← It Could Happen Here
It Could Happen Here
How to Break a Union From the Inside: The NFL Players Association, Pt. 2
00:47:51
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A
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. How much you weigh, Wanda?
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Right now about 130.
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I'm at 183. We should race.
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No, I want to leave here with my original hips. On the podcast the Matchup With Aaliyah,
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I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests. On a recent episode, I sat down with Undisputed boxing champ Clarissa Shields and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie undercard, the Art of Trash
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Talk and what it really means to be ladylike.
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Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the Matchup With Aaliyah and listen now.
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Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner
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of iHeart Women's Sports Network. Hello gorgeous. It's Lala Kent, host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at Sur may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown up vibes. But over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala. You either love or love to hate. It's unruly, it's unafraid, it's untraditionally Lala. Listen to Untraditionally lala on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
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your podcasts on the CNO Show Podcast. Each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trejo talk about addiction, transformation and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Haddish, Johnny Knoxville and more.
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I'm an alcoholic and without this problem, I'm gonna die.
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Listen to Cino's show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
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Cool Zone Media. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about the most unhinged union story I have ever covered. I am your host Mia Wong, and in a moment we will return to my interview with Yahoo sports journalist Charles McDonald. So if you have not listened to the last episode, you should listen to the last episode so we can get you up to the 2000s in terms of the horrifying and depressing story of the NFL Players association leadership gradually selling out more and more of their players. And in this episode, we're going to really sort of get down to the brass tacks of what's been happening in the 2000 and twenties. And answering the question, to what extent has the NFL paid in order to have a pro management regime installed at the head of the union? A question that is really distressingly. We have good evidence of this, but before we can get to that, we need to talk about one of the other absolutely horrifying things that this union regime has done, and that is the union covering up. As reported by Pablo Torre, originally, a report by an arbitration judge about whether or not the independent teams in the NFL, which are supposed to be businesses competing against each other. And I can't emphasize this enough because this is a major portion of how the NFL's antitrust exemption is supposed to work, is that these teams are nominally competing against each other. So there is supposed to be a labor market with competition. But this document that the union covered up from an arbitration process they were in is about. It has very good evidence of the league actively colluding in order to pay players less. And the union covered it up. So here we go back to our interview. Let's talk about this collusion thing, because I've been losing my fucking mind about this for a really long time, and I. I cannot imagine just literally having evidence in your hand that the owners are colluding against your members. Like. Like, these are literally you. Like, this is supposed to be you and you're just hiding the report, dude. Even, like.
- [04:39]
A
Okay, so even if you lose the arbitration. Yeah. The fact that a judge wrote.
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B
Yeah.
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A
In a legal document that it was like, beyond the benefit of a doubt that Roger Goodell and the 32 owners were colluding. We've seen text messages between the Cardinals owner and the Chargers owner talking about how much to pay Justin Herbert.
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B
Yep.
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A
Lamar Jackson.
- [05:03]
B
Yeah. Okay, can we. Can we explain the Lamar Jackson situation and, like, explain who Lamar Jackson is for people who don't watch football so they can understand how other unhinged this is.
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A
Lamar Jackson is a wizard is the best way that I could put it. Lamar Jackson, he is the franchise quarterback for the Baltimore Ravens. And I just think that anyone with a brain could have seen what was going on.
- [05:26]
B
Yeah.
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A
Right. Like, with. With this Situation. So. So. And even before Deshaun, Even. Even before Lamar Jackson, you have to take it back to Deshaun Watson trade out of Houston.
- [05:34]
B
Oh, God. The one trade we've ever covered on this show because.
- [05:39]
A
Yes.
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B
Holy, dude. Oh, my God.
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A
This. This is what got the domino rolling on this stuff. Where as terrible as DeSean Watson is as a football player now, and obviously as a human being.
- [05:51]
B
Yeah. Like, right.
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A
It. When he was in Houston, it feels like a different world, but he was the man. Like, he was incredible. Like, to the point where the Texans, I think his last year starting there, they went 4 and 12, and it was, like, so obviously not his fault. Like, in terms of efficiency, like, he was right behind Patrick Mahomes at the top of the league. Like, he got an apology from J.J. watt that year saying, like, dude, we wasted an absolutely incredible year from you. And then, you know, the 30 accusations of, best, sexual misconduct, at worst, sexual assault in some of those cases.
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B
Yeah. Really hideous shit.
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A
Right? So then it gets to a point where he. Texans, they don't want him there. He doesn't want to be there anymore. But you have what looks to be a franchise quarterback in his mid-20s available for any team to have, you know, with the trade. So my team, Sally, the Atlanta Falcons, they thought that they had a deal done for deshaun Watson, and then the Cleveland Browns came in, and this is where the. Where the ownership, you know, feedback kind of gets broken. Where Jimmy Haslam breaks the ranks and says, I want this guy on my team so bad. You know, this is why, like, nobody ever hits free agency in the NFL. Because this is what it would look like in terms of, like, when owners actually have to bid against each other for elite talent.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Jimmy Haslam comes in and says, here's five years, $230 million. Every single penny will be guaranteed. No stipulations, nothing like that.
- [07:19]
B
Which is, like, not how this works normally. Like, no one gets guaranteed contracts.
- [07:23]
A
Right. And, like, because the. Previously, the. The actual first player to get a fully guaranteed contract from another team was actually Kirk Cousins with the Vikings. When he left Washington, they gave him, like, a little three year. I think it was three years, $88 million fully guaranteed, but still, that ain't five years. 230.
- [07:41]
B
Yeah.
