Jamie (2:05)

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Danielle Fishel (2:09)

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Jamie (2:55)

Call Zone Media.

James (2:58)

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's just me, James, today, and I'm joined by Jamie, who is a librarian, and we are here to discuss the pending federal cuts on library funding and, I guess, years of attacks on library funding. So welcome to the show, Jamie. Thanks for joining us.

Jamie (3:17)

Hi, thanks for having me.

James (3:19)

Yeah, this is really great for me because I have been trying to find a librarian for a very long time to talk to us on the podcast. I understand that lots of people have been really concerned that we covered this, but also very afraid for their jobs, which is a rough position to be in. So thank you for coming on. I thought we'd start with, like, there was an executive order on 14 March, I think it was called, something like furthered something, the federal bureaucracy, cutting, slashing, diminishing, whatever, you know, I don't really care. One of the outcomes of this was, I believe, the Trump administration moving towards a complete closure of imls. Is that right?

Jamie (3:57)

So it depends upon how much Doge and Trump and company are going to listen to Congress, because Congress has already funded IMLs, which is the Institute of Museum and Library Services, for this year. So that money already exists, it's already been allocated. And so in theory, they should be good for at least a year. And then next year when the budget comes up again, it should be up to Congress, because Congress created this institution and Congress funds it. But the executive order and the commentary on it does say that they would like to dissolve it kind of as soon as possible, definitely next year. So it's really up in the air about how fast things would move, what exactly would happen if it would be this year, if it would be next year, whether anyone's going to listen to Congress.

James (4:47)

Yeah, we will find out, I guess. So can you explain for listeners who aren't familiar what IMLS is and what it does?

Jamie (4:56)

Yeah, so it's, as I said, the Institute of Museum and Library Services. And so basically they are allocated money by Congress every year, and then they hand it out to states, especially then, who kind of break it down into other grants. They give grants to states and libraries and institutions for things that museums and libraries do. So that includes things like on the museum side maybe putting together programming or doing big Digitization projects. I used to work at an institution where we had a grant that did a lot of digitization of historic documents. And on the library side, they do all sorts of stuff, especially for public libraries. They end up funding things like summer reading programs, equipment, especially for Internet access, all the stuff related to job training and those services that libraries offer. And interlibrary loan is a big one, so that people can access materials that their library doesn't hold, but it's held by other libraries and rural libraries and tribal libraries especially, really, really benefit from this. Every single state and territory in the country gets these funds.

James (6:02)

Okay. Yeah. I was wondering about who funded interlibrary loans. So they're the ones who facilitate the transporting of the books?

Jamie (6:09)

Yeah. Well, you know, depending upon your library, some libraries will fund it from their operations budget. But if, you know, especially for small rural or public libraries where that might be very expensive, that is one thing that these grants go to is interlibrary loan.

James (6:21)

Okay. Yeah. So there are lots of very important services. And what would it mean if we didn't have that IMLS budget at all? Like, what would it mean, especially for, like you said, those kind of libraries that are financially, I guess, more marginalized in tribal libraries and rural areas and stuff.

Jamie (6:38)

So I first want to mention that the entire budget of IMLs for 2024 was something like $266 million. We're not talking about huge sums of money in terms of the federal government. It comes out to about 75% per person in the country. So we're not going to be saving on our taxes if this goes away. But that money makes a really big difference. So even smaller states that maybe have a million people in it might see a couple million dollars of these grants per year. And so what that would mean is that the things that maybe not all of them, but most of the things that these grants cover would not be there. So that means that there wouldn't be summer reading in some places. That means that they wouldn't be able to buy the hotspots that they lend out to people who don't have Internet at home. That means that maybe there wouldn't be the class that teaches your grandma how to not get caught in a phishing scam. So all sorts of things. Those things just wouldn't be there because there's probably not, especially in red states, other funds that are going to come to cover that.

James (7:42)

Yeah, I think I was looking online and the budget is something like. It's something like 0.003% of the federal budget is going to. It's trivial.

Jamie (7:51)

It's so small. Right.

James (7:52)

Yeah.

Jamie (7:53)

You could take the, I don't know, the gold toilets away from the Navy and cover it in a deck. Right. It's so small, and yet it has this enormous outsized impact. You know, the statistics say that every dollar spent on. On IMLS returns $2 to the economy. So it's actually, if you're going to measure it that way, highly beneficial, especially to these more marginalized areas.

