Panama 1989 to Venezuela 2026: What History Can Teach Us feat. Andrew

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Panama 1989 to Venezuela 2026: What History Can Teach Us feat. Andrew"

Podcast: It Could Happen Here (Cool Zone Media & iHeartPodcasts)
Date: February 3, 2026
Hosts: Andrew Sage, James Stout

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the long, fraught history of U.S. intervention in Panama as a lens to understand and contextualize the recent, fictionalized U.S. invasion of Venezuela (2026)—drawing powerful parallels between the two events. Andrew Sage and James Stout break down Panama’s colonial and post-colonial history, the construction of the Panama Canal, the manipulation of Panamanian politics by American interests, and the consequences for both regional geopolitics and local populations. The episode sets up the next part on the infamous 1989 U.S. invasion and ties the legacy of U.S. interventions in Latin America to modern-day crises.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The 2026 U.S. Invasion of Venezuela (00:41)

• Andrew Sage frames the episode by referencing the (fictional) New Year's U.S. invasion of Venezuela, the kidnapping of Maduro, and a mounting death toll.
  • Quote: "Many have been drawn attention to the similarities between this recent historical moment and another notorious US invasion of a nearby Latin American country, Panama, back in 1989." (01:14)

2. Panama's Geography and Strategic Significance (03:07)

• The hosts provide an overview of Panama: a pivotal country connecting Central and South America, most famous for its world-changing canal.
• The difficulty of traversing the Darien Gap—a nearly impassable jungle region—underscored Panama's historic isolation from Colombia and U.S. interest in controlling access.
  • James Stout: Describes a harrowing modern journey through the Darien Gap, underscoring both the challenges and the desperation of today's migrants.
    • Quote: "You’re shimming along cliff edges on, you know, a few inches of rock and if you fall, you will die... Someone gave birth in the jungle while I was there." (06:00)

3. U.S. Involvement in Panama's Independence (07:00–11:02)

• Panama's independence was orchestrated by U.S. and local elites eager to build a canal; Panama’s geographic and political isolation facilitated U.S. manipulation.
• The U.S. conducted 11 interventions in pre-independence Panama, often citing "protection of American interests" and deploying heavily racialized rhetoric and policy.
  • Andrew Sage: "They saw the Colombian army as ignorant mongrels, and they saw the Panama Isthmus civilians as savage and animal like." (08:44)

4. The Canal as an Imperial Motive (14:21–16:41)

• The Panama Canal project was driven by both mercantile/geostrategic reasons and racialized logic: to allow U.S. commerce and military reach without requiring Americans to “mingle” with local populations.
  • Quote: "You have to get a canal so the whites don’t have to step foot off their boats and mingle with the locals..." (16:26)

5. U.S. Military Interventions and Political Manipulation (16:41–29:17)

• The U.S. repeatedly intervened in Panamanian civil conflicts, effectively ensuring the defeat of peasant/liberal uprisings and cementing the power of conservative, U.S.-aligned elites.
• Describes the process of canal negotiations: U.S. blockades, coerced treaties (notably the Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty), and outright manipulation of Panamanian sovereignty.
  • Andrew Sage: "The US did basically the complete opposite. You know, that’s what makes them such an excellent partner on the global stage. You can always count on them to uphold the highest standards of moral and diplomatic decency." (20:13)

Notable Moment:

• The hosts detail how the U.S. was given—and used at will—the right to seize land for “canal defense,” turning the Canal Zone into de facto U.S. territory with almost no recourse for Panamanians.

6. Building the Canal: Racism and Labor Exploitation (23:34–27:04)

• The canal was built atop a brutally exploitative labor structure; Caribbean workers (mostly Black) were forced into more dangerous, more poorly paid jobs through the “gold roll/silver roll” racial hierarchy.
  • James Stout: Remembers powerful museum exhibits in Panama:
    • Quote: "They had accounts from the workers...the things that they were fed, the shitty shoes that they got given, pictures of the...sleeping situations..." (24:08)
  • 5,600 deaths (mainly among Black Caribbean laborers) during U.S. construction alone are cited.

7. Panama as an American "Imperial Laboratory" (27:17–33:46)

• The U.S. treated Panama as a testing ground for military strategy, chemical and nuclear testing, and political experimentation.
  • Explains proposals to nuke the Darien to build a new canal; recounts analogous disasters like U.S. nuclear testing in the Marshall Islands.
    • James Stout: "Yeah. They completely failed to account for even prevailing winds...People still have one of the highest rates of stillbirth in the world." (33:39)

Notable Insight:

• Panama's 20th-century governance and resistance movements were continually suppressed or subverted by U.S. intervention, shaping the country's entire political trajectory.

8. Panamanian Nationalism and 1964 Flag Riots (36:07–36:52)

• A student protest over the display of Panama’s flag (and a U.S. response that tore it) erupts into a riot, resulting in dozens killed and catalyzing a new wave of Panamanian nationalism.