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A
You know? Yeah. And what the owners were mad about was not that you would seek out someone with the personal background, Deshaun Watson, to represent your franchise. It's that you would pay any NFL player $230 million guaranteed. Because now that sets precedent. Because if. If You're Lamar Jackson, whose contract was coming to an end at the season after Deshaun Watson signed this deal. You're like, I didn't touch those women. Yeah, I'm an MVP quarterback. I'm in my 20s. Why shouldn't I get a fully guaranteed contract?
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B
Yep.
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A
Right. Which is what he was doing. And the Ravens, they said, okay, fine, go out into the market. And I felt like I was going insane during this because, oh, my God, there were so many arguments from talking heads about why teams shouldn't sign Lamar Jackson. So he was hit with what's called a non exclusive franchise tag, which means the Ravens, I don't even know how like this, the idea of the franchise tag existing is another labor l hideously anti labor practice. Right. So his contract with the Ravens is over and they can hit him with an exclusive franchise tag, which means you will be playing for us next year. You basically have no say in it unless we remove this or, you know, we work out a trade with somebody else. But you cannot go negotiate with anyone else even though your contract has expired. And yeah, to be quote, unquote, fair, like, the payment is a average of the top five, you know, yearly salaries of the position you play. So you will get paid like, you know, a top five player for one year at your position. It really only goes to, to mostly valuable players that they're trying to extend, but they hit him with a non exclusive franchise tag, which means they have right of first refusal on if another team offers Lamar Jackson a contract. And that team would owe the Ravens two first round picks in order to sign Lamar Jackson. So Deshaun Watson just went for three.
- [09:42]
B
Yeah.
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A
And this, this rule is legally mandated. That is two first round picks. And I'm sure, you know, the Ravens probably ask for a little stuff beyond that, but I only have to give you two first round picks and I can just sign Lamar Jackson.
- [09:54]
B
He's like a generational quarterback. Like.
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A
Right, right, right. At this point, we're talking about a quarterback who was like 25 years old. He's the first unanimous MVP, which he won in his first season as a starter.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Since Tom Brady. He's one of two players in like, or, you know, I don't know if it's two, but it's less than five players in the history of the league that have been unanimous MVPs. Every single person voted for Lamar Dax to be an mvp. And the Ravens said, go ahead and negotiate with another team. And no one, no one even brought him in to talk to him. Right. Like it's unbelievable.
- [10:30]
B
I grew up in Chicago, so like, I grew up with the Bears and my, my family are like a, like a family of like Seahawks fans, right? Neither of those two teams have ever had a quarterback who's in the same stratosphere as this guy. Like, this is right. These guys never like, ever, ever come
- [10:48]
A
available, ever hit three agency, never ever. And this, the people, like, they'll bend the rules to things that aren't written where let's say, oh, you know, the Ravens will just match. Make them match, then. Make them.
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B
That's a competitive advantage for you, right?
- [11:02]
A
Right. I hate that my favorite team keeps popping up in this Atlanta. But, but Arthur Blank, he put his name on it. You guys saying, you know, the Falcons, like they were trying out, you know, backup quarterback, quality guys because after Matt Ryan left, Desmond Ritter, like, Jesus Christ, Marcus Mariota, dude. And, and I'm sitting there like, you're telling me that I can sign Lamar Jackson and I gotta give up two first round picks for him. Like, dude, pay him 60 million guaranteed every year, he's worth that much. And Arthur Blank says, well, you know, Lamar Jackson, he's going to get hurt too much for us to sign him. So, so no, no team signs him, no team even talks to him. So obviously he goes back to the Ravens, doesn't get the fully guaranteed contract that the Sean Watson got and that kind of put an end to it for a little bit until the power of journalism popped up. Polite Torre does his, his investigation, hears about an arbitration hearing about collusion in the NFL and he gets his hands like on the documents that say that while Lamar Jackson was going through his free agency, basically rejection by 31 teams when he would have been an Upgrade for like 28 of them, 29 of them.
- [12:10]
B
Yeah, at the time I would throw a number one like overall rookie quarterback that I just drafted with the first overall pick out the fucking window. Throw him away to get Lamar Jackson.
- [12:22]
A
Right? You can be a part of this. Two first round picks. We're giving you two first round picks. Plus. Yeah, you know, if like at that time, like it may have been like Kyler Murray, something like that. Yeah, take him.
- [12:30]
B
Like, it's, it's unbelievable. Like I, I, I cannot. He, he literally like the game of football is a fundamentally a different game now than it was when, when, when Lamar Jackson like started playing because of him. And it's just like it didn't take him.
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A
His influence on the NFL is so strong that we don't really do the black quarterback talking points anymore. Yeah, because the league was like, oh, we can't let that happen again. Like when Lamar Jackson fell to 32 and everyone's talking about, does he need to play a different position? And in year two, he wins an mvp.
- [12:59]
B
Yeah.
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A
And the year after he signs his deal with the Ravens, he wins his second mvp. Like, that kind of cooled the fans. Like, when you get to see guys like Ken Ward going first overall or even Kyler Murray going first overall and there's no talk about how smart they are as players. Like, that's his influence directly, his success contribute to that. Like, he is a Hall of Fame. It kind of gives me chills. Like, think about, like, what he's accomplished considering, like, what has been stacked against him. Yeah, like he, he is such an important figure for this era of football and really just the whole league, like, on the field and off the field. Like, what he means, like, culturally, in society, for, like, for the chances that black men can get to play a position that deemed, like, they were deemed not to play smart enough because he was so good that they said, we can't look that stupid again. Yeah, this player was available. This player was available in his athletic prime.
- [13:49]
B
Every team could have drafted him. Every single team in the league could have drafted him. And they fucking didn't.
