Talking to Venezuelans About Venezuela

Summary

It Could Happen Here: "Talking to Venezuelans about Venezuela" (March 31, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, host James (Cool Zone Media) sits down with Marianne, a Venezuelan artist and activist, to discuss the realities of Venezuelan life, identity, and political discourse—emphasizing the urgent need for genuine Venezuelan voices in global conversations about the country's crisis. They critique how both the US left and right marginalize or misappropriate Venezuelan narratives and explore the deep trauma, complexity, and resilience of Venezuelans, both at home and in the diaspora. The conversation is a candid, emotional, and often personal challenge to prevailing assumptions, delivered in a raw and open tone.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Erasure of Venezuelan Voices

• Lack of Genuine Representation: James and Marianne express deep frustration about the US left discussing Venezuela without engaging actual Venezuelans.
  • “I am appalled at the discourse about Venezuela which is happening without Venezuelan voices for the most part.” (James, 03:34)
• Misuse of Narratives by Both US Left and Right:
  • Left: Silencing or dismissing critical Venezuelan perspectives if they don't fit the anti-imperialist narrative.
  • Right: Appropriating Venezuelan suffering to advocate intervention or promote US policy.
  • “Everyone’s trying to… steal our own narrative and suffering for their own gain. And the left and the right are doing both, like, equally.” (Marianne, 07:33)

2. Emotional Turmoil of Recent Events

• Mixed Responses to US Intervention and Ouster of Maduro:
  • Marianne describes a wave of fear, relief, confusion, and worry—not joy at American bombs but at the removal of an oppressor, tempered by deep skepticism of American interventionism.
    • "Joy, because… this guy who has done horrible things to the Venezuelan people is now paying for his crime somewhere. But at the same time, fear because of what is going to happen next." (Marianne, 06:44)
  • Realization of being caught between two predatory powers, exacerbating impotence and despair.
• Isolation and Exhaustion in Exile:
  • “Do I even have a place in the world if nobody wants to hear my voice?” (Marianne, 08:54)
  • Loss of friends and unfollowing leftist spaces as people ignore or invalidate her experience.

3. Binary Framing and Its Problems

• False Binaries: The choice is falsely framed as either supporting Maduro (and suffering) or supporting US-style intervention (with all its perils).
  • “It’s a complete failing of us on the left to not talk to people from Venezuela.” (James, 04:05)
• Critique of ‘Imperial Left’: The left’s consistent failure to offer solidarity or even to listen, often accusing critical Venezuelans of being fascists or CIA plants.
  • “They have sided with our oppressors. So, you know, if Trump comes and says, I recognize this regime is bad... people are going to take that.” (Marianne, 16:34)
  • “We’ve run directly into the hands of vultures because they’re the only hands that we’ve been given.” (Marianne, 17:38)

4. Trauma and Desperation

• Extreme Suffering Under Maduro and Chavismo:
  • Harrowing realities: famine, torture, executions, and a litany of abuses.
  • “People experience mock and real executions, getting electrocuted by their genitals, rape, being forced to eat feces, and a whole list of medieval-sounding torture methods.” (Marianne, 16:28)
• Desperation Shapes Political Choices:
  • Outsiders often misunderstand endorsements of intervention or the right not as ideological, but as emerging from trauma and hopelessness.
    • “Many of these leftists will criticize Venezuelans for siding with their enemies. But what they don’t see is that they have sided with ours.” (Marianne, 16:34)
  • “We have all these Venezuelans who, again, claim to be right wing... but if you actually talk to them, that is not the case.” (Marianne, 59:35)

5. Mutual Aid & Solidarity: Venezuelan Style

• Community-based Survival Tactics:
  • Resource sharing during famines; networks of aid in the absence of state support.
    • “In my backyard we had plantain and our neighbor had avocado. So you... we would exchange things. Somebody needed anything…” (Marianne, 28:39)
  • Deep-rooted mutual aid, often resembling anarchist practice more than internet ‘leftism.’
• Lesson for the US Left:
  • “They're probably doing more mutual aid than people who spend a lot of their time being anarchists on the Internet.” (James, 27:59)
  • Solidarity built not on ideology but on bare survival and common purpose.

6. Diversity and Complexity of Political Views

• Opposition Is Not Monolithic or Right-Wing:
  • US/European left often assumes all anti-Maduro Venezuelans are right-wing, ignoring left opposition.
    • “A free Venezuela isn’t just free from imperialism, but also free from dictatorship. It’s free from both.” (Marianne, 24:20)
  • Diverse opposition encompasses many leftists, especially among queer artists/activists.
  • Family Division: Chavismo caused rifts, sometimes irreparably, reflecting growing polarization similar to current US politics.

7. Solidarity Means Learning, Listening, and Including

• Practical Advocacy:

  • Learn Spanish; engage with local voices and media.
    • “If you’re going to advocate for a specific group of people, at least learn the language, you know?” (Marianne, 49:27)
  • Active listening and empathy, especially when trauma influences politics.
    • “Don’t dismiss them as CIA, fascist, whatever. They’re not fascists. They’re just people who are traumatized.” (Marianne, 52:50)
  • Combine anti-imperialist and anti-authoritarian demands in activism (“US out” and “Down with Maduro” together).
    • “When you omit one side, you’re making it seem like the other side is better. When it should be abundantly clear that both the US and Maduro need to be out.” (Marianne, 33:09)

• “For the people” isn’t a slogan: True solidarity is hard work: language, context, dialogue, critical thinking.

