Should You Flee the United States?

Summary

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Episode Summary: "Should You Flee the United States?"

Podcast: It Could Happen Here
Hosts: Robert Evans (Host), James Stout, Garrison Davis
Date: March 26, 2025

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Overview

This episode tackles a question heavily on the minds of listeners: Should you flee the United States as political and social conditions worsen, especially for marginalized groups? The hosts examine the practical and ethical dimensions of leaving, share personal experiences and nuanced perspectives, and consider the “politics of escape” in a world where no place may be truly safe from contemporary threats. Instead of alarmism, the conversation prioritizes clear-eyed analysis, options, solidarity, and realism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rising Anxiety About Leaving the U.S.

• Many listeners, especially from marginalized backgrounds, are asking whether now is the time to leave the country due to increasingly hostile policies from the (fictional, podcast-context) Trump administration.
• The hosts stress they don’t want to inspire panic, but acknowledge the sense of crisis is at an all-time high.
  • [04:34] Host: “It does feel close towards like, the bad nightmare scenario than kind of I've ever thought it has before.”

2. Who Should Consider Leaving? (And Why Most Can't)

• The hosts are clear: If you’re targeted, facing imminent threat, and have viable opportunities elsewhere, you shouldn’t feel guilty about leaving.
  • [05:14] James Stout: "If you have the opportunity to leave and you think that’s the right thing for you, then you should do it. You shouldn’t feel bad about it.”
• For most people, emigration—especially as an asylum seeker—is “highly unpleasant,” dangerous, and often not an option.
  • [07:15] Garrison Davis: “It will, if large numbers of people start leaving the US, only get worse… if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be something you enjoy again."

3. Dual Citizenship: Options are Power

• If you can get dual citizenship (by heritage, finances, or employment), do it—regardless of your intention to leave.
  • [09:47] James Stout: “Even if you plan to stay here, if you have the ability to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now.”

4. Politics of Escape & Staying to Fight

• The hosts are cautious about treating flight as a solution for everyone and worry about abandoning communities.
  • [10:06] Host: “I don’t really subscribe to a politics of escape. Even the idea of fleeing states, I feel a little bit iffy about now… a whole bunch of trans people here are not willing to leave their home. This is their home and it always will be.”
• There’s value in staying and resisting, drawing inspiration from Black, Indigenous, migrant, and queer communities who have survived and found joy in hostile circumstances.
  • [23:17] Garrison Davis: “Within the Kurdish Freedom movement… bershwidan jiyane means resistance is life. We should remember that for whole groups of people, many of whom we featured here, if they had all just left, they would no longer exist in the way that they exist now.”

5. The "Onion" of Precarity: Different Levels of Risk

• Not all threats are equal: an undocumented immigrant, a student on a visa, or a citizen with marginalized identities all face unique risks and possible remedies.
  • [16:36] Host: “There’s different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals… as dangerous as being a trans anarchist is, that is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who’s about to get literally hunted down by ICE.”

6. Community & Solidarity as Survival Tools

• Survival and resistance are possible—even in extremely adverse environments—when communities build solidarity, look after each other, and refuse to surrender.
  • [19:13] Garrison Davis: "Indigenous communities… continue to exist in this country despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them… the way they have got through this is together, and that’s the way that we will get through this, too.”
  • [22:31] Garrison Davis: “And that community structure is an option, too. People showing up for you and you showing up for them, that is one of your options.”

7. Challenging the "Safe Haven" Myth

• There’s no magical, risk-free place. Transphobia, political oppression, and anti-migrant sentiment are global, and sometimes “blue” states or foreign cities may not be as welcoming as expected.
  • [37:56] Host: “There is really no real escape… there is no mythical safe haven where you can live your free life and never have to face hardship.”

8. Ethics of Escape vs. Responsibility

• Flight is easier for the privileged and can mean abandoning the most at-risk. The hosts advocate for using privilege and resources not for escape, but for solidarity.
  • [36:17] Host: “Part of what my opposition to this is you’re essentially abandoning a whole bunch of the most at risk people.”