  • James Stout: Notes seeing the torn Panamanian flag in a museum:
    • Quote: "That Panamanian flag is in the museum...It's a pivotal, like, artifact of their national History." (36:12)

• This and ongoing tensions led to demands for renegotiating the canal treaties, increased assertion of national sovereignty, and, eventually, the slow winding down of U.S. overt military manipulation.

9. Setting Up Part Two: Handover, Reaction, and the Upcoming Discussion of 1989 (40:39)

• The episode ends with a tease for next time, promising to connect this deep history to the infamous 1989 U.S. invasion of Panama and then tie it forward to Venezuela.
  • Andrew Sage: "If you want to know what will happen with the treaty, with Panama's political future, and how all of this does or does not relate to current conditions in Venezuela...stay tuned for the next episode." (40:39)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• James Stout on the Darien Gap migration crisis:
  “You’re shimming along cliff edges on, you know, a few inches of rock and if you fall, you will die...Someone gave birth in the jungle while I was there. It’s unimaginable. And like, people die every day...but people take it because they want a better chance at life.” (06:00)

• Andrew Sage on U.S. conduct:
  “The US did basically the complete opposite. You know, that’s what makes them such an excellent partner on the global stage. You can always count on them to uphold the highest standards of moral and diplomatic decency.” (20:13)

• James Stout on nuclear testing impact:
  “People have attempted to go back to their island because at one point they were told that they could and they absolutely, like, it wasn't safe for them. But like the. The coconuts and the crabs and the fish and the reefs are still irradiated. They're still not safe for them. People still have one of the highest rates of stillbirth in the world.” (33:39)

• James Stout recalling the Panamanian flag:
  “That Panamanian flag is in the museum. The Panama Canal Museum...It's a pivotal, like, artifact of their national History.” (36:12)

• Andrew Sage closing:
  "If you want to know what will happen with the treaty, with Panama's political future, and how all of this does or does not relate to current conditions in Venezuela...stay tuned for the next episode." (40:39)

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Key Timestamps by Segment

• 00:41 — Summary of fictional 2026 U.S. invasion of Venezuela
• 03:07 — Panama's geography, Darien Gap, and canal history introduction
• 08:03 — Overview of U.S. interventions in Panama pre-independence
• 14:21–16:41 — Racial and imperial logics behind the canal
• 16:41–20:13 — U.S. manipulation of Panama’s independence and first U.S.-Panamanian treaty
• 23:34–27:04 — Racist labor structure of canal construction, deaths of laborers
• 27:17–33:46 — Panama as "imperial laboratory," U.S. chemical/nuclear testing, regional launchpad
• 36:07–36:52 — 1964 flag riots and their aftermath
• 40:39 — End of episode; teaser for next discussion

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Tone & Style

The hosts employ a mix of meticulously researched historical narrative, vivid personal anecdotes, biting sarcasm about U.S. imperial policy, and empathetic storytelling—maintaining both a critical and conversational tone. Their language is accessible but unflinching, naming violence, racism, and hypocrisy explicitly.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode contextualizes America's intervention in Panama—the exploitation, violence, and manipulation that shaped modern Panama—to ask what lessons history holds for understanding its contemporary actions in Latin America, particularly Venezuela. By charting a timeline from 19th-century intrigue to 20th-century protest, the hosts illuminate how imperial interests, racism, and Cold War politics layered lasting wounds on the region.
For anyone unfamiliar, this is an essential listen to grasp why U.S. interventions echo into today's crises—and why understanding Panama is crucial to understanding Venezuela and beyond.

Transcript

[Menelik Lumumba]

This is an iHeart podcast Guaranteed Human 1969. Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. And at Morehouse College, the students make their move.

[Hans Charles]

These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the board of trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles our menelik Lumumba. Listen to the a Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Andrew Sage]

So in case you've been living under a rock to ring in the new year, the United States regime decided to invade Venezuela and kidnap President Maduro and his wife Celia Flores to put them on trial in the United States. Thus far at the time of recording, there are 100 reported killed by America's invasion and. And Maduro's vice president Delsey Rodriguez is now acting president of Venezuela while Maduro has been arraigned in New York. There's not a lot yet known about how things played out precisely. So I don't plan on delving too deeply into my speculations, but many have been drawn attention to the similarities between this recent historical moment and another notorious US invasion of a nearby Latin American country, Panama, back in 1989. Hello and welcome to get up in here. I'm Andrew Sage and I'm here with.

[James Stout]

Speak James Person who's been to Panama. I'm excited about this one. I saw some good museums when I was in Panama.

[Andrew Sage]

As have I though I haven't been to any museums. I did visit Panama at one point.

[James Stout]

Nice.

[Andrew Sage]

Many years ago.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

This is before I was politically conscious.

[James Stout]

Okay. Yeah. I was even more politically conscious after are spending some time in Panama.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, I could imagine after reading about what happened. Yeah, I could see why you would be.