- [13:55]
A
The Ravens passed on him. It's like he was not even the first Ravens draft pick that year. No, they drafted Hayden Hurst 25 overall before they drafted Lamar Jackson. Every single team passed on him. And he's won the MVP. He's one of 11 players in the history of the NFL to win two MVPs. Every. Every other player that has won two or more MVPs is either a Hall of Famer or actively playing Aaron Rodgers and Pat Mahomes. That's it. Like, this guy is a Hall of Famer already.
- [14:20]
B
And he should have won a third, by the way. Like, right, he should have won the third. He was in like, either way, near identical, like, like statistical tie for like a third one.
- [14:28]
A
So yeah, he's first. He's the three time first female pro. He's going to be a Hall of Famer. And the fact that nobody, nobody called him in to say, what, what would it take? Like, what kind of contract are you looking for that. That's where I was like, some, something, something, something is so obviously not right here.
- [14:44]
B
The Colts traded two first round picks for a quarterback.
- [14:48]
A
Like, yes, right. Precisely, precisely.
- [14:51]
B
And like, they're starting a guy who broke his leg and then also his Achilles, like two years later. I was like, I just.
- [14:58]
A
Dude, Jalen Ramsey went for two first round picks and he's a great player, but he's a cornerback. You know, it's not even the same thing.
- [15:04]
B
So this is the most important position in sports, right?
- [15:07]
A
A first ballot hall of Famer was on the market in his prime. Yeah. And nobody talked to him about a contract except the team that owned that, you know, owned like the rights of first refusal. And it was so frustrating to see, like my colleagues in the media say, oh, you know, the Rams were just going to match. That's so disingenuous. Yeah, that's so disingenuous because you're stripping Lamar, like, of his agency as a player one. Like he's better than every other quarterback that just about any team has. It would be such a severe upgrade. And you're also just like holding the line for what? You're not getting a cut of that money. Why are you lying to these people like that? Yeah, but, but Pablo, you know, Paula Turner back, like in his reporting, he found out that a judge agreed with the union, that the players were being colluded against, like actively. Like there's, there's text messages and J.C. treader and Lloyd Howell, they hid this from the union, bro. If, if you're a union and you have, even if you lose arbitration, if you have physical note from a judge that says you were clued against, take your megaphone to the top of the tallest mountain in the world and talk about this. Apply some pressure now. Like, this is where I started. Get curious, like, why, why did this happen? Because that part we still don't have enough information on. Like, like I need to know, like how much, like if there's a kickback going back, like J.C. treader. Yeah. How much is it? And we do know that Lloyd Howe, part of the reason, also part of the reason why he was fired or had to resign was because he along with, he along with former former MLB PA union leader Tony White, who was recently fired for banging his brother's wife, who he hired to work at the ML MLB union.
- [16:44]
B
Oh my fucking God. Yeah. The NFLPA is so lucky that the MLBPA had a scandal that's almost as embarrassing to the Strunk Club. I mean, maybe more.
- [16:53]
A
But Lloyd Howells and Tony White, they were working together as part of an eight man group of like union parasites, like at the top of the corporate ladder in America to siphon money away from the union into their own personal pockets. Like, this is what's running it. You know the famous author Roald Dahl he thought up Willy Wonka and the bfg. But did you know he was a spy? Neither did I. You can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast the Secret World of Roald Dahl. All episodes are out now.
- [17:33]
B
Was this before he wrote his stories?
- [17:35]
A
It must have been.
- [17:36]
B
What? Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy.
- [17:40]
A
Binge all 10 episodes of the Secret World of Roald Dahl now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:48]
B
Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health, because most people out here really care. Find more information@loveyourmindtoday.org that's love your mind today, brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the AD Council.
- [18:19]
A
I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him.
- [18:22]
B
I said, hi, dad.
- [18:24]
A
And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk. This is badass. Convict. Just finished five years. I'm gonna have cookies and milk at mall. Yeah.
- [18:40]
B
On the CNO show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trejo talk about addiction, transformation and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with guests like Tiffany Adish, Johnny Knoxville and more.
- [19:05]
A
I'm an alcoholic and without this probe, I'm gonna die.
- [19:11]
B
Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the Cino show and listen now. Hey there folks. Amy Robach and T.J. holmes here and we know there is a lot of news coming at you these days.
- [19:25]
A
From the war with Iran to the
- [19:27]
B
ongoing Epstein fallout, government shutdowns, high profile
- [19:30]
A
trials, and what the hell is that
- [19:32]
B
Blake Lively thing about? Anyway, we are on it every day, all, all day. Follow us Amy and TJ for news updates throughout the day. Listen to Amy and TJ on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [19:53]
A
We know for a fact Lloyd and Tony White, who's the, you know, baseball union head. What was cuz he no longer has his job or family.
- [20:03]
B
Yeah, bad day for him. But fuck it you brought this upon yourself.
- [20:08]
A
Right. He can't go home for Christmas. He's done. They were part of a small group that was siphoning money away from union funds to line their own pockets. That is verified. They've been sued for that. So what else is going on here? Yeah, what is the incentivization for J.C. treader to push someone like that through? And then the backside is JC's reign as the union president expires while Lloyd Howells the executive director. And Lloyd makes a new cushy role for JC as like, you know, I don't remember what the role was called,
- [20:43]
B
but like he's like chief of Strategy or something.