9. What Should You DO? (Actionable Advice)

• Get a passport, explore dual citizenship, and increase your options—but also deepen solidarity, stay engaged, and don’t act solely from panic.
  • [41:41] Host: “I think the most concise one I have is that you should be giving yourself as many options as you can. If that includes applying for Irish citizenship because your grandfather is Irish, then, hey, why not go for it, right?”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Community:

• [19:13] Garrison Davis: "The way that they have got through this is together, and that's the way that we will get through this, too..."
• [22:31] Garrison Davis: "That community structure is an option, too... it will also bring you joy and you will feel safer..."

On Migration Realities:

• [07:15] Garrison Davis: "Seeking asylum is an extremely different process. It strips you of all dignity... people die migrating."
• [17:08] Host: "Groups that have been able to come here the past few years that are going to be seen as 'illegal' by the White House and ICE..."

On Dual Citizenship:

• [09:47] James Stout: "Even if you plan to stay here, if you have the ability to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now."

On the “Politics of Escape”:

• [34:15] Host: “As goes the US goes the world... maybe if it gets to the point where large numbers of people are fleeing the US we might see some of that same anti-migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the US...”

On Political Inspiration:

• [23:17] Garrison Davis: “...bershwidan jiyane means resistance is life. And we should remember that for whole groups of people...if they had all just left, they would no longer exist in the way that they exist now.”

On False Safe Havens:

• [37:56] Host: “I’ve been called slurs on the street way more in Portland, Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia... There is no mythical safe haven.”

On Responsibility and Solidarity:

• [36:17] Host: “You’re essentially abandoning a whole bunch of the like most at risk people...I want to be here for them and help them, not in a patronizing way, but in a solidarity way.”

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [02:58] – Introduction of the topic: Fleeing the U.S.
• [04:53] – What does leaving entail? Should you feel guilty?
• [07:15] – The harsh reality of asylum and migration
• [09:47] – Pursuing dual citizenship
• [16:36] – The “onion” of precarity: immigration status and risk
• [19:13] – Community and historical survival strategies
• [23:17] – Lessons from Kurdish and Indigenous resistance
• [34:15] – The myth of safety abroad; global far-right trends
• [36:17] – Ethical concerns: Who gets left behind?
• [37:56] – The illusion of blue-state or foreign “safe havens”
• [41:41] – Options: Practical takeaways and responsibilities

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Tone & Style

The conversation is urgent yet measured, sardonic, and compassionate—balancing gallows humor with concrete advice and moral seriousness. The hosts employ personal anecdotes, highlight community wisdom, and disarm their own privilege to keep the discussion honest and accessible.

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Final Takeaways

• Don’t panic—but don’t be complacent.
  • Increase your options (passports, citizenship, community networks).
  • Understand that migration is more complicated, expensive, and dangerous than it appears.
  • There are no perfect refuges—but there is strength and joy in collective resistance.
• Leaving is not a solution for most—and that's okay.
  • Solidarity, preparation, and mutual aid are key to surviving and resisting oppression.
  • Think hard about privilege, responsibility, and who stands to lose if the privileged flee.

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Closing Quote

[41:41] Host:
"It’s certainly annoying that we don’t have a concise yes or no answer, but there isn’t a concise yes or no answer. I think the most concise one I have is that you should be giving yourself as many options as you can."

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For full episodes and more resources, visit It Could Happen Here’s website.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Host]

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[Host]

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[Host]

Call zone media.

[James Stout]

Oh, welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about how it's happened here. And it continues to happen here. Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of the podcast, you know. Cause we're not. Anyway, I got James Stout with me. I got Garrison Davis with me.

[Garrison Davis]

Woot, woot. Huzzah.

[Host]

So the past few weeks, myself as well as probably everyone else on this, on this call, has been getting a lot of questions from listeners via the various social media apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's been kind of on a lot of people's minds and something that we've been discussing as like, a group is the idea of, should you flee the country? Is the party over? Do we need to use the time we have now to get out? The Trump administration is cracking down on a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people, people with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum, trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary out there. And the thought crosses your mind, maybe, maybe there's somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a tough question for us to kind of think about because we don't want to, like, inspire panic. That's not the purpose of what we do here.

[James Stout]

You should try to spread calm when times are bad, if you can.