[James Stout]

Yeah, right. Like I obviously what people. We will inform people. They're not aware of the history of the US and Panama over two episodes. But having just come from watching people who across the Darien Gap being detained, imprisoned and deported from Panama with US funding and then going and seeing the museum with, with all this history, the idea that they'd come back to full circle to like the US effectively using Panama as a. As an externalization of its own border. Like the US sent its Homeland Security secretary to the inauguration of the current Panamanian president, like it was really just, I know, not great. Like it didn't make me happy.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. I mean there's a long history of that kind of collaboration between those governments. For better and for worse. And so that's really what we're going to look into today. You know, the history of U.S. intervention in Panama so that we can hopefully understand why comparisons are being drawn to the US invasion of Venezuela here in 2026.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

So in case you didn't know just some basic facts about Panama, it's a country on the isthmus connecting Central America to South America, bordering Costa Rica and Colombia. It has a population of just over 4 million people. And it is best known, of course, for its canal, which is a real feat of human engineering with an unfortunate tragedy behind it that links the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean via the Caribbean Sea. This canal is one of the principal reasons why the US has so long been invested in the fate of this little Spanish speaking country. So you see, to go all the way back to 1821, where as a member of the newly minted Republic of Gran Colombia, the country gained independence from the crumbling Spanish Empire. But after that, Republic of Gran Colombia dissolved in 1831, Panama remained part of Colombia until, with US backing, it seceded in 1903. Now, Panama had actually tried to gain its independence from Colombia before then in 1830, 1831 and 1840. But among many other reasons, despite being part of Colombia, it didn't have any roads connecting it to the rest of Colombia due to the Darien Gap. Yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about that part of the world? Because I know you have a lot of intimate knowledge of it.

[James Stout]

Yeah, absolutely. There's still no road to go through the Darien, actually. It's extremely mountainous and extremely jungly and it has some very large and powerful rivers. Right. You know, I spent time in the Darien myself. When you talk to indigenous people who live in the Darien now, I remember speaking to a guy, Senor Bonillo was his name, and he said to me, like, how could we be unkind to immigrants? Many of us are migrants too. We go to Panama for education. I mean, Senna Front, the Panamanian Border Patrol, military are there in small numbers. But like, essentially you are outside of the state in this area. Right. Certainly in terms of provision of services, there's very little. And that's because largely it is geographically very difficult to access, to get there. Just to sort of paint people a picture, I took a plane, then I drove all the way to the paved road till that ended. And then I hitched a ride on a truck, all the way on the unpaved road until that ended. And then I hitched a ride in a dugout canoe that was literally A log that someone hollowed out. And I took that for about five hours and then I walk for a while and that was how I got to where I stayed. It's still extremely difficult for people to cross. And I guess I like to read James Scott. I think about the way he thought about the art of not being governed. And it's still one of those areas that it's hard for the state to extract tribute from.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's impressive to me that despite these challenges, thousands of people manage to traverse through the Darien Gap every year.

[James Stout]

Yeah. I mean, people wouldn't do it if they didn't think that what they were going to leave behind was worse. But it is one of the most harrowing journeys, one of the most difficult journeys a person can make. Like you're shimming along cliff edges on, you know, a few inches of rock and if you fall, you will die. You're crossing a river, a river that was chest high for me. I'm 6 foot 3 and people are carrying toddlers, babies. Someone gave birth in the jungle while I was there. It's unimaginable. And like people die every day. I saw that myself. Like, it's an incredibly dangerous and difficult journey, but people take it because they want a better chance at life.

[Andrew Sage]

Right, yeah, yeah. And so you could imagine if it's so difficult to traverse even now, how much more difficult it would have been back then with even less infrastructure between the regions of Panama and Colombia.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

So at that point in time, Panama was mainly conducting trade, which was a state at the time was mainly conducting trade with its Caribbean neighbors rather than Colombia's capital. You know, they were very geographically isolated from the rest of Colombia. But despite that fact, Panama only succeeded in gaining its independence with the help of the US as American ambitions and local elite ambitions aligned for development of the Canal. Now all of this in what follows was recounted in Emperors in the the Hidden History of the US in Panama by John Lindsay Poland, which I picked up from my library. And it was really a fantastic book that served as my main resource for this research. In Lindsay Poland's words, Panama was a long standing laboratory of US imperial power. And some of the things I found out about in this book I never heard of anywhere. And it really shook me that these kinds of things were happening, you know, at this crossroads of continents.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

