed within it.

[James]

Yes.

[Molly Conger]

Yeah. Okay.

[James]

Yes. And they would have known that that would have required, in some cases, asking the BLM. Right. Which is what they did. And in 2022, the BLM said, go ahead, put your bison on this. On these particular seven plots. Right. So they were amended to include bison. They got environmental impact study done. You know, they did all the things I was doing.

[Molly Conger]

An environmental impact study of the presence of a native animal.

[James]

Yeah. On its native range.

[Molly Conger]

What. What would happen if a buffalo lived here?

[James]

Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

We asked 10 government scientists y spent

[James]

thousands of dollars finding out what happens if buffalo lives in buffalo home. Turned out it didn't do massive ecological damage. So BLM said, let the buffalo back. What is interesting about this rule change is the justification the BLM is using and that is the thing that people should be worried about, in my opinion. That should be the headline. The headline should be, so the BLM is trying to regulate these leases that have their roots in the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act.

[Molly Conger]

I'm nodding, I'm nodding knowingly.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, the Taylor Grazing Act, a big deal when it comes to like public land in the west and farming. Right. It is trying to regulate these leases to quote, unquote, productive purposes. It doesn't say productive purposes anywhere I can find in the Taylor Grazing Act. It does use a term, I guess domestic livestock.

[Molly Conger]

A bison could be a livestock.

[James]

Well, they are a livestock.

[Molly Conger]

I've eaten them.

[James]

Yeah, they, these bison are vaccinated, they are fenced, they are tagged. They'll be handled. I'm guessing the way that API does it is like a kind of non invasive handling. Like trying to keep them not acclimated to human contact per se. But like, it's hard to. These are livestock. Yeah. You can get like beefalo. Right. Which is like a, like a hybridized bison.

[Molly Conger]

They sell bison at my Whole Foods. That's livestock.

[James]

Yeah. The APR is not raising them to kill them, to sell them for meat.

[Molly Conger]

But they could if they wanted to. Like, because, like, I'm not. I don't think the government is ever gonna go to a cattle rancher and say, you have to kill X number of these or they're no longer livestock.

[James]

Yeah, well, that is the question. Right. Like, what if we choose. If you gave me a million dollars today, I would immediately cease making podcasts. I would buy a large plot of land and I would have an ungodly number of rare and endangered domestic livestock species. Right. I'd have Jacob's sheep. I. I'd have polycarate sheep with four horns, you know, like Satan looking sheep. I'd be all about it.

[Molly Conger]

And they would remain legally livestock even if intention of eating them.

[James]

Well, that is the question. Right. The productive purposes definition could be extremely broad. What if you're doing practices like restorative ranching? Right.

[Molly Conger]

What if the. What if the Bureau of Land Management was concerned with the land being properly managed?

[James]

Well, at a point, I guess the. The BLM was right. Because there was a rule. This is actually kind of funny. It was called the conservation and landscape health rule rule and the BLM rescinded that last week. So previously that was one of the considerations for managing land, for managing public land. And I guess like we should just briefly say that there is no such thing as government land. Right. It's all native land. And the land which is currently managed by the government is paid for by me and Molly and everyone else. Doug Burgam doesn't own it. It is there for future generations. Right.

[Molly Conger]

Like it's like what is the. What are they going to do with it if they kick the buffalo off of it?

[James]

Cattle would be my guess. The cattle only leases, so they're just

[Molly Conger]

going to lease it to someone else.

[James]

Yeah, but like I guess some portions of public land in that part of Montana are entirely landlocked by private land. Like one of the things that APR did that made people like it there is that the APR bought a bunch, bought a ranch and then opened up a gated road which allowed people to access 50,000 acres of public land that had previously been completely islanded. Right. So like, right, what their plan is to do, they have to sell these ranches now.

[Molly Conger]

So the government just is saying you can't use this publicly land anymore in such a way that might negate your ability to use your privately owned land. Because we don't think bison are livestock.