James (8:16)

Yeah, maybe we should talk about that, because I think if people, like, maybe they just don't happen to go to the library, maybe they don't, you know, realize they have services they need, or maybe they don't live in the US the library is not just a place where you can go and borrow the books. Right. Can you explain some of the services that libraries provide? You mentioned some, but they really help people.

Jamie (8:36)

Yeah. So for better or for worse, public libraries in the United States have become the social safety net of last resort because they already exist almost everywhere. And it's so hard to get. Not right now, but even in the past couple decades, other social programs started in many parts of the US that things kind of just get lumped into the library. So now you get your tax forms there. Maybe they have a social worker on staff. It's the place that homeless folks can sit when it's snowing. So that kind of is like a little bit aside from what we're talking about right here. But I really do want to point out that public libraries have become the social safety net in many, many places. So that aside, you know, offerings of. Aside from books and other media, including ebooks, audiobooks, movies in lots of formats, magazines, newspapers, there are tons of classes about all sorts of things, especially technology classes. It's a place that a lot of people, it's their only reliable Internet access. So, you know, in 2025, you can't do mostly anything without the Internet. You can't get a job without the Internet. You can't maybe pay your bills without the Internet. So that's a reliable place that people who don't have Internet for various reasons, maybe they live so far out in the country that just doesn't go there unless you have satellite. Right. Even now where. Or maybe you can't afford it or whatever, or there's one computer in your house and there's six kids and someone has to do their homework, so what's everyone else going to do? So then the computers themselves, and then also the other thing that imls Also does is those grants will sometimes purchase research databases. So if people, kids especially are trying to do their homework again like children's and teens programming is another thing between homework help, social things, clubs. So in a lot of places where there's not much going on, it's one of the places where young people can go in the afternoon or on the weekend and not be getting in trouble either because they're making trouble or the adults think they are because they're somewhere productive to be. There's somewhere that's inside supervised. There's something to do. And so that's the kind of stuff we talk about in normal times when we're trying to fight for like weekend service or later hours. But if we're looking at it in the lens of IMLs, the building might be open maybe because maybe they have the foundational operationals budget. But then there won't be these programs, there won't be these resources. There'll just be a bunch of books on the shelves.

James (10:57)

Yeah, it's like, I don't know, I'm amazed how many of my friends and neighbors don't understand how my celebrity does. Like I'm forever like San Diego. Our housing prices are ridiculous and no one seems to want them to not be ridiculous. Well, lots of us do but we don't get to choose. And so like we have a large in house population. I'm always like helping my own house neighbors go to the library like giving them a ride or whatever so they can. Yeah. Like you say, access Internet services, Apply for benefits.

Jamie (11:25)

Yeah. Or just like sit and read the paper and know what's going on in the world.

James (11:28)

Yeah. And like not get harassed by the cops just for existing.

Jamie (11:31)

Right.

James (11:32)

Which is the rest of their existence here. Sadly. Yeah. These are massively important services. I think most people have no one. There's not really a big like fuck the libraries movement, you know like I.

Jamie (11:41)

Think people, I mean these days.

James (11:44)

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I guess it's the whole like people should only read stories if they.

Jamie (11:50)

Conform to certain things for liberty and whatnot.

James (11:52)

Yeah, fuck those people.

Jamie (11:55)

Absolutely fuck those people.

James (11:57)

Talking of fuck those people, we unfortunately have to pivot to ads. So you know, here are some unfortunate advertisements.

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James (15:44)

All right, we're back talking of people I dislike. Actually, San Diego Mayor Todd Gloria, who was elected in 2020 and then re elected shamefully this year, which is very disappointing. One of his first actions was to propose a budget which increased the funding to the police. Surprise. And decrease the funding to the libraries. That would lead to them closing for an extra day. Right. And this is our progressive mayor who has been anything but. This isn't a particularly uncommon scenario. Right. I've spoken since then to librarians around the country who for the last at least half decade have faced funding cuts. Can you explain why doesn't the state see value in these services? I mean, I don't want you to speak for, you know, like the Democrats defunding the libraries to give the cops more money, but can you explain why there has been this ongoing assault on library budgets?

