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- [00:00]
Robinson Meyer
This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.
- [00:04]
DJ Hester Prynne
When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?
- [00:07]
Robinson Meyer
Biggie.
- [00:08]
DJ Hester Prynne
You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.
- [00:10]
Robinson Meyer
Because I want to get confident.
- [00:11]
DJ Hester Prynne
This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music Is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist. 12 months, 12 areas of your life. Money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:37]
Robinson Meyer
Media. Sweet baby Jiminy Christmas. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a podcast that's normally about all of the sad and horrifying and violent and dangerous and sometimes inspiring things happening around the world. But this week, well, today is about something different. Today we're talking about ces. Finally, for those of you who don't know or who are new to the show, every year in Las Vegas, Nevada, a bunch of the world's big tech companies come together for the Consumer Electronics show, where they present their visions for the future. The new products that will be coming out that year and stuff that will be coming out in years to come that's less developed. And the whole industry talks about itself, and Garrison and I show up and largely just kind of let it wash over us like a. Like a. A warming tide of lukewarm garbage water.
- [01:34]
Garrison Wells
You know, very lukewarm.
- [01:36]
Robinson Meyer
Usually very lukewarm. And it smells like someone did not clean their fridge out often enough before putting it into the trash.
- [01:43]
Garrison Wells
That was the feeling at Showstoppers tonight.
- [01:45]
Thomas Reniz
The.
- [01:47]
Garrison Wells
The media only presentation on the finest products of ces.
- [01:51]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah. Yeah. Why don't we start? So, I mean, there's two different things that are interesting about ces, broadly. One of them is people bring gadgets that are not out yet that will be coming out this year or coming out soon, and you can actually test them and use them and see how technology is progressing. And that can be kind of fun. The downside of that is that people also bring gadgets that are crap, right? Some guy has a vision for a way to, like, you know, there's not a good way for blind people to use the pogo stick while watching Netflix. And so I have created this product, right? Or, like, there's not a good way for children to test their blood alcohol level before getting behind the wheel of a Jeep Grand Cherokee. And I have. I have invented the device to make it pop. Things that, like, have no. No conceivable audience or utilization, right? That's the other side of the gadget part of ces. And then outside of that, you get a hint at, like, there's all these panels where people from the industry come to talk about the major trends in technology, how things are developing and what they see as the future. And so there's both. Here's what they're gonna try to sell us, and here's the devices that might change the way we live. And also here's how a bunch of the richest, sometimes craziest people in the country are talking about the future. Those are the two things that happen at CES and Garrison. You wanted to talk about the first.
- [03:07]
Garrison Wells
The gadgets.
- [03:08]
Robinson Meyer
The gadgets.
- [03:09]
Garrison Wells
The gadgets. 1.
- [03:10]
Robinson Meyer
Because you went to the Gadget show tonight. I spent my entire day in panels.
- [03:13]
Garrison Wells
Yeah, I mean, I did mostly panels in the day. I didn't really get to walk the show floor on the first day, which is. Which is Tuesday. So instead of doing the show floor, I went to Showstoppers at the Bellagio, which is this, this presentation of usually, usually, you know, a collection of gadgets that have won CES Innovation awards, which are on display for, for journalists and media. You can talk to the people behind them. Showstoppers. This year was a little different. It took place in like a. In like a different venue hall. It was smaller than the past few Showstoppers years, and I would say about 40% of it was smart glasses.
- [03:51]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, there's usually like a big product that is like this product category is the hot thing this year.
- [03:57]
Garrison Wells
We've tried on smart glasses every year.
- [03:59]
Robinson Meyer
That's what's weird about it, is that they've always had them.
- [04:01]
Garrison Wells
Every year that we've been doing this, we've done smart glasses, and they've always kind of been the same. Maybe the resolution on, like, the texture gets a little bit better. Like the glasses get a little bit smaller. And this year, yeah, the glasses were generally smaller, but for all practical purposes, function about the same. But There was about 10 different smart glasses. Most of them could do some kind of, like, transcription service, could have some kind of heads up display. One of them was just audio only. It was like an audio audio transcription. So, like, it listens to someone else speaking in, in this case, Chinese, and it would translate to me to American. Yeah, yeah, translate to American via sound. It had speaker. It had speakers in, like, the actual, you know, like the arm of the glasses. Yeah, the delay was long enough that it was. You couldn't really keep a conversation up.
- [04:44]
Robinson Meyer
At normal speed would be ideal. It would be for, like, Unlike the.
- [04:47]
Garrison Wells
Visual translations, which you can actually kind of just talk in real time. But the audio only ones were like a smaller profile. The visual ones weren't necessarily bulkier, but you could definitely see that there's more hardware inside them. Yeah. The thing that I have seen this year, which is newer, maybe not totally new, but incorporating smart glasses technology into other types of eyewear. So like swim goggles. Right. Ski goggles and like outdoor sports stuff. So if you're, you know, swimming or you're diving and you can't really use your phone underwater, you have, there's, there's a heads up, there's a heads up display in like your scuba goggles. So that, that's, that's a new, a newish thing that I've seen, I've seen like, you know, biking glasses, skiing, snowboarding. So that's the kind of one, one slight change. But besides that, it's basically five different smart glasses which are for all practical purposes identical to each other.
- [05:41]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, I mean, and that I think is kind of one of the things that I've watched happen over the 15 years almost that I've been going to CES or cess, whichever is more accurate, which is, you know, when I first started coming, the smartphone era was new and then we had like the tablet era after that. And so there was a lot of like, you would have dozens of manufacturers making different devices and every year they were very different capability. For the first few years, smartphones were out advanced very rapidly and that was really exciting. And the convention really thrived on that as the number of new device categories have winnowed down. And the difference, like, I'm not excited when I get a phone anymore. Neither is anyone I know because it's.
- [06:21]
Garrison Wells
Like, no, usually I'm actually kind of more sad.
- [06:24]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, yeah. The only thing that's exciting is like, well, my old phone was literally not working anymore. Yeah, I have a phone that works.