[James]

Yeah, because bison are woke more broadly like this conservation and landscape health rule. Rescincian is worrying. Very amusingly, the BLM has forgotten to take down the website that explains the value of the rule. So at the time of recording, the PLM's website still says, quote, the rule recognizes conservation as an essential component of public lands management on equal footing with other multiple uses of these habitats. Americans rely on public lands to deliver food, energy, clean air and water, wildlife habitat and places to recreate. The BLM knows the importance of balancing our use of natural resources with protecting public lands and waters for future generations. The rule will safeguard these lands and waters to protect our way of life. Still a bit cringe, but they've now rescinded that rule. So I guess our way of life is now under threat.

[Mikey Day]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guest square, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Worst singer in the group.

[Advertisement Voice]

The worst.

[Mikey Day]

Yeah, me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard you only got in because your parents made a huge donation?

[James]

The Yardbirds, right? That's the name.

[Mikey Day]

The Harvard Yard. But they're open.

[James]

Do you have a name suggestion?

[Mikey Day]

We're open since you guys are middle aged. One erection Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[James]

Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. The story I've told myself about love

[Molly Conger]

or relationships can then shake my behavior.

[James]

And then and that can lead me

[Molly Conger]

to sabotage the possibility of connection.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast Deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self discovery and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well being and the practices that help you find clarity, peace and self mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected, we're becoming more individualized. But we actually need people and connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you. To hear more, listen to Deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Carlos King]

If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down.

[Basketball Player (Steph Curry's guest)]

Portia accusing Kelly of sleeping with a

[Mikey Day]

married man, they holding K Michelle back from fighting. Drew Pinky has financial issues.

[Molly Conger]

I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's gonna be interesting.

[Carlos King]

On the podcast Reality with the King I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances and the tea everybody's talking about. As an executive Producer in reality television. I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this at the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more. Listen to reality with the king on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

Why is everyone obsessed with romance right now? Like, everyone your co worker who quote

[Ashanti Plummer]

unquote doesn't read is reading romance.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

Your mom booktok the entire Internet.

[James]

I'm Sanjanah bhasker. I'm Tyler McCall and this is Radio831, a romance podcast. The books, the tropes, the adaptations, the

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

drama, the discourse, and what all of it says about how we actually love, yearn and obsess. We're going to Wuthering Heights, which, for the record, is not a romance novel.

[James]

And yet it has haunted the romance

[Ashanti Plummer]

genre for 200 years.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

We're getting into dark romance age gaps, certain Russian hockey players and sentient objects

[James]

in love, which is a thing.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

That's the kind of conversation we're having every episode. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Molly Conger]

Don't understand how this is justifiable at all. But I guess that's not really the

[James]

point for a lot of people. Right? Like, it sort of flies under the radar because it's not, you know, like a big Washington thing. I can see how, like, in our major population centers, it could be easily to be like, who the fuck cares where the cows in buffalo go?

[Molly Conger]

But I think even aside from. From an ecological argument, which I think is very important. Right. The restoration of these grasslands. This is the government saying, no, we're going to take this public resource away from someone who is rightfully using it and paying to use it, and we're going to sell that right instead to a capitalist concern over a bullshit fake reason.

[James]

Yeah, like, not that the APR is not. I suppose it's not really a capitalist concern. It's like a nonprofit.

[Molly Conger]

But there has to be some sort of big cattle lobbying at play here.

[James]

Yeah. I think there are elements of the cattle industry which have been opposed to bison especially, like, due to that, like, departure of bison from the park is really something that for years has been like a point of tension in Yellowstone. It's worth noting. Like who. Yeah. Who is for this and who is against it? I guess it is cattle ranchers who are opposed to the grazing of bison

[Molly Conger]

out here and who specifically is getting Those seven specific plots.

[James]

Yeah. Well, I think the reason they rescinded those is because they were the seven most recently approved.

[Molly Conger]

Okay.