[Host]

Yeah. But the situation politically in the country and in many parts of the world right now is extremely fraught. And it does feel close towards like, the bad nightmare scenario than kind of I've ever thought it has before. So it's. So it's a really tough question.

[James Stout]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I think what we're going to be doing this episode is just kind of talking about this question and our thoughts around, you know, various responses to this line of thought. And I guess Robert kind of has a, a baseline, like, kind of quasi answer, um, that I think we can use as a jumping off point, you.

[James Stout]

Know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know, or in a community of people who are being targeted, you know, you're a naturalized citizen, you're here on a green card, you're trans, any of the many different groups of people that are being targeted right now and you have the opportunity to leave and you think that that's the right thing for you, then you should do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know, if you've got a job that is demand in other countries and you know the process and can get, start the process to like get residency somewhere else and work somewhere else and you know, make, make your life work that way, then I don't think you should feel bad about doing that if that's what you decide is the right thing for you. That said, it's not, it's just simply not going to be a realistic possibility for most people. What is more realistic for a lot of people is, for example, moving from states where the risk is higher to states where maybe the risk is low. Hard to say how long the risk will be lower, you know, but I, you know, I certainly that's more achievable for a lot of people than getting set up in a foreign country, as James will talk about. If your hope is just, I'm going to try to go somewhere else like Europe or whatever as an asylum seeker. As again, James will go into more detail on life ain't easy for asylum seekers. And that's not really, again, it may not be nearly as much of an option as you think that it is right now. I, you know, had to go through kind of my own process after the election of like, well, am I going to like, you know, get my finances in order and move to another country and basically try to like pay my way into getting a visa somewhere like in Spain, which is an option for, for someone like me. And I came to the conclusion that like now, you know, if the worst case thing happens, I'd rather like die here or whatever. It's just not worth it, you know, to try to get out. So I'm committing to trying to like hold the line here with everybody basically that I love in the world because like, what else are you going to do, you know?

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, like, I will just say that, you know, I probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know, and it is one of the more miserable fates available to a human. It will, if large numbers of people start leaving the US only get worse. If you're someone who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you have traveled around the world, right, you have one of the more high value passports in the world, you can, you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely different process. If you think you're just going to get on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like, understand that many countries will probably be. Begin to require reciprocal visas with the United States soon if we continue our current sort of pathway with a more isolationist immigration policy, and that you'll have to get that visa. And then, you know, if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able to fly somewhere and say you try and overstay a visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have people I've met in every facet of my life. Like, I know guys who I met as a bike racer who have applied for asylum, guys I met on a bike race who are staying on that barge in the uk it is. It is a miserable fate. And I think that. That. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying that you need to understand that it is highly unpleasant and it strips you of all dignity. And in some cases, it strips people of, like, their lives. Right. People die migrating. It's also, like, incredibly expensive to do the things that migrants do because that everyone is trying to make a buck off them. Right. I was just talking on another podcast about how the. The journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who tried to come to the United States, it would have cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't because they couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean, like, if you, you know, if you have historical right to citizenship through various, you know, certain people have rights to Spanish citizenship or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one that many people have access to, then. Yeah, yeah, why not? Why not? You know, if you have the financial resources, why not try and see where that will go? Why not begin pursuing that?

[Host]

Totally.

[James Stout]

Yeah, sure.

[Host]

I think becoming a dual citizen, if you have the capability to. Is a fantastic idea that I will, like, never dissuade someone from.

[James Stout]

No, I would go so far as to say, even if you plan to stay here, if you have the ability to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Garrison Davis]

Like, it's something that you should do it. It's often not hideously expensive, and it's something that might be. Yeah, you have options. And options are good.