  • “Very few for the people in that sense, where they engage and actually go and try to talk to us.” (Marianne, 56:22)

---

Memorable Quotes

• On Solidarity:

  • “We should be spoken to as humans and thought about as humans, not as some chess piece in this political game.” (Marianne, 61:13)

• On Opposition Diversity:

  • “I've heard a lot of people say that. Like, well, yeah, we, we wanted it too, so we supported it, but it wasn't. We didn't get that. We got prisons and cops.” (James, 41:21)

• On the Left's Failures:

  • “It is fundamentally a colonial impulse to steal someone's narrative and assume that they're incapable of speaking for themselves. So you must speak for them.” (James, 10:09)
  • "Being for the people takes a lot of effort... learn languages, visit places, talk to people who you might on the surface disagree with." (Marianne, 56:22)

• On Trauma:

  • “They're just people who are traumatized. And it's really important to understand their trauma in order to address the issues that actually concern them.” (Marianne, 52:50)

---

Key Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------| | 02:48-04:08 | Opening discussion—lack of Venezuelan voice | | 04:32-08:54 | Marianne describes post-intervention emotion/trauma | | 10:00-12:32 | Colonial narratives, opposition's diversity | | 13:57-17:53 | Trauma, balancing US and regime violence | | 22:29-26:37 | Being left-wing in Venezuela and diaspora | | 28:14-29:44 | Mutual aid & self-reliance in crisis | | 30:15-33:09 | Practical solidarity: how to support Venezuelans | | 36:39-41:51 | Memories of early Chavismo, family divisions | | 46:22-48:10 | Palestinian-Venezuelan solidarity | | 49:23-54:17 | How to listen and advocate | | 56:58-57:13 | Solidarity is work, language, effort | | 61:02-62:18 | Final appeals: “We’re not a monolith—listen to us”|

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Concluding Takeaways

• Reject Simple Narratives: Venezuela’s crisis cannot be flattened to a left-vs-right or imperialism-vs-anti-imperialism debate. Listen to Venezuelans as multi-faceted, traumatized, and aspirational people, not caricatures.
• Include Real Voices: Solidarity begins with learning, listening, and translating—not with speaking for others.
• Empathy Over Assumptions: Understand support for “the enemy” as a desperate response; reject the labeling of traumatized people as agents or dupes.
• Practical Solidarity: Protest both US intervention and dictatorship, learn Spanish, and foster direct connections.
• Everyone is Human: “We’re human and we’re not the perfect victims. … We’re not a monolith. … Include us into the conversation.” (Marianne, 61:11)

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Guest Contact

• Instagram: e.m.a.r.i.n (spelled out as “my name deconstructed”) (57:54)

---

Summary compiled by AI Podcast Summarizer (2026). All sections extracted and attributed per episode guidelines.

Transcript

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[Marianne]

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[Cool Zone Media Announcer]

Zone Media

[James]

hi everyone and welcome to the show. It's me, James, and I'm very lucky to be joined by Marianne today.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

He's an outspoken member of the Venezuelan

[James]

diaspora, a writer, photographer and we're going

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

to talk today a little bit about

[James]

our shared frustration with the left in

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

this country talking about Venezuelan people, but not two Venezuelan people. So thanks for joining me tonight.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Thank you for having me.

[James]

Yeah, this is something that we've been

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

trying to put together for a while and I'm really glad that we're finally doing it.

[James]

So I guess if I can just frame this discussion.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

We've spoken about this extensively so like, I'm sure we won't need much, much prompting.

[James]

I do not understand how people arrive

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

at a position of identifying as being leftist if they don't love and care about other people.

[James]

And if you love and care about

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

other people, then you should listen to them. And I am appalled at the discourse about Venezuela which is happening without Venezuelan voices for the most part, where people

[James]

will talk to Venezuelans at all in the US press. It's far too often people in the

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

diaspora who are talking to the right wing of media and highlighting like what are sometimes reasonable objections to Maduro, sometimes which are completely insane.

[James]

But like it's, it's a complete failing

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

of us on the left to not talk to people from Venezuela.

[James]

Maybe you could just share with us like how it's been since January to

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

see it offered it as a binary right. You can either exist under Maduro and people can live in poverty and suffer, or you can watch your country get bombed and choose like mcm, I guess. And none of this is happening. Was asking you what you would like. Can you share how that's been?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Oh my God, it's been a wild ride. I mean there's a lot of different

[Marianne]

emotions going on, which is one of

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

the things that I think a lot

[Marianne]

of people don't understand that are not Venezuelan. But yeah, just a lot of emotions. I mean, I remember when it first happened, I immediately messaged my family back home. So my brother, my mom, my, my grandparents. My family is not from Caracas. So they were all right. They were just saying, you know, it's calm wherever we are, it's fine. But yeah, the immediate thing was concern.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Then obviously I couldn't sleep that night because of everything that was going On

[Marianne]

I live in Europe. So by that time, it was like. I don't know, it was like five

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

in the morning or something.

[Marianne]

Eight in the morning. I don't remember.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

It's all just a blur to me now. But I remember I was just, like, on my phone seeing the updates every

[Marianne]

minute, trying to contact my friends who did live in Caracas.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And they were just saying, yeah, we

[Marianne]

hear bombs, we don't know what's going on.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And then eventually some people started saying

[Marianne]

that they bombed, liked, some strategic military bases or, like, which is the presidential house.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And so everyone was like, all over the place.

[Marianne]

And then we got all this information that they took Maduro, whatever. And then at that point, it was

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

just like, okay, concern, worry, confusion, and

[Marianne]

then joy, because not because the place

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

was bombed by Americans, but because this guy was, like, taken away.

[Marianne]

Who. He deserves worse than prison, to be honest.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But then concern again, because what are

[Marianne]

the Americans gonna do now? So it was just a lot of different things going on.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, I think a lot of people, including myself, were just, like, paralyzed by

[Marianne]

all these different emotions.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, joy, because again, this guy who

[Marianne]

has done horrible things to the Venezuelan people is now paying for his crime somewhere. But at the same time, fear because

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

of what is going to happen next.

[Marianne]

I mean, we're not dumb. We know what the US Is capable of.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So it was a little bit of

[Marianne]

both of those feelings after we knew what had happened.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And ever since then, it has been

[Marianne]

just a struggle because, of course, there's a lot of misinformation going out there. It's been frustrating because I see many

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

of my people's voices being silenced by

[Marianne]

people on the left.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And then also you have a lot

[Marianne]

of people on the right, like, appropriating our narrative to, like, push their own pro American propaganda, whatever.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So it's kind of just like everyone's

[Marianne]

trying to, like, appropriate or steal our own narrative and suffering for their own gain. And the left and the right are doing both, like, equally.

[James]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

So it has been kind of frustrating because, I mean, every time I even just try to leave a comment on Instagram or say something, I'm called a fascist.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, Trump supporters, CIA, Mossad agent, whatever. And, you know, it's frustrating to see

[Marianne]

so many people because most of the people I follow are, like, leftist, right?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But I've unfollowed, like, 70% of the

[Marianne]

people I used to follow because they started posting, like, pro Maduro stuff and talking about how he was so great, whatever. And, you know, it has been very defeating to feel like we don't have anywhere to go to.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Nobody is supporting us because, again, one side just wants to rob us from our resources and steal a narrative to,

[Marianne]

like, push their own agenda, but then

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

the other side is, like, completely denying

[Marianne]

or calling us, like, all these horrible things to also steal our narrative. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So it has been really frustrating and scary and isolating. Yeah, it has been a lot. To the point where I think.