[James]

Because there are other plots. Like, I think there are tribes in California, for instance, who have applied for. For buffalo grazing on public land. And I should point out that, like a tribal cultural herd, a food sovereignty herd is a very different thing to the apr. And I hope the APR did not exactly know that tribal interests would.

[Molly Conger]

But I guess as far as the government is concerned, it's the same that the answer is just no.

[James]

I don't know yet. We don't know yet. We don't know if those tribal leases have been approved. What we do know is that, like, this production standard is a serious threat to them. The coalition of large tribes actually wrote a letter opposing this decision. I'll quote from it here. It is offensive and unacceptable that the federal government would still seek to keep buffalo off of these lands. Chairman of the Cheyenne river sioux tribe Ryman LeBeau wrote, adding that BLM lands are all former buffalo lands. He calls the decision a painful reprise the genocide the federal government attempted to commit against us and our relative buffalo. They also called it affirmative action for cattle, which was kind of funny.

[Molly Conger]

Wow.

[James]

True. Yeah. But yeah, it is true. Like. Like, it is like saying they're doing cow dei. Yeah, yeah. This is one. One ungulate is fine and the other one isn't. I want people to be concerned about this because, like, it could be deeply damaging to the attempts of tribes to recover their buffalo population. It could be deeply damaging to our public lands. I guess I want to talk briefly about the buffalo genocide because I think it's something that people have, like, a grasp of, but not like a. Maybe an in depth understanding. What I want to briefly say is the government played a massive role in wiping out of most of our buffalo. We ended up with fewer than a thousand head of buffalo. There were times when a tree falling down, a lightning strike, a bad flood could have significantly altered the future of the species because there were so few. Capitalism also played a role, though. The idea that the buffalo hunters were just following orders from the government relies in part on books written by former buffalo hunters trying to absolve themselves. I would suggest that we also look at the incentive provided to kill the animals and to not make use of their remains after people did that. Right. Because, like, as much as the government did, the capitalism that the government was bringing with it killed the. Killed the majority of the wild buffalo in this country. And that is what's happening again. Right. We look at Public Lands Management today. Like last year I was in Chaco Canyon. Chaco Canyon was the site of the biggest building in what is now the United states until the 1880s.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, wow.

[James]

Chacoan civilization built these massive great houses there. Really, really beautiful, amazing place. One of the less visited units in the National Park System. Gorgeous. Amazing. I saw some elk there too.

[Molly Conger]

This is all news to me.

[James]

You gotta go to Chaco Canyon.

[Molly Conger]

We have to find something we can record. That gets me down to the Southwest.

[James]

Yeah, I bet there are some bigots. You know there are. Because they use appropriate. The Zuni sacred sun symbol in some of their Nazi shit. Because it have. Have we not done enough? Well, apparently not. Right. Because there is. There is a campaign to have drilling to, like, delist areas of Jaco Canyon. I also spent time last year in Gwich in Homeland with Gwichin people there. What's happening is the Trump administration is trying to grant drilling permits in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. The Gwich' in people, I should say, preferred to use the term Arctic Refuge. So I'm gonna try and use that going forward. They don't like anwar, just the acronym. So what that will do. Right. Is on the plain there. Drilling is the place where the caribou migrates. The porcupine caribou herd makes the longest land mammal migration in the world.

[Molly Conger]

So we're just speed running the devastation of every cool big animal we have.

[James]

Yeah, like. Like we're going to do drilling in the place where the caribou carve. Right. And if they don't go there to

[Molly Conger]

carve, then it's over.

[James]

Yeah. And there are so few of these animals left. Right. That can cross political boundaries, that can travel their great distances unimpeded by capitalism, largely. That's because the Gwich in territory is not a reservation. It's like they own it. So they can go off public land onto Gwich inland. And without the caribou, like, the Gwich' in culture cannot be the same as it is. Right. The caribou is sacred to them. Like their culture and the existence of the caribou, I guess, are tied together. And the same could be said for bison. Right. Like, that is part of the reason that we don't have bison on the plains anymore. Because indigenous people and the bison went hand in hand in the genocide of the indigenous peoples. There was also genocide of the buffalo, I guess, and those two things weren't separate or distinct. And I think there's this idea in the American liberal psyche that bison being on the land Constitutes a return. And like, that's not it. Right. Like, privately owned bison being on the apr is not land back.