[Host]

Yeah. I am very hesitant to, like, openly call for, like, now is the time to leave the country. I do not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons, like some of them are more political, as in, like, I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape. Even the idea of like fleeing states, I feel a little bit iffy about now. There's certainly, you know, a lot of cases where families are trying to move, you know, outside states that have more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors towards more friendly states, which I totally understand. But I have greatly enjoyed getting to know a whole bunch of trans people in the south. And a whole bunch of trans people here are not willing to leave their home. This is, this is their home and it always will be. And they're gonna stay and fight for it even as things get, you know, harder. And I don't think you should write these people off. I don't think you should write these places off. These, these places are still a terrain of battle and they're gonna be places where trans people can still live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases. And that is, that is worth acknowled, worth putting effort into to the point that like, after the election I was already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel around the country some more. And after, after this last election, my line of thought was way more on the side of I would actually like to spend as much time in Georgia as possible. I would actually want to, to stay in the south for as much as I can because this is like not a place that I think people should be walking away from. And in some ways that does come from like a slightly privileged point of view for multiple reasons. As someone who white and holds a Canadian passport as well as an American passport, that is, you know, something that I like to have as a back pocket option. But that's something I'm not like considering like at all. Like, I do not want to move to Canada. All my friends are here. My life is here. There's certain scenarios where things get much, much, much worse, even though things are already getting quite bad. But there are certain scenarios where, yes, that passport will come in handy. And that's why I do encourage like, no matter what, you should, you should see if you have any options to become a citize more than one country. It is a great thing to be. It's. It's good to not be just tied down to one place. But the process of, of trying to, to, you know, immigrate somewhere where you do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging. And we will probably discuss some, some more of this later because I think there's also a sort of like onion of threat of of people when you're when you're thinking about this question like which people will will be or are currently being targeted the most and how that kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation to places. View it as like safer havens and I would like to jumpstart that unnie Enough protection discussion after these messages.

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[James Stout]

We're back and we're talking about onions, which you need to wear around your neck to protect you from evil spirits. Garrison, that's what you were getting at, right?

[Host]

Yes.

[Garrison Davis]

Let's wrap this one up. That's done. Move on to the next topic.

[Host]

Wear five different onions to drive away the various secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals.

[James Stout]

Yes.

[Host]

Speaking of, I guess, like, the big thing I'm thinking about right now or one of the big things is there's different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in the United States. One, you have, like, people who are completely undocumented, right? You have people who are, who are currently here on, like, valid asylum claims who are about to get those rights, like, stripped away. I'm trying to think of, like, the, the, the list of refugees that were allowed under Biden that are now, like, like, imminently going to get their stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I know Venezuelan.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, I know Venezuela.

[Host]

Haitian immigrants are another Afghan. But groups that have, that have been able to come here the past few years that are going to be now seen as like, quote, unquote, illegal by the White House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then have student visa holders which are already, like, currently under threat, getting visas taken away. You have people on work visas, you have green card holders, and you even have naturalized citizens. And among just regular citizens, unnaturalists, I guess, people that were born here. You have other factors that could lead to potential hardship based on political affiliation or based on gender and sexuality. And that's kind of like the bracket breakdown I'm, I'm working off of. So as, as much as it's, like, dangerous to be, like, you know, like a trans anarchist, right? In the United States, I think that is. That is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who's about to get, like, literally hunted down by ice. Right. And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options for how they're going to, like, handle this question and handle the decision of preemptively choosing to relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of thoughts on this onion? I guess.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. I mean, I think you described it well. Right. I think a lot of folks are for the first time finding themselves in that onion at all. Right. And certainly with respect to, like, immigration enforcement or potentially being forced to leave this country. And I think it would be good maybe to look at folks who have been there for a long time and look at how they've done. Right. Because there have been people whose existence was precarious in this country for decades. Right. Maybe we go back to 1994 and Operation Gatekeeper. Maybe we go back further, whatever. I don't care. Maybe we go back to the operation whose name is also a slur in the 1930s. And I'm not going to say.

[Host]

I mean, indigenous people here have. For all of America.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, sure. Have Been.

[Host]

Been people that, like, exist in a wildly different reality than, like.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Host]

Most US Citizens. Right.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. Where. Yes. This country is predicated on the genocide of indigenous people.