- [06:29]
Garrison Wells
The battery has been completely destroyed.
- [06:30]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, the battery works now or whatever. But it's not like the cameras are not see changes better. Generally nothing is like you're not getting a lot more out of it than you used to. And the same is true of like laptops, graph, I mean, graphics cards, just because of the data center crunch. Like that's not nearly as exciting a technology category for consumers as it used to be. So this stuff is just like less, less sexy. And yeah, it just kind of shows that we're at a point where kind of one of the only spaces where they are still improvements and where there's a lot of competition in the market is smart glasses.
- [07:03]
Garrison Wells
Yeah, I mean that's like the wearables category in general which was mentioned. I went to the Consumer Technology association like keynote panel this morning, which is the group that puts on CES and they mentioned only, only a few products but, but one of them were, were smart glasses and then also like wearables in general, like AI powered wearables and how like wearable technology, you know like smart watches, rings, necklaces, whatever are going to make like a big comeback now that, now that AI is a lot is a lot more intelligent than it used to be. In particular at the ces like big keynote Tuesday morning, you mentioned a Persona, Smart tutor glasses glasses to help you, you know, while learning. I haven't been able to check out the product yet, but they kind of remind me of some of the concept behind those cluly glasses that you may have seen on social media a few months ago.
- [07:55]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, yeah.
- [07:55]
Garrison Wells
The glasses that help you like cheat.
- [07:56]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah. But also somebody who's like we should.
- [07:59]
Garrison Wells
Embrace people cheating and cheat just in a conversation. It seems like that product isn't necessarily as real as what the video might make it out to be.
- [08:08]
Robinson Meyer
The people whose company was based on lying didn't make a real product.
- [08:13]
Garrison Wells
While walking through Eureka park today, it's funny, I also saw this, this product and one of like the national pavilions, I think it was the one of like the Japan Tech pavilions. This AI powered tool to help to help prevent cheating while test taking. So you have AI powered tools that will monitor you to make sure you're not cheating while you use an AI powered tool to help cheat at the same time.
- [08:35]
Robinson Meyer
Better at school. Yeah.
- [08:36]
Garrison Wells
That's kind of just a good representation of kind of where, where this whole industry is at at the moment.
- [08:40]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah.
- [08:41]
Garrison Wells
In some ways I think know this is probably what year three of AI being, you know, the big thing, whether that's on wearables, you know, whether, whether that's smart glasses, whether that's you know, a generative AI, whether that's AI, you know, in.
- [08:54]
Robinson Meyer
But it's been many other forms.
- [08:56]
Garrison Wells
AIs been like, been like you know, the additive property for, for everything. And I. Some of that might be starting to kind of tucker out or at least the. They've taken the victory lap and there's there's a certain like, you know, like cultural victory that, that they're resting on where they're starting to put some of their eggs in other baskets now which certainly wasn't the case last Year, No.
- [09:18]
Robinson Meyer
And I got a sense. I attended six panels today.
- [09:22]
Garrison Wells
Congratulations.
- [09:22]
Robinson Meyer
It was a mix of like advertising people, entertainment, associated people, some journalism associated people and robotics. People in robotics talking about a lot of.
- [09:32]
Garrison Wells
A lot of robotics.
- [09:33]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah. What they saw as the future of AI, and there was a lot of focus first on AI is not going to be taking jobs as much as it's going to be augmenting jobs. Right. Although you would get the occasional person be like, AI is going to take a lot of jobs.
- [09:46]
Garrison Wells
I got people saying that it's only going to take jobs if you don't know how to incorporate AI into your workflow.
- [09:52]
Robinson Meyer
And that's the argument I saw at the moment.
- [09:54]
Garrison Wells
Right now, if you're not using AI, you're at greater risk of you losing.
- [09:59]
Robinson Meyer
So you better get on it right.
- [10:01]
Garrison Wells
Now, start learning it. Yeah.
- [10:03]
Robinson Meyer
Yes. And then the other thing is there was a lot of like, it's there to help or take away unpleasant tasks from workers, but really emphasizing the it's not your enemy thing. You don't need to be scared. And I had quoted like half of these panels, people would quote statistics about low user trust in AI and the fact that people are generally not super comfortable with this technology, even if they use it in parts of their, their work life. Right. Or daily life. And so what I saw from that, what I interpret from that is that there is internal concern that like, that's one of the things that could screw the pooch on this, is that people are not really sure they like this stuff. And so there's this impulse to kind of COVID the softer and fuzzier sides of it that I didn't see in previous years. And I think is really focusing on this is just making things you already like better as opposed to this is a revolution that's completely changing life.
- [10:59]
Garrison Wells
And to the extent where AI was framed as revolutionary, it was specifically trying to ground it in like, physical applications as opposed to this, like more general, kind of like spectral, like, AI hype that we've seen the past few years, which specifically around like generative AI, right? Where it's like this like kind of vague thing that we like gesture to. There's more specific applications for AI being talked about right now. And they talked, talked about like AI assisted manufacturing simulations, like digital twins of.
- [11:29]
Robinson Meyer
Factories, shipyards, power plants, lot of digital twin talk.
- [11:33]
Garrison Wells
Building, you know, digital replicas of like, everything, you know, of like, society to like run these simulations to both make AIs smarter, to generate new solutions outside of the limitations of a language model. And also find, you know, potential problems in, you know, when you build these things physically.
- [11:50]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, that was something that was brought up during the robotics panel, which was talking about how to like take the machine learning technology and other things that are generally grouped under AI and apply it in the physical world.
- [12:01]
Garrison Wells
Yeah, manufacturing. I've heard so much, right, in just one day. I've heard the word manufacturing more today than I have. It's been more focused in every CES I've been to previously combined and I.