[Molly Conger]

I mean, it would restore the grassland to some degree, but that's not. That doesn't have the same cultural impact as returning the land to its natural stewards.

[James]

Yeah, exactly. And allowing indigenous people to like, manage the land for future generations in the way that they did for millennia before this massive extinction event, the European colonization.

[Molly Conger]

I hope nobody thinks they privately own buffalo flock is the same as landback.

[James]

Yeah, I hope not. I really hope not. Like, did you see, like, when, like the fork pet drives were like, killing some of their buffalo to feed people during the last shutdown?

[Molly Conger]

I do remember that. Yeah.

[James]

Yeah. There was kind of a strange reaction being like, oh, how sad that they have to. To kill their buffalo.

[Molly Conger]

Like, but that's what the buffalo are for.

[James]

Yes. That is why they.

[Molly Conger]

The.

[James]

The buffalo are there sort of the. So the culture can exist and it's

[Molly Conger]

not like a sacred cow situation.

[James]

Yeah, yeah.

[Molly Conger]

That is sacred to them, but not in that way.

[James]

Yeah. Like, it is sacred to them and it is sustaining to them. Right. And like, that's my understanding at least. And having spent a little bit of time with people who have that relationship to other animals like that. When I think about, like, which inference in their caribou, like, they will fight as hard as they can to preserve their caribou herd. That. That doesn't. That's not like a different thing from them. They also hunt the caribou and eat it. Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

Part of the natural relationship with them is sometimes eating them.

[James]

Yeah. And like they did. In that way, the culture is sustained by the ongoing presence of the animal.

[Molly Conger]

Right. I guess. I guess we just. I don't know that the western mind. We can only hunt something to extinction. We can't contemplate.

[James]

Yeah. Wanting to coexist with it.

[Molly Conger]

A symbiotic coexistence where we. We eat them sometimes, but we don't want them all to be dead.

[James]

Yeah. Right. We're not just going to be like, okay, that was fun while it lasted.

[Molly Conger]

Onto the next one.

[James]

Yeah. Let's do the next species now. So, like, people should be worried about this. This is not the end of bison on public lands. It's not the end of bison on tribal lands. But this productivity standard should really concern people. BLM is the biggest public lands management agency. Sometimes it gets jokingly called the Bureau of Livestock and Mining, which is pretty much the way it's going. Right, Right.

[Molly Conger]

So is there a legal definition being used Here, like something from a statute or something from a contract. Like, what is this? What is productive use?

[James]

That's a. Productive use is a standard that they have derived from the term domestic livestock in the Taylor Grazing Act.

[Molly Conger]

And then how is domestic livestock legally defined? Any domesticated animal?

[James]

Yeah. Well, they are claiming that it is domestic livestock if it is productive.

[Molly Conger]

But this is circular, right? So productive use means livestock, and livestock have to be productive. But what is productive? It's livestock. Livestock is productive.

[James]

Well, there has to be like a cash exchange. I. I guess, like they're saying, like, it has to be raised for sale,

[Molly Conger]

but then, like, how exactly are we measuring that? Does it have to be profitable?

[James]

Does it have to be extracting the maximum, like, output out of that given area of land?

[Molly Conger]

Do you have to be exporting something? Like, do you have to have a government? Like, what is the threshold here for what's productive?

[James]

Yeah. APR has given bison meat to food banks before, so apparently that doesn't meet the standard.

[Molly Conger]

Right. So like without, without a hard and fast, like, clear written standard, this is the government just deciding who does or doesn't get to do business with them.

[James]

Yeah. And who, who does and doesn't have access? There are issues, big issues with grazing cattle on public land. Ecological, social, climate change, animal welfare. There are issues, many of them. But the idea that if you wanted to, let's say if you wanted to raise fewer cattle and do like, what they call regenerative ranching to something more sustainable, you couldn't because it's not as productive. It's bonkers. Right. On public land, like on.