[Marianne]

I mean, do I even have a place in the world of nobody wants to hear my voice? So it has been very difficult, right?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very disheartening. But then, yeah, like, that's why I. I told you about the baseball thing recently. It was kind of like a positive thing. Like, because one of the good things about that game is that people were finally, like, getting to know us and

[Marianne]

how we're actually good people.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And that was kind of like a

[Marianne]

pick me up after how horrible life has been since January 3rd. So.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Like, people obviously, like, undervalue sport, or I think they do. I wrote a book about sport and anti fascism, so I'm kind of predisposed to this position.

[James]

But, like, these moments of joy are really important.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

And, like, God knows the world tries to rob us of joy at the moment, so we should embrace them and enjoy them and not feel like we are, like, obliged to be sad because of all the sadness in our worlds.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James]

I think something you said there struck

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

home with me are two things. I guess let's address the first one.

[James]

It is fundamentally a colonial impulse to

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

steal someone's narrative and assume that they're incapable of speaking for themselves. So you must speak for them.

[Marianne]

Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Like, that is something that I have seen, not just now, but for years, about Venezuela. Right.

[James]

Like, it must have been really frustrating

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

to see this kind of campus tendency to. To. To literally steal, like, the voice of Venezuelan people and speak on their behalf.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

That's nothing new, though.

[Marianne]

I mean, I remember when I was

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

in college, it was kind of the same.

[Marianne]

Like, there were. I think it was like, 2017, there were some protests and. And people were saying all sorts of things and.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I remember losing a lot of

[Marianne]

my friends in college because of that. Because I was saying, like, you know, it's more complicated than that.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, you know, actually people do dislike this person for this, this, and this reason.

[Marianne]

And, yeah, I remember losing a lot

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

of friends because of that. Maybe not a mental breakdown, because it was just like, a lot.

[Marianne]

Right.

[James]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

I remember even at one point, I went to, like, a cafe. It was one of these, like, cafes where people write on the walls. And it said, like, Venezuelans.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I was just like, what a dystopia am I living in?

[Marianne]

And I also used to work at

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

a front desk, and this guy somehow found out that I was Venezuelan and he started saying, like, oh, Maduro's the best, like, whatever. And my boss had to come in

[Marianne]

and, like, take the guy away because he was just being really, like, rowdy. Right. So, yeah, it's calm.

[James]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

In fact, like, when we introduce ourselves,

[Marianne]

like, we don't say that we're Venezuelan immediately just because it can be dangerous at times. So.

[James]

Yeah, especially now we have this combination of, like, we've discussed this, but, like, on the.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

On the right, Venezuelan people are all perceived to be members of trend Aragua now and then. Yeah. It's that or you line up behind the regime. And even when those two things, like, they're not as distinct as people, you know, sometimes in their imagination see them, that they're also not as joined. It's other people in their imagination see them. Yeah. It doesn't give you a place to express your identity.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

You just have to fit into someone else's box.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James]

Something else you said really struck me. Like, there seems to be. And again, it's like, it's not distinct

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

from the colonial impulse. Right. I think about the uplift civilized and Christianized, or the white man's burden, or these, like, notions of people who were subject to colonial violence being lesser than or incapable of.

[James]

And, like, one of the things I see is, like, the idea that Venezuelan

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

people are not aware of United States imperialism.

[James]

I lived with Chileans in.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

In Caracas in. In, like, the first decade of this century. Right.

[James]

Like, people were very extremely aware.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Like, I live with people who have been tortured because of. Because of United States imperialism. They played me Victor Hara records and then told me how they chopped his hands off. Right. Like, yeah, you're a person on the left. You have an understanding of the world and world politics and you've studied and traveled.

[James]

But, like, there is a cultural understanding of this.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Right. Which does not require one to attend university.

[James]

Can you explain how people. Because people are weighing. On the one hand, we have this Maduro regime, which is killing people, which

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

is imprisoning people, and which is acting as a fundamental constraint on our autonomy.

[James]

And on the other hand, we have the Americans dropping bombs, and we know

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

what the Americans have done.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

To this part of the world.

[James]

If you could just talk on that

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

a little bit, explain how people live with that balance.

[Marianne]

I think it's a combination of multiple things. So first, I mean, for many years the government horribly mismanaged the country and then blamed the US for everything that went wrong. I mean, there were moments in which we knew and had proof that these problems were coming directly from the regime's actions. And yet so many times they simply

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

lied about it and said that it

[Marianne]

was the US's fault to the point where many of us were, you know, simply desensitized to the idea of US intervention. It's the case of the boy who

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

cried a wolf, but in this case

[Marianne]

it was the dictator who cried intervention.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

Second of all, I mean, for many years now, every cent made from our country's resources have gone everywhere except to the people. Our resources have been going to other country, let's say Russia and China, just to name a couple. And yet we, the Venezuelan people, have not seen a single cent of that.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So at this point, we're used to

[Marianne]

being exploited and we're used to being cheated. So when people in the US say hey, the US only wants to steal your oil, or hey, like they're going to exploit your country, it's ignoring the fact that we have already been living through that very same thing for decades. And many believe that our material reality won't be affected just because now it's someone else stealing our resources. If anything, people are willing to see if these new guys, AKA the US might do things differently now. Whether that's right or not, what it really speaks to, I think is, I guess my final point, which is that people are desperate. Every time a leftist says, oh, your life is about to get so much worse or so bad or whatever, they say that without knowing how bad things have already gotten. I mean, I remember going to school during like the worst parts of the famine and seeing like a skeletal dead body lying on the street. Like that's an image I still have nightmares with. And I mean, for a time I remember seeing someone I knew dying or being killed every single week. The abuse and the torture we've endured at the hands of this regime. I mean, anyone can Google like what's

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

going on in places like Elicoide or

[Marianne]

La Tumba or any of the other torture centers in the country. I mean, people experience mock and real

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

executions, getting electrocuted like by their genitals,

[Marianne]

rape, being forced to eat feces, and a whole list of medieval sounding torture methods. And you know, people are truly desperate for a change, any change. And the fact is that the global campus left, or as me and my friends have begun calling them, the imperial left, has done nothing for us. They've given us no sustainable solution and if anything have completely sided with our oppressors. So, you know, if Trump comes and says, I recognize this regime is bad and I'm going to do something about it, people are going to take that. And this is what is so frustrating to me is that many of these leftists will go ahead and then criticize Venezuelans for siding with their enemies. But what they don't see is that they have sided with ours and at the end all that does is make life even harder for us. We've gotten so desperate that we've run directly into the hands of vultures because they're the only hands that we've been given. I personally don't love what the US is doing to our country, but I mean, I understand why many Venezuelans have reacted the way that they have, and this is how I can best explain it to those who don't understand it.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

It's sad. I know it's very sad.