- [12:14]
Robinson Meyer
Think consciously more focused on industrial applications than on consumer technology because there's not that much new to give the consumer right. And they are also, I think, starting to recognize that you can get people using ChatGPT and the like, but they're mostly not using it. And the data backs this up. People are mostly using it at work and for school and Gen Z a lot. There's a lot of people who are doing like their research on like what to buy and whatnot through using ChatGPT. But there's not a lot that you can sell people in CES because it's an app and there's not a ton of different devices for it. People are using it on their phone, they're using it on their computer. But like none of the new phones and computers are markedly better at using ChatGPT or another, you know, chatbot thing than any of the others. So there's not a lot that's sexy in just that at ces. So I think there I, I have seen this conscience reforming around people in manufacturing and people who are like, thinking of the concerns of like, I have a pair like an exoskeleton to test this week that's seeing a lot of its business in folks who are like doing like Amazon type jobs, right? Loading and unloading packages and whatnot all day long, you know, And I do see a conscious reforming there, which I think is kind of evidence of like, there's almost an admission that like, yeah, we don't really have that much to hand consumers anymore on a yearly basis.
- [13:35]
Garrison Wells
Speaking of handing things to consumers ads.
- [13:46]
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- [14:15]
DJ Hester Prynne
When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?
- [14:18]
Robinson Meyer
Biggie.
- [14:19]
DJ Hester Prynne
You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.
- [14:20]
Robinson Meyer
Because I want to get confident.
- [14:21]
DJ Hester Prynne
This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music Is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question. Who do you want to be and what's the song that can take you there? Music changes what you feel, and what you feel changes what you do. Right that moment where a song shifts something inside you, that's where transformation starts. This year I'm talking to experts across every area of life, like personal finance icon Gene Chatky, New York Times journalist David Gellis, relationship legend Dan Savage, human connection teacher Mark Groves, and the man who shaped my ear more than anyone, Questlove. They'll bring the strategies. I'll pair them with the right records and will teach you how to use the music to make change stick. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [15:16]
Ad Voice
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- [16:12]
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- [17:17]
Robinson Meyer
So the first panel I went to of the day was about the funnel, which, as I understand it, is just kind of like the way in which people have traditionally engaged with, like, media, gotten advertised to and then, like, gone to stores and bought stuff like the funnel by which you, like, make a customer and how that's been completely blown up now. Right. And AI is like a further massive disruption because people are not like. People are increasingly, especially very young people, which was pointed out in a number of. These are like, buying stuff that a chatbot recommends them. Right. And so a lot of marketing is being seen as being done through. How do you get the chatbot to talk about you a certain way? What is the SEO of getting chatgpt?
- [18:01]
Garrison Wells
Oh, that's interesting.
- [18:02]
Robinson Meyer
Like, right. There's a lot of talk about it.
- [18:04]
Garrison Wells
As someone who's not a regular chatbot user, which I'm sure most people here would chastise me for not maximizing my. Of productivity.
- [18:11]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, I've been meaning to get onto.
- [18:12]
Garrison Wells
You for that, Garrison, but as someone who's not. Who's not a regular chatbot user, I've never thought of that before. Yeah, I mean, like, I know people use these chatbots as a replacement for search engines, but the idea of, like, trying to, you know, evaluate purchases is. I mean, I guess that makes sense now, but I've never put that together.
- [18:29]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah. And the only. Because there was a lot of talking about, like, how AI is helping advertisers, how it's making advertisements, how, like, it's helping in the process of that. And there was a focus in all the panels about that on how, like, well, it's just augmenting the humans. But the only specific examples given were the McDonald's and Coca Cola. AI generated ads which were both disastrous. I mean, the McDonald's one in the Netherlands got removed.
- [18:55]
Garrison Wells
Yeah, they so badly, they withdrew the ad because it was so ugly to look at.
- [19:00]
Robinson Meyer
I don't know. Coke did do it twice, so maybe they consider it a win. But everything I saw was very negative. I didn't see a lot of positive feedback on Coca Cola. Vis a vis their weird AI holidays are coming at.
- [19:11]
Garrison Wells
It's like people who don't know it's I think feel very neutral about it.
- [19:14]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah.
- [19:14]
Garrison Wells
People that do know it's a. I think generally have negative reactions.
- [19:18]
Robinson Meyer
I think if you look at it it's pretty clear.
- [19:20]
Garrison Wells
But anyway, I mean less clear if maybe you're like a 60 year old who watches, you know.
- [19:24]
Robinson Meyer
Exactly. Law and Order just coming on in between stuff and that's all good enough.
- [19:28]
Garrison Wells
Grandpa don't got Internet, right? Yeah, he doesn't know.
- [19:31]
Robinson Meyer
He might notice some of those, those fucking polar bears have the wrong number of paws. But yeah, so like there was some talk of that and the other, the only specific example they gave of like an AI enhanced strategy was Allegra. The people who own like the medicine had like a new non drowsy formula or they just wanted to highlight that it was non drowsy. So they basically had a bunch of like seeded the stuff that chatbot that like OpenAI was or that chatbots were scraping.
- [19:59]
Garrison Wells
Yeah.
- [19:59]
Robinson Meyer
With content about how Allegra makes it is non drowsy and about how like competing similar medications make you drowsy. I mean.
- [20:07]
Garrison Wells
Yeah.
- [20:07]
Robinson Meyer
So that it would get mentioned in like when people pushed about and they talked about. They called it like model hacking I think was the exact term used.
- [20:15]
Garrison Wells
This is interesting.
- [20:16]
Robinson Meyer
That was the only specific example that I got how any of this works too. Like everyone else was just talking in vague terms about like and we've really seen our team's creativity soar or whatever.
- [20:26]
Garrison Wells
That's interesting. No, because like the, the way that I probably use or exposed to AI the most is like on like Google Search now which has, you know, it's, it's like AI like summaries instead of like actual search results. But those are all based on like.
- [20:38]
Robinson Meyer
But you can type minus AI in with the search results if you want to cut that stuff out.
