Podcast Summary: It Could Happen Here – “Natalism feat. Andrew”
Release Date: December 10, 2025
Hosts: Andra Sage (aka Andrew Zum), Mia Wong
Podcast Network: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts
Episode Overview
This episode dives into the philosophical and political battleground between antinatalism—the belief that procreation is morally questionable or wrong—and pronatalism, which argues that having children is needed and desirable for society. Host Andra Sage (Andrew) and co-host Mia Wong explore the philosophical roots, arguments, and real-world implications of both positions, ultimately championing reproductive autonomy and personal freedom over dogma or coercion.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Philosophical Background and Definitions
[03:34 - 04:53]
- Antinatalism: The view that it is morally impermissible, always or usually, to procreate.
- Rooted in the idea that life is more a burden than a gift.
- Philosophers cited:
- Arthur Schopenhauer: Life is constant striving and frustration.
- Emil Cioran: Non-existence as the ultimate form of peace.
- David Benatar: Main theoretical architect.
- Pronatalism: The belief that society needs more children, often getting louder due to declining birth rates worldwide.
2. Antinatalist Arguments and Critique
[05:15 - 08:46]
- Consent Argument: “A child cannot consent to being born.” (Andra)
- Negative Utilitarian Argument: Suffering cannot be outweighed by potential joy; not creating life is the surest way to prevent suffering.
- The Asymmetry Argument (Benatar): “By not having a child, you avoid guaranteed suffering without depriving any person of joy because that person doesn't exist.” (Andra)
- Deluded Gladness Argument: "Your positive view of your own life is unreliable... cognitive biases like optimism and selective memory... distort how viciously we assess our own suffering.” (Andra, [12:00])
- Mia’s critique: “This entire line of argument is just making me feel like you need to do less philosophy and like go outside and live.” ([12:39])
- Clinical depression is brought up as a more relevant framework than philosophy for this mindset ([13:01]).
3. Counterpoints to Antinatalism
[15:32 - 17:04]
- The hosts point out that life often does contain more joy than pain, and many negative aspects (war, poverty) are the byproduct of fixable systems.
- Andra: "I'm glad to exist, Mia. I feel like you're probably glad to exist. I'm glad you exist." ([16:30])
- Choice and consent: Many things we don't consent to (vaccines, state, death, capitalism) but still engage with for broader benefit ([17:04], [18:06]).
4. Policy and Political Action
[20:47 - 21:31]
- Antinatalism is predominantly theoretical, with little policy impact in practice.
- Pronatalism, by contrast, is enacted through policy, and sometimes with coercive effects.
5. Pronatalist Policies and Motivations
[21:42 - 28:01]
- Motivations:
- Economic anxiety (shrinking workforce, aging population)
- Nationalism and cultural continuity (e.g. Orban's Hungary)
- Religious directives (e.g. “be fruitful and multiply”)
- Technocratic/eugenic anxieties (Silicon Valley, Elon Musk)
- Policy Examples:
- Cash incentives, medals for mothers, bans on antinatalist “propaganda”
- Restrictions on abortion and bodily autonomy (especially from conservative camps)
- Expanding family benefits or fertility support (more progressive or “soft pronatalism”)
- Critique:
- Most policies have limited effects; people make reproductive choices for structural reasons (cost of living, climate crisis, etc.)
- Mia: “If people don’t want to have babies, they’re not gonna have babies.” ([27:16])
- Pronatalist pressure is frequently about enforcing a traditional order, linked with misogyny and reactionary politics.
6. Final Reflections & Host Stance
[28:03 - 29:15]
- Andra: “After looking at both sides, right, you have the antinatalists and the pronatalists. Don’t create life to avoid suffering. Or you must create life to preserve society. I guess you could call me a centrist. The antinatalists repulse me, and the pro natalists equally repulse me... I’m a firm believer in autonomy, in personal freedom and the ability to decide one’s own life.” ([28:03])
- Individual autonomy and freedom to choose, absent from ideological coercion, is paramount.
- “Let your choice be your choice and my choice be my choice. Make choices freely. Resist the pressure from either camp and keep your agency intact.” (Andra, [28:54])
- Mia: "Honestly, that covers the stuff I was gonna say." ([29:13])
- Show conclusion: “All power to all the people.” (Andra, [29:21])
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Mia Wong [12:39]: "This entire line of argument is just making me feel like you need to do less philosophy and like go outside and live."
- Andra Sage [13:19]: “I feel like Eeyore would be an antinatalist.”
- Mia Wong [15:17]: "Really, truly, at this point, brother, this is a you problem. Like, you just don't like existing... like, come on, what are we doing here?"
- Andra Sage [24:01]: "Elon Musk... seems like he's single handedly trying to fix [low birth rates] with his seed spreading. Yeah, his assembly line of children with, you know, the accompanying product barcodes for names."
- Final Reflection, Andra [28:54]: “Let your choice be your choice and my choice be my choice. Make choices freely. Resist the pressure from either camp and keep your agency intact.”
- Closing, Andra [29:21]: “All power to all the people.”
Key Timestamps
| Time | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:15 | Start of the actual episode, introductions. | | 03:34 | Introduction to antinatalism and its philosophical foundations. | | 05:15 | Arguments and classic philosophies of antinatalism explained. | | 12:00 | Discussion of the “deluded gladness argument” and skepticism towards antinatalist logic. | | 15:32 | Refuting antinatalism with possibility of positive change and pleasure in life. | | 17:04 | On consent and conditions of existence vs. social/political phenomena. | | 18:55 | Reflection on whether antinatalist conclusions are “repugnant.” | | 21:31 | Transition to pronatalism: definitions, motivations, and policy examples. | | 24:01 | Musk and the technocratic pronatalist movement. | | 25:25 | Pronatalist policies: family benefits, conservative vs. progressive motives, and limited success of incentives. | | 28:03 | Summing up – personal autonomy, centrist rejection of both camps, and show closing thoughts. | | 29:21 | "All power to all the people." |
Tone & Style Notes
- Conversational, sardonic, and at times irreverent.
- Philosophy is critiqued with humor and contemporary references (“Eeyore would be an antinatalist”; “Elon Musk... product barcodes for names”).
- Strong emphasis on practical autonomy, skepticism toward grand ideological projects, and a critical view of techno-elitism and reactionary politics.
- Hosts’ left-anarchist sensibilities are woven through the discussion.
Takeaway:
This episode offers a clear, nuanced critique of both antinatalism and pronatalism, ultimately defending the importance of personal choice and reproductive agency in the face of philosophy’s abstractions and society’s efforts to control birth rates. The hosts use humor and pointed critique to unravel the often-obscured politics behind philosophical debates about existence, suffering, and society’s future.