[Marianne]

And it's hard for people who haven't

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

lived through this to wrap their heads

[Marianne]

around this level of despair. But it's the simple truth, and it's a hard truth that I think many leftists need to hear and understand. And I say that as someone who is also saddened by this because I want to see a more left leaning future, especially for my country. But I don't think it can happen if people don't start accepting realities like these.

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[James]

The other thing that gets collapsed a

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

lot I think is a Venezuelan opposition, right?

[James]

Like it is always amusing to see

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

like I myself, I'm not a communist, right?

[James]

I'm not, not, not a state communist anyway. And I've seen like the Venezuelan Communist

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Party and the Communist Youth of Venezuela,

[James]

like they'll put out a thing being like we support opposition and then you'll see people being like oh no, we're communists.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

But like like American communists who don't speak Spanish, like like are engaging with them.

[James]

It's, it's very funny to see that like in their mind all opposition in

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Venezuela is of the right wing. Like MCM tendency.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Right.

[James]

Like there are many very valid reasons

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

why people on the left would be opposed to what's happening. Does it feel particularly isolating to be of the left and at the same time have this constant assumption that to be in opposition you have to be of the right?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

It feels isolating when it comes to

[Marianne]

dealing with non Venezuelans, but when it comes to dealing with Venezuelans, not really mean pretty much all of my friends,

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I mean as a queer artist, like most of my friends are also like pretty left leaning.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

You have different kinds of people on the left. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But, but yeah, like when it comes

[Marianne]

to my Venezuelan friends, it is not isolating at all.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Marianne]

Because precisely we already know what's going on.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

You know, we know that the, that the opposition isn't just like a right wing thing.

[Marianne]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

It doesn't feel isolating because we know the, the political diversity that exists.

[Marianne]

Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And so you just kind of have to find your tribe and it exists. Again, we're a country where people have

[Marianne]

all different sorts of opinions. And so, you know, between my Venezuelan

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

friends it seems pretty. What's the opposite of isolating?

[James]

Yeah, like inclusive, I guess.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah. But when it dealing with my non Venezuelan friends, that's when it gets isolating

[Marianne]

because there's just not an understanding. Like they just don't seem to understand no matter how much I try to break it down to them or how

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

much I try to explain to them I have been successful and many of my good friends who are like leftists, most of them are anarchists.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But when I do try to explain it to them, they do seem to

[Marianne]

understand because they know who I am and, and they know that I'm not like, you know, bullshitting them. But.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, but again that doesn't mean, like

[Marianne]

I told you earlier, I have lost many, many friends and you know, have had to unfollow many people. Like I don't feel welcome in all

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

like leftists or even queer spaces sometimes

[Marianne]

because of what I think, which is,

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

you know, a free Venezuela isn't just

[Marianne]

free from imperialism, but also free from dictatorship. It's free from both.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Shouldn't be controversial, but that is something that most of my Venezuelan friends like, they completely agree because similar to me, but my non Venezuelan friends, or ex

[Marianne]

friends, as I should say, they just don't understand that at all.

[James]

So it's always interesting.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Like, you know, I spent a good deal of time with Venezuelan people coming to the United States or who have recently arrived in the United States.

[James]

And it's funny to see how people

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

represent their operation to Maduro, like, because at first I'll be like, oh, this guy's an American. So they're like, oh, be great. The Americans came to liberate us. And like, you know, what a wonderful country.

[James]

And then, like, once people begin to

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

feel comfortable and safe with you and you talk more, everybody knows we don't have it all figured out either. Everybody knows the history. Right. Like, and then people, yes, of course, have a wide and varied range of things that they would love to see in Venezuela, but they are united behind seeing an end to dictatorship and.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

And state violence. Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

No, and I think that's honestly kind of like a beautiful thing where, you know, in spite of our differences, because I may have differences with other people who may be moderates or right wing

[Marianne]

or whatever, but we've all united against

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

this, like, bigger evil. And I think that's something that I

[Marianne]

wish actually the US could learn about. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Putting their differences aside to actually, like,

[Marianne]

tackle that bigger evil.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I think that's something the US should learn about us.

[Marianne]

How we've been able to do that, how, you know, we can all say, you know, we may not agree on how certain things are done, but we all agree on what needs to be done, which is.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

You know, like getting rid of this regime. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's actually pretty, pretty cool.

[Marianne]

And although it's not always easy because again, like, you have, like in any country, we have all sorts of different opinions going on.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

It is really nice to see everyone

[Marianne]

united for one thing and one reason, and that's really the important thing. So. So, you know, I, I wish other countries could maybe learn a little bit about that too.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[James]

Like, the left in this country could

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

learn a lot from the way that, like. Yeah. A vast variety of left organizations in Venezuela have managed to unite with organizations that are more centrist or straight up on the right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

To achieve at least one goal with the understanding that they still retain disagreement, sort of profound about other things.

[Marianne]

Exactly.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

That's something we can learn a lot from.

[James]

And like, I'm always kind of in

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

awe of the capacity for solidarity that I see especially for Venezuelan people.

[James]

Like, and I think it comes from, in part, like, decades of dictatorship and,

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

and of hardship more generally. Right. But like, of the continuous resolve that I've seen to get through it together rather than for each person to get their own and sort of leave the rest behind.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

It's remarkable, genuinely, like, seeing again, like a lot of my experience, I have not been in. In caracas for probably 15 years, maybe longer, is seeing people in the diaspora

[James]

and migrants, but, like, people who have

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

grown so used to the state, ironically failing to provide the basic necessities of life that they've got used to just obtaining them for and from each other.

[James]

Like, even if those people are not

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

anarchists, they're probably doing more mutual aid than people who spend a lot of their time being anarchists on the Internet.

[James]

Yeah, like, that's a beautiful thing that

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

we should be in awe of, rather than invalidating, as so many people on the left are.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I think that's something that really starts with our own crisis. Because I remember at the height of the famine, right?