So I've been saying. The US involvement in the country even preceded its independence with 11American interventions taking place in just the pre independent state of Panama between 1856 and 1910, 2. And their rationale for bringing in their military usually involved, you know, claims of protecting American interests, particularly during insurrectionary or revolutionary activity in the country. And of course, because it's America, they always had a heavily racialized approach to the region. You know, they saw the Colombian army as ignorant mongrels, and they saw the Panama Isthmus civilians as savage and animal like.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Especially as Americans and American capital were involved in the construction of the Panama Canal Railway, which was built between 1850 and 1855 to facilitate the Californian gold rush. You see, America was ironed Panama for a long time because they saw it as an appealing site for a Trans Isthmus Canal, the next big project in international trade. And aside from their direct interventions, they were signing treaties concerning Panama even before Panama was independent. While it was expanding its territory through the conquest of Mexico, the US signed the Bidlak Treaty with Colombia in 1846 to guarantee Colombian control over Panama in exchange for free access to any future canal. As we all know, America always keeps its promises. So only four years later, in 1850, the US and England signed the Clayton Bulwer Treaty, which ensured their joint cooperation in any future canal. You notice I said the US and England signed that treaty.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Because Columbia was not involved at all.

[James Stout]

Yeah. Are you familiar with the Scottish attempt to colonize the Darien?

[Andrew Sage]

No, I. That didn't come up. I may have missed that.

[James Stout]

I think it's previous to the dates you're covering. But Scotland attempted to colonize the Dalian. And think of the Darien scheme. Basically, much of the Scottish bourgeoisie pooled their capital to do this. Right. The idea that it would be a Scottish colony, Obviously, at that time, colonialism was seen as the route to national security and independence.

[Andrew Sage]

Prestige.

[James Stout]

Yeah. And they wanted to keep up with the English who were busy colonizing and pillaging much of the world. So they attempted to set up a colony in one of the least hospitable places on the planet. Unsuccessfully. You know, people got malaria. When I was there, I was told that every type of malaria is present in the gap. Just because you have such a global population of people. Right. That the mosquitoes are biting someone from East Africa, then they're biting you, then they're biting someone from West Africa, South America, Nepal. You know, their mosquitoes are getting a global buffet. So back then, obviously, still malaria.

[Andrew Sage]

It's like a mosquito convention.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah. It's like a mosquito vector disease gold mine. The Scottish bourgeoisie significantly lost to such an extent that, like, we can point to this scheme of One of the reasons that Scotland continues to be colonized by England. Right. Yeah, yeah. It's wild. I think you will probably learn about it now if you're going to school. If you're going to school in Scotland or you've been to school in Scotland, you learned about it. I'd love to hear from you. But. Yeah. The Darien scheme was this kind of idea of a Scottish empire that ended up completely backfiring.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. I just looked it up as the late 1690s.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

To set up a colony called New Caledonia.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

I mean. And that was their first attempt at setting up a colony. I mean, way. Way to pick them.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah. Right. Like, throw a dart at the map and you couldn't land at a place that is less like Scotland. It does rain a lot. Other than that.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. I mean, that's like trying to set up your first colony in, like, Antarctica or something.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I don't know how. Whether they just felt like, it looks like no one else is hanging around there. And obviously at that point in time, they weren't concerned with indigenous people. Right. Like, they felt like there was no other state projecting its force there. Or like, what. I don't understand how they. Or because they. I think I read somewhere that there have been several attempts to build a canal through the Dalian. I think it's actually slightly narrower there. So whether they were early on in that and just thought, right, well, we'll establish ourselves here, and then as we'll build a canal a bit later.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. And, well, of course, it didn't quite work out.

[James Stout]

Yeah. It didn't go that way for them, sadly.

[Menelik Lumumba]

1969. Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. And at Morehouse College, the students make their move.

[Hans Charles]

These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up. The members of the board of trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles.

[Menelik Lumumba]

I'm Menelik Lumumba.

[Hans Charles]

Listen to the A building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts you live for.

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[Andrew Sage]

So the US and England, they signed this treaty to ensure joint cooperation in a future canal. And then during the American Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln advanced a proposal to establish a colony of emancipated and deported black Americans in southwestern Panama because, you know, he didn't believe black and white people could live together.

[James Stout]

Right? Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

This proposal was scrapped due to Colombian Central American and black American opposition. But it's interesting to think about there being almost a Liberia in the Western hemisphere, you know, because the Liberian project was an attempt at doing similarly.

[James Stout]

Yeah, that is wild to think about.

[Andrew Sage]

And so after quite a few of their pre Panamanian independence military interventions, it's quite a mouthful. Thank you, Pastor Andrew. The US was itching to build the canal that they always wanted. They were feening for a gateway to the Pacific. And they did not like that when France tried to build their own canal through Panama from 1879 to 1889 that they didn't have, you know, enough of a say in it. Because why the hell is France in America's backyard as far as they're concerned?

[James Stout]

Yeah, right.