- [20:42]
Garrison Wells
But those AI results are you know, pulling from certain like articles which, which they'll link to. So I mean, yeah, I guess if I was trying to design it like an AI marketing strategy, I would, I would either you know, pay publications to mention my product in more articles or find. Find out, find other ways to, to influence mentions of, of my product in like written media that then would be used as like training data for AI. And yeah, I guess there, there, there can be a whole, you know, search engine optimization. Model hacking is I guess.
- [21:14]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah. Model optimization or yeah, like like product opposite optimization for a model. I guess that's funny. But yeah, like the, so the, the first talk that I went to was about the funnel or whatever. And one of the people speaking there was the, the cmo, the chief marketing officer of Intuit, which is the company that owns TurboTax. Right. Like it's one of the big we do your taxes companies out there and also a lobbyer in terms of stopping any sort of reform that would make it so that you don't need to.
- [21:40]
Garrison Wells
Do your own taxes. Other countries do credit score monitoring, a.
- [21:44]
Robinson Meyer
Whole bunch of stuff, all that kind of stuff. So this guy, the CMO of the company, Thomas Reniz, was part of this, the end of the funnel speech. And he made a couple of comments that I took note of. One is product is brand and brand is product, full stop. So the more people you can make experience your product, that's the best selling point in value, of course. Right. Which it was just interesting to me in terms of the Intuit as a company that has lobbied to make it impossible for like any reform that would allow people to not need a third party to do their, their taxes. But also this idea that like product is brand and brand is product isn't true of a lot of companies. Like, if you think about like for example, like the, a lot of the different soft drinks are all owned by one company, but they're fundamentally different like products and have in often cases like a different user base. And it's a very, like, it's a very tech. When your product is a concept, like you can't do your own taxes because it's a pain in the ass, but the government doesn't do it for you because we lobby to make that illegal. Like, I found that interesting and it kind of got me angry at Thomas at the start of this. And I was particularly interested in one of the things he brought up, which is that he talked about the $100 million that Intuit is putting into OpenAI and they're putting this into OpenAI as part of a multi year partnership. And I want to quote from an article in the website Araptus, which is discussing this exact thing that I found useful when I was formulating my question for Thomas. The contract was to embed AI models directly into QuickBooks, TurboTax and Credit Karma. The promise AI assistance that can generate invoices, provide tax estimates, recommend loans, and help you make informed financial decisions. Right. That may sound like kind of like a basic move, like what's, what's so sketchy about just integrating like an AI chatbot to make it easier to use your tax software? It can be complicated and hard to use as anyway. But kind of the necessary part of this is if you are, if you're doing this, if you're integrating all of these different tax and credit programs into an AI model, you're giving that AI model access to people's financial data in a tremendous amount of detail. Right? And all of these AI models have a massive shared vulnerability, which is a vulnerability to something called prompt injection. Right? And that's when, for example, say someone is a customer of a tax preparer that uses one of Intuit's products to prepare taxes for its customers, and this person sends an invoice into the company that has hidden text in it that is a command to the language model that will be scraping this and uploading it to basically open up and send over a bunch of customer data to a specific source. That's a thing that you can do. It's called prompt injection. And there's not really a way to counter it. There's not like a proven comprehensive defense against this sort of thing. And so there's this massive vulnerability. And this was first brought up in an article on the website I cited, Araptis, by Chris Black, who's a security researcher and expert. And I want to read a quote from his article about this. There are no proven comprehensive defenses against prompt injection. When not if an AI powered financial tool leaks customer data through a prompt injection attack, who is liable? The company using QuickBooks? Intuit? OpenAI? The regulations weren't written for this scenario. So I decided to ask that question of Thomas being like the chief marketing officer, I figured, well, he should have some answer to what do you have? What sort of security measures do you have to mitigate the risk of a prompt injection attack? And who do you see as being responsible? If you are the ones providing customer data to OpenAI and their tool gets hit by prompt injection attack, are you responsible? Is OpenAI is a third party that might be using your products? And he had no answer to this. His only answer when we were on stage was like, we're talking with OpenAI about it. Which, like, well, you're already in the process of collaborating with them.
- [25:43]
Garrison Wells
Yeah.
- [25:43]
Robinson Meyer
I have a question for Thomas. I was kind of concerned when reading about Intuit assist that a OpenAI is going to have read and write access to quite a lot of financial information from users, which opens up a vulnerability for prompt injection. Right. You have the possibility that people can hide things in invoices that are then being uploaded that will cause the AI to provide the malicious user with financial details for individuals or corporations. And I guess my primary question here, this seems like a major liability issue when somebody's information gets rerouted to a place it's not supposed to go to a malicious actor who's responsible.
- [26:27]
Thomas Reniz
We have taken the value of integrity and protecting our customer data incredibly seriously over our entire lives. That's over 40 years as a company and leading in the software space for financial services. So this is not something we're about to lose in any way in the new age of AI. In fact, it has to get even more important when we double down on protecting people's information and the security of that information. So that is something that we are already in deep conversations with OpenAI and how to make sure that will be true no matter where we're serving.
- [26:59]
Robinson Meyer
And when I kind of cornered him afterwards, he didn't have like his eventual follow up answer was like, I don't know that kind of stuff. And like you are the chief marketing officer. Thank you again for answering my question.
- [27:09]
Garrison Wells
Sure.
- [27:09]
Thomas Reniz
Is it your question?
- [27:10]
Robinson Meyer
I'm still really concerned about the danger of prompt injection attacks revealing financial data. And it doesn't still sound like there's an understanding of who will be liable. Is it intuit? Is it OpenAI?
- [27:22]
Thomas Reniz
I'm not the expert to answer that question for you, so I mean like I can tell you that we're committed to security and privacy and we are doing everything we can to protect that. I mean we have a lot riding on it as you might imagine.
- [27:32]
Robinson Meyer
Well, yeah, every digital security expert I've talked to says it's a matter of when, not if that there is financial data revealed by these attacks. It seems like there be an understanding.
- [27:44]
Thomas Reniz
I'm trying to follow up with you. I'm just, I'm not going to be the expert to get into the details on that.
- [27:48]
Robinson Meyer
Okay. Yeah.