[Marianne]

I mean, I'm speaking maybe like 2013, 14, around time, because by 2017, when there was like, another big, like, famine going on, I was not in Venezuela, actually. But I remember when that was happening, like, it was very common.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, hey, so in my backyard we had plantain and our neighbor had avocado. So you.

[Marianne]

We would, like, exchange things. Somebody needed anything.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, if somebody's grandmother needed, like, this

[Marianne]

medication that can only be found in, like, this one place in Caracas.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, but then I didn't have gas, but maybe, like, my cousin had gas so that we could drive to Caracas. Like, so that's kind of how it worked back there.

[Marianne]

Like, we had that solidarity towards each other.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I think, obviously, if we go

[Marianne]

abroad, we're going to continue showing that same. Yeah, like, that same attitude, because it's just, like, part of who we are, I guess.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah. It just seems to be very much, like, part of the character of community. It's even like, when I was there, you know, a decade before that, not quite a decade anyway, sometime before that, like, it's funny, I went to this place where they're having, like, a revolution which was extremely grounded in state power and came out realizing that the state is not the vehicle for human liberation and other people are. I just.

[James]

I just find this.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

This impulse on the left to invalidate and, like, therefore refuse to learn from Venezuelan people so frustrating. It's like a mild phrase, but, like,

[James]

what can people do? Right? Like, we're in a situation now where we have, like, Maduro without Maduro. We have Delsey doing, like, tweeting how much he likes Donald Trump all the time.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

We are at the worst of all possible outcomes, really.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

We still have this apparatus for repression,

[James]

but at the same time, the US

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

is basically engaged in a colonial relationship of extraction of resources and anything else it wants from Venezuela.

[James]

Like, how can people better be in

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

solidarity instead of, like, trying to force you all into one box or another box.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James]

If we assume most of our audience

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

is in Europe or the United States. Right. And they.

[James]

Yeah, there haven't been big, like, we're

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

in solidarity with the Venezuelan anarchists or even the Venezuelan socialists or communists who are opposed to Maduro or to Delsey.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Now, for non Venezuelans, I think the key thing is to speak about this

[Marianne]

from a complete perspective, a whole perspective, because what's the issue? And I can tell you personally, sometimes

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I see, I don't know, like, anti

[Marianne]

imperialists, you know, us get out of Venezuela protest. And I would love to join because

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I want the US out of my country. But then I see them with pro Maduro signs or just like, free Maduro

[Marianne]

or, you know, talking positively about the regime, and then I'm like, actually, I'm not going to participate in that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So, you know, you're actively excluding Venezuelan

[Marianne]

voices by doing these kinds of unilateral thing. And what do I mean by unilateral? So I understand that many, let's say Western non Venezuelans are speaking and looking at things from their own perspective, which

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

is Trump is a bad guy.

[Marianne]

He's not going to do anything positive. We know the history of the US and so they are, from their own perspective, they see what their bad guy is doing. Right, Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

From the Venezuelan perspective, we also see what our bad guy is doing.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

We're speaking up about this particular bad guy more than what we are about Trump, the other bad guy.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So it's kind of like we have

[Marianne]

two different perspectives here, and both are looking at their own. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And so the issue here is that

[Marianne]

those two perspectives are not combined. Right. So I would say the first thing you need to understand is that, you know, I understand why you're looking at things from your own perspective, but you also have to include Venezuelan perspectives in your activism in order for them to actually be productive towards the Venezuelan people. Right. Because when you say, you know, free Maduro and you know, us get out of Venezuela, you're still not addressing the necessities of the Venezuelan people.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Right.

[Marianne]

Which is we need to get out of the regime. Sure.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like one of those necessities is the US Getting the fuck out of there.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But you're not addressing the main issue

[Marianne]

that has plagued us for the past 30 years. Right, right. So when you're not doing that, and

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

that's the dangerous thing about, you know,

[Marianne]

conversations like that, of Venezuela or Cuba or even Iran as well. When you speak about things from one specific perspective, when you omit one side, you're making it seem like the other side is better. When it should be abundantly clear that both the US And Maduro need to be out in order for Venezuela to actually be free. Right. So I think it's key, it is very necessary that when we have these like free Venezuela protests, it's not just about the US but it's also protesting the Maduro regime.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Marianne]

Because otherwise what you're going to do is you're going to exclude many people who also want the US to back off from your own protests.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Right.

[Marianne]

And if, you know, it's. It gets even worse because I've seen Venezuelan activists actually getting, you know, pushed out of conversations on Venezuela because they're talking about, you know, what I'm telling you right now. Yeah, right. So they're talking about what the regime

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

has done and maybe focusing on the

[Marianne]

regime while also mentioning that the US

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

should like, you know, they know US

[Marianne]

history, but they're focusing on the Venezuelan perspective because as a Venezuelan, that's what you want to bring into the conversation.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, right. Like non Venezuelans can go ahead and out of that, you know, anti imperialist

[Marianne]

part of the conversation or, you know, effective to the conversation, but they do need to make space for the Venezuelans who also need to speak out of the regime. Right. So it needs to be a combination of both. And in your advocacy you have to include both at the same time always. Because again, if you don't speak about one, then you're sort of like portraying

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

the other one is like the good side.

[Marianne]

Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And what that does is that that

[Marianne]

continues to isolate Venezuelans. I mean, including myself.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like I said, I can't even go to a free Venezuela protest because I'm never going to be, you know, next

[Marianne]

to somebody chanting Free Maduro.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marianne]

So that's like the key thing that the leftists, like non Venezuelan leftists need to understand.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, I know.

[James]

I think a lot about how people on the left for some reason, and this is particularly odd with the fact

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

that we have lived through a genocide in Gaza for two and a half

[James]

years, that people seem to only be

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

able to understand solidarity with states and not with people.

[James]

And we have the Palestinians, Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

A stateless nation.

[James]

People seem to understand that there to an extent.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Right. Albeit that for many people, Palestinian statehood is a solution to the problem.

[James]

It just seems to be such a

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

condemnation of the organizing on much of

[James]

the left that people cannot I mean,

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

this is my general frustration with the world. Well, one of them.

[James]

They can't think outside of the state model. They cannot conceive of an alternative that

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

does not already exist.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Even though there are movements outside of the state.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Like the Kurdish struggle in Northeast Syria, for example.