Jamie (16:40)

So, you know, you're talking about the last decade to half decade. I think we can really trace it back much Farther, at least 30 years to the Clinton administration. Actually. I want to talk about the Democrats, but even the roots farther back than that because we have a neoliberal problem. Right. So it's basically the idea that all activity should generate obvious immediate monetary profit, that everything should be run by a business, that everything should be subject to the market, quote, unquote. And so that's where we are with libraries, is that even though I can sit here and say every dollar that the imls spends generates $2 of economic activity, that somehow isn't even good enough. Because when the powers that be look at libraries, they just see money being flushed down the toilet and that's the only way they can measure anything. So if you look at it and you're just saying, well, this is a place we spend money. This doesn't create money. This doesn't make more money happen. The idea that everything should be run by a business and everything is should be subject to market logics, that would say, well, if we're going to subject everything to market logics, libraries have no value because we're only measuring it in can this make the balance sheet? Can this make number go up?

James (17:51)

Yeah.

Jamie (17:52)

And even though libraries do make number go up, it's not obvious. You can't make it obvious there's no direct line between what libraries do and number go up, even though there actually is, for example, with IMLs. So starting during the Clinton administration, when the federal government changed and how the federal government worked changed very much under the guise of increasing service quality, what they actually did was lay off a quarter million workers and turn everything into contract work instead of regular labor. And that, I think filtered down from the federal level into states and municipalities, so that those levels of government too also started to look at how they ran their government things. And in many places, public libraries are arms of local government, that those too should also be run like a business and be subject to market logics. And therefore number does not go up. We don't value this. And that's basically it, is that it's hard now that we've had 30 years of overt neoliberalism in our government system and a couple decades more of less obvious versions of it, to make government, which is now being run like a business, even in the best of times, value things that aren't valued strictly monetarily. So there's no cultural value. And even if the monetary value isn't extremely obvious, it somehow doesn't count.

James (19:20)

Yeah, I guess it kind of. I used to lecture. I still do lecture at university, actually, starting again next month. But we pivoted towards everything has to be STEM in education generally, because that'll.

Jamie (19:33)

Make money or something.

James (19:34)

Yeah. I don't know why. Because Bill Gates make the line go up and yeah, we lost so much that has not just intangible value, like you say, but actual tangible value. Very, very obvious value. But nonetheless, like you say, it's not easy to put on a graph, so it disappears.

Jamie (19:50)

Right. And then, you know, even though cops also don't make money in a direct sense, somehow we can still fund that. So it really shows that, like in the case of where you are, that the carceral solution is now the only solution we have.

James (20:03)

Yeah.

Jamie (20:04)

And when we sit here as abolitionists and we say, well, let's get rid of all that stuff, and people say, well, what are you going to do instead? Our answer is, often it would be so different that it wouldn't be necessary. So we'd have prevention of the entire situation. That's one of the things that libraries offer, is prevention of the entire situation, making vast swaths of the carceral state unnecessary. So there's a conscious choice there, especially when money is being taken out of the balance sheets of a city government from the libraries and put into the cops. Of this carceral choice of saying we'd rather everyone in life is shit so we can throw them in jail than have everyone have a nice life. And no one would have to go to jail.

James (20:39)

Yeah. And then they can come read a book instead and yeah, it would be nice. It reminds me of one of the big projects of the anarchists in Spain in the 1930s was to create popular education centers which included libraries. Right. They funded these entirely. They were not funded by the state. The state was not interested in making libraries in 1920s, 1930s in Spain. And they funded them from popular subscription and from People's Union Jews and they built these ateneos which are now really beautiful places. One of the places I did my PhD in Barcelona and I wonder if there is. I guess it's very hard for us to conceive of a library without the state. In the United States, rich people putting little libraries in their middle class neighborhoods is not the same thing as much as they'd like to think it is. Your little phone box library is not replacing these services. Is there a model for recreating this in a way that isn't reliant on the state, which seems increasingly hostile to it?

Jamie (21:38)

I think there's a couple models and it depends upon how far down the revolution you go. So the example you gave of Spain, we have contemporary with that and slightly more recent versions of that in the U.S. so the workman's circle and now the Worker's Circle, they funded really wonderful cultural programs, including libraries. Unions often had libraries, especially back when they used to have more buildings, like my union, I'm part of my union and aside from just like being where I work, we don't necessarily have a building per se. So those things have always existed, especially in like the workman circle, in ethnic communities who were trying to preserve a culture. And that's something that fit into 20th century capitalism. And so if we go farther than the revolution. I read a really great pamphlet recently from the 70s actually, that was from the UK and it kind of discussed libraries, you know, if we make it through the revolution a little bit as being operated as under a syndicalist model where workers and patrons, which is what we call them now, there wouldn't be quite that split then would be able to govern and run these libraries. And there was a really great diagram. So there's definitely been ideas for a long time about what this could look like.