[Molly Conger]

Right. So now you lose, you lose your government contract because you tried, you try something, try something new, try something sustainable.

[James]

You tried to be too nice to the land that supposedly belongs to everyone.

[Molly Conger]

1. So in order, in order to use this land that is supposed to be for, you know, public preservation, you have to be as exploitative and destructive as possible.

[James]

Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

Great. Thank you, Doug Burgum.

[James]

Yeah. Cool. Are we going to extend this to, like, I'm not as familiar with mining, but you can stake a claim on public land? Right. Lots of. Most mining claims aren't imagined, are staked on public land. And you can, you can exploit that claim. Is it now going to be the case that, like, you have to exploit that claim? Like, if we don't have this standard of maintaining the land and that instead is gone now, and that the only standard is it has to be as

[Molly Conger]

productive as possible, then how is that Land management. This is the Bureau of Land Exploitation.

[James]

Yeah. The BLM is just. And I know the BLM have done this for many centers. Isn't that. This isn't new for the blm, but

[Molly Conger]

like, but having officially rescinded their rule on conserving the land.

[James]

Yeah. Then this could be really bad. Right. Like massive chunks of the west are managed by the blm and like the idea that they're only going to allow the most productive uses or force the most productive uses. Like, this is one of the many ways the Trump administration is attacking public lands that people should talk about more.

[Molly Conger]

And again, without adequately defining it, I just feel like this is another vector for just handing out government resources to donors, to allies.

[James]

Yeah. And like without any change in statute. Right. This is the law that Burgum is reinterpreting here. You've got the 1934 Taylor Grazing act and then there's a 1976 law. And the statutory language is that the BLM should manage the land for multiple use and sustained yield. That is broad. But like, we are not going to get this Congress to pass a better one.

[Molly Conger]

No. And if anybody does try to take this to court, the Supreme Court will just say, no, you have to strip mine the field.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, your only choice, you have to

[Molly Conger]

frack even whether there's gas there or not. You have to set up fracking.

[James]

You're like obliged to do feedlots even though you can't. Like, it's just like a really concerning area that I think has been approached kind of almost tokenistically in some of the press. Like, this is bad for everyone. Right. If the government is saying you can only ranch this way on public land, like, that's also bad for ranches all over the West.

[Molly Conger]

Right.

[James]

I don't think that, like the way that we restore our land to its custodians and to like its natural state is big private parks. Like APR is like a private national park. Right. Like, you can walk through lots of it, you can hunt on it. Like public land. In some places you can camp on it. They have dispersed camping. That's nice. I don't believe in the benevolence of the rich because like, look how we fucking got here.

[Molly Conger]

Right. But that, that half measure was the best thing we had at this moment. And now it's illegal.

[James]

Yeah, now it's. And like, I, I'm glad that these rich people are putting buffalo on the landscape because we need more of them. Like, if we're ever going to have truly wild herds, we need that genetic diversity. Right. They've been through horrible Genetic bottlenecks in getting up to this half a million number.

[Molly Conger]

Right. It's not like we can just try again later. Let it, Let the number drop back down. We'll try again in a hundred years. Like, at some point we've missed the boat.

[James]

Yeah. And as the climate continues to change. Right. We have to think about how land management, food procurement plays a role in our future. And like, this is the opposite of doing that. And I think people ought to be concerned about that. There's not much you could do about it. Like, it's these people who weren't elected, like, ruling on things that are not statutory. But it is something that I think people ought to add to that many concerns with the Trump administration, I guess be more worried. Yeah. I don't know. I don't want you to be more worried. I want you to go outside, like, see a buffalo. It would be nice.

[Molly Conger]

No, but at least know that I don't know, the, the future existence of the world as we know it is being attacked from all sides, even from directions I wasn't aware of.

[James]

Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

There are, there are attack vectors that I just had not considered.