[James]

It's one. But, like, I don't know, like, we should be able to dream of a

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

better world or a beautiful life. And it.

[James]

It seems like so many people have

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

forgotten that that's what being on the left is about.

[James]

And they identify as revolutionaries, but they're extremely reactionary.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

In their politics and their goals. Like.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James]

It must be so strange to come from.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

I don't know how old you were. When do you remember? Like, very early Chavismo.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I remember parts of it is like a memory. So I was born in 97, so early Chavismo was like a fever dream. I remember, you know, during, like, the Paro Petrolero and all that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I would, like, go outside of, like, my apartments, like, or, like, go to my window.

[Marianne]

Like, we used to live in a

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

building, and we would, like, take out

[Marianne]

pots and, like, casseroles and start banging.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Everyone. And that was like, my favorite part of the day because I, as a

[Marianne]

kid, didn't really understand that it was

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

a protest, but I loved banging on things, so I remember that. I remember, like, my parents not being

[Marianne]

able to find certain things that maybe in the past they could find.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I remember, like, at some points, like,

[Marianne]

not being able to go to school

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

because, like, there was something happening. Just like, you're really Venezuelan thing. But I remember thinking, I hope there's another coup so that I don't have

[Marianne]

to go to school tomorrow.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The kids here with snow days.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But that's kind of like what I remember of early Chavismo.

[Marianne]

I also remember as well, sort of seeing the division.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And that, to me is like the

[Marianne]

biggest, most impactful memory. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

The division that existed.

[Marianne]

So on my family, I remember just for context, like. Yeah, part of my family.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Half of my family is like, middle class.

[Marianne]

And the other half of my family was working class, like, you know, Brown working class from the coast. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So shout out to Marty. So, you know, it was like different realities, different necessities.

[Marianne]

I remember both sides of the family arguing a lot. Like, there was a lot of division. Very similar to what's going on in the US Right now in terms of division. Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marianne]

Where there were, like, heated arguments. People did not speak to each other. People hated each other because of, you know, like, Part of my family was Chavista. The other part was opposition or whatever. Like, it was.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

That was one of the biggest things

[Marianne]

that I remember was, like, half of my family hating the other half of my family because they had different backgrounds and different political stances. So. So, yeah, that was a big thing

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

as well as the fanaticism.

[Marianne]

Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

That existed especially.

[James]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I mean, I remember my grandmother had, like, a poster of Chavez and like.

[Marianne]

Like a figurines, and she dyed her hair red because she supported the regime, whatever. So.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So that's one of the things I

[Marianne]

remember the most, is my family, both sides, like, hating each other because of their. And.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And it's something that I'm seeing in the US right now a lot.

[Marianne]

And.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And it. I think it. It's operating in a very similar fashion.

[James]

Yeah, it does seem to be. And, like, did your family reconcile at

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

some point or do you still have people who are, like, die hard?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

No. So, for example, my grandmother that I told you about.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

She says that she's still Chavista, but she's not Madurist.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah, I've heard this stunt, too. Yeah, yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Which is like, you know, she supports, like, what the revolution initially meant, but,

[Marianne]

like, she doesn't support Maduro. Right.

[James]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

Or, for example, like, her husband, my grandfather, he's just like, you know, this revolution was all bullshit. We thought that this was going to be good, but they ended up being absolute traitors. Like, you know, they ended up not

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

doing what they promised to do.

[Marianne]

Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So it was all just disappointment. And the other side of my family is just like, chill. I don't know, like, they were just never Chavista. So that's kind of like strong environmentalists. So that's why they kind of hated

[Marianne]

Chavez, because they were also doing some crazy shit in the Amazons.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So it's kind of like they do

[Marianne]

all get along much better. Right. So that's good.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, I guess, because, like, one side realized, oh, actually this guy was not that good.

[Marianne]

Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But that particular side of my family, that was Chavista.

[Marianne]

That's how they think right now, where

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

it's like, either it was disappointment or

[Marianne]

that perspective of, you know, I support Chavez, but not Maduro.

[James]

I've heard that from a lot of people.

[Marianne]

Right.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Like, Hugo Chavez wanted to make Venezuela better for us.

[James]

And, like, if we just look at the shit he said, yeah, I want people to have enough to eat. I want them to have education, I

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

want them to be able to go to the hospital.

[James]

I want them to have safe houses. Like, I Want all those things too. They didn't get those things. But like, I've heard a lot of people say that. Like, well, yeah, we, we wanted it

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

too, so we supported it, but it wasn't. We didn't get that. We got prisons and cops.

[Marianne]

Exactly.

[James]

And like, that stance seems to be entirely absent in any discussion of Venezuela, which is. It's so common. Like, you just don't hear the, like that. It's not like a left critique from other left stances, it's a left critique from the same place that Chavismo claimed to come from. And it's completely absent in our discourse. And like, I can't.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Well, it's because we don't talk to people from Venezuela. But yeah, yes, it's extremely frustrating.

[James]

And I think, like, there's a lot that the United States can learn because we're already seeing large numbers of people

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

being like, oh, yeah, I voted for Trump 1, 2, 3 times, and now something has alienated them. Right? Whether it's mass deportations, whether it's a war with Iran, whether it's the economy being shit, whatever it is.

[James]

Like, we need to learn how to allow people to change their minds or

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

like, to get better.

[James]

Like, the Venezuelan opposition wouldn't be what

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

it was if they said anybody who supported Chavez at any point can off. We don't want you. Right. Like, yeah, it's. It wouldn't work, it wouldn't function.

[James]

And I think if we would listen

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

to people, there's so much we could learn from that. But we seem so locked in on talking down to them instead that.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, I mean, exactly. That's what I mean by, like, it reminds me of that, like division, you

[Marianne]

know, it's almost like Raven. I, like, people are foaming at the mouth.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, that's kind of like the level of division that I remember growing up in. And to be honest, a lot of what's going on in the US is eerily similar to what I grew up seeing. I think both Trump and Chavez are

[Marianne]

very similar kinds of people. And, you know, I used to live

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

in the us Now I live in Europe.

[Marianne]

But that's one of the reasons I decided to leave because I saw many

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

similarities to what happened in my country and I decided to just skedaddle as soon as I could because I sort of knew where it was all going, but I knew where it was all going because of what I already lived through.

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[Marianne]

There was actually one more thing that I'm thinking about it that I didn't

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

get a chance but you Mentioned Palestine with. I think it's. It's really interesting because the school that

[Marianne]

I went to, actually Venezuela has a really big population of Middle Eastern people, among them Palestinians. There was a Palestinian club in my hometown.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I remember during.