- [20:46]
A
Yes, Chief Strategy Officer. So something that paid him like $3 million a year very handsomely. Functionally. Lloyd was off, you know, blowing money at the strip club and JC was kind of running like the actual day to day things because he's the one that has a connection to players. Right. And now we've gone through a point where after Gene Upshaw dies, the two executive directors who followed him as, you know, the head of union, Demar Smith and Lloyd Howell, neither of those guys were NFL players. So you can understand how players might feel. We've gotten a little bit too far from our roots. Like we don't have guys who are from our background interested in, you know, players and what we go through. Which leads back to JC Treader, who played for the packers, played for the Browns, was a, was at his peak, man. He was a good player. Like, I'm not going to take that away from like he was a good starting center on a lot of good offensive lines in Cleveland that didn't win any games. But they, they, they blocked the hell out of people, man. Like, like, like when you go back, you look at some of those lines. Like they had Joe Thomas and Alex Mack and Mitchell Schwartz, Joe Antonio, like, like they had some stars that were out there winning four or five games a year. So Lloyd Howell resigns in a mess. JC is still the chief strategy Officer of the nflpa.
- [22:02]
B
I think he resigns eventually from there.
- [22:05]
A
But yes, yes, yes, after Lloyd Howell resigns, JC resigns too. So now, now we're up to last summer, summer 2025.
- [22:12]
B
Yeah.
- [22:13]
A
Eight months ago. Right. It's March 27th. Eight months ago, JC Treader resigns from the chief tragedy officer role that was cut out for him and says he said in an interview to my friend Jonathan Jones, I have no interest in any leadership roles in the union moving forward. He said, I have given this my All I've given this everything I had. I'm going to go home and be a family man. I have no interest in this at all. And it seemed like it until this month when JC Powers back up as one of the finalists for the new executive director role that was previously left by Lloyd Howe. Now this is where it's murky. I don't know, like, all the processes that go on with, like how they decide, like, who's going to, you know, do what. Like, apparently they had 300 candidates. It willed down to three. I asked some players what's going on in the past couple of weeks. They don't know like, how like all this was selected. But they are presented with three finalists for the executive director role to vote on. JC Treader, who has popped up out of nowhere. Then the commissioner of the American Athletic Conference. So like Temple and you know, those east coast schools, like, like James Madison or whatever, like he's overseeing that.
- [23:29]
B
It's like a college football commissioner.
- [23:32]
A
Yeah, like, like, yeah, college football. College football commissioner. Like he's talking to like the president of Rice University about like scheduling games against Toledo or some shit.
- [23:41]
B
Christ.
- [23:41]
A
But so you have J.C. trenor, the American Conference Commissioner. Not even like the ACC, the AAC, right. Fake ass conference. It used to be the Big east. Like they're stolen Big East Valor. This, this guy was running against JC Treader. And also the third was a former Hollywood union exec who didn't really seem to be that interested in the role in the first place. So we get down to the election day and we find out the American Conference commissioner drops out.
- [24:10]
B
Oh, wow.
- [24:11]
A
On, on election day, he drops. Right? Okay, so now, so now we're dealing with. We've had two executive directors back to back. Morris Smith, Lord Howell, not football players. Didn't go well. JC Tretor was a part of that, but he played football. Right. So you see JC Traitor or this Hollywood guy who doesn't give a crap. I forget his name, but his background wasn't like always the cleanest in terms of, you know, actually getting things done in terms of, you know, being pro labor all the time. Ultimately, as fucked up as it is, that's an easy choice if you're a player. These are my two options. I'm gonna take the guy who at least has played football. So you had J.C. tretter, who's now back as the executive director eight months after he said he had no interest in being any type of union leadership.
- [24:58]
B
And like somehow this whole process has to be like stage managed. He's like, back again.
- [25:02]
A
Right. But to me, this linchpin right here is actually the most fascinating part of what's happened. And this is where, like, if you listen to this podcast, it probably won't sound like a conspiracy. If you're not thinking about labor relations in America, it might sound like conspiracy to you, but J.C. treader, when he was the president, like his right hand man, I think it was like the vice president was Jalen Reeves Mabin or was very important. He was a special teams linebacker for the Lions for a long time. He became the Union president after J.C. tretter left and became like the chief strategy officer. So he basically followed in JC Tretor's footsteps as the union president. So while all this shady stuff's going on, Jalen Reeves Maven is an underrated part as the new union president. Because Lloyd was executive director, JC had this new role as the chief strategy officer. But Jalen Reeves Maven is sitting there as the president of, of the union. So obviously he is involved in this somehow. Right. Like, he is involved with like the COVID up for the players.
- [26:04]
B
Yeah.
- [26:04]
A
You know, not being as aggressive as you should be towards ownership in terms of gave up a 17th game dog, like, that's insane. And you, you got nothing back for it. Yeah. So there's a clock, though, in terms of how long you can like, be removed from being a player and still be the NFLPA president. And last year, Jalen Maven, he had been out of the league, so his clock was almost up. I think it's within. Yes. Two years. Two years. So if you follow the league, you're not signing a contract. Like, no one's pursuing you. Like, you kind of just get filed as retired, even if you're not. Even if you have to come out and say, like, I'm retired. Like, there's a bunch of players that never said I'm retired, but nobody, nobody signed them. Like Ty Hilton. Ty Hilton just functionally retired. Like, yeah, two weeks ago. He hasn't played in like five years. Okay. So. But he, he has been placed in a retired file in the NFL as far as just like labeling things go. And if you are retired, if you are labeled as retired, you can't be the NFLPA president. Makes good, perfect sense. So, okay, this, this does not sound crazy to probably the people who listen to this podcast. Right. If you are one of 32 owners, right. And you have this power structure of an organization that you negotiate against the nflpa, this power structure is very friendly towards you. They've given you a lot over the past 15 years since he ripped up the 2006 CBA.
- [27:25]
B
Yeah.
