Episode Summary: "Should You Flee the United States?"
Podcast: It Could Happen Here
Hosts: Robert Evans (Host), James Stout, Garrison Davis
Date: March 26, 2025
Overview
This episode tackles a question heavily on the minds of listeners: Should you flee the United States as political and social conditions worsen, especially for marginalized groups? The hosts examine the practical and ethical dimensions of leaving, share personal experiences and nuanced perspectives, and consider the “politics of escape” in a world where no place may be truly safe from contemporary threats. Instead of alarmism, the conversation prioritizes clear-eyed analysis, options, solidarity, and realism.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Rising Anxiety About Leaving the U.S.
- Many listeners, especially from marginalized backgrounds, are asking whether now is the time to leave the country due to increasingly hostile policies from the (fictional, podcast-context) Trump administration.
- The hosts stress they don’t want to inspire panic, but acknowledge the sense of crisis is at an all-time high.
- [04:34] Host: “It does feel close towards like, the bad nightmare scenario than kind of I've ever thought it has before.”
2. Who Should Consider Leaving? (And Why Most Can't)
- The hosts are clear: If you’re targeted, facing imminent threat, and have viable opportunities elsewhere, you shouldn’t feel guilty about leaving.
- [05:14] James Stout: "If you have the opportunity to leave and you think that’s the right thing for you, then you should do it. You shouldn’t feel bad about it.”
- For most people, emigration—especially as an asylum seeker—is “highly unpleasant,” dangerous, and often not an option.
- [07:15] Garrison Davis: “It will, if large numbers of people start leaving the US, only get worse… if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be something you enjoy again."
3. Dual Citizenship: Options are Power
- If you can get dual citizenship (by heritage, finances, or employment), do it—regardless of your intention to leave.
- [09:47] James Stout: “Even if you plan to stay here, if you have the ability to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now.”
4. Politics of Escape & Staying to Fight
- The hosts are cautious about treating flight as a solution for everyone and worry about abandoning communities.
- [10:06] Host: “I don’t really subscribe to a politics of escape. Even the idea of fleeing states, I feel a little bit iffy about now… a whole bunch of trans people here are not willing to leave their home. This is their home and it always will be.”
- There’s value in staying and resisting, drawing inspiration from Black, Indigenous, migrant, and queer communities who have survived and found joy in hostile circumstances.
- [23:17] Garrison Davis: “Within the Kurdish Freedom movement… bershwidan jiyane means resistance is life. We should remember that for whole groups of people, many of whom we featured here, if they had all just left, they would no longer exist in the way that they exist now.”
5. The "Onion" of Precarity: Different Levels of Risk
- Not all threats are equal: an undocumented immigrant, a student on a visa, or a citizen with marginalized identities all face unique risks and possible remedies.
- [16:36] Host: “There’s different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals… as dangerous as being a trans anarchist is, that is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who’s about to get literally hunted down by ICE.”
6. Community & Solidarity as Survival Tools
- Survival and resistance are possible—even in extremely adverse environments—when communities build solidarity, look after each other, and refuse to surrender.
- [19:13] Garrison Davis: "Indigenous communities… continue to exist in this country despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them… the way they have got through this is together, and that’s the way that we will get through this, too.”
- [22:31] Garrison Davis: “And that community structure is an option, too. People showing up for you and you showing up for them, that is one of your options.”
7. Challenging the "Safe Haven" Myth
- There’s no magical, risk-free place. Transphobia, political oppression, and anti-migrant sentiment are global, and sometimes “blue” states or foreign cities may not be as welcoming as expected.
- [37:56] Host: “There is really no real escape… there is no mythical safe haven where you can live your free life and never have to face hardship.”
8. Ethics of Escape vs. Responsibility
- Flight is easier for the privileged and can mean abandoning the most at-risk. The hosts advocate for using privilege and resources not for escape, but for solidarity.
- [36:17] Host: “Part of what my opposition to this is you’re essentially abandoning a whole bunch of the most at risk people.”
9. What Should You DO? (Actionable Advice)
- Get a passport, explore dual citizenship, and increase your options—but also deepen solidarity, stay engaged, and don’t act solely from panic.
- [41:41] Host: “I think the most concise one I have is that you should be giving yourself as many options as you can. If that includes applying for Irish citizenship because your grandfather is Irish, then, hey, why not go for it, right?”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On Community:
- [19:13] Garrison Davis: "The way that they have got through this is together, and that's the way that we will get through this, too..."
- [22:31] Garrison Davis: "That community structure is an option, too... it will also bring you joy and you will feel safer..."
On Migration Realities:
- [07:15] Garrison Davis: "Seeking asylum is an extremely different process. It strips you of all dignity... people die migrating."
- [17:08] Host: "Groups that have been able to come here the past few years that are going to be seen as 'illegal' by the White House and ICE..."
On Dual Citizenship:
- [09:47] James Stout: "Even if you plan to stay here, if you have the ability to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now."
On the “Politics of Escape”:
- [34:15] Host: “As goes the US goes the world... maybe if it gets to the point where large numbers of people are fleeing the US we might see some of that same anti-migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the US...”
On Political Inspiration:
- [23:17] Garrison Davis: “...bershwidan jiyane means resistance is life. And we should remember that for whole groups of people...if they had all just left, they would no longer exist in the way that they exist now.”
On False Safe Havens:
- [37:56] Host: “I’ve been called slurs on the street way more in Portland, Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia... There is no mythical safe haven.”
On Responsibility and Solidarity:
- [36:17] Host: “You’re essentially abandoning a whole bunch of the like most at risk people...I want to be here for them and help them, not in a patronizing way, but in a solidarity way.”
Timestamps of Key Segments
- [02:58] – Introduction of the topic: Fleeing the U.S.
- [04:53] – What does leaving entail? Should you feel guilty?
- [07:15] – The harsh reality of asylum and migration
- [09:47] – Pursuing dual citizenship
- [16:36] – The “onion” of precarity: immigration status and risk
- [19:13] – Community and historical survival strategies
- [23:17] – Lessons from Kurdish and Indigenous resistance
- [34:15] – The myth of safety abroad; global far-right trends
- [36:17] – Ethical concerns: Who gets left behind?
- [37:56] – The illusion of blue-state or foreign “safe havens”
- [41:41] – Options: Practical takeaways and responsibilities
Tone & Style
The conversation is urgent yet measured, sardonic, and compassionate—balancing gallows humor with concrete advice and moral seriousness. The hosts employ personal anecdotes, highlight community wisdom, and disarm their own privilege to keep the discussion honest and accessible.
Final Takeaways
- Don’t panic—but don’t be complacent.
- Increase your options (passports, citizenship, community networks).
- Understand that migration is more complicated, expensive, and dangerous than it appears.
- There are no perfect refuges—but there is strength and joy in collective resistance.
- Leaving is not a solution for most—and that's okay.
- Solidarity, preparation, and mutual aid are key to surviving and resisting oppression.
- Think hard about privilege, responsibility, and who stands to lose if the privileged flee.
Closing Quote
[41:41] Host:
"It’s certainly annoying that we don’t have a concise yes or no answer, but there isn’t a concise yes or no answer. I think the most concise one I have is that you should be giving yourself as many options as you can."
For full episodes and more resources, visit It Could Happen Here’s website.