[James]

Yeah. This is a new and exciting way that they're making shit worse. So. Yeah. I, I hope you enjoyed a little diversion about buffalo next week. I want to talk about bears. I'm on a tear.

[Molly Conger]

The bears I'm excited to learn about because. Yeah, I've seen a bear and I know they live in the United States, unlike.

[James]

They do.

[Molly Conger]

I guess I was thinking of like Springbok, maybe.

[James]

They kind of.

[Molly Conger]

Yeah, they look like that in it. First I'm. I don't know what I said. I've been to a zoo and they have, okay, antelope type animals there. So I just. I don't know. Everything at the zoo must be from far away.

[James]

Now. The pronghorn is like, it's. There's, There's a cool zoo. I'm not a big zoo guy.

[Molly Conger]

No, you gotta make sure it's one of the. One of those ones that I don't know is accredited. Yeah.

[James]

Yeah. There's one in Palm Springs where you can see. I've seen big. I've been fortunate enough to see bighorn sheep in their natural habitat.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, wow.

[James]

But for most people, your best chance again to look at a bighorn sheep is to go to that one in Palm Springs. When you see a pronghorn just pronging, you know, like, do they, like. Yeah, they bounce along. They got those giant tendons. Right. A Buffalo can go 35 miles an hour. And they're faster than a buffalo. So, like, I don't want to see

[Molly Conger]

a buffalo go 35 miles an hour. I don't want to see that.

[James]

Oh, they can be it. Yeah. It's like seeing a minivan, like doing muscle car shit, you know, like they can jump. They have this incredible buffalo can, like jump over stuff. Stuff. Like, they're actually very nimble despite looking, you know, like a. Like a cinder block.

[Molly Conger]

Well, they're so cute, though. I want to touch one so bad, but I don't.

[James]

Brucellosis fires against it. Yeah. Brucellosis is going to be a long term issue. It's. Yeah, it's the trampling. There'll be a short term issue for you. So, yeah. Don't touch buffalo.

[Molly Conger]

Don't touch them.

[James]

Send. Send Molly pictures of your pronghorn encounters.

[Molly Conger]

Yeah. If you have seen a wild animal in the United States, Let me see it. I didn't know we had those.

[James]

Yeah. Getting Molly's replies with your raccoons in your trash.

[Molly Conger]

Raccoons, I know about. I've seen a raccoon.

[James]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

I was in South Korea many years ago at a theme park that had a zoo in it. I don't know, it was a while ago.

[James]

Perfect.

[Molly Conger]

In the zoo area, there was this huge display. Everyone was crowded around. This very cool zoo animal was raccoons.

[James]

Oh, really?

[Molly Conger]

They don't have them.

[James]

Yeah. They play such a cultural role in the American cultural hegemony.

[Molly Conger]

I don't want to see a raccoon, but I guess. Yeah. If you can't see one, that's an intriguing get.

[James]

So, yeah, I remember. I like my initial engagement with raccoons was through the. The movie Pocahontas, which is a whole other. That. So when I first saw a raccoon, I wanted to visit it. Right. Because you know, they have biscuits. Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

You thought it was gonna be like a chatty.

[James]

Yeah.

[Molly Conger]

Like a little friend.

[James]

Yeah. It was very aggressive. Be unnecessarily aggressive.

[Molly Conger]

Not a little friend.

[James]

Yeah. I was approaching it a spirit of kindness, I think, like, generally. I also have been victimized by a skunk for several years now, so I think maybe I just.

[Molly Conger]

That's not a friend.

[James]

No.

[Molly Conger]

It finds what those ladies on Tick Tock that have pet ones will tell you. That is not a friend.

[James]

Apparently they're very nice if they, like, can be encouraged not to. I know. I don't think. Don't. Please don't. Capture a skunk and bring it home with you. Like, like the skunk wants to Live on its own. But, yeah, this one skunk will find me. Every time I'm going through, like, I'll be coming out at night, he's thinking about you on my head like it's like a Exocet missile. I see him coming from, like, 200 yards away.