[Andrew Sage]

The Monroe Doctrine was established in 1823, so it had to be activated then and there. And of course they didn't just want a canal for mercantile or geopolitical reasons. Remember, they had just conquered several states in Mexico and reached the Pacific sea to shining sea, as they like to say. Unluckily for them, there were still quite a lot of Native Americans and Mexicans still living in the western plains and west coast. Plus you had a lot of Asian immigration to the west coast as well. And the leaders in the Americas didn't exactly appreciate that, you know, they wanted northern European stock to populate the western coast unpolluted by having to share a railroad with black and brown Panamanians. So you have to get a canal so the whites don't have to step foot off their boats and mingle with the locals, you know, because then they could stay on their boats, they could go through. They never have to breathe the same air as the local inhabitants of Panama.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

And so after wrapping up their war with Spain, having newly minted colonies in the Philippines, Guam and Hawaii, they really, really wanted a maritime shortcut to continue their great empire building ambitions. Because, you see, having to spend 67 days to reach from San Francisco to Cuba, they didn't like that. You know, going all the way around the Patagonia and Horn and all that, that's not fun. So the US created an opportunity for itself after Colombia's civil war between the Liberals and the conservatives that, you know, ranged between 1899 to 1902. Here's what happened in Panama City. Most of the white elites tried to stay out of the conflict. But in the rural interior, there was a different story. As the Liberals found support among the mestizo peasants in Panama, the civil war was less focused on parties, whether you're liberal or conservative. It started off like that, but became a mass uprising against the distant conservative government in Bogota. So after several major battles, Liberal forces had taken control of almost all of Panama's interior. And that's when the US decided to step in. They used the Bidlak Treaty of 1846 as justification to bring in their military to protect transit across Panama, in particular the railway. Thus, the Liberals were unable to finish their victory and had to sign a peace agreement. And in the following months, Liberal forces regrouped and once again took control of nearly all of Panama except Colon and Panama City. And once again, the US got involved and blocked Liberal entry into those cities. The US made it impossible for the Liberals to win. So they surrendered and signed one last peace Treaty in November 1902, ending the civil war. And all that for what? Because more than 60% of Panama's cattle was wiped out. Agriculture had collapsed. The armies on both sides committed atrocities. You know, thousands of civilians fled into the mountains. Entire towns were emptied as people were escaping conscription and violence. Have you ever read the book 100.

[James Stout]

Years of Solitude when I was like in or just out of high school? I did, yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Okay. I read it last year. So when I was doing this research, it was like top of my mind.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Because, you know, part of that book covers that cover Colombian Civil War.

[James Stout]

Yeah, I should read it again.

[Andrew Sage]

It was pretty good. Had some very weird stuff. It was pretty good, right?

[James Stout]

Yeah, it's good to. I'm trying to read more fiction right now. It helps me.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. Even though it was fiction, I think it paints a really grim picture of that civil war.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

And so I could have. In reading this, I could have pictured what was taking place because the book was over.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

You know, rural Panama was absolutely devastated, and yet the transit zone was, of course, untouched. The railroad and the ports, the commerce kept on going. And with the liberal peasantry defeated by the conservatives in the U.S. the conservative elites in Panama City were best positioned to negotiate for their own ambitions. With the war over, President Roosevelt was looking to finally negotiate for Panama canal rights. And if he couldn't get a deal with the French Canal company that was ready to sell or the government of Colombia, he had permission from Congress to pursue a canal in Nicaragua instead.

[James Stout]

Interesting.

[Andrew Sage]

The French company was definitely ready to offload their investment because, you know, there were multiple attempts to set up a canal. The French had their attempt, and they were ready to get it off of their hands. Right. But the Colombian government rejected America's Hey Heran Treaty, which offered what they considered an inadequate $10 million in exchange for sweeping canal rights. So America made them an offer they couldn't refuse. What happened next was that Roosevelt and a French shareholder named Philippe Bunau Varilla struck up a little side deal of their own. And the US Navy got orders to prevent Colombia from crushing any uprising on the isthmus. And with the circumstances being what, they were on the ground in Panama without Colombian intervention due to the US Blockade, it didn't take long for Panamanian forces to declare independence. Finally, in 1903, the Bidlak Treaty the US had signed with Colombia was supposed to protect Colombia's control over Panama and ensure free transit throughout the isthmus. And the US did basically the complete opposite. You know, that's what makes them such an excellent partner on the global stage. You can always count on them to uphold the highest standards of moral and diplomatic decency. So before you know it, America was recognizing a newly independent Panama and drafting up a treaty with Bunau Varilla, who the new Panama government had given permission to negotiate a deal. But I'm thinking that they may not have known that Bunau Varilla had already practically sign them away. They didn't like the fact that they were beholden to a treaty that no Panamanian had signed. But the US Made sure that the Panamanian government understood that if they didn't like the treaty, the Navy could always just let the Colombian army come in to nip their independence in the bud. You know, it's like, oh, you don't. You don't like working with us? Well, you know, it'd be a real shame if the Colombian navy came back in to the picture. So the new Canal Treaty gave the US far more than they had even expected to get from the deal. They claimed permanent control over a 10 mile wide canal zone, inherited the French Canal works and the railroad, and secured the right to seize land anywhere in Panama if they deemed it necessary for the Canal's defence, operation or sanitation and trust, and believe they would use that privilege to seize land 19 different times between 1908 and 1931. Cumulatively hundreds of square miles, thousands of acres, often without notice or compensation and always justified as necessary for canal defence. The Canal Zone was removed from Panamanian courts altogether and the US was authorized to police Panama City and Colon and build military garrisons. Panama's new constitution made it an effective US protectorate. Article 136 explicitly allowed the United States to intervene militarily anywhere in Panama to restore public peace and constitutional order. Civilization, as Roosevelt argued, was the urgent mandate for all these actions toward building the canal.