- [27:25]
A
How much would you pay to keep that in place? Right.
- [27:30]
B
Yep.
- [27:30]
A
How much would you pay to keep it in place? And I haven't seen many people talking about this part of it, but. The Chicago Bears signed Jalen Reaves Maybin this fall.
- [27:41]
B
Oh, my God.
- [27:41]
A
Right to a veteran deal. When I looked it up, I think he played like 40 special team snaps for them this season. But that resets his clock. Yeah, that resets his clock. To be president of the union. So now we get to the end of the season.
- [28:00]
B
Yep.
- [28:01]
A
Jalen Reveman runs again to be president. I'm not sure anybody ran against him. No one's told us who the other candidates were.
- [28:10]
B
Yep.
- [28:10]
A
If there were other candidates. And now he's the president of the union again after he was almost barred from it. Does any bear stand remember, like, any play that Jalen Reeves maven made?
- [28:23]
B
No.
- [28:24]
A
Right.
- [28:24]
B
Like, I was. I watched every game of that team. I guess there were like two that I missed for those on planes. But like. No, but.
- [28:32]
A
Okay, but, but. So think about it from this perspective. If you are an owner and you have this power structure that is generating billions capital B. Billions of dollars back in your direction away from the people that they represent. Yeah. Would it be worth $500,000? Keep that going in a little roster spot at the bottom. Absolutely. Now, that's a part that I haven't seen people bring up as much because we get stuck on Treader. But Treader's right hand man was almost ineligible to be the president of the nflpa. And he pops up in this little role when it looks like his career's over. Like they signed him late in the season to play special teams.
- [29:13]
B
Yep.
- [29:13]
A
You just bump up someone from the practice squad to go do that because. Because you want guys that you've already, you know, developed a relationship, guys you've started. You started training and working with to get those reps. Some outside guy like, coming in to play special teams that, you know, that's. It's unnecessary. It's unnecessary.
- [29:30]
B
It's been out of the league too. Like.
- [29:32]
A
Yeah.
- [29:32]
B
There's no reason to do it unless
- [29:36]
A
you as a power structure are interested in him having eligibility to keep funneling you money.
- [29:41]
B
Yep.
- [29:42]
A
At expense of the players.
- [29:43]
B
Yeah.
- [29:44]
A
And I've really changed my tune, like, on players not carrying over the past month just from. From talking to guys. Like, because I used to cover the jets and the Giants like, for newspaper here in New York City. Like, this is what I've done for the past 10 years. I've met a lot of guys. They are like furious because you're like, what is this mechanism. Yeah. That is allowing you guys to operate with so much secrecy where you have J.C. treader. I mean, shout out to like the people who ran against him or were there for a minute, but functionally, like practically, he ran unopposed for the executive director role. And so you whittle it out from 300 candidates to three.
- [30:23]
B
Yeah.
- [30:24]
A
And one of them is JC Treader and the other is the commissioner of like the sixth most important college football conference in the country. And then a Hollywood movie. Like you need an exec guy. I mean that's, that's, that's functionally unopposed. And then with Jalen Reeves Maiden, we don't even know if anyone ran against him. So these guys are just walking back into power.
- [30:46]
B
Yep.
- [30:46]
A
And the question that I and players and other journalists have, what is that mechanism that is operating in the shadows that is allowing this to happen and how much is it worth? Because now we're coming up on a new CBA negotiation where they're probably going to get an 18th game. An 18th like you, you have gone from, in 20 years, you've gone from a spot where you had revenue majority, even if it wasn't the 60%. It was 52, 53. That's better than 47. And the literal death of Gene Upshaw, it like killed this union in a way that I don't know if it's recoverable from. Because you set a precedent over two CBAs likely to be three that you will give up anything. For what though?
- [31:36]
B
Yeah, for nothing.
- [31:37]
A
But for what? Like, like Roger Goodell should never be coming out and saying, I'm glad that J.C. treader was named the executive. Like J.C. tretter should be a pain in his ass.
- [31:47]
B
No.
- [31:48]
A
And, and it, it just, it's sad to me, like, as someone like who, like I love the sport so much and to see like what's happening to the union, it's horrible because ultimately, like we're so short sighted that you know, what, what's happening from me, like right, right now or today is the only thing that matters. But like there's going to be real consequences for these guys for decades. And man, like I remember my first year covering the jets in the Giants for the Daily News up here in New York was 2019 and the jets had a legends day. Like we're a bunch of guys that came back and they were on it during halftime. For crappy teams do when you have Nothing to talk about. Then you talk about, talk about the good old days, right? Yeah, but you know these guys that come up and they were hanging out with us in the press box before they went down on the field at halftime. These are like 50 year old men, like on canes and stuff like that. Like, like my dad's 60 and he still shoots hoops sometimes like at the gym. Yeah, these are like 45, 50 year old men that they can't walk without assistance. They're like, they walk around like, and they're forgetting, like, oh, what I just turned this corner to do. Like all the time. Like you're talking to them and you have to keep reminding, like refresh, like refresh them on the, on, on what we were talking about. As if it's like chat GPT, you know, like in. And it's sad, but when you see like, like the material restrictions that these guys have in their own lives post playing and these guys, like, they're not all rich, like they're just normal people. It's, it's sad that this union has capitulated to the owners for such a violent job.
- [33:15]
B
Yeah.
- [33:15]
A
And, and sure, like you can say like, you know, no one's telling you to be a football player, but that's the only option a lot of these guys have, like to go be football players and to go put their body on the line just so their family can live in comfort for a few years. It's sad.