[Host]

Well. And even in the ways that they're. They, like, continue to live here. It's. It's like a different world from.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. Like, that genocide is ongoing. Like, it's not a. It's not a thing that stopped. Yeah. It's not a historical thing. It's the thing that exists as long as this country exists. I would look to those people. Right. Like you said, Garrison, indigenous communities. Indigenous people continue to exist in this country despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them. Undocumented communities. Right. Migrant communities of mixed status have continued to exist for a very long time. And, like, the way that they have got through this is together, and that's the way that we will get through this, too. When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities have shown up for each other. Right. They're doing that right now. You see groups like Union del Barrio in San Diego going around announcing when there are ice, the presence of ICE officers in the neighborhood. The way that they have gone through it is through other people in positions of precarity showing up for one another and taking care of one another. And if that is a new position for you, if finding yourself further along the intersectional matrix of oppression is new for you, then, like, it's scary. I do understand that that precarity is petrifying, but understand that communities and people have been here for a long time and look at how they've got through it. I mean, queer communities, too, to a degree, have been persecuted in this country for a very long time and have developed ways of not just, like, existing, but also, like, continuing to center joy and experience joy and not just, like, live in fear. Because I think if you live in fear, like, you've kind of given up to a degree or you've let them win. To agree, I should say, like, I do understand that being new to this is petrifying for people. And, like, I don't want to just say, like, oh, you shouldn't be scared. Or, you know, you should look at how migrant communities have taken care of one another. But, like, now is the time to begin establishing solidarity as well. So, like, those communities which have been precarious for some time, they're not closed spaces. Right? Like, you can be in solidarity with them and you can learn from them. And I think that now is the time to do that. Like, now is the time to build stronger links. If you're really worried about things being really bad in this country and you have good reason to be. Right.

[James Stout]

Like, oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, it's really fucking bad.

[James Stout]

It's all really bad.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Garrison Davis]

Like, you know, we're sending people to labor camps.

[James Stout]

If you're scared, panicking, thinking, I gotta get out of here, I get you.

[Host]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think the thing that you should be doing regardless of who you are, is you should be giving yourself options. You should be increasing the amount of options that you have. And, like, that is something that is never a bad idea. That is something that you could never do too early. It's something that you should have already been doing, frankly. Like, I've been advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport, because that does make it easier to leave the country. You should be getting that. And it's going to be harder, especially if you're trans now, to get a passport that matches what you look like. Right. But this is still something I think is worth doing because it gives you an option and you should be increasing the amount of options you have.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, it's never a bad thing. And that community structure is an option, too. People showing up for you and you showing up for them, that is one of your options. Don't forget that. And that will also bring you joy and you will feel safer when you, like, we're supposed to live in communities. And like, I, you know, I've. I've seen a lot of people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Kurdish guys once said to me in the, in the desert, he was like, whatever we do, we do together. And I thought that was very profound because, like, they were at that time, like dancing around a fire in the midst of what was like an open air concentration camp, you know? But if you can find community and you can find a way to continue to experience joy, then I promise that things won't happen be as bad as they seem right now.

[James Stout]

Yep.

[Garrison Davis]

Within the Kurdish Freedom movement, there's a phrase that is commonly used, a slogan you could say. I guess in Kurdish you would say bershwidan jiyane means resistance is life. And we should remember that for whole groups of people, many of whom we featured here, if they had all just left, they would no longer exist in the way that they exist now. Right. Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries. Right. Turkish, Iraqi, Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence and they've still remained there. Right. And they've continued to fight against that state oppression and they've created something beautiful today as a result that we can see in Rojava. The same is true of the Karen and Kareni people we've spoken to in Myanmar. Right. They. They decided to remain rather than to leave, and in doing so, that they created a culture that was based on resistance and that resisted the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly on violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think we should look to those examples as we consider, like, what does it mean if the state becomes more hostile here?

[Host]

Something that, like, I think, I think Robert said in our work group chat, which thankfully has not been turned into an Atlantic article.

[James Stout]

I did invite Pete Hegseth, so we'll see if he, if he hops in.

[Garrison Davis]

You know, he's rejected. That'll be good times. Yeah. We've been trying to add the Atlantic editor in chief for years.

[James Stout]

No, he is not welcome. He's absolutely not welcome.

[Garrison Davis]

Fuck that guy. We just need him to manufacture consent for bombing another country in the Middle east on our podcast.

[James Stout]

It's so funny because it is like, that is like the dream of every journalist that you just get added to the entire government's war planning chat. And he just uses it to dunk on the Trump admin, like, not to.

[Garrison Davis]

Not to get more info.