[James Stout]

Jesus.

[Andrew Sage]

Construction officially began in 1904 in a Panama exhausted by civil war, quanted by the French failure, and politically dependent on Washington. So you said you, you had been to the Canal Zone and the museums and stuff.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Can you tell me a bit about what you know about the canal's construction?

[James Stout]

They were very good at this part. I remember this part very well. They had accounts from the workers, you know, the people who were in some cases like essentially forced labor.

[Andrew Sage]

Right.

[James Stout]

They had accounts of what their lives were like. They had like sort of the ephemera of their lives, which is always in like, you know, like in museums. It helps to create a picture. Right. They're like the sort of the things that they were fed, the shitty shoes that they got given pictures of the like sleeping situations and the accounts from doctors. Right. Because a lot of people became unwell because they were exposed to all these conditions and diseases that they hadn't been exposed to before. So they did a good job. I felt of like painting how horrendous life was for people who were digging out the Panama Canal.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah.

[James Stout]

They had a two tier system. Right. I think it was the gold ticket.

[Andrew Sage]

Yes.

[James Stout]

Yep. They were explaining how life was so much more difficult the lower down that system you found yourself.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah. The whole construction of this feat of engineering was, you know, rife with suffering.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

And that suffering often came like in a very racialized way.

[James Stout]

Yes.

[Andrew Sage]

As you mentioned, there was a gold rule and a silver rule.

[James Stout]

That's it. Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

So even prior to canal construction, Panama was Already a very racially divided society. You had the white elites in the capital, you had the mestizo peasants, you had poor black and mulatto communities, and you also had the indigenous peoples who were not even counted in official census counts.

[James Stout]

Oh, wow.

[Andrew Sage]

And among the Canal workforce in particular, it was quite a lot of black labourers who were either descendants of people emancipated from slavery in 1852, or. Or migrants from the British Caribbean who were drawn to Panama during the railroad construction project and the French canal construction project. And so the US took this social landscape and made it worse by introducing racial hierarchy with the Gold rule in the silver row that determined your pay, your housing, your medical care and even how you were buried. You know, the American workers, the white American workers in the Canal's construction occupied the gold role and the Caribbean labourers were pushed onto the silver role. They had to perform the most dangerous work under the worst conditions. And so during the US construction phase alone, roughly 5,600 workers died from disease and accidents, and the overwhelming majority were the Caribbean labourers. Sadly, their deaths were treated as expendable losses in an engineering project framed as a triumph of civilisation. The canal construction finally concluded in 1914. And so, after its independence, during the canal construction and afterwards, Panama faced eight further US military interventions, including the famous 1989 invasion, which we'll get to in the next episode. But take a guess as to what their rationale was for these interventions.

[James Stout]

Are they protecting business interests, US capital?

[Andrew Sage]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Protecting US citizens and property, maintaining control and stability, preserving US strategic and political interests? All that usual stuff.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Particularly whenever Panamanians were struggling for their rights against the elites, the US would get involved.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

The US advised elections, they oversaw the police force, they vetoed public spending whenever it wanted, and the US bases lined the Canal with thousands of troops, explicitly for the purpose of maintaining quiet and protecting property in Panama. Panama's whole political history in the 20th century was basically shaped and dictated by US interests. In 1904, when General Esteban Huertas threatened revolt, US officials pressured Panama's president to fire him and dissolve the army entirely. In 1910, when Vice President Carlos Mendoza, a liberal mulatto married to a black woman, seemed likely to win the presidency, the US Chief of Mission, Richard Marsh, threatened occupation if he were elected, so Mendoza withdrew his candidacy. During World War I, the garrison commander used occupation to impose moral reforms by shutting down saloons and prostitution and publicly denouncing Panamanian cities as dens of vice and in the countryside, ostensibly to protect American landowners US troops drunkenly abused, stole and burned homes for two whole years until they finally withdrew. And in 1925, the US came into Panama City to crush a renters strike. Panama also became a regional launchpad for the U.S. empire. The Marines that were stationed there were repeatedly deployed in Nicaragua, Mexico and beyond. For the US Empire, the costs could always be externalized to Panama. Panama was an imperial laboratory for the US to test ideas and weapons they felt were risky to test at home. During World War II, they tested various chemical weapons in Panama on nature and people with minimal disclosure and almost no regard for long term environmental and human consequences.

[James Stout]

Jesus.

[Andrew Sage]

They also left behind unexploded munitions.