- [33:31]
B
Yeah, it's like, it's the actual poverty draft. It hits way, way, way more people than the military does. Like significantly more. And I think it's something that's really, really, really badly understood on the left because like, people on the left tend not to care about sports stuff. But it's like football is a structural part of the entire American economy. It's a structural part of the entire American educational system. Like half of the educational system is designed to funnel people into this sport specifically so these people can make fucking money off of it.
- [33:58]
A
Yes.
- [33:59]
B
And that stuff shapes everything.
- [34:01]
A
And I understand, like why lefties, like, they don't care about sports. I get it. But if the NFL were to cease existing tomorrow, that would be like a major collapse within the U.S. economy. Yeah, like, I'm not, I'm not joking. Basically everything you watch, especially now, is subsidized by some NFL game, right? Like, yeah, that's, that's why these companies exist. If you, if you go back every single year and you look at the top 100 most watched TV shows of the year, 97 of them will be NFL games and you'll have like two college football games and like the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.
- [34:38]
B
Yeah. Maybe like maybe the World Series. Like.
- [34:40]
A
Right, maybe the World Series. Like. Right. Maybe the Oscars can get like maybe the Oscars versus like jets, bills, like week 12. That's not close.
- [34:49]
B
Like they're all shit on a Thursday night. Like. Right.
- [34:53]
A
But that's how big this is. And I would implore people to not say, hey, who cares about this? It's important. And also like there's, there's, there's also just like clear, like you look at a game, there's clear racial divides. Yeah. And who has to play this game and who doesn't have to play this game? There are studies that show that like upwards of 80% of black boys who play sports want to be professional athletes. I mean, because that's, that's it really. Like, it's that. Yeah. Or I'm gonna go do. I don't fucking know. And those are really your options. And that's why I say, like, I've used the NFL to kind of figure out my way, like through, you know, how I feel about things. Because there's such real like desperation from these people to get out. And the problem like also with the union is like, let's say like some of these guys come from nothing. Like the fact that they could figure out a way to get to a bus that would take them to a school where they could play football is like a major accomplishment.
- [35:49]
B
Yeah.
- [35:49]
A
In their own. And the fact that you can go from that to making $300,000 in a year at 21, that will distort you as well. Because now you've made such an extreme jump so fast, probably going to be a little bit complacent. You might not be thinking about what's next because, and I say this for like a 21 year old person, you spent the last 20 years of your life fucking fighting, like just to get to the next day. I remember one of the craziest things was back in the day, like when Laramie Tunsil was at Ole Miss, like back when they got busted before the nil stuff going out. There's this text thread between Laramie Tunnel's old line coach and his mom saying like, hey, like, can you send money for the light bill this month?
- [36:29]
B
Yeah.
- [36:30]
A
He's a five star starter. Yeah. On your team that is generating millions of dollars.
- [36:36]
B
Yep.
- [36:36]
A
And you could get in trouble for sending his mom like 200 bucks to keep the lights on.
- [36:40]
B
Yeah.
- [36:40]
A
You know, there's a, there's a real like, systemic like obvious extraction of value from these black men. And yeah, once it's over, they say good luck, get until, you know, we have like the CTE lawsuit where they, they pay out billions of dollars. But ultimately you just kind of come in and get discarded, which is why this union is so important. And the fact that you can be JC Treader, use the trust that you have earned through your own blood, sweat and tears of being an NFL player and good enough to stand on your own as like a almost a decade long NHL starter. The fact that you would use that and turn around and like just capitulate to owners, like, that's scum.
- [37:19]
B
Hideous.
- [37:20]
A
It's scum. And it's, it's, it's sad and just everyone here deserves better except for the people at top.
- [37:26]
B
Yeah.
- [37:27]
A
And there needs to be some answers on why are you guys doing this. They're not doing it for no reason. There has to be something there. That's the part that we don't know.
- [37:46]
B
One thing I want to kind of go back to for a second is like how they're able to do this. I don't know the exact mechanisms of how they specifically have been able to do this because every union is structured like kind of differently. But this is something that's actually unfortunately like pretty common in even sort of like progressive unions where. Yeah, you know, like we, we've had people on this show a few times who were trying to dislodge this clique that used to run. Actually, I'm not sure if they're still running it, but they, they used to run the big nurses union, like a huge portion of the country's nurses. And so. Okay, one, one of the problems here is that like union elections, even if they're well publicized, even if you are trying to get everyone to vote, have really, really low turnout. Members, unless they're really engaged, do not pay attention to it. Yeah. And that's not even really engaged in the sense of engage in union activities because even most people who like, are really engaged in like, I want to go on strike or like I want to, I'm going to show up to this like contract session. Aren't voting in the, in the union elections because no one knows it's happening. No one knows who any of the candidates are. It's, it's, no one cares. It's like, it's an, it's an even more extreme version of the problem with like no one voting in regular elections. And so with A really small amount of votes. You can just get you and your faction installed for generations, right? Like, there are admin caucuses in a whole bunch of unions. Like, we're talking about, like. Like the Teamsters and, like, with unions on that scale were like, yeah, there was. It was a huge deal when the Teamsters, like, finally ran out their admin caucus. But, like, these people. These people are in power for half a century. These people are in power for, like, generations of these guys are able to stay in these unions. And they're able to do it because it's really, really easy to control union elections, especially once you're in power. And this is something like I've talked about on this fucking show. Like, I have seen union staffers whose job it is to do organizing get fired for telling their own members to read a contract they were. They were being asked to vote on because that was considered a threat to the power base, right? And the problem is, is that once you're running the union, you control the jobs of all of the staff beneath you. And one of the things that actually came out in Pablo Torres reporting is that they offered anyone who'd been at the unit for more than seven years a buyout. And so, you know, you can watch them do, like, they're doing a systemic purge of all of this stuff. And then, like, the moment Shredder is, like, leading the search, right? He. He's able to use his position, like, his very specific position in this bureaucracy, like, as a president of the union, to, like, go change the terms of the search so that it's no secret and you can just keep using whatever. Every position you take over gives you a little bit more sort of bureaucratic power that you can use to rat people. And once they're in, it's like, it is possible to dislodge them. Like, I mean, this is something that happened with. With the UAW in the last. Like, that was 2020. 2023. They got in and they dislodged an admin caucus that had been in power and, like, doing similar shit to this for, like, decades and decades and decades. And so it is possible for, you know, reform caucuses inside the union to organize and drive the leadership out. But it's really hard. And the moment you start doing that, like, every single person who's anyway, affiliated with you will get targeted for retaliation by the union.