James (22:52)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess in the collectivized economy of revolutionary Barcelona, libraries still existed, Athenaeus existed. And I'M sure it was along a syndicalist model because everything was so yeah, I think that's a good thing for people to look towards. I want to stop and take one more break and then I want to talk about what people can do to protect libraries.

Jamie (23:15)

Foreign.

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James (26:53)

Alright, we are back. So currently like, I mean this is like a funding cliff for the library system, right? I suppose it's hard to say but like how long would it take before people stop seeing these services if doge was to start doging tomorrow?

Jamie (27:07)

I honestly can't tell. You know, I think that people depend really doesn't. It's hard to say now. Right. Because we do have the funding there. It's just will it actually happen? Will the thing happen that has already been allocated? I think we have a little bit of time, but I would expect if that congressional oomph isn't expressed that especially when summer reading rolls around, we'll really start to see it. Because that's something that a lot of people depend on to keep their kids occupied during the summer.

James (27:37)

Yeah.

Jamie (27:38)

And especially out, you know, in, in red states and rural areas. It's going to be very much like the I never thought the leopards were going to eat my face.

James (27:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Jamie (27:47)

Kind of situation.

James (27:49)

Which is sad like because it's someone's kid who doesn't get to go to the library very often.

Jamie (27:53)

Right, right, right. That sucks. You know, because it's gonna be a lot of kids especially without those resources.

James (28:02)

Yeah. I think about like how like I wouldn't have survived my undergraduate without libraries. All my grad school books are super expensive, especially academic books. And like I relied very heavily on interlibrary loan.

Jamie (28:16)

Yeah. And this is at the university level to be sure. Where books are very expensive.

James (28:20)

Yeah.

Jamie (28:20)

But at the school library level, you know, this is exactly why this is happening is because there is this ongoing narrative from the last few decades where people especially like queer kids Say that the library saved their lives. Young people of color saying, like, this is the only place I could see myself in culture by reading these books. So of course this is happening because that, you know, they want to take that away.

James (28:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's a place where people can kind of exist without that. Yeah. So let's talk about how can people engage to protect their libraries? What can they do? What are some action items they can take?

Jamie (28:57)

I, unfortunately don't have great news, I don't think, because of the way this is working. And it is so much about just raw brute power that no one at the federal government or even state governments for the most part, seems to be able to counter. It's just not something they can conceive of because they already are doing things that supposedly shouldn't be allowed. We've already had the congressional funding. This should have a congressional. This is passed by Congress, and yet an executive order and Elon Musk can undo it. Right. If things were working, this wouldn't be happening.

James (29:27)

Right.

Jamie (29:28)

So. So we are really kind of down. Down the line a little bit in what we can do and how effective it's going to be. That said, there are things we can do. A lot of them are the. The things that liberals usually do, which is like, yeah, calling your senator over and over and over again every day, and your representatives and your state. Your state government, too, to make sure that your state government is paying attention to what they're going to lose. There are certainly things one can sign on to for major library organizations. The ALA has been writing a lot, and less formal organizations than that. I think one thing that we can always be doing, not just in this situation, but if you want to be supporting libraries, one of the best things and easiest things you can do is go get a library card, if you don't already have one, and use your damn library. There's probably something there that you want.

James (30:17)

Yeah.

Jamie (30:18)

And that actually really does help. Because libraries, whether it's with something like imls or whether it's grants from foundations or local funders, their local government are better able to make their argument for why they should be given money if they have good statistics to say we had 10% more readers this year, the number of books we loan this year is higher than it's ever been. People are coming to our events in droves. That kind of success breeds success. If they can show that to potential funders, they're more likely to get money. So don't even bother to read the book. Just check the book. Out, keep it for a week and give it back. If you don't have time to read it, make those numbers go up.

James (30:59)

Yeah. And you can even, let's say you're not inclined to go to the library for whatever reason and you don't like going out or worried about COVID or something. You can do most of this online, right? If you have Libby, you can borrow ebooks.

Jamie (31:14)

You can borrow ebooks and audiobooks from Libby. Some libraries have streaming movies. A lot of libraries have still either all online or hybrid events that you can watch rather than having to go to the event at the library. You know, the one thing about, about some of those streaming services and Libby that I will caution about is that your data is less secure, if that's something you're concerned about than it would be borrowing paper books.