[James Stout]

That is horrible.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, it gets worse.

[James Stout]

Okay, great.

[Andrew Sage]

In the 1950s and 60s, US officials seriously proposed using nuclear explosions.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

To carve a new sea level canal through Panama. So you've heard about this.

[James Stout]

Yeah. New king. The Darien was their one, one of their little strategies that they thought about. I think they thought about again when the bicentennial of the United states, that'd be 1976, one of the things they wanted to do was complete the, the Pan American highway, have it run all the way up from the northern tip of Alaska, I guess, or I think goes from Canada, actually, and all the way down to Argentina again. They were like, yeah, can we, can we just nuke the Darien and we'll just join him up and it'll be fine.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah. They were really gung ho about nukes.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

At that point in time in history, you know.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

The Panama Canal. In case you don't know those of you listeners at home, the Panama Canal is not a sea level canal. Actually. It climbs a mountain, Loki, you know, so it has several steps where it's like the water is released and there's like a floating mechanism and it's, it's kind of inconvenient because usually there's traffic backed up of boats waiting for their chance to get into the canal. And so the idea of a sea level canal is, you know, it'd be so much more convenient if you didn't have to wait for all those mechanisms to, you know, drain and fill and all those different things.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

But nuking the canal to create a new sea level canal is probably not the best idea.

[James Stout]

No. Yeah. It's wild to think of it back then. I guess they got nukes relatively recently. They were like, okay, what can we do with these? What else can we. Now you'll see when you're in Panama City, you see boats sort of hanging out around the canal, just waiting to enter those locks.

[Andrew Sage]

And I mean, obviously, the consequences of a nuclear irrigation can now be disastrous. Entire regions would have been irradiated, populations would have been displaced, ecosystems permanently altered. And yet they seriously, with a straight face, consider this plan because, you know, who cares about the people outside the Imperial Center.

[James Stout]

Sure. Yeah. Like, what are the embarrass people and the guna people who live down there? Like, what do they matter to them? Right.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah.

[James Stout]

And this is after they've dropped a nuke. It's not like they're like postulating here.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. It's not like they don't know what nukes do.

[James Stout]

Yeah. They've seen this happen in Japan. Right. Where like a decade since they know that it's still killing people. Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

There are places and canals and structures that have been irrigated, caves dug and stuff, using dynamite, you know, tnt, you know, basic munitions and explosive devices, and that's one thing. Right. I don't know. It's like more of that. It's like, let's just go as big as we can go. Right.

[James Stout]

It's not understanding the fundamental difference. Right. Like, a nuclear blast is of an entirely different nature to. Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

I mean, it could have very easily ended up affecting the US as well.

[James Stout]

Right. Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

You know, the air currents could have carried the fallout into the southern us, into the west coast, you know.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Into other countries in the region as well.

[James Stout]

Yeah. I visited one of the places that the United States nuked after World War II. Right. In the Republic of the Marshall Islands. And yeah. They completely failed to account for even prevailing winds. Right. Like the fallout directly engulfed small Japanese fishing vessel. That was just happened to be. Because they didn't tell anyone.

[Andrew Sage]

Right.

[James Stout]

And then they just dropped a nuclear. Boy, they told some people. Obviously, they evacuated. People are living on the island, but they dropped a nuclear bomb. And then we're just like, oh, wow, it's blown off over there. Did the result in people being severely irradiated?

[Andrew Sage]

You know, it's like bunch of scientists, you know, bend their necks and furiously scribble on some notes. Fascinating.

[James Stout]

People have attempted to go back to their island because at one point they were told that they could and they absolutely, like, it wasn't safe for them. But like the. The coconuts and the crabs and the fish and the reefs are still irradiated. They're still not safe for them. People still have one of the highest rates of stillbirth in the world.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah.

[James Stout]

The stories they tell about miscarrying pregnancies are heartbreaking.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah.

[James Stout]

Because they didn't know what was going on. Right.

[Andrew Sage]

The human environmental impact is just awful.

[James Stout]

Yeah, it's terrible.

[Andrew Sage]

And so it took resistance from Panamanians, from scientists, and from a growing global environmental movement to put an end to this proposal. Now, as is the nature of interventions, after a certain point they start to wane because, you know, the intervening power has created the setup that they find preferential. You know, so while they're setting up, they may have to intervene on repeated occasions, but once they get to a certain point where their control over that area is crystallized, they don't have to intervene as explicitly as often. So direct US Interventions waned as time went on, but the tensions continued to build in Panama for independence from the US and these tensions flared in January 1964, which would get the ball rolling for a new treaty between the countries that would replace the previous He Banau Varia treaty. So since that 1903 treaty, Panamanians wanted it revisited and revised. Remember, they didn't want to agree to it in the first place. They were kind of coerced into its terms. But with the U.S. s proposal to create a new sea level canal, with or without nukes, which would require cooperation with the Panamanians, they would be forced to take those Panamanian demands into consideration. And so, as a concession to Panamanian nationalism, US President John F. Kennedy and Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson developed a policy that would fly the Panamanian flag alongside the American flag. Ooh la la. In certain parts of the Canal zone. And then JFK was assassinated in November 1963. And then in January of the following year, Balboa High School, which was an American school in the Canal Zone, refused to fly either flag. So on January 9, 1964, American students decided to raise the American flag for freedom or whatever. And Panamanian students from Panama's National Institute march to the school to raise their own flag. And then there's a scuffle, and then the Panamanian flag is torn. And then that scuffle becomes a riot where 24 Panamanian civilians and four US soldiers were killed in the fighting.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

And hundreds of Panamanian civilians were injured by the American crackdown.