[James Stout]

Unlike anything.

[Garrison Davis]

Then he, like, homers back into the.

[James Stout]

Hedge it's fucking hysterical. Hysterical.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. They could have had four years maybe not maybe it was only a one off chat.

[James Stout]

No, it would, they would have, they would have accidentally invited a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually.

[Garrison Davis]

But yeah, magnificent.

[Host]

But something Robert said in our group chat is that like if you already had like plans or the ability to move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah, why not? Right. Like if, if you already were thinking about moving to, to Germany, which is very funny to say now. Right. But already had plans and you had the ability to do that then, then sure, that's something that, that you should, that, that you should like consider if you do not already have pre existing plans and means maybe it's not something to put all of your effort into doing right now because that is such a massive undertaking in general and, and not everyone has that option and there's going to be people stuck here and you know, part of like my thinking on this is, is like I'm in a relatively privileged position. I would rather use the sort of benefits and stability that I have to help other people that are going to be living in this country. So I'm going to stay here to do that. And that's part of kind of my thought process. On a personal level, do I, you know, one day maybe want to live off the continent? Yeah, but that's like for personal reasons, not for political reasons. That, that's because I think Glasgow looks pretty and if you also think Glasgow is pretty and you want to move there, then that's fine. But I guess like the politics of escape I do find a little bit troubling in some ways and I guess I would like to talk about that a little bit more after this ad break.

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[Host]

All right, we're back. James made a horrible face when I complimented Scotland. What was up with that?

[Garrison Davis]

When you said Glasgow? Like it, just Glasgow, Not a city that's traditionally aesthetically prized, I guess.

[Host]

Okay, well, that's your Edinburgh is where.

[James Stout]

If I was going to go to Scotland, I'd probably aim at I'm not.

[Host]

Going to Live in the Harry Potter town. Are you kidding me?

[James Stout]

Oh, it existed before?

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. That is rude, Garrison.

[James Stout]

Don't take that away from Edinburgh. I don't give her that.

[Host]

All the coffee shops are like wizard themed now. Absolutely not.

[James Stout]

If you haven't been to Edinburgh, don't tell me that shit.

[Host]

I've seen your travel pictures, Robert.

[James Stout]

They were mostly hard liquor themed.

[Host]

Okay, that's fair.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, you can. Edinburgh is a nice city. Glasgow's a nice city. You can enjoy. You can enjoy the best. Stop by Carlisle on your way down the. Where my family are from.

[James Stout]

My favorite Glasgow fact is that there's a beverage called buckfast that is 20% alcohol mineral wine made by monks that has as much coffee as a Red Bull. And in Glasgow, Scotland, for a significant period of time, roughly 1% of all violent crimes were committed with the bottle.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, Bucky is, it's, it's a whole subculture.

[James Stout]

Buck fast gets you fucked fast. That's right, folks.

[Host]

So a term I've used for like the past few years to like, discuss this, to discuss this question of like, can you like, outrun American fascism is the politics of escape. And, and for a while I really was vocally opposed to this sort of politics because it felt like the entire world was going through a global far right power grab and no matter where you run, you can't really get away from it. And now kind of curiously, you know, some of that, some of this is still happening. Right. You can look at the AfD in Germany, but, but some of what's happened with this Trump administration has almost weakened a degree of like this global far right power grab. Like for a long time it looked like the Conservative Party of Canada was about to just completely take control over the whole, over the whole country due to like pent up frustration over Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party. And now due to the actions of the Trump administration, the Liberals have retaken a significant portion of like, popular support and are probably going to do a big sweep in the general election. That's going to happen, I'm guessing next month with the new prime minister, like, about, about to call one. Which makes sense because he should call one at the, @ the peak of support for the Liberal Party.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Host]

After the Conservatives have taken like a 12 to 17 point dip, depending which poll you use. So for a while I was like, it doesn't even really make sense to flee to Canada because Canada is right on the coattails of America. Canadian politics are kind of historically about like 10 years delayed from American politics. And, and, and now the new Trump administration has kind of thrown a, throwing a curveball in this. British politics are always really hard for me to diagnose because all of their parties there are pretty wacky in my mind.