- [40:55]
A
And yes, that. That's what has happened. Yeah. With J.C. treader again, Pablo Tory, he released an interview two weeks ago with, you know, longtime security officer who was Basically one of the people who was like, hey, yeah, what's going on here with this JC Treader and Lloyd Howell stuff? And they fired him for that. Like the union fired this security guy who've been working like he been working there since like Dean Upshaw was working there. So he, he's part of the old guard that is there for like the material, like improvement of players lives like as far as they can take it without, you know, dealing with the real bounds of like we got to kind of get this done before the season or our worker base is going to be harmed. Like those guys don't really work there anymore. Yeah, someone like Dominique Fox where this, he like he's on TV now, you know, And I know like he cares a lot about this, but he's off doing different things. And I think another thing that, that's tough, like when you look back at like, okay, who is playing football, these are ultimately young men who like they enter this union without any knowledge of like how unions work. Like what are the finances behind any of this. You're geared to take like your high school free time and your college free time, especially now that these colleges are throwing out cash. Like you are honed to care about football and get football done. And you know, once we get to college, like we'll see what it is. Hopefully you can get your degree and keep it moving. But most of the time, like these guys, they don't know what any of this stuff is. So you have like this very uninformed, you know, labor force that's getting churned out two, three years at a time. It would probably be pretty easy, honestly to create a blockade of knowledge when the people who could be asking you about this are going to be irrelevant if you just hold the lines for a year. You know, it's sad.
- [42:42]
B
The other thing about this, right, is that these guys don't have even the basic incentive that even like the UAW and their most entrenched had, which is like, if you fuck this up enough, there won't be a union. But it's like these guys, there's always going to be something called the NFL Players association, right? Because the NFL needs it for cover, which means they don't even have to do the minimal organizing work or like even the minimal, like pretending to actually fight for the people who are supposed to be the union because it doesn't matter to them. Like why the fuck would they, why the fuck would they try to onboard new people like into the union and like get them involved? Like why do they Care. They can just fucking go home and, like, cash their checks and get whatever the fuck benefits they're getting from the league for doing this shit.
- [43:23]
A
Yeah, Yeah, I want to know. Those benefits are. I just want to know.
- [43:28]
B
Yep, me too. I would love.
- [43:30]
A
Like, really. Because when it gets down to, like, how much is your soul worth, man?
- [43:33]
B
Yeah.
- [43:33]
A
Like, JC is. Is one of those guys ultimately who has made enough money playing football where he doesn't have to do this.
- [43:39]
B
Yeah.
- [43:40]
A
You know, he doesn't have to go around like this. Like, it's. It's a little baffling in that sense. Like, and. And I know that, like, I guess something I guess I struggle with sometimes. Like, why are y' all doing this fucked up shit? Like, why? Like, it. It's really like that, Like, a couple more bucks really means that much to you? Like, you're really willing to sell out all these people? Like, the answer is yes.
- [44:00]
B
Yep.
- [44:00]
A
The answer is yes. Personally, I can't really reconcile that. Yeah, it's abhorrent. It's terrible. But it's just the truth of the matter. So hopefully they can figure out a way to. To kind of dismantle this. But, like, man, even the fact that, like, man, you got like, the Bears, they. They signed Jalen, Reeves, Maiden, all of a sudden, like, his clock's back and now you have the same power structure as you hit another landmark where you're going to be negotiating for 18 games. That's a tough thing to topple over, man. That's a tough thing to get past. It's really difficult. Yeah, he did Arby's actually don't do that. Arby's not good.
- [44:35]
B
No, it's just. Well, I. I think that's a decent point to sort of end on, unless you have any. Yeah. Do you have anything else you want to make sure people know about this whole thing?
- [44:48]
A
I would say, like, if you're not watching football, you should. It's a great game. I. Look, I say this as someone. Football has, like, materially harmed me. Like, my back is messed up. I've had two herniated discs, my back, since I was 17. I turned 32 this year. It's like half my life, you know? Would I do it again?
- [45:07]
B
Yeah.
- [45:10]
A
I don't know. I don't. I don't know. And like, this. This is where, like, my, My. Like, the people who know me, they, like, man, you're wired a little differently, but I think that's standard for football players. Like, it's a really complicated relationship. But, like, all my Best friends are still, like, football related in some way, whether it's college or journalism now or, you know, going back to high school back in the day. Like, I still talk to so many people that I played football with. Like, I'm watching, like, I'm the guy watching these, like, crappy, like, Division 2 games, like, on a. On a Friday night. It's. Yeah, it's awesome. So, like, you know. Yeah, you should check out Lamar Jackson. Like, just go on YouTube, just look up a highlight, and then he's great. It's.
- [45:51]
B
It's wild.