- [27:50]
Ad Voice
Thank you.
- [27:52]
Robinson Meyer
A key part of marketing this should be being able to tell people what kind of safety precautions are being taken with their data. And the fact that he didn't and clearly had never thought about any of this stuff. And I had a couple of different people come up to me afterwards and like be like wow, that was a really good question. And I was like, well why hasn't this been asked before? Like why, why is this a thing where like some guy's blogging about it and I'm asking you about it and you don't have an answer to it and you're the CEO of one of like the largest tax prep, the largest tax prep company in the country. Like it's Just, it's emblematic of how careless everyone adjacent to this industry is with personal data, with the safety of people and of society as a result of like, what their products are doing. Like, there's absolutely no consideration given to the harms of any of this shit. And it's the most consistently dispiriting part of showing up at ces.
- [28:47]
Garrison Wells
Well, that's what I got. What a fun story that is.
- [29:01]
Robinson Meyer
All right, we're back. So one of the other things that's been a major topic on the panels I went to and is generally a big thing at CES this year and in tech this year is agentic AI or agents, right? The idea that you have an AI that you can send off to like book a flight for you and it doesn't just like find a flight that it searches for and be like, hey, this looks good. It like actually books it for you and handles all of that, right? This has been one of the big promises of AI, not just for like flights, but that you can have like an actual digital assistant that persistently remembers all of your shit and can book stuff for you and handle like the pain in the ass nitty gritty. If you say like, hey, I need you to find a restaurant within like this four block radius that has seven seats open at 8pm and abides by these dietary restrictions, you kind of just have to slog through figuring that out right now. And the idea is an agent can do that for you and currently none of them can. Right? This is a thing that is changing. Like the performance of different agents are changing over time. But it is still very unclear if you're not someone who's fully bought into the Kool Aid, I'll say it's very unclear where these things will top out at. And there was a good article in Futurism recently and I want to quote from it right now. Researchers at Carnegie Mellon University found earlier this year that even the best performing AI agent, which was Google's Gemini 2.5 Pro at the time, failed to complete real world office tasks 70% of the time. And this is. There's been a bunch of articles in the last couple of months about like, why didn't. Because 2025 was supposed to be the year of agentic AI and now they're saying, well, 2026 is going to be the year of agentic AI. Not because none of this stuff works. And in fact enough does that there's a number of viable businesses. Any it. It's not nothing, but it does not work as well as they said it would be working right now. And it consequently has not been adopted nearly as widely as was expected, even this time last year. Right. There's an article in HR Dive Half of Gen Z ChatGPT users say they view it as a coworker survey shows that cites a survey of about 8,600 full time US workers which found that about 11% of those who responded said they use ChatGPT regularly, including about 21% of Gen Z workers, which is significantly lower you can find depending on who you go to. And the stat I've seen bandied about was that like 57% of Gen Z people use ChatGPT on a daily basis for like work. And like more than half used it as like their primary source for recommendations, like what stuff to buy, I don't know, like which set of numbers is accurate. There's a lot of different pollsters giving data. Right. But kind of no matter who you look at, the, the evidence suggests that the, the year that was supposed to be the year of agentic AI did not turn it into a normal thing. Right. It's still lagging behind expectation. So that's kind of what we're seeing at CES is a lot of people trying to like, well let's bring back kind of the same agentic shit we had last year, slightly improved and see if it catches on. Maybe this year it'll hit maturity. Right?
- [31:58]
Garrison Wells
Yeah, no, I mean I, we've been hearing agentic stuff every once in a while, but definitely not as much as, as last year. It's one of those like salt and pepper words that they throw in. The second batch of panels that I attended after the, the keynote, which I, I should mention as soon as I walked into the keynote at 8:30am the first thing, the very first thing I heard from Gary Shapiro, one of the heads of the Consumer technology association was a 6, 7 joke. But whether this is your first CES.
- [32:27]
Robinson Meyer
Or your 15th or in my case, you belong here.
- [32:32]
Ad Voice
What number was that?
- [32:34]
Garrison Wells
60 or 70?
- [32:36]
Robinson Meyer
He did a 6, 7 joke already.
- [32:40]
Garrison Wells
Very first.
- [32:40]
Robinson Meyer
Oh wow, great, great.
- [32:42]
Garrison Wells
30Am as soon as I walk in, it's because like I walked in maybe like five minutes late, but very first words. So that's, that's good, that's, that kind of sets the tone for a lot of, a lot of that panel. But then I, I went to a few panels in Eureka park about like AI governance and like how governments working, working with AI. A lot of stuff mostly about like the challenge of governments keeping up with innovation, how, you know, Too much regulation restricts these companies from doing real regulation. The Secretary of State of Austria had a really good quote about how data protections inhibit innovation.
- [33:27]
DJ Hester Prynne
One of the things that we are seeing today is that some of the people, some of the citizen have this fear about AI.
- [33:33]
Robinson Meyer
So how do you feel it in.
- [33:35]
Garrison Wells
Austria I think you mentioned very, very well. It's all about building trust, taking the fear, trustworthy AI, that's the most important thing. And of course data protection is very huge. But on the other side there between data protection and innovation, you need to find the middle way because sometimes data protection is not good for innovation. On a similar note, as the Intuit turbotax thing of data protection is mainly getting in the way of trying to actually make, make real social progress which will carry with it some degree of risk. The second one of these AI governance panels was like these EU ambassadors to the US from Estonia and Luxembourg talking about like Reaganomics basically for 30 minutes talking about how much they loved Ronald Reagan.
- [34:30]
Robinson Meyer
Great win Estonia. We certainly subscribe to the, to this statement that Piet Reagan once made that the few most horrific words in English are the ones saying that, hey, I'm from the government and I'm here to.