[James Stout]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Like, you know, what the Tories have been doing has been extremely worrying. Like the nhs, like trans stuff is pretty bad. Now that the, you know, Labor Party is in, it's hard for me to figure out kind of where the country is going because this Labor Party is a pretty conservative Labor Party. But like, this idea of like being able to outrun American fascism is still something I find, like, unconvincing, I guess. Like you can't fully run away from all of these problems and there may be certain people that, that it still like, makes sense to start making these moves, to start planning for that option. Right. I'm, I am, I am pro options. Even if this idea of like total escape I still find troubling.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Host]

I don't know. Is anyone else have any kind of thoughts on this? On this?

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. I mean, look, as goes to us goes the world. Right. And I know, but that is changing. But like, maybe I think if it gets to the point where large numbers of people are fleeing the US we might see some of that same anti migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the US in even relatively liberal Canada, the United Kingdom, other Anglophone countries. Right. Like, it's already very hard to immigrate to Australia.

[Host]

It's not the easiest to immigrate to Canada, frankly.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. I've not, I'm not as familiar with.

[Host]

The Canadian one, especially as like an American.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Host]

Unless you have like a job that you need to do in Canada and you're the only one who can do that job, or you get a Canadian girlfriend or that's. That makes it slightly easier, but still not. Still not like completely easier, frankly.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. That is a. I guess that's the alternative. Yeah. I think, like, I know like a lot of people who listen to this, listen to this because they have a fairly radical politics, right or left politics. And like.

[Host]

Or you're a journalist or you're a federal worker.

[Garrison Davis]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're looking to steal our stories off, if I may say so. But like, yeah, we've all grown up on the stories of people who stood up for what they believed in. Right. And Margaret makes a whole podcast about it and Robert does on Christmases.

[James Stout]

Yep.

[Garrison Davis]

And like, there's a reason why they did that. Like, you know, they. I know that the idea of running away and being safe could Be tempting but like if this country gets as bad as it needs to be for people to run away in large numbers, then like the world gets markedly less safe. Oh yeah, you're going to be running for the rest of your life.

[James Stout]

Just look at how much food the US produces, how much medicine. 70% of all of the blood used in every single country's medical system around the world is exported from the United States.

[Garrison Davis]

Oh wow. I know, that's crazy. Yeah.

[Host]

And like, particularly for, for like US Citizens, right? Looking, looking to flee. The people who are going to be able to pull it off are people with pretty, pretty extraordinary means. In, in most cases I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying all cases but like if, if you have the capacity to move from, from the United States to Germany, you're, you're probably not living on the poverty line. Right? Like this is, this, is this, this takes a considerable financial investment. So instead part of what my opposition to this is that you're essentially abandoning a whole bunch of like the like most at risk people.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Host]

A part of this even extends out to like moving from state to state. I'm obviously in support of free movement. I've traveled around. I'm going to continue to travel around. I want to see as much as the country in the world as I can. But like another facet of this politics of escape is that something I hear very consistently from my, my friends in Atlanta and this is something I can attest to like personally. The most amount of like, like vocal transphobia from people like on the street that they have faced has not been in Atlanta where they live. It's been when they're visiting people in Seattle or Portland. Like you actually get a lot more like weird anti queer harassment in Seattle just, just like on like the street level. It's bizarre. Like cities all have different kind of like modes of operation. People of different like, like informal like manners in terms of how, how you like behave on the street. And it's, it is. This is something I've definitely actually like, I've definitely experienced. There's, there's a lot more like open openness towards like certain types of, of like anti trans harassment in like these like liberal safe havens, like quote unquote.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[Host]

I've been called slurs on the street way more in Portland, Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is, this is another like interesting aspect which I, I'm not saying Atlanta is a quote unquote safer city than Seattle if you're trans. I'm not saying the vice versa either, but this is like just an aspect of like the politics of escape. Like especially in the, in the United States. Like there like is really no like real escape. Like there, there is no mythical safe haven where you can live your, your free life and, and frolic through the park and never have to face any kind of hardship or like political disenfranchisement. If you still want to relocate somewhere, that's something that you should consider and again create options. But I also do not want to like abandon my friends here because I just, you know, have a more stable job. Like I, I, I want to be here for them and, and help them and not in like a patronizing way, but in like a solidarity way. Like that's like really important to me. And I think people who are, who are thinking about these same things and kind of running these same questions of, of if they want to commit to staying in the United States, I think should also make those considerations of, is like, you know, which, which one of your friends is not going to be able to make the same calculation. And frankly I feel, I feel like better as a person and like my mental health feels better knowing I'm going to be here with them rather than going to a Berlin nightclub, which does sound fun and I still might on vacation.