[Marianne]

Was it like 2012, 2014? Again, this was years ago, but 2012, maybe 2014, at some point there were protests, Las, if you know them.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

During Las Guarimbas, there were protests for Venezuela, whatever.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I remember that I. I had

[Marianne]

many Palestinian, like, Palestinian Venezuelan classmates, and

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

they were protesting both. Right. So they had Palestinian flags and they had Venezuelan flags, and they were protesting for both peoples. So. Yeah, you know, that's like an example whenever people say, like, try to divide and, you know, say like, oh, like the Maduro is like, pro Palestine, whatever.

[Marianne]

I think of my friends in school where they were like, no, actually we're

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Palestinian Venezuelans, and we don't like what's going on in either place. So. Because we do have a very big Middle Eastern population, again, many Palestinians, many

[Marianne]

Lebanese people who are not unaware of what has been going on in the Middle East. Right. So that's also something to be added to the conversation is, you know, when

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

we talk about these things, like, they're not isolated, and precisely because we're not

[Marianne]

isolated, that's why we should, like you

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

said, like, be more in support of

[Marianne]

the people rather than the states, Right?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, I wanted to bring up, like,

[Marianne]

that little bit of, like, that little

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

memory that I had, because I just

[Marianne]

remember the image of it of my friends doing that.

[James]

So, yeah, it's very similar in a

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

sense, I guess, to, like, I think a lot about how the Assad regime used Palestinian people. Right. Like, it would constantly talk about fucking solidarity with Palestine, and it had all these tanks and all these guns and

[James]

all these planes and bombs, and it

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

turned them all on its own people.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

It didn't use its state power to liberate Palestine. It would have been destroyed by the IDF if it did, I imagine. But it used its state power to kill its own people.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James]

It is so frustrating that we.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

We saw that happen. And the world still allows people to

[James]

tokenize the Palestinian people.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Right. And to. To use them as a shield, definitely. Against the oppression of their own people.

[James]

I think a lot of people will be thinking or listening and being like, oh, well, I haven't really heard from

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Venezuelan voices, or they might not know any people from Venezuela.

[James]

Where can people do more to listen

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

if they want to, as they approach this issue in so much as people are still approaching it because half the US Media has forgotten about Venezuela already.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marianne]

There's a lot going on for sure.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But I want to say, like, this

[Marianne]

might be a little bit annoying, but learn Spanish, Right. If you're going to advocate for a specific group of people, at least learn the language, you know, so that you actually know what people are talking about. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Not everybody speaks English.

[Marianne]

Not everybody's going to speak your language. So if you're actually going to take advocacy for Venezuela seriously, then you should learn the language straight up so that you.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

It's easier for you to get into

[Marianne]

these conversations, see what local activists are saying, see what the news are saying, like, see even what our leaders are saying. Right. So I think that's one of the first things, I think another thing, I mean, there are some, like, English language Instagram accounts or like post things.

[James]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

But I think the biggest thing is to be for the people. And what do I mean by that?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Everyone wants to claim that they are

[Marianne]

for the people, but very few people actually are for the people. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So what happens is they might hear

[Marianne]

like, I don't know, a Venezuelan person

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

saying, oh, thank you, usa for taking out Maduro.

[Marianne]

Do whatever you want, whatever. They might hear, like the typical magazolanos, you know.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

And you might hear all of these, like, perspectives that are really coming from, not a place of them being fascists or whatever, but coming from a trauma.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So I think that if you want

[Marianne]

to inform yourself, you need to develop the. The ability to think critically about what's going on and be able to understand who are these people and why do they have this perspective. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So they have this perspective not because

[Marianne]

they were slave owners back in Venezuela, not because they're white. Some of them are not white. It's not because they are like pro fascism or they necessarily love the US Right. But it's coming from a place of trauma. And why do they have that trauma? Well, they have that trauma because all of the abuses that were committed, like to the Venezuelan people were on behalf of this quote, unquote, socialism. Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So, yeah, they were committed in the

[Marianne]

name of the left, whatever.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So that's why all of a sudden

[Marianne]

they claim to be very right wing. Although if you speak to them, you might ask them, well, what do you want to see in your country? And you're like, well, this doesn't sound very pro capitalism to me, but I guess the ability to understand these people

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

instead of calling them like CIA agents, fascist, like they're stupid, they're idiots, don't listen to them. The Diaspora is just full of, like, Mossad agents, whatever you want to call them.

[Marianne]

Right.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, I've seen every.

[Marianne]

In the book, like, any excuse in the book, like, to not listen to these people.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

But I think the solution is to listen to these people and try to understand and again, think critically. Okay, well, I understand that maybe what

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

they are saying is not necessarily great

[Marianne]

because I also understand that the U.S. you know, has done this, this and this and that they are coming from a place of trauma, that perhaps they do know what. The US Is history.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But again, they're just desperate. But let's get to the bottom of this.

[Marianne]

What is their root concern?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

The crisis in Venezuela.

[Marianne]

Right. So why do they have all of these, like, crazy ideas?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Why are they so crazy? So, because of everything that they've endured in Venezuela. So don't try to focus on, like,

[Marianne]

the shallow part of it all. Like, try to go to the deeper end, and that way you will truly understand what is going on. Right. Not to ignore these people or just, like, dismiss them as A, B or C, like, CIA, fascist, whatever. They're not fascists. They're just people who are traumatized. And it's really important for you to understand their trauma in order to address the issues that actually concern them and to actually have communication with these people and include them in your advocacy. See?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And who knows? Maybe you'll be able to convert some to your side, too. Right. Which I think that's been one of the most critical mistakes that many people on the left have made is that, you know, we have all these Venezuelans

[Marianne]

who, again, claim to be right wing.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I'll get to a second why

[Marianne]

I say they claim to be. Yeah, but they claim to be right wing.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And again, it's not just because of

[Marianne]

the Maduro and Chavez regime. It's not just because all of the abuses committed to them were in the name of socialism, but it is also because the international left has reacted so negatively towards our cause that, you know, many Venezuelans decided to say, hey, you know what? I'm right wing or I'm moderate, or, you know what? I love the US now because all the people who are anti west are pro the regime that is killing my people.

[James]

Right, right.