- [34:45]
Garrison Wells
Help you specifically in trying to make sure that governments are able to keep up with technology. And the previous panel with the Austrian Secretary of State was about the challenges of trying to convince the citizens of these countries to like adopt AI and adopt just in general like digitalization and specifically with like digital IDs and how, yeah, how there's like, you know, maybe like 20 to 30% of people who are very resistant and the challenge of like making, making sure that like this gets framed not as like a product or like a, like a project for technology, but as like a society wide push. Yeah, but besides that, these, these panels were honestly a little bit sleepy as well as the state of the creator economy panel.
- [35:26]
Robinson Meyer
Oh, how's it doing that?
- [35:27]
Garrison Wells
I went, you know what, it's both, it's both in its adolescence but also reach maturity.
- [35:33]
Robinson Meyer
Wow.
- [35:33]
Garrison Wells
And they said it's hard brave to pick both. It's hard for two, for something to be two things at once. But in this case it is. But they talked about how creators are more enabled to use brand deals, including you know, brand deals to en with like a backlog of older content. You can remove brand deals from older content, replace them with current brand deals using a new feature from YouTube.
- [35:58]
Robinson Meyer
Great.
- [35:59]
Garrison Wells
There's a guy from YouTube at the panel.
- [36:01]
Robinson Meyer
Sure. Yeah, I'm sure he was very excited.
- [36:03]
Garrison Wells
But it was mostly about how you know new, new ways to use influencers to market your product. And that was the extent of what the creator economy really meant.
- [36:11]
Robinson Meyer
And that's all any of these people have any idea on is like we can inject ads into AI, they trust AI so they'll buy the products or we can inject ads into influencers, they trust the influencers.
- [36:23]
Garrison Wells
That was the thing.
- [36:24]
Robinson Meyer
Like none of these people, they dress it up with all sorts of fancy language but it's. And most of these panels you mentioned, like there's a lot of bullshit. Every now and then you get some like good moments or you get to like question an asshole, but it's mostly bullshit. But it's occasionally worth it from moments like when I was on the agentic AI Cutting through the hype panel, Jay Patasol, who's the principal analyst at Forrester, started speaking and he said something beautiful Garrison and this is not an exact quote, but it's pretty close. We have a new audience. We are speaking to machines. We are through the looking glass. We are building content for engines. We are building websites to be scraped so that an LLM can understand what you want it to understand about your brand. Yep, yep, yep, that gets it. That's what these people see the Internet as. They see it as like everything before this was a mistake or was what the Internet was for was a place for brands to feed information into machines that then spoon feed the information directly into customers who trust it like little lambs. That's what they want the Internet to be and that's what they believe they've gotten to. That's what AI. That's the promise of AI.
- [37:30]
Garrison Wells
The promise of AI is that this isn't just the Internet anymore. This can actually just be the physical world as well. And this was something that was talked about during the, the CESCTA keynote Tuesday morning, specifically with the birth of AI wearables. Each of these wearables is able to now collect information about the physical world. And as long as you have, you know, adequate data sharing, AI is able to gain so much more knowledge about how the quote unquote real world operates. And this is going to make, you know, all of the processes of AI stronger in the future as it learns more about what this world actually is. Yeah, and beyond the promise of wearables to like improve someone's life, this is the real project is strengthening AI through the use of these wearables. That's not, that's not actually about the consumer experience.
- [38:17]
Robinson Meyer
It's about providing data to this machine.
- [38:19]
Garrison Wells
It'S, it's this like larger, larger, very like existential thing, at least for these executives like that. That's the thing that they are really emphasizing, despite this being called the Consumer Electronic Showcase.
- [38:30]
Robinson Meyer
And I think again, the best thing I can give you into how fundamentally as much money as there is behind this and as many grand words as they dress it up and how intellectually bankrupt this whole tech movement is, is that the, the third panel that I went to, which is about AI and creativity. One of the people on it was Jesse Damasek, who works for Diageo, which is like a company that imports all of your favorite whiskeys from Europe, right? Like they sell all of the different, like Scottish whiskeys that have to get like imported and sold over here. And he was talking about, they were talking about some of the specific examples they had of like how AI has been used in advertising campaigns. And his exact statement was, you can leverage an artist and create infinite examples of their work. By which he means you can find an artist that you like, sign a deal with them and then have AI create infinite examples in their style. And so I came up afterwards and I was like, what were you specifically referring to? Like, how does this actually work as a product? And the thing that he pointed out is that they have a couple of whiskey brands that they have done. You go in and you order a bottle and it's printed on site and it uses AI to make an example in the style of this existing artist that they like's work. That's unique for you.
- [39:45]
Garrison Wells
Uh huh.
- [39:47]
Robinson Meyer
And he said it's been successful for them. Is it billion trillions of dollars? Is it $3 trillion? No, I mean these are, these are things that like. Yeah, I guess I can see that maybe selling some. Is it selling better than any other like branded whiskey than any other, like, you know, because whiskey companies, big ones will come out with like, here's this edition every year, whatever, they'll have one special limited edition one. Is it selling better than that? We don't have that data, but it was, it's one of those. Is like, that's the idea, huh? That's like, we're talking about like AI is supercharging creativity and letting us like think bolder and more creatively than we've ever thought before. And there were so many lines in this fucking panel about like how we, we're like hypercharging what human beings can be and do. And like everyone should be really excited about what all this means for the future. One of the Panelists said, my best advice for you is let a thousand flowers bloom. Sorry, that was in the panel right before. But anyway, it's still in all of this.
- [40:42]
Garrison Wells
Like, it's all that same.
- [40:43]
Robinson Meyer
It's all this same kind of shit that bleeds together. And it's like, okay, what are your ideas? Well, we're having Allegra kind of lie to manipulate an engine, and we've got custom printed bottles for your whiskey.
- [40:56]
Garrison Wells
Well, you know, speaking of AI unleashing creativity, the last thing I'll talk about this episode is the worst booth at Showstoppers, which this year, it's kind of impressive because.
- [41:07]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, that's hard.
- [41:08]
Garrison Wells
It's mostly smart glasses and, like, three different pool cleaners and then some random software stuff and then a few things we saw last year. Sure. The worst booth. Robert, you. You write books, right?