James (31:36)

Okay, that's good to know.

Jamie (31:37)

Because most libraries, even in the kind of tech dystopian future we live in, do a decent job or at least try to be good about your borrowing data when you borrow hard copies. But because things like Libby and the streaming services are third party integrations, those collect some amount of use data, so it's absolutely great to use those. But I would caution that if you are a person who has a very high threat model and you want to be careful about your data, go for the paper.

James (32:09)

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of nicer. Nicer experience to read a paper book as well. So there's that. What about like, if people, I know lots of people who are librarians, listen, say, email me, like, is there a way that they can organize? Is the way that people are organizing either to prevent this or like as a way of harm reduction? Right, like as a way of reducing the damage that the state can do to people's access to learning.

Jamie (32:33)

Yeah. So there are a few more radical organizations that I think are worth paying attention to. My favorite is Library Freedom Project. They're really wonderful and more willing to say the thing without bullshit, the thing that I would obviously urge every worker to do this, but if your workplace is not unionized, start working on that. That will always give you more power. So you should start trying to organize your workplace.

James (33:00)

Yeah, definitely. Hopefully there's still time for people to do that.

Jamie (33:06)

Who knows where that's going? But you can at least try. It's still legal now.

James (33:10)

Yeah, right. Why not start? And regardless of what happens, we're stronger in this together than we are apart. And unions have done a lot to prevent fascism in the past.

Jamie (33:20)

And similarly, there are depending upon what state you live in. There might be a state library organization that is active and that would be just a good way to make connections with other libraries near you and their librarians. And maybe if you do lose some of your funding, you can put your heads together and use each other's resources and have joint programming and things like that.

James (33:41)

That makes sense. Are people attempting. So I know some of the stuff IMLs have is online archives. Are people attempting to somehow download that in order to preserve it in the event that it goes away?

Jamie (33:54)

I don't know that that's really.

James (33:56)

Is that not what's at threat?

Jamie (33:58)

That's not really what we. Yeah, I think that there are other kind of data rescue projects with the federal government that have better data than that. IMLS doesn't have that much data, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that.

James (34:09)

Okay, so it's more like along the workplace organizing side.

Jamie (34:14)

Yeah. It's definitely like trying to figure out to make how to make your. And the libraries around you keep going and offering the things to your communities that they've been offering.

James (34:24)

Yeah, definitely. It would be pretty tragic. Like, there's a library not so far from my house. Like, I can ride my bike to it and I go there all the time, and it would be really tragic to be without that.

Jamie (34:32)

Yeah.

James (34:33)

So, yeah. Please continue to organize for your libraries. Is there anything else that you'd like to plug or suggest people? It's a pretty bleak time generally, and I think a lot of us take refuge, especially in reading, actually. It's a way you can escape terrible things. Is there anything else you'd like to kind of suggest for people as we dive deeper into fascism every day at.

Jamie (34:55)

The moment, I think in libraries and elsewhere, it's just being able to offer a counter narrative. Like not buying into the idea that the library is a money hole, you know?

James (35:09)

Yeah.

Jamie (35:10)

It can only be valued monetarily. So when you hear that, maybe start going to your library's board meetings, and when you hear those kinds of things said, get online for the comments and offer a different narrative. And you can do that all over your life in different. In different ways. When you hear that narrative that is monetary and neoliberal and harmful, offer a different one.

James (35:32)

Yeah, I think that's really good. Like, it's so sad to think that we should have to quantify the value of everything monetarily, but especially something like a library. Like, so many people have had such positive engagements with them, which have nothing to do with the cash. Next, they're sort of generating revenue and that's what makes them valuable and what makes them special sometimes. So yeah, hopefully people can advocate for that. How would you find your library's board meeting if you wanted to? Like, if you your library.

Jamie (36:00)

If you have a public library near you, they should have a website and the website should have an events page that includes board meetings. Hopefully other information about your library's board as well. And if you can't find it, maybe call at the library and ask. They'll probably just tell you they're really good at information there.

James (36:17)

Yeah. Yeah, that is the thing that they do. All right, well, thank you so much for joining us, Jason. Jimmy, that was great. It was really, really helpful.

Jamie (36:23)

Thanks for having me. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

Danielle Fishel (36:29)

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media.

Jamie (36:31)

Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us.

Danielle Fishel (36:35)

Out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

Jamie (36:37)

Or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Danielle Fishel (36:39)

You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly in Episode Descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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