[Marianne]

So what's that?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

What that is doing is like, actually

[Marianne]

pushing these people even further. When you call, you know, these, like,

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

magasolanos, because they are. When you call them, like, fascists or whatever or CIA, you're just pushing them even further. And at the end, that sucks, like, for us, because then we're going to

[Marianne]

be the ones who are going to be politically confused.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And God knows that's going to lead

[Marianne]

us to some crazy places. Right?

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

So I think the first thing is

[Marianne]

actually having empathy towards people and using your ability to think critically and hearing people out who maybe you were told not to listen to and thinking, okay, well, I don't agree with what you're saying on the surface, but I understand what your root concern is. Therefore, I think we should talk about this. And I can understand that in order to inform myself what is truly happening to these people that are making them believe these crazy things like Trump is gave us. Right.

[James]

Yeah. I think that's like really important to

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

remember that you might come across some of Venezuelan who might be advocating for or someone from Iran or someone from one of these other places who might be like, advocating for intervention.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James]

And like, it's really important not to

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

be like, okay, this person goes in the maga box for me.

[James]

Because, like, there are Venezuelan people who

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

are going to go in that box. Right. But like, we have a good deal of people who, like, they're obviously not going to be opposed to migration if they themselves are migrants.

[Marianne]

Exactly.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

That doesn't always apply. There's a famous video of the Turkish guy complaining about migrants as he enters the United States, like, oh, yeah, I

[Marianne]

mean, of course, but I get what you're trying to say.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah.

[James]

Like there are people who, whose views

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

on, like, the world and the way it should be might not be that different from yours. And like, we only find out by engaging with each other in good faith and like, as people, not as tropes.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Which I think is a huge part of the problem.

[James]

I do think the language barrier is an issue. So many people on the left want

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

to talk about places but not talk to the people and can't.

[Marianne]

Yeah.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

And then we only see a small subset of discourse translated into English.

[Marianne]

Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what I

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

mean by like, you know, everyone wants

[Marianne]

to be for the people, but very few people actually are because being for the people takes a lot of effort because you need to learn languages, you

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

need to visit places, you need to

[Marianne]

talk to people who you might, on the surface disagree with. You might have to think about what they tell you in order to come to a conclusion yourself about what's actually going on and how you can actually support these people while not compromising your own beliefs and your own knowledge and experiences. Right. So that takes a lot of work. So that's what I meant by that. Like, very few for the people in that sense, where they engage and actually go and, and try to talk to us.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

And I think that's the best way

[Marianne]

of being informed of any issue is just talking to the people. But it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what solidarity is like. It's putting in the work to take care of each other.

[Marianne]

Exactly.

[James]

It's been a failure of the non

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

campus left that we have not done more, we have not reached out to more people in Venezuela, that we've not used our platforms or we've not shared their voices, that we haven't done more to push back on this idea that the only options for Venezuela are neoliberal, neo imperialism, or maybe neoliberalism isn't what we're doing anymore, but American imperialism or like this anti imperialism of idiots.

[James]

Is there anything you'd like to plug?

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Do you like people to find you on the Internet or some other stuff you'd like to direct people to? Maybe they can call you a Mossad or CIA or whatever?

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Yeah, you can find me on my Instagram account. It's E M dot A R I N. Okay, so just like my name deconstructed.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

I can send it to you later.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Trying to think of like what else to say, but I mean, yeah, like

[Marianne]

going back a little bit, I just

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

wanted to clarify this because I brought

[Marianne]

up a few times, but what I was saying, you know, like looking at these magasolanos and what I mean by like they are quote unquote, right. They're not actually right wing. Like if you speak to them, and

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

there's a really good video that this

[Marianne]

guy made, but it's in Spanish talking about this. But what I mean is many people who are magasolanos, you ask them what do you want to see in Venezuela? And what they want is affordable housing, affordable health care, clean water, proper environmental policies. They don't want any more abuses committed to the indigenous communities, particularly those in the Arcominero de Loinoco. So you ask these people what they

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

want and this is what they want, Right? So when they just say that they're right wing, they say that they're right wing simply because they are traumatized from,

[Marianne]

you know, this apparently socialist regime, which was anything but. And people on the left sort of, you know, just supporting that regime and isolating them and treating them like absolute crap. So they're traumatized by both of those things and that's why they claim to be in this position but if you actually talk to them, that is not the case. Yeah, keep that in mind.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Because it's funny to me when many

[Marianne]

people say, oh, you guys just believe propaganda. That's why you're pro Trump and that's why you're right wing, because you consumed the CIA propaganda. You guys are blinded by propaganda, when in reality, what that doing is, that

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

is taking away the accountability that many

[Marianne]

on the left should maybe, you know, maybe think about.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Because it hasn't just been CIA propaganda. Like, it's also just leftists acting like. Like that's something that has also pushed many Venezuelans away from the left.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, 100%.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

It's not just the CIA spreading propaganda. It's also that the left has acted

[Marianne]

horribly with the Venezuelans, and that has also pushed people away. And I think if we're able to solve that issue, if I think of

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

the left is able to see Venezuelans

[Marianne]

as human beings and to have a different approach, such as, you know, with, you know, what we've talked about earlier, I think we're going to be able to have a better conversation and have a better relationship between these two communities and actually get somewhere productive.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

But I just wanted to bring that

[Marianne]

up because I am so tired of seeing people saying it's all CIA propaganda and not really thinking, well, actually, we have all also done some pretty bad things and that's why these people kind of have taken a dislike to us. So, yeah, I think. I think that's pretty much it.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

Like, in conclusion, just hear, hear us out. We're human and we're not the perfect victims.

[Marianne]

We.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

We're not a monolith.

[Marianne]

We. We're human.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Marianne]

So we should be spoken to as humans and thought about as humans, not as some chess piece in this political game. Just include us into the conversation, I think is the most important thing anyone listening to this should take away.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, I think that's a really good place to end. Thank you so much for sharing some of that time with us.

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

No, thank you so much for giving me the space to talk. I mean, it's very necessary, as you

[Marianne]

might imagine, for our voices that to be heard and be put out there. Because I'm lucky enough to be multilingual, I try to do my best and speak in other languages so other people understand what's going on in our minds and in our communities. So I am very grateful that you're

[Guest (Venezuelan Artist/Activist)]

able to have me here and to actually listen. It's not something many people do, so

[Marianne]

I really do value it.

[James' Interviewer/Co-host]

Thank you. That's great.

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It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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[Marianne]

Guaranteed human.