- [41:20]
Robinson Meyer
I have. In the past. Hopefully in the future.
- [41:23]
Garrison Wells
What if I told you that you could write three books in less than 24 hours?
- [41:29]
Robinson Meyer
God. Thank you, Garrison. As a writer, without using cocaine, there's no. Well, okay, so I'd say you're a liar.
- [41:37]
Garrison Wells
That's a little bit harder.
- [41:39]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, but I thought you were trying to sell me some blow. And I was gonna say when we turned the mic off, with the power.
- [41:45]
Garrison Wells
Of AI, you can write three books in six to 24 hours.
- [41:50]
Robinson Meyer
Wow. That's almost as fast as Stephen King when he was on Company. Yeah, there you go. Not quite.
- [41:56]
Garrison Wells
So there's this table. It was the least dividing table, definitely, in all Showstoppers because it was filled with books with. I will show you the covers here. They all look like this.
- [42:08]
Robinson Meyer
They all. Oh, yeah, no, those. I mean, I'm seeing blue and orange.
- [42:12]
Garrison Wells
It's colors.
- [42:13]
Robinson Meyer
And black.
- [42:13]
Garrison Wells
It's.
- [42:14]
Robinson Meyer
AI generated images, like, every movie poster now in, like, palette of colors.
- [42:18]
Garrison Wells
There's no art style behind it. It's very generic. And they have, like, you know, like the most generic font for the title, all in the same placement with some author's name at the bottom. They're very sleepy. You could. You can find pictures of these covers if you Google or. Or. Or Bing or, you know, maybe chatgpt. Write three books in 24 hours. You can see. You can see the COVID Finally.
- [42:41]
Robinson Meyer
I've always wanted to write three books, Garrison.
- [42:44]
Garrison Wells
So what this is, is an app that will help you write these books. It's not going to do it all for you. You still need to come up with the general idea of the story.
- [42:54]
Robinson Meyer
Oh, the hard stuff and the characters, the difficult things.
- [42:57]
Garrison Wells
The world building is always the hardest.
- [42:59]
Robinson Meyer
Part, everyone says most of the work in a book is done the first six hours.
- [43:03]
Garrison Wells
The world building is the really hard part. The easy part is just getting all those words down. So you need to create some characters now. Could you just have some other AI service create these characters? Maybe, but you. You should write maybe about a thousand words. Kind of like a story Bible type thing or a character. Character outline and a general direction for the story. And you. You feed that into. Into this app, and then within hours, it will generate not just one book, not just two books.
- [43:33]
Robinson Meyer
Wow.
- [43:33]
Garrison Wells
But a trilogy.
- [43:35]
Robinson Meyer
Wow.
- [43:36]
Garrison Wells
Of books. And it's only a trilogy. You cannot generate a single book. The only common trilogy.
- [43:42]
Robinson Meyer
Look, I get it. George Lucas worked the same way. Garrison. Look, you're telling me that the greatest machine mind in history wouldn't think the same as the greatest human mind in history. I bet it'll independently create jizz music, too.
- [43:55]
Garrison Wells
It only comes in trilogies. And I now shall read a sample of this writing and dying to read this. There was maybe like five or six different books with many copies of the same book on this table. And I flipped through maybe about half reading like a random page every. You know, every like 20, 50 pages. And it. I. It was. I. It was. It was too boring that I forgot to take pictures of these pages because I was just like. It was a struggle to finish. To finish each page. But luckily, on their website, they do have some sample pages. I talked to one of the guys working at the booth, and he said that he tried this, and we're like, he found the service. And he first thought, you know, surely this can't be any good. And when he. When he generated his book, he was surprised at how good the writing is. He said that he probably wouldn't win a Pulitzer or a Hugo.
- [44:48]
Robinson Meyer
Probably not.
- [44:49]
Garrison Wells
This is two awards that he named. Probably not. But he said it was pretty good writing. This guy was so far the most Tim Robinson character I've met at the conference.
- [45:00]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah, that's great.
- [45:01]
Garrison Wells
So, Robert, you can pick the genre of sample. We have a thriller book, a fantasy, mystery, science fiction, romance, or mainstream literary fiction. What. What. What genre do you want?
- [45:15]
Robinson Meyer
I think I want science fiction.
- [45:16]
Garrison Wells
Science fiction, because I feel like there's.
- [45:18]
Robinson Meyer
The shortest line between parody and legitimate within sci fi.
- [45:23]
Garrison Wells
All right. This is from a book called. I don't even want to say this one.
- [45:28]
Robinson Meyer
I'm really curious now.
- [45:30]
Garrison Wells
Palimpsit Orbit is what I'm going to say.
- [45:32]
Robinson Meyer
Oh, my God. It's trying to be Arthur C. Clarke.
- [45:35]
Garrison Wells
It's called The Palimpsit orbit.
- [45:37]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah.
- [45:38]
Garrison Wells
Chapter one maybe. I don't know. Desert Signals Morrow woke with the taste of metal in her mouth and a pulse in her temples that felt one not shy of a hangover. The ceiling above her was low and white, edged with soft vents. A monitor over the bed scrolled green numbers in a stylized outline of her lungs. Thin air. She remembered. 5,000 meters, the Atacama sky somewhere above concrete and glass. Good morning, Dr. Ellison. A calm baritone. How's the head? She turned toward the voice. A man in the doorway wore a slate blue clinic jumper and a badge that caught the desert light leaking through the polarized glass. Dark curls threaded with gray laugh lines that didn't quite match the tiredness around his eyes.
- [46:29]
Robinson Meyer
That's him, man.
- [46:29]
Garrison Wells
You good?
- [46:30]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah.
- [46:30]
Garrison Wells
Do you want me to keep going?