[James Stout]

Oh, you definitely need to go to Bergen Gare.

[Host]

Oh, I have, I have plenty of.

[James Stout]

You need to spend three days that feel like about four hours in Bergain.

[Host]

I'm excited. I am for the first time planning to leave the continent this year, which is a little bit scary because reentering the United States is pretty tricky right now. Which should also play into your considerations.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah.

[James Stout]

Also the general safety of air travel at the moment.

[Host]

The general safety of air travel now that we don't have a gay man running the planes. Yeah.

[James Stout]

It turns out he was actually all.

[Host]

Right at that woke was keeping those planes in the air.

[James Stout]

You know what? Kudos to him. Turns out he was okay at that job.

[Host]

But, but yes, I don't know what I was saying, but I'm sure it was really important and well thought through about not abandoning people who maybe don't have the same resources that you do.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah. To your point about like coming back to the US like understand that like one of the things that migrants deal with, even if they get to a place and they have some degree of permanence and they feel safe, there's, there is that they will never be able to go back to where they're from in most cases. Right. That means when someone in their family passes away, they can't be there for the funeral. That means that when they have a grandchild, they have a niece or a nephew, something happens in their community and they want to be there to help. It's a natural disaster. They are just stuck. And that's not something to like, to discount as something that's not important. Like, that is really hard. And if you have a community now, especially for trans folks. Right. Like, I just think that, like, there are so many places where, like, like you say Garrison, where bigotry against trans folks is being more and more normalized. So, like, if you have a community where people, where you're experiencing joy every day with the people you're around, like, leaving, that should be something that you really think hard about because that can be hard to find.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Garrison Davis]

Especially in Edinburgh because they're all terfs with the, in the cafes. It's not true, just to be clear.

[Host]

Yeah, I mean, this is kind of the discussion I wanted to have. I'm sure we all have more thoughts on this that we will, we will express very eloquently as soon as we close this recording session.

[Garrison Davis]

That's how we do it.

[Host]

But, but I know this is the type of stuff that we've been thinking about. I know, I know listeners have been too, because you're asking us these questions. It's certainly annoying that we don't have a concise yes or no answer, but there isn't a concise yes or no answer. I think the most concise one I have is that you should be giving yourself as many options as you can. If that includes applying for Irish citizenship because your grandfather is Irish, then, hey, why not go for it, right?

[James Stout]

Ireland's great, nice country, you'll like it.

[Host]

But I am, I am trepidatious, I guess, about, about, you know, public calls to flee the country at this point and kind of the underlying politics and ideology of that, let alone the kind of the logistical aspects of trying to relocate to a different country where you are not a citizen. And frankly, I think there'll be a lot of countries that are not super eager to take American immigrants. I think Canada is typically kind of, kind of low key, been one of these places. Especially if we're going to go to war with Canada to make it the 51st state, then it might also create some tricky aspects.

[Garrison Davis]

It could make it harder.

[Host]

But I know if anyone else has any other thoughts, air them now or forever be beholdened to angry Reddit comments.

[Garrison Davis]

Yeah, I don't know. Please don't burn each other down on Reddit. Now is the time to give people a little grace and be kind to other people.

[James Stout]

Don't flee to Belgium. Stay away from Belgium at all costs.

[Garrison Davis]

I had a nice time in Belgium.

[Host]

What do you have against Belgium? I have a friend in Belgium.

[James Stout]

As an Italian, I think we need to go to war with them again. You know, it's what made Caesar great. It could make us great again. That's my stance on Belgium. It's Italian territory.

[Garrison Davis]

I stand with the Belgian people.

[Host]

It could happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media from what? For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us.

[Danielle Fishel]

Out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

[Host]

Or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.