[Molly Conger]

It's that guy again.

[James]

Yeah, he's pissed at me. I'm pissed for him. He turns around, he squares up.

[Molly Conger]

Did you get caught?

[James]

No, no. He'll show his ass to me, and then I'll. I'll just kind of. Of give him a wide berth and think, oh, that was unusual, seeing a skunk do that. And then two weeks later, there he is again.

[Molly Conger]

Yeah, he's waiting for you. He does not want you to come back.

[James]

Yeah, no, he doesn't. He. He's also trying to, like, exercise control over the public lands in an aggressive.

[Molly Conger]

I was gonna say he's doing land management, and you're not part of it.

[James]

He's returning it to its natural state by keeping European people off the land, which I guess is honestly valid, respectable. He's heard.

[Molly Conger]

He's heard horror stories from his great grandparents.

[James]

Yeah, I can respect that now. I think of it in that way. But, yeah, I've got some good pictures of the back end of him. Well, after he kept doing it, I thought I may as well photograph and document this tendency. So, yeah, I have them. I'm just going to use them for some kind of greetings card or something, but I haven't yet.

[Molly Conger]

Perfect for the family Christmas card, I think.

[James]

Yeah, just keep people on their toes. We've rambled enough.

[Molly Conger]

Okay.

[James]

Yeah. Please send us your wildlife pictures. We would love to see them.

[Molly Conger]

And next week, bears.

[James]

Bears, yeah. Money. Before we go, do you want to plug your podcast about people who probably don't engage with animals very much?

[Molly Conger]

Oh, yeah, you can listen to my show. Weird little guys. I don't think there's been an animal in the show in a while. Although I guess eventually I will get around to those guys that occupied that BLM land.

[James]

But, yeah, yeah, that's it.

[Molly Conger]

But it's that kind of show.

[James]

Yeah, I bet they love wolves. I bet they. I bet they, like, think a lot about wolves even though they don't see them.

[Molly Conger]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a guy who had his username on a Nazi forum. Was the device a wolf? Which is incorrect. German for the white wolf. So, yeah, they do love wolves.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah, I could have guessed. Thank you very much, Molly.

[Molly Conger]

Thank you, James.

[James]

It could happen.

[Molly Conger]

Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in Episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

[Advertisement Voice]

Dish has been connecting communities like yours for the last 45 years, providing the TV you love at a price you can trust. Watch live sports news and the latest movies, plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place. Switch to Dish today and lock in the lowest price in satellite TV starting at 89.99amonth with our two year price guarantee. Call 888-@dish or visit dish.com today.

[Mikey Day]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Who's the worst singer in the group?

[Advertisement Voice]

The worst?

[Mikey Day]

Yeah, me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard you only got in because your parents made a huge donation to the group?

[James]

The Yardbirds, right? That's the name.

[Mikey Day]

The Harvard Yardbird. They're open if you have a name suggestion. We're open since you guys are middle aged. One erection. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I Heart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[James]

Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

[Ashanti Plummer]

Hey, it's Ashanti Plummer from Futt around and find out. This week Az Fudd and I sat down with Stephen Curry. Steph talks pressure, confidence and what it really takes to stay great.

[Basketball Player (Steph Curry's guest)]

There's different categories I guess on like conditioning shooting drills where you try to simulate kind of games. Look at her face. We have a love hate relationship with those because you know you're getting something out of it. You don't look forward to those days.

[Ashanti Plummer]

Listen to Fut around and find out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Podcast Host (Psychology of Your Twenties)]

Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing and and honestly just kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month and the psychology of your twenties is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

I was six years into my career, the 80 hour weeks and just the

[Molly Conger]

first one in, the last one out and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I, like, was just so

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

wanting to, like, be out of that

[Molly Conger]

phase, out of my skin.

[Guest on Psychology Podcast]

And I just, like, really regret not

[Molly Conger]

living in the present more.

[Podcast Host (Psychology of Your Twenties)]

You don't need to have have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[James]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.