- [46:32]
Robinson Meyer
I. You know, it's. It's again, it's like the. It's an imitation of, like, a story. Like it's a scene, and it's a scene with details to describe people. But there's not like you would. Ideally, I would have something of an idea of, like, what the thrust of the story is going to be like. For example, Bilbo Baggins was a hobbit who lived in a house under a hill or something like that. Forget the exact wording of that. But like, you know, it makes sense. It sounds remarkably like, bad. No, I don't want to insult NaNoWriMo writers that much. It sounds like a story that was generated based on a belief that, like, well, if we can just like, describe enough stuff and use enough words to describe a scene, then that counts as plot.
- [47:16]
Ad Voice
Yeah.
- [47:17]
Robinson Meyer
I mean, and a character which we don't have any of yet.
- [47:20]
Garrison Wells
All of it was this very generic, empty, like, stuff that's very, very common. And if you ever have to read through a lot of like, AI writing, whether for work or let's say, you know, you work in a college, so you have students submitting this stuff, or you for some reason are online and you feel obligated to look at the worst parts of the world. Like what me and Robert do sometimes. This all feels very familiar. I'll read one other, like, paragraph from a different book, a thriller called the Helix Files.
- [47:46]
Robinson Meyer
Oh, good.
- [47:47]
Garrison Wells
Obviously part of a trilogy. So who knows where these stories go over the course of three books. Quote the car heater had died 10 minutes ago. Cold leaked through the floorboards into Helix's boots. Outside the Eastern Block industrial belt slid past in gray slabs and rusted steel, wet concrete. Period diesel period. A stray dog nosing trash heap beside the road, fur slick with drizzle. So it's. It's something that. Right.
- [48:14]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah.
- [48:15]
Garrison Wells
A lot of this sort of, like, quick, punchy sentences are common in AI writing at the moment. Wet concrete, you know, with a period.
- [48:21]
Robinson Meyer
But, like, no, a lot of this.
- [48:22]
Garrison Wells
Type of stuff, you see in AI writing, you have a lot of.
- [48:26]
Robinson Meyer
A lot. A lot. It's easier than character and plot.
- [48:29]
Garrison Wells
A lot. A lot of, like, em dash sentences. As I was flipping through these books, I was like, okay, like, I see what they're doing.
- [48:34]
Robinson Meyer
I see. Yeah.
- [48:35]
Garrison Wells
But now if you want to write a quote, unquote, write a trilogy of books, you can pay the money, and within six hours, you will have a trilogy. So that's what really makes me feel optimistic about CES is the way that creativity is being democratized. Because it used to be that no ordinary person could write a book.
- [48:53]
Robinson Meyer
You had to have a story and be some sort of freak at Oxford.
- [48:56]
Garrison Wells
Maybe like a. You need, like, a pencil, maybe a keyboard.
- [48:59]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah. Impossible barriers.
- [49:01]
Garrison Wells
For many, not possible. And now, luckily, through AI, as long as you have, you know, money to pay a subscription service and a computer.
- [49:08]
Robinson Meyer
And VC fundraising and subsidizing of the.
- [49:11]
Garrison Wells
Service, ideally some VC cash.
- [49:13]
Robinson Meyer
Yeah.
- [49:14]
Garrison Wells
Then you, too, can be an author of a trilogy.
- [49:17]
Robinson Meyer
Well, that's my plan for the future, I guess. I want to end by talking about the second to the last panel that I sat through, which was at the AI house and was, I think, yet again, this was another one that was about. We're largely talking about ethics in this one. Like AI and ethics and like what that actually means. And Eric Pace, who, on the slide, they just said he works at Company, but it's reassuring. Yeah, reassuring. He works at Cox Media, which is like a big media company.
- [49:45]
Garrison Wells
Yes. Based in Georgia.
- [49:47]
Robinson Meyer
And he had a couple statements that were interesting to me. He had one where he said that it's kind of incumbent upon people to develop an ethical rubric for how and what sources and what AIs they trust and why and figure that out. And I think what I inferred was that, like, because it's not going to get done by anyone else. And it kind of became clear to me later. I think he also doesn't want anyone else to do it. He wants this to be an individual project where you have to kind of figure that out for yourself. I was kind of unsure as to whether he was the evil or just the pragmatic version of this, because the pragmatic version is, like, literally no one's going to restrict this stuff, you just have to try to get by. Right. Which is maybe accurate. But there was a really interesting interaction on this panel. One of the other people there was Dr. Martin Clancy, who was an Irish academic and a musician, who was on the panel again to talk about creativity and ethics and made a comment that I found was really interesting. And I don't know, I wouldn't say I agree or disagree with it, but I found it really interesting where he was like, actually, I'm not at all concerned comparatively about having an AI give me medical advice. I'm deeply concerned about letting an AI recommend music or movies to me, which I found a really interesting attitude and kind of a thought provoking one.
- [51:01]
Garrison Wells
Yeah, it is interesting.
- [51:02]
Robinson Meyer
Which was immediately spoiled by Eric Pace going like, well, I don't see why anyone would have an issue with an AI doctor. Doctors get things wrong all the time. And then he just like, let that statement sit.
- [51:12]
Garrison Wells
I have heard. I have heard this at CES before.
- [51:15]
Robinson Meyer
And doctors AIs have a lot more data. And they ended it by saying because everyone asked, like, what were their big wins of the year? And his big win was that his wife hated ChatGPT and didn't want to use it and he convinced her to use it to plan their vacation. It kind of sounded like he bullied her into it, but that was his big win for the year. I didn't like him.
- [51:33]
Garrison Wells
My wit is I got to neg my wife.
- [51:35]
Robinson Meyer
I got to neg my wife into using a chatbot to plan our special time vacationing together because we're not creative enough to figure out how to go on a fucking trip.
- [51:44]
Garrison Wells
Hashtag AIWin.
- [51:46]
Robinson Meyer
Jesus. I don't know. Anyway, I think that's good for episode one from ces. Yes. Come back next week where we'll have more or listen to Better Offline, where Ed will have just a shocking amount of content from a lot of the relatively few and constantly shrinking stable of sane people reporting on technology.
- [52:04]
Garrison Wells
See you next week.
- [52:08]
Robinson Meyer
It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for. It Could Happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.