[James Stout]

That Panamanian flag is in the museum. The Panama Canal Museum.

[Andrew Sage]

The one that got torn?

[James Stout]

Yep.

[Andrew Sage]

Oh, that's impressive. I have to go and see that then.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah, it's really. It's a good museum.

[Andrew Sage]

So that's a real big piece of history because that whole riot led to everything else.

[James Stout]

Yeah, no, that is like. It's a pivotal, like, artifact of their national History.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah. It's like for want of a nail, the horse was lost. It's like for want of a ripped flag.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Panamanian independence was lost.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Obviously there's no boil down to that, but it's such a unique artifact of history.

[James Stout]

Yeah, it's cool to be like this pivotal moment, like this thing was present.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah.

[James Stout]

Sometimes when I'm in Spain, I'll kick around antiques markets and find like, like a newspaper. Just think that this newspaper was on the street the same day that the Spanish military was defeated in Barcelona. You can see sometimes people sheltering behind newspaper stands, right. As they exchange fire with the soldiers and think like, oh, this thing was present at this pivotal moment.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah, it was there for that piece of history, that moment in time.

[James Stout]

Yeah. I like to acquire those things when I, when I can.

[Andrew Sage]

Something I would like to acquire though is a bit of rubble or something from one of their other actions that day. The protesters also burned several American buildings, including tire plans, airlines and the U.S. information Agency. I'm wondering if that piece of history is also in the museums.

[James Stout]

Yeah, I think those buildings are still around, like some or some of those canals, some of the Canal Company buildings are still around because you can, you can see them once you're driving around.

[Andrew Sage]

And so in response to that whole riot situation, the Panamanian President, Roberto Chiari cut diplomatic relations with the US and demanded a renegotiation of the treaty. A few Months later, in April 1964, diplomatic ties were re established in an effort to resolve the conflict between the countries. These negotiations would be ongoing for years afterwards. In fact, one of the reasons the idea of the nuclear excavation was considered in the first place was that it didn't require as much Panamanian labour cooperation as a typical canal project would. And because tensions were so tense with Panama, they were like, let's circumvent them and just open it up ourselves. But when the nuclear canal project collapsed, and with mounting pressure from the Panamanians, the stage was set for the US to pull back its more direct and open meddling in the country, at least for a while. JFK's Vice President Lyndon Johnson won the presidency in November 1964. And as the anniversary of the riots approached, he resolved to figure out that new treaty, explore sea level canal preparations and settle things with the contingency of Americans in office who sought to preserve America's perpetual ownership of the Canal Zone, including the famous white supremacist arch conservative Strom Thurmond. If you know anything about Strom Thurmond, you know that, like, fork found in kitchen. You know, the fact that this guy was against Panamanians having control over the canal is not surprising. This is the guy who set a country record for filibustering against the Civil Rights Act.

[James Stout]

Yeah, yeah. I think it was beaten recently by Cory Booker, who set a world record for filibustering about not very much.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, I think I heard about that.

[James Stout]

Yeah. He talked about Donald Trump for a while, and then he finished up and went and voted for a bunch of Trump appointees.

[Andrew Sage]

It's like the Democratic Party response is like, you stop that, you meanie. And then they just do whatever. Yeah, whatever Trump wants anyway.

[James Stout]

Yeah, you're not allowed to do, you know, you're not allowed to do that. You're breaking the rules.

[Andrew Sage]

That's against the rules.

[James Stout]

Yeah. They summoned the Reddit moderators is the Democratic response. But, yeah, if there was a cause during the time he was in office and it would have made the world better, you can probably count on Strom being against it.

[Andrew Sage]

Yeah, yeah, pretty much, yeah. And so the Americans, they managed to scrape together a treaty in 1967, but the Panamanians didn't ratify it. And in the following year, 1968, Panama is overtaken by a military coup. Dun, dun, dun. So if you want to know what will happen with the treaty, with Panama's political future, and how all of this does or does not relate to current conditions in Venezuela, because I know I have that thread still dangling.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sage]

Stay tuned for the next episode. This has been It Could Happen Here. I'm Andrew Sage. I'm here with James Stout, and as always, all power to all the people. Peace.

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[Andrew Sage]

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