- [45:52]
A
Like, you know, when you. When you've, like, watched football or really any of these sports, like, they are just inescapable. I hate to even say microcosms of, like, American society because, like, this is obviously Americans. This is. This is American society. Like, when you just look on the influence that football has on, like, the economy as a whole and the way that people who are less fortunate are able to be extracted and run into the ground and forgotten even by the people who are supposed to protect them. Yeah. I think that's something that we see here just about every arena of American life. So I would just implore some of our fellow lefties, don't be the. Who cares about sports? Because whether you know about it, sports is interacting and directly impacting your life in this country every single day. And I think it's important to kind of care about some of the labor practices that are going on. Even if, you know, the labor practices are around Lamar Jackson getting paid, you know, $60 million a year, over $50 million a year. But it's still. It's still important.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah. You know, and I think there's. I think there's two. There's two points I can make there. One is that, like. Yeah, I don't know. Like, it was. It was. It was the fucking, like, trans women in college sports thing was like, one of the two avenues through which, like, oh, wait, hold on. A bunch of us just don't have fucking rights now.
- [47:12]
A
Yeah.
- [47:12]
B
And, you know, and like. And that kind of, like, cultural stuff comes out of places that we're just not usually.
- [47:20]
A
Right. Right. And just to tack onto that, as we've seen over the past few months, and as many dangered and misrepresented and punched down communities have said to y' all forever. And I say this as a black person, if they do it to us, we'll do it to you at some point.
- [47:40]
B
Yep. Yep.
- [47:41]
A
It's just sad that, like, we've gotten to the point where, you know, You've been fighting and screaming for so long, like, bro, could you just turn your head this way and just look? Yeah, you see? Like, bro, like, we're the same, man. We're all just humans out here trying to make it. That thought process is just so violently opposed by the powers that be. And it's just so ingrained in our society, like, certain people have to get stepped on that you will let yourself get stepped on. And now, yeah, we got videos of, you know, people getting executed in the street in Minneapolis. And what's happened? Nothing. Just like every other police shooting, you know, of a black person or a trans person getting killed, like, yeah, nothing happened, and nothing keeps happening. And ultimately we get to a point where that's just the norm. So, shit, there's a lot of stuff to fight. But you can even see, like, how the NFL union has kind of followed that same, like, deterioration.
- [48:34]
B
Yep.
- [48:35]
A
Shit. You know, go back to the 2011 CBA. You threw the rookies under the bus, and then what the owners do, they came and took your money, too. Yeah, right. And then when it came down to, you know, 2020 CBA, you guys have set such a precedent of us running your pockets that we will set the hard, non negotiable stance of an extra football game, and you will capitulate. That's everywhere, man. That. That is everywhere in the corporate structure in life of America. So, yeah, yeah. Sports inescapable. Check out Lamar Jackson on Sundays. It's good stuff.
- [49:06]
B
Yeah. I think, I think the. I think the one last thing I want to say is that, you know, the Reform caucus taking over the UAW was something that was seen as impossible. Like, it was like, literally. I mean, like, every union has a reform caucus. They normally lose every single time, and then one day they won. And it, like, completely changed what the labor movement in America is. And, you know, the thing. The thing about organizing reform caucuses is that I know the people who organize these things. Like, they're just random people.
- [49:35]
A
Yeah.
- [49:35]
B
Like, any. Anyone can do this. This is. This is not something that requires, like, you know, an incredibly specialized skill set. You can just do it. And I've watched, like, actual teenagers do this shit, watching people and how tenaciously they could fight and watching them win. That that's how I get out of bed in the morning is. Is. I, I, I have. I have seen the hope in how. How people can fight fights that are just unwinnable, that are so unfathomable that most people don't even think there's a point in fighting it. And then one day they win.
- [50:09]
A
Yeah.
- [50:09]
B
And maybe one day.
- [50:12]
A
Well, I mean, I mean, even if you just think about the basis of the NFL pause now, it's an antitrust blocker. Right? That's what it is now. But the roots of it, yeah, they were guys trying to get rights for. They're trying to get paid for the amount of time that they put into this job. One of the base like complaints is when the league was smaller and you had like kind of other leagues, you know, that are defunct now or were absorbed by like the AFC or the NFC before it all emerged to the NFL. One of the basises was the NFL owners would ban you if you played in another league. Like if you spent any time playing another league, they would ban you for five years, man. That's your whole career. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I don't know if this made the show or if we were talking about before the show, but one of the things that got the NFLPA like organized in the 50s was guys were doing training camp and preseason games for free. They weren't getting paid for it like, but, but these are just regular men who are just like, fuck it, I'm tired of this.
- [51:09]
B
Yeah.
- [51:10]
A
And sadly it's been co opted into something that does not represent what it was before. But you know, this stuff is started by regular people who are saying, fuck it, I'm tired of this. We got to make a change.
- [51:20]
B
Yeah. And I think on that note, where can people find your work?
- [51:25]
A
Yeah, you can find me on bluesky4verts. You can find me on Yahoo Sports Football 301 podcast. Trying to be found a little bit less these days.
- [51:35]
B
That's so reasonable.
- [51:37]
A
The blue sky is pretty confined for the most part. Yeah. You know, just a little less.
- [51:42]
B
I, I get there's a reason, there's a reason I'm not putting my handle in here.
- [51:48]
A
Yeah. But I will say this is not necessarily a friendly blue sky count. I'm not one of those guys who's just going to let you pop off. You know, we do clap back around here.
- [51:58]
B
It rocks. It rocks. We do in fact, love the sea.
- [52:02]
A
Yeah.
- [52:07]
B
It could happen. Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.
- [52:10]
A
For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media,
- [52:12]
B
Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you
- [52:21]
A
can now find